Read this: The BBC will not appeal Cliff Richard case
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Hello and welcome to the media Show podcast in the last few hours the BBC has announced.
It will not appeal the judgement of the High Court that the corporations coverage of a police raid on Sir Cliff Richard violated his privacy.
Where does this leave journalism and indeed the senior figures at the BBC who's errors led to this expensive failure that sell subject at the top of the show but will also be roaming through America where new TV a 1 billion dollar venture Ventura adventure.
There's a bit of both is there trying to outsmart Netflix and Wear tomorrow more than 100 American newspapers are expected to launch an unprecedented counterblast to the president who is habitually denigrated them as enemies of the people in Australia today Daniel got her senior analyst at analysis and Jim Waterson the media editor at the Guardian welcome to you both and I don't get straight into our top stories BBC has as they say today decided not to fight a verdict in the High Court last month we said it is breached the privacy of Sir Cliff Richard the case concerned a raid by sassy.
Watch a police on the singer's home in August 2014 the BBC's coverage which is notoriously included deployment of a helicopter was found to be legally unjustified and in his ruling Mr Justice Mann raise a number of questions about the Freedom of journalists in particular where the suspects could be named before being charged yet today the BBC is decided based on that legal advice not to appeal further but here's what Fran Unsworth the director of news and current affairs said outside the High Court last month the judge has also made clear that even if the very naming of Sir Cliff would have been unlawful.
This creates a significant shift against press freedom this means police investigations and searches of people's homes could go unreported and unscrew tonight.
It will put decision-making about naming individuals in the hands of the police over the public's right to know we don't believe this is compatible with a liberty and Press freedoms for all of these reasons there is an important principle at stake that is why the BBC is looking at an appeal and some of you will remember the BBC's former director general Mark Thompson came on this ratio on the day of the judgement is what he said at the time.
I think it's a really troubling ruling today.
There's no question.
I think it in retrospect that some of the ways which the story was covered at the time.
They had a cotton rest were over the top and wrong but the judges if I understood correctly says that even today even in principle to name Cliff Richard was unlawful and I think that's really troubling.
I think if it if it survives appeal is potentially a real chilling of the ability of the press to report things which in my view are in the public interest well.
Well and you.
Today's BBC is decided against appealing instead director-general Tony Hall has written to the attorney general asking him to consider a review of the law so that politicians and not judges make decisions about the proper limits of privacy even though it's not actually clear that the attorney general thinks this Falls within his remit David Jordan the director of Ella smokes in the Stooges I say that for merging Watson David Jordan easy director of editorial policy at the BBC and he's with me out in the studio David what is the BBC buckled well we've taken some time to look in depth and at length at what the implications of going to appeal would be because as you've heard from Fran Unsworth Andrew Mark Thompson we were very concerned and remain concerned about the principle that was established in this judgement and we would very much like to be not to appeal the principal but all the advice that we're getting is that you have to take the entire judgement to appeal not simply the bits at you want to and that the prospects of 6.
And getting what we wanted out of it were very limited and therefore reluctantly with concluded that it would not be a good the extra expense to the licence fee paid to go further in this case and fight it further even though we'd be very much still disagree with the extension of the law that the judgement are enabled.
How much will the appeal of crossed I don't know how much it will cost but you know as I know already that the total cost of the case so far to the BBC has been 1.9 million pounds and that's a lot of money is had a record and I've no idea was it to record labels off of other things but maybe to lover there is a lot of money with the previous massive expenditure.
I think it'd be with the public would be interested to record for and the figure is a large figure and the important point is that going to law in this country cost a lot of money.
I'm going to appeal when you would have no certainty of success would cost of further amount of money and it's in that context that we.
Decision that we have shouldn't you actually just checked with the attorney general at this Falls within the remit before Tony who wrote a letter to him.
I think it's surprising that the person who is charged with advising the government on the law thinks that advising the government law has got nothing to do with him and the previous attorney general had had indicated at previous stages that he had made comments about this so it's a surprise, but just to be sure we've also send a letter to the dcms onto the Home Office someone must be somebody who's responsible for this is an issue which is which should not be set by judges making decisions of this sword and should be should be debated and agreed by the government by parliament and that's the point the Essential point the we're making it's not the question the major point is not who decides but that it should be the government and parliament and politician since I rather than judges actually have any evidence that writing to the attorney general will make any sudden Impact at all and we've written a letter.
The attorney general V attorney-general through one of its comms officer who can be patient officer said I'm not sure this Falls within the remit that's a pretty weird.
Look for a director general to take us know.
I think what we doing is racing a very important question which I think the whole Media will be interested in because this is a dip this has implications not just for the BBC but for everybody who's in is interested and reporting important cases, which are under police investigation and so the whole Media will take an interest in whether or not the government will want to review This aspect of the law and make some determination about it rather than having the law inched forward or changed in the way that the judgement of Justice man has changed you know as well as I do that a huge amount of legal opinion before you add cider Fighters case said that BBC World News how and why did the BBC managed to find pretty much the only door in the land he thought fighting his case was worthwhile.
I think you must been talking to different people from the.
What a lawyer is not a Jealous photos and they all said this is a bad thing to fight and
The BBC 41.9 million lbs later you've lost a lot of journalists and Edmund leader writers were urging us to appeal the decision rather than saying that it was mad Foster fight that I've got skin in the game got skin in the game because they want to bring information to the attention of the public in exactly the same way as the BBC does that seems to be to be a noble ambition and it's also important that in the sorts of cases, they were talking about particularly sexual abuse case not this wear Revealing the name of somebody under Suspicion has in the past lead to further victims coming forward and making allegations that these sorts think should be able to be probably tonight this case is cost 1.9 million pounds of pot of money so far.
There's a cost hearing coming up so it could go over 2 million might be record.
You don't know why isn't anyone resigned of this.
I don't think the answer to every single problem that you are a car in journalism or anywhere else is for the big one that somebody was like what you've got to remember the context you were kind enough to mention in your introduction that this will happen in 2014 your recorded around that time a number.
Senior figures in the entertainment industry will being found guilty of sexual offences of one sort or another so the fact that another major figure in the entertainment industry was being investigated on that basis.
Seemed to us to be something that was very much in the public interest to report has anyone that still seems to us to be the case has anyone offer the resolution of this.
I'm not aware that anybody is off of the resignation, but nobody's resignations been asked for because the people as I was going to go on the same made the decisions that are made in the context of the law as it then existed the Goalposts of not be moved and of the mayday mayday adjustments in the in the best way to possibly could and in good faith that taken responsibility within Maestro stampy with it what you're really saying in effect in terms of its practical consequences, is it the BBC can make a disastrous editorial decision fighting lose a legal battle cost and 2 million pairs of public money and no one scene is taking responsibility for it and they put you up to talk about it mean why isn't Fran Unsworth of Tony all in the studio? Where does it happen to the most just returning from from from trips abroad but but
How to make this decision today because actually we run out of time by tomorrow the court of Appeal has got to be at either we take it to the calderfields that tomorrow we don't say that's just an incidental and incidental to the main case but is this the everybody in the BBC right up to and including the director-general takes responsibility, what happens when I was resigned to put on a crazy case as I said already.
It's not the answer to every problem to sack people to get people to resign ok this from Angela Haggerty and come back to the second if you if we can do with Angela Haggerty the columnist for the Sunday Herald and is in our Glasgow studio and Angela ataxia time Cliff Richard says beauty buses should carry the can do you agree? No, I'm a little bit concerned about and talking enough of people being sacked and resigned and all these things because I think it's a little bit of a mixed message from the BBC of the BBC actually um um I think it's a shame that you're not going to do this, but I think it was right that we did fight it and I think I have a good down the road of anything like that taken even more responsibility for 4.
What's going on here then? And it becomes so complicated? We're not even sure who's taking responsibility for what then I think that that's actually if you look at things from the bigger picture.
There are wider repercussions that affect Media in general that affect journalists across the country, so I think the BBC it in my reading of the of the conclusions that they come to this is not that they that they are stepping back and taking full responsibility and agreeing with with everything Cliff Richards representative saying in there, are they are perception of what's going on BBC you saying that there? Isn't think it could win the appeal but essentially still standby a lot of those principles about freedom of speech and freedom of expression so I think the BBC need to do really really trying to pull that is strongly as it can because I don't think actually that the public really understand the consequences of us and forgive her.
I will just to be clear fluid from your point mutagenesis as there is a reported as a columnist.
How will this warning affect the ability of during this to do.
A job seekers disastrous because it has a chilling effect when you have an issue like privacy when it specially if you have something that UK slow coming on it means that they can now be a lot of Grey areas that your nails will be fearful of of stepping into because they could be financial repercussions were talking about an industry right here that that has cut straight across the board year in year out big Media publishers are not as likely or keen to take on cases like this is he might once have been so I think that will have a drip down.
You know effect in The Newsroom I think that will see newspapers less likely to go after me to notice truck me yesterday.
I actually win them after Ben Stokes was was cleared of everfree The Cricketer in the statement.
That is same as his representative red outside the court.
There is a big part in that about the meteor any in this this idea seems to be formulating the telling the public that someone has been accused of a crime is the same as being the
What is the same as in Ferring Gill in the same thing so it was the name indication if it's something about series sex offences were that can have such a damaging your baby as they were not too much of the public would be with sea Cliff Richards point if you in there since he's been appallingly tarnished when he was an innocent man, but the court case in the way this is going is a think what you're going to see is people starting to invoke privacy on much less serious situations in this idea that even just to let the public know that people have been accused of a crime as some have a bit of privacy is very very dangerous in a democracy Justice needs to be seen to be done it needs to be open and I think that will they were really risk and chip in a way that another don't they really really think it's a shame because I don't think the public understand how this is actually bad for them or girls react to be from the Sun of her that thank you very much indeed for your time on what I know.
It's a busy day.
I bought some from the Guardian how badly damaged the b.
Sibo this affect more than anything.
It's embarrassed the court case was not a particularly pleasant experience in the executives involved in Sicily for any journalists.
You've ever sent some Chucky emails.
It was a reminder that you may one day season read out in court.
It's been left for the substantial Bill and most problematically and it is intriguing to see you push for a some of your buses to potentially be put on the chopping block but the fact that they are going to stick by the senior executives and instead go down the political roots and try and turn this into a major campaign is interesting and well.
I think there is a sense that the case was maybe we can the BBC thought it was there is a general industry-wide believe that this is a very very bad ruling for journalism in there is no probable Desire among editors to do something about this so we will probably see support for Tony holes position on this is papers and you sent it to them Jordan funny having spent millions of pounds of licence fee payers money and fighting a case that somebody Gill opinion thought unwinnable following editorial decision.
Why do Condemned by the media what steps do the BBC actually taken to make sure this doesn't happen again the organisation is taking a large number of steps to look at aspect like one of these things.
They're looking at the use of helicopters over curiously enough another one is that there? Is is that there was some comments may be the judge about the the right of reply in the in this case about the how much time was given to Clifton is it and it's representatives to respond so obviously we need to look at all these points of that nature that the judge made in in in his judgement and and change as our processes accordingly so there's a lot of work going on about to to interpret and make sure that we don't fall into these into these traps again to type of the judgement of make sure of that are that will happen, but we musn't lose sight as I think you're your two commentators.
Haven't done of the critical issue at stake here which is about whether you can I report police investigations and name Suspects in police Adventures and we haven't discussed one other aspect of it to which is the way in which the judge has it?
Standard all our privacy damages are in a way that privacy related to defamation and Eleanor based on reputation.
That's completely new law to and could have the same sort of chilling effect does Angela was mentioning in relation to the main judgement will be wonderful 24 fret Handsworth came on the show to discuss at David you and thank you very much indeed for your time and for coming on the show one then we have mentioned on the show as much as we might have is Jeffrey katzenberg.
He's the hugely influential Mogul and former chair of Disney and CEO of DreamWorks animation who's investment vehicle wonder co has paid hundreds of millions into Media Ventures around the world behind Meg Whitman the former CEO of eBay and Hewlett-Packard to run wonder coat.
He's not a pulled off his most audacious fundraising round yet securing $1000000 free start-up completely remarkable really cold new TV through startup in modern Media have attracted more buzz, but opinion is divided writing in Wired magazine yesterday journeys Felix salmon said it's probably going to fail Daniel Gallagher of ampere analysis and on the line, is it with me?
Turn on the line is Gary Epstein is the media editor of The Economist Danny with you first for what is new TV and will it work Sony TV is as you say it's it's a new start-up is better a billion in in funding so far and it's mobile centric content so it will be a platform akin to something like Netflix but it's going to focus on short form content and it's going to be just for mobiles only and that's what that's that's the direction that kattenberg women taking this billion-dollar startups lots of bubble territory and this live up to the hype but he was looking to raise 2 billion was an inside the 1 billion easy ways.
I think you mentioned this is 750 million has already been raised by the Holding Company undercoat and actually a lot of that is also being pushed into a new TV as well.
I'd like to say he did go that you tried to get 2 billion and I think pointing out the size of the investment and she's interested to come out from a different angle, if we look in terms of content spend.
We look at Netflix alone that they're putting forward 8 billion in terms of content Spencer actually when you look at it.
Content marketing spending money on producing this premium content which is exactly what they want to do just ensure to format actuator small amount so it's it's how that's going to translate how they're going to be able to produce this premium content as well and and at the scale at they want to go the Epstein from The Economist an immediate immediate some the beauties medium Epstein is The Economist Media give me the mod Freudian slip from Manhattan will new TV work Color Me skeptical.
I think he's good point or another speaker in the studio there about about Netflix spending 8 billion and continent is this doesn't seem like a lot back comparison, exit Netflix is spending 12 or 13 billion dollars a year and contents a crowded space where a tonne of companies are spending a lot of money to make content that they want people to pay for and then there is it?
Are freely available short form content and things like YouTube shared clips online to keep people have occupied on the go on their mobiles, so I'm not sure exactly where new TV fits you have a subscription services up the wazoo have like Netflix Amazon YouTube Disney's new service HBO is going to get bigger than you got all the other freely available stop on mobile ready.
I'm not sure exactly where are new TVs markets going to be I think that's the first time.
We've had the phrase up the wazoo on the media show and I'm very grateful for it and it's what your in effects saying Daddy I understand you that there is an element of subscription fatigue.
There are lots of other very good subscription services and the demand the appetite for punters for consumers customers to pay for a further 1 may be limited.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
I think you have you can easily wrap $100 a month and subscriptions to various video services and then you are so have you know whatever music service you using like Spotify or apple music.
So I would say and those folks offer also some short form video and will offer more apples is putting in at least a billion dollars so for about 1 4 minutes or so, I think there's a lot competition short form has not had a big moment yet where you're going to say it's a must-see TV that's what they say.
They're waiting for but there's no Assurance that new TV would be the one that provides Your House of Cards moment for a short form video if your phone video proves at work.
Why not Netflix or YouTube Amazon putting a little bit of there are many billions of dollars into that space.
Why wouldn't they? Why would they succeed ok Daniel god? It isn't the truth so cool old television services cable TV or proven quite commercially resilient actually there is still a huge amount of money in that to rain.
It's not like newspapers were the advertising is disappearing pretty fast from some places in their book to charge customers more actually had had dollars in the world of tea.
He still pretty resilience resilience of the research that we've done it and pears actually showing their alongside your pay-tv service and people actually stacking the social services on top so you know all their willies, so what are spiders? What is streaming online service like your Netflix is your Amazon's your hulu's and people stacking these on top of their you know normal pay TV services in in in in the UK in the last few quarters.
We've seen the naturally decline in the pay TV subscriptions.
Is it stopped and actually people that people are more likely now to be taking the service on top of of pip ADB services and bacteria.
Gary's point on Beano subscription fatigue another thing that we've seen his is Ashford stacking taking multiple services in the US it's actually around if you are a an owner of one of these services you actually more likely to have around 3 in the UK that's too so there is still room to grow people are building content and packaging themselves the content that they really interested in with her up the wazoo and S4 stack you if we do well.
But I'll be trying to think I get what is for stacking is Jim Wilson isn't isn't the interesting thing about new TV that basically everyone has always tried to crack mobile right.
You know from your time at buzz feed from working in newspapers now.
If you look at internet consumption mobile is the growth area we will try to make money at mobile but mobile has a certain problem which is an advert look small and they don't look very good and if you're doing short form TV content 10-minute watching a minute of an advert on mobile won't be so fun so cracking short form video on mobiles of pretty tough challenges in it.
I find it.
I find it absolutely baffling business is one because I don't really understand why when I see other people on their communities watching TV on their phones are streaming over 4G and what are they watching there watching the 10 minutes of that network Netflix programme they were finishing last night.
They're watching the first half of that thing on iPlayer that they want to finish when their home they put it on the big TV 172 the door, but while they're on the bus while they're on the Tube while on the train.
I'll be watching you know long from stuff and then attracted by quality than don't really mind what format is in as long.
I can stream it on any size device, so I don't really see I mean I'm very impressed at anyone is raising money for Media Ventures in this environment given almost everyone who's done an online startup in the media world recently has been desperately cutting jobs are trying to avoid going past so I think that's that that's the great success and if he can manage to last a few years doing this and produce something worthwhile long way, you only really need a few breakout things to make it work, but as the other gas to said I think this is a really important thing.
This is no longer a new thing this is not like when House of Cards launch.
Never went gosh to get this exciting you think you have to join something called Netflix and it's only available on your laptop people got used to their habits a form them already.
They've got the two or three in a very got two of the three subscriptions will now have for the rest of their life at least next 20 years anyways now keep with the new TV isn't actually a very new idea now.
We we should remember this is her his working size of a new TV there.
They will run out of the name and I think in the next couple of months in an anything goes to get 45% of 18 to 34 year olds at watching day.
Online video on on their smartphones it isn't it isn't new what the new Concepts could be it is trying to bring this premium aspect2i to spend in 0526 million per season on the on this content and bringing in the Talon from Hollywood and and that maybe workouts and burgers is positioning himself but again as we said that the content spend side and they spend that they're going to do on this type of content probably has to go up if they are to to to compete with her with the Netflix to the word Daniel Cardiff remember now.
Just thanks so much for a time today.
I let stay with America now because tomorrow over 100 newspapers national regional and local are coming together to jointly published coordinated editorials declaring Donald Trumps war in the media anti-democratic the Boston globe is coordinating the action arguing this dirty war in the Free Press must end well.
It's become Commonplace to Lament Trumps tax and media of course whether his deployment of the phrase fake news or to his tweeting at clips of wrestling Palace against CNN this is President Trump at a Campaign rally at Campaign rally, sorry.
the dishonest Media
Which has published 1/4 story after another?
With no sources even though they pretend they have them.
They may come up in many cases, they just don't want to report the truth and they've been calling us wrong now for 2 years.
They don't get it, but they're starting to get it.
I can tell you that will get the Epstein the immediate issue of The Economist is still with us from Manhattan and Gary newspaper subscriptions are up web traffic is up ratings for TV news is up shouldn't the media be thanking President Trump rather than lambasting in certainly trump has been helpful the business, but I think that you're seeing this reaction from it's gonna be back to 100 newspapers tomorrow that I have this editorial because trump has been obviously in a multi-year campaign against them in spin basically asymmetrical warfare it he's been wanting bounds of the press as a work for several sensors campaign is undermined faith in journalism.
He was attacked Every Story that's no good about em is fake news and draws.
Haven't like to make themselves the story so they've been sort of can have both hands tied behind their back in response and so I think it's kind of welcome to see how newspapers are stand up for themselves and and try and promote the idea of a free press exam would Sims people and actually I mean to what you sent item is actually prevented from doing a job in America that the protected by the First Amendment it's not like working as a journalist in Russia today or working in Myanmar today where there's a serious ritual safety isn't it's light element of actually this life isn't so bad.
If you are American Jonas right now and it's a pretty unpleasant place to be in to have that lack of faith in it.
I remember covering some the very early trump rallies while he was still going for the come and see out in the US and even then on the campaign trail standing at the back when he was hurling abuse of the media was quite experienced.
He felt very much under attack equally I do think the journalist sometimes like to elevate themselves somewhat and we have to be.
Set that there has been issues.
Where reporting is has taken place and there is a reason why sometimes the public trust the media has been threatened, so my my feeling is that basically Donald Trump has been very good for business, but we need to we need to really really think whether we want to start wrestling with a pig because I think as the saying goes you would you tend to end up being the one that comes off worse that's also the first hour for the phrase wrestling with the pigs out today.
Is it is it is a day for bed in practical terms in what should people during this actually do that mean their personal safety may at rallies as you say piece of impinging hurt, but what this is €200 right into it editorial.
I don't respect the Donald Trump is going to change but he does particularly might really support from the public but how to join us on a day-to-day basis.
Go about their business differently in the age of trump.
I'm afraid I'm quite tradition on this.
I think it's just to get your head down.
Do your job stick to the facts do the reporting stand up when he does falsehoods correct him when he's wrong attempt to make it clear but don't get into a personal Walkers there's no way you're going to win in a bully Inn
A game of bully vs.
Bully he's going to be the biggest one in the game and he's going to end up on top so the only thing you can really do to my mind is stick to core principles.
Don't overstate things don't understate things tell them as they are and try and get the truth out there.
Can you bring that you work for a New York liberal organ? Do you feel and attacks you feel that Donald Trump is corroding democracy British liver Oregon the New York branch in hi I do think I would want I want to respond to this point.
I do things really sore or actually just doing their job and whatever they're going to stay tomorrow is probably going to be just a statement of principles and rejection a very dangerous rhetoric about the present we can get to remember that just two months ago.
We had a shooting in Annapolis Maryland here.
Yes where I newspaper office was attacked in five people were killed the practical consequences talk about practical consequences.
I've run out of time.
Thank you very very much for your contribution and to gym at the David Jordan before that and indeed at Daniel Carter
Same time next week.
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