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Digital UK on Freeview HD channel numbers: "we can not do that, sorry"

In a recent consultation, Digital UK asked which channel numbers they would like the Freeview HD channels to appear on. The answer was as easy as one, two and three...

In a recent consultation, Digital UK asked which channel number
published on UK Free TV

As I am sure you will know, if you have purchased yourself a Freeview HD box or TV, the actual HD channels are all sat together at the end of the guide, starting on channel 101.

This compares somewhat favourably to the seemingly random numbers provided on some other digital platforms.



However, when the public were asked "where would you like to find HD channels", the answer came back a resounding "on the normal channel numbers please".

So, is Digital UK going to do this? No.

The problem is that the existing Freeview HD services are not directly replacements for the standard definition channels, as I covered recently in I've got an HD TV ... why can't we have high definition channels in place?.

BBC One HD currently existing in three versions that are suitable for "substitution", the versions for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

BBC Two HD is currently the English version, so can be substituted only in England.

ITV has 17 standard definition versions, only four of which are in HD: Granada, Central West, Meridian East and London. Outside these areas in England, no substitution could be made.

STV has 4 standard definition variants, but one HD service: Central West, so only Glasgow could be switched automatically.

UTV is OK; it has one SD version and one HD version.

Channel 4 has 6 SD versions, but one HD version: the London (advertisements) service.

Digital UK will reconsider the introduction of substitution late 2014 or early 2015.

For more, see Statement on proposals for the Freeview HD genre and on amendments to Digital UK's LCN Policy Published: 7 August 2013.



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Comments
Thursday, 8 August 2013
nick
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

12:24 PM

thank god for NHK world the only programs that makes any sense

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nick's 38 posts GB flag
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David
sentiment_satisfiedGold

12:40 PM

We have a very bad system here in the UK, seems only Sky have control over the box product and system.

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David's 306 posts GB flag
Briantist
sentiment_very_satisfiedOwner

12:47 PM

David: that's vertical integration for you!

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Briantist's 38,929 posts GB flag
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Neil Bell
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

2:58 PM

My older Sony Bravia does rearrange the Freeview channel order on a prompted retune but my newer one and my Panasonic boxes don't so I don't have a big problem with the order & I'm certainly not tempted to pay Rupert Murdoch to sort it for me! Being retired I just waste 10 mins reordering them. I sometimes switch to a regional variant of the local news (on Sat) when BBC 1 HD goes off line briefly in the morning (interesting to see what is happening in Glasgow, Belfast or Cardiff) but otherwise I keep BBC 1 London SD next to BBC 1 HD on the newer Sony Bravia and the Panasonic STBs so that I can switch back & forth easily. I have all the BBC channels first followed by all the ITV channels followed by the Channel 4 & 5 variants with the rest in alphabetical order and finally the national regional variants of the BBC & ITV so I can find my way round & I leave the shopping rubbish where it ends up. I do find that I watch much more BBC and less commercial TV than I did before so I probably see more German & Czech adverts (on Sat) than British ones these days and I probably miss out sometimes but you can't watch everything can you! By the way Nick I agree that the quality of the pictures on NHK HD are pretty good but I can't say I've been divinely inspired by their programmes. Still whatever turns you on!

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Neil Bell's 106 posts GB flag
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David
sentiment_satisfiedGold

3:08 PM

I think the thing about NHK is that if you have a SD box its the same number.

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David's 306 posts GB flag
nick
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

3:10 PM

Neil i just find their programmes to be of a bygone age with a touch of innocence

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nick's 38 posts GB flag
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Neil Bell
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

3:56 PM

Nick I should be more patient & open minded. Maybe I need to nominate 1 channel each week and spend more time watching it at the expense of one of my more usual channels. I had a 10 minute look just now at NHK World HD and it was an interesting programme about geikos and their training. Mind you I'm not certain how this furthers the argument about where SD & HD versions of channels should be juxtaposed.

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Neil Bell's 106 posts GB flag
nick
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

4:13 PM

back on topic the HD channels are best served by being close to bbc 1 etc and not in the hundred bracket
a bit of common sense i feel

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nick's 38 posts GB flag
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Stoddy75
5:50 PM
Whitley Bay

I'm glad my FreeviewHD box allows channel swapping. All my HD channels are now located on 1, 2, 3 and 4 instead of 101, 102, 103 and 104.

Shame that there aren't more regional variations with the HD channels.

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Stoddy75's 2 posts GB flag
Stoddy75's: mapS's Freeview map terrainS's terrain plot wavesS's frequency data S's Freeview Detailed Coverage
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Neil Bell
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

6:47 PM

I agree with Nick but its not that simple. If you have a full HD TV/STB and you have a simulcast like BBC 2 SD & HD then you don't need the SD channel but if you can't receive HD broadcasts then its the SD version you need. In London you need both BBC 1 HD and BBC 1 London SD but in Ulster their HD & SD versions of BBC 1 are simulcast so you only need one. At the moment there are only 4 HD channels plus regional variations on Freeview/Freesat so keeping both HD & SD channels alongside each other is acceptable but next year there will be more. A good example for the future in the UK is that on my Sat receiver I have about 60 distinct German channels of which about 18 are HD (They too have a lot of regional variations within each Land so the actual numbers are much higher than this). I simply store one variety or flavour of each station in my German favourites - HD if its available - SD if not - sorted in alpha order so I can find them and it is just about manageable.

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Neil Bell's 106 posts GB flag
Mark A.
sentiment_satisfiedGold

8:09 PM
Haywards Heath

Digital UK will reconsider the introduction of substitution late 2014 or early 2015.

Wished subtitles and text/red button was on HD as well as SD channels.
Will we need to upgrade our boxes if they add them?

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Mark A.'s 374 posts GB flag
Mark's: mapM's Freeview map terrainM's terrain plot wavesM's frequency data M's Freeview Detailed Coverage
Briantist
sentiment_very_satisfiedOwner

8:47 PM

Mark A.: There's subtitles on Freeview HD, I had them on the YouView box just yesterday.

They are much nicer looking than on SD channels too.

Red button text service is a capacity issue: BBC One HD carries an Red Button link to get to Red Button HD: Press Red/Press Blue.

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Briantist's 38,929 posts GB flag
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Ian from notts
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

9:33 PM
Nottingham

what will happen on non HD TV's n freeview boxes if BBC1 HD moves to 1 an so forth

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Ian from notts's 253 posts GB flag
Ian's: mapI's Freeview map terrainI's terrain plot wavesI's frequency data I's Freeview Detailed Coverage
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David
sentiment_satisfiedGold

9:56 PM

"what will happen on non HD TV's n freeview boxes if BBC1 HD moves to 1 an so forth"
Riots in the streets?

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David's 306 posts GB flag
woodface
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

9:58 PM

Stoddy75 I'd be interested to know which Freeview HD box lets you rearrange channels like that.

Our lovely Sony TVs do, but none of our (many) Freeview DVRs.

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woodface's 39 posts GB flag
Friday, 9 August 2013
P
PJH
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

1:53 AM

Moving Channel 4 from 140 to 230 on Sky didn't make any sense whatsoever. Completely baffling.

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PJH's 75 posts GB flag
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Bob Huckin
10:14 AM

I can't see any issues with the HD channel numbering on Freeview. Given than most people watch the main terrestrial channels, what's difficult about using 101, 102, 103 and 104 for the majority of the time. I'm in Nottingham and if I tune to BBC 1 SD for the regional news, a prompt appears on screen at the end of the bulletin asking me to press the "OK" button to watch in HD.
As and when more HD channels appear on Freeview, I would guess that they'll continue on 105, 106 and so on, thus creating a block of HD channels on consecutive numbers. I find it very straightforward.

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Bob Huckin's 9 posts GB flag
Saturday, 10 August 2013
R
Rob
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

6:45 AM
Reading

I find the subtitles on HD is smaller text than SD..... why? i have 32" tv HD subs looks like reading words on a 14" telly.... are they trying to say i need 60" tv set? lol

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Rob's 171 posts GB flag
Rob's: mapR's Freeview map terrainR's terrain plot wavesR's frequency data R's Freeview Detailed Coverage
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David
sentiment_satisfiedGold

9:11 AM

Rob the other strange thing is different picture ratios SD to HD.
BBC2 the other day was showing the film "The French Line" on Freesat 102 SD was full screen on 109 HD was 4x3 with black bands on each side. TV set is set to Auto Aspect ratio.

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David's 306 posts GB flag
Sunday, 11 August 2013
I
Ian from notts
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

1:32 PM
Nottingham

David- cheers for getting the sarcasm ha ha

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Ian from notts's 253 posts GB flag
Ian's: mapI's Freeview map terrainI's terrain plot wavesI's frequency data I's Freeview Detailed Coverage
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Ian from notts
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

1:37 PM
Nottingham

Rob, David- the general idea of HD is for the best picture quality, To get that an then stretch it so it fits the screen defeats the object?
Also, You can put HD on as often as you wish but, If it was filmed in SD (or black n white)It will be screened in SD (or black n white)

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Ian from notts's 253 posts GB flag
Ian's: mapI's Freeview map terrainI's terrain plot wavesI's frequency data I's Freeview Detailed Coverage
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David
sentiment_satisfiedGold

2:41 PM

Ian not understanding, movie film is HD quality I would have thought.

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David's 306 posts GB flag
Monday, 12 August 2013
I
Ian from notts
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

7:29 AM
Nottingham

David- I don't know the film "the French line" or how old it is but if it wasn't in widescreen for TV showing then HD should revert it to 4/3 scope. BBC2 SD should do the same if the TV picture settings are set at "auto" rather than 16/9

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Ian from notts's 253 posts GB flag
Ian's: mapI's Freeview map terrainI's terrain plot wavesI's frequency data I's Freeview Detailed Coverage
Brian Wright
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

7:39 AM

Ian ,not quite.

Any quality transmitted on the HD system will be better quality than the transmitted poor bit rate on Freeview SD. The motion smoothness and the edges when panning shots are present is so much better especially human faces.
Older Film & VT programs recorded the last 20 years which are classified as SD when it leaves the studio will look great when transmitted on HD but when viewed on Freeview SD large screen TV quite poor.

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Brian Wright's 77 posts GB flag
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Drew
9:12 PM
Bangor

Can BT sports chns 58/59 be transmitted with a youview box without BT infinity,but with copper wired broadband. Thanks

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Drew's 20 posts GB flag
Drew's: mapD's Freeview map terrainD's terrain plot wavesD's frequency data D's Freeview Detailed Coverage
Tuesday, 13 August 2013
M
Mike Dimmick
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

1:46 PM

Drew: No. BT are only offering it to Infinity subscribers on YouView. Infinity still uses copper cables from the roadside cabinet to the home, but the fibre connection is extended from the phone exchange to the roadside cabinet. This means that the run of copper is much shorter, so much higher speeds can be offered.

The channels are being broadcast over-the-air for old BT Vision boxes, for those who aren't in an Infinity-enabled area. Those boxes have a slot for a decoder card that decrypts the transmissions. YouView deliberately left the decoder card slot out of the specifications - the intention is that over-the-top pay services will all be delivered over the Internet.

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Mike Dimmick's 2,486 posts GB flag
Friday, 16 August 2013
S
Stoddy75
5:26 PM
Whitley Bay

Woodface: Sorry for the delay been on nights.

I have a Panasonic DMR-HW100 Freeview+HD box.

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Stoddy75's 2 posts GB flag
Stoddy75's: mapS's Freeview map terrainS's terrain plot wavesS's frequency data S's Freeview Detailed Coverage
Wednesday, 6 November 2013
M
Martin H
11:08 PM

Sorry I'm late in finding this thread, going back to David's post regarding the film "The French Line", according to IMDB this film was released in a ratio of 1.66:1 or, in figures we might use for TV these days, 15:9.

Freeview SD despite being nominally Widescreen format is in fact a 4:3 (or 12:9) ratio picture stretched to 16:9 (rectangular pixels), the Freeview system was designed to accomplish automatic switching of ratios within your TV or set-top box in response to a flag in the digital transmission nominating the signal as either 4:3 or 16:9 as appropriate.
The HD specification, however, is a native 16:9 format (with square pixels) and only ever intended to be shown on a 16:9 screen, any source material not in 16:9 would need to have curtain bars (usually black) added before transmission.
The end result might be subtly different pictures being transmitted.

I've had a look using a BBC internal resource and compared the two transmissions made on 8/8/2013 (SD and HD) and I have to say both appeared to be transmitted in 4:3 ratio.

One possible explanation for the difference David saw might be how David's SD receiver was set to switch aspect ratios on that day such as to overscan a 4:3 picture, the HD receiver would simply show what was transmitted on the HD channel.

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Martin H's 2 posts GB flag
Friday, 20 February 2015
D
David
5:57 PM
Preston

I have just bought a Freeview HD receiver which I have connected to my computer monitor.My monitor is full HD 1080p and I can now receive all the Freeview HD channels.All well and good. But can anyone tell me why I cannot watch, for instance, Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid which is currently showing on Film4, in HD? It is advertised in my TV guide as being braodcast in HD yet my receiver is only showing SD.
Forgive me if this is a naive question as I am totally new to this HD/SD business.

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David's 1 post GB flag
David's: mapD's Freeview map terrainD's terrain plot wavesD's frequency data D's Freeview Detailed Coverage
Saturday, 21 February 2015
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

7:18 PM

David: there could be a couple of reasons:

1) The box os not connected to your monitor via an HDMI cable. To be honest, I can't think how else it could be attached, so I think we can discountt that one.

2) The box has missed the mux, or even the correct transmitter. Because you put your postcode in (which is extremely useful!) we can see that Haslingden and Winter Hill are almost at the same distance, and almost on the same bearing. But the former starts at Channel 26, and the latter at Channel 50. If you box is like mine, it starts at the low numbers and works upwards - hence hitting Haslingden first. And Haslingden does not transmit Film 4 in HD...

The other thing could be thats its not a HD box (so a make/ model number would help), but I suspect your simply tuned into the wrong transmitter. Try taking out the aerial lead for the first 30% of the scan (David Lindsay's trick) and see if you just get Winter Hill. Its a bit hit and miss, but it should eventually work. Once tuned in, never retune!

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
J
jb38
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

9:03 PM

David : Due to a lack of capacity on the relatively new COM7 HD transmitter Film4 (LCN15) is presently transmitted in SD on PSB2, if you wish to view it in HD then you have to select its +1 (Film4+1) service on LCN45 which is broadcast on the PSB3 HD transmitter, as used by such as ITV HD / BBC3 HD etc.

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jb38's 7,179 posts GB flag
Sunday, 22 February 2015
J
jb38
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:52 PM

David : Re: your query on Film4 HD. Please disregard that said in my reply made yesterday @ 9.03PM, as further checking has revealed that Film4 HD (whether +1 or not) is not available as yet on the Freeview platform, and even although +1 is being transmitted on an HD transmitter its only being broadcast on SD.

This being the case, there is no real advantage of using Film4's +1 service on (45) over the normal SD transmission on (15), that is unless having a specific reason for wishing to view Film4 on its +1 service.

Apologies if any confusion was caused by this error.

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jb38's 7,179 posts GB flag

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