Read this: The battle for teatime

Hello, I'm Andrea catherwood and welcome to the media Show podcast can the line between journalism and public relations ever be safely crossed, you might think that for reporters at a boundary as vital as that between church and state.

So why are students at one university now being offered a degree in journalism with public relations will hear from the lecturer leading the course and ask what it says about the direction of the news business is heading or today or selection of guests does rather blur those lines Karen Haines is the co-founder of shout communications or PR agency Karen I did notice that you have been blogging on about your appearance on the media show of course we at the media show read the blog and you've revealed that you will be following the media training techniques that you give your own clients at you noted that the presenter wants a guest to be authority opinionated entertaining and presentable I said that's a pretty high bar and they think they have to ask for trouble for myself and I

I'm going to have to take a leaf out of my media training manual to try to come up to the bath.

Lol x I can tell you as a presenter when I have just settled for a sofa, but then another story.

What have you done that? Have you done to prepare for today's if you have a look back through all my media training just in case any clients of my team are listening to it to this and tried to followed my advice office I listen to a few little and back programs and I thought about what I might say and my view on the degree that you've just described excellent on a serious note they want to typical day what percentage of stories in the news bulletin have actually come out because of the work of a PR professional IQ difficult figure out of the I can't really put them but I think if you if you did I think never has journalism and PR relied on each other as much as it does now and if you took away the pr stories and actually you would have a hole.

An awful lot of bullet install the cutbacks that you've had an in-use rinse over recent years more often is also here with me know mark is there for ITV news anchor and foreign correspondent Mark I'm not gonna ask you how much preparation you've done for Today programme that he went possibly out for Let Her message about to start presenting Anu 1700 show for Sky News little bit more about that later, but mod you've just return from from 12 months at working in Washington for Sky and we might think that journalist particularly foreign Correspondents the aunt influence the door by PR but no way is it true that many of them have fallen for Donald Trumps unusual but highly effective form of pr.

Because his tweets can really dominate the mainstream news cycle amino do tend to set the agenda for the day at times don't like that and you know after a year of covering Trump

Probably need a show I need a holiday.

It's pretty challenging and it's all consuming covering Donald Trump in Washington buddy is in many ways the ultimate political PR man he does his own PR and it all starts at 6:37 in the morning as he's doing his ablutions tweeting from from the white house and it is a serious point in that it sets the tone for the news agenda of the day and how worrying is that the president United States is doing that any many ways he is using Twitter to avoid being challenged in a more typical news conference setting for instance.

You know he is setting his agenda.

He is reaching people directly rather than using the mainstream Media to do it for him.

He has fallen out with the mainstream Media in America there is real vitriol between the president and

CNN and MSNBC in at these networks, I don't see where it's going to end anytime soon.

I can't see that it is doing journalism much good army is waging a war actually against journalism in the United States and that is seriously worrying with all his fake news stuff and but he is reaching his core support and they seem to like it and there's at the moment.

I wouldn't bet against him being reelected when the program but first if your Rover 75 your TV licence is free the government used to cover the cost but as part of the last licence fee settlement the BBC agree to gradually take it on in 2020 the BBC becomes fully responsible for the skin the cost of giving out free TV licences adds up to about 725 million times a year and yesterday the BBC director-general hinted that it might not be able to afford it.

Giving evidence at the cultural Media culture and media select committee Tony Hall revealed that there's going to be a public consultation before the BBC board takes a decision on whether the skin continues.

This is a quite a weighted decision because you said chairman.

We've got on the one hand inflation in the content market on the one hand our audience is expecting us to do different things and Dana derricks potatoes gone up on the other hand real hardship and pensioners.

This is a very very difficult issue and I suspect you know it's one of the reasons.

Why we have to think about in the government said over to you.

It's because it's a very very hard thing to work through an eye.

I know the board will take that very very seriously loadhaul will the deal that sees the BBC become responsible for paying for this was done back in 2015 John whittingdale with culture secretary.

And the cost of allowing people over 75 to have a free tv.

Licence was meant for the BBC buy a pretty substantial payment from the public purse to the BBC and so the government felt that it was time of austerity.

We win the evening to make savings and therefore the BBC should be asked to contribute to that so what happened was that the government's that we would phase out that payment from the DWP and that the BBC would been future take responsibility for my Sky channel 5 executive said at the time that would be idiotic for the BBC to carry on giving away free TV licences, when it had a choice.

He's got a point as me 20 people aged over 75 who are perfectly capable of affording TV licence and some would say well in that case why shouldn't they do so so you know there is an option of perhaps looking at whether or not.

Means-tested and restricted to those and that comes with the option of the no longer exempting households where there are people living under 75 or there is the option of removing it in it's entirety of the BBC has a duty to balance on at the cost to his of maintaining the bowls against Andover the potential for extra spending on programming, but that is a massive the BBC so tiny holes comments to say that this is a matter under consideration should come as no surprise.

Tall is any government to announce that it was removing a benefit worth £150 a Year from pensioners.

Who would be a huge political cost to me.

It's a massive vote loser.

Isn't it? Is it fair that it's the BBC who has to take such a political decision at the time of the general elections and the free TV licences for those over 75 should continue and that's why it is guaranteed until 2020, but it was decided this.

Oxford the negotiation which we have with the BBC to have a timing chart for an eel that they would take on the cost, but obviously wants that guarantee has been exhausted it if you like then it would be for the BBC to decide cynical was talking yesterday about my viewers expect even more these days from the BBC with with Netflix other than more pressure on the BBC to create even more content.

Do you think it's fair and you think it's possible that the BBC can actually carry this cost of an extra 750 million pounds from the licensee and therefore it has the resources to provide excellent programming and which it is in which it continues to do but obviously if it is going to maintain the TV licence exemption than that is going to come with a cost so with this is a matter for the BBC to balance the world is changing.

There is much more content out there, but it doesn't necessarily mean the BBC has two.

Right complete in every area is the government you think probably quite pleased that this is a problem that the BBC has to deal with an odd current government undoubtedly the government will be relieved that it's been if you like taking out of the political playing field John whittingdale, Ian Lucas is Labour MP and sits on the digital culture media and sport select committee Mr Lucas free licence fees for the over 75's was originally labour policy at do you think that it still useful and necessary as a good policy? I think that it's a political decision that the Labour Party and the Labour government made and it was it was essentially switched away from responsibility very smartly by the conservative government in 2015 and it I think that it's a massive problem for the BBC and it's a political problem a political decision that I've always said the BBC should never have had to make.

Should the BBC do I mean Tony hold said that there are loads of options? What are they as you see them? Well? I think the first of the got to do is produce a list of proposals and consult on that.

It's a really difficult political problem.

It's a problem that the board the BBC a nagging have to deal with and I should say that this was not a lengthy negotiation which led to this deal happening and the switch of the responsibility for the licence fee to the BBC it was a very very short-term a gun to the Head arrangements between the government and the BBC One essentially the government compelled BBC to do this so I think that tiny holes make liaise very unhappy about that, but he has got to do it so next year looks like they're going to consult and I do think they need to come up with it a range of proposals and I suspect the Kinect come under a huge amount of political pressure on this.

What do you actually think will happen to mean that you were.

There's been some talk about for example a means test that doesn't work with the winter fuel allowance they surely it wouldn't work also with the a licence fee well.

It's also very difficult because of the BBC going to be administrator a means test have their the capacity to do that how they going to exchange data between themselves and the other DWP or whichever branch of government will be dealing with this.

So that is an obvious approach with John whittingdale.

They did referred to but it's very difficult for the BBC to administer that and it looks like if if that is proposed and in some ways the government is going to have to get involved again, which brings us back to the Essential political nature of this decision and I suspect that the government is going to start to come and pressure to be involved in this in this MP thank you very much for Jane martinson.

Who's guardian columnist and fat and BBC watcher is here drink.

This is a huge.

Chunk of the total licence fee take the BBC can't afford to pay.

The over 75's licence fee itself cannot well as you say it's a fifth of the total licensee settlements.

I mean you don't we worry about the Independence of the BBC and effectively two years ago with that licence fee settlement and a child to review they were made a branch office of the Department of Work and Pensions this is incredibly difficult for the BBC to deal with the government has effectively as in I thought you had John whittingdale the Architects of that backroom deal along with George Osborne saying that turned the BBC had to make contribution because budgets for the nation were falling well.

That wasn't really the way it was done the BBC's not supposed to be a government department, but as you say it's now having to make significant cuts of the walls talk about pronouncing an advertising campaign using oldest celebrity is asking people who can afford it people over 75 going to forward it to pay the room licence fee is that the kind of thing that might happen that already has going to have.

Versailles call David macadam, Silver celebrity yeah, nice of Dame Helen Mirren and Dance David Attenborough will that make a difference I didn't know when a voluntary contribution.

I think the only cos was saying there that means testing is incredibly difficult.

How do you decide who can afford not to pay these sorts of numbers to rely on voluntary donations that's going to be tough and the BBC again to have started doing it really seen has not much time.

This is is only one puddleby the large part of a much bigger is to the BBC still has to make a huge amount of budget cuts Tony Hall talk to yesterday and that select committee about hi, they're already trim the low-hanging fruit a phrase that he said he disliked as much as many of our listeners.

Well.

I'm sure but how does the BBC make these big savings and can you see some big decisions about getting rid of Hull parts of the service? This is the perennial issue, of course I mean what's interesting if you think about that 2016 settlement people at the time knew that this was a massive issue former director-general Mark Thompson the said it was effectively well.

Fair it would really Crush the BBC but we talked about the licence fee being saved they were concessions, so the licensee itself had 11 years to run but of course now the BBC have to actually start doing much more so we talked about are they going to do more online only as they did with BBC Three and they're getting too close stations so much of the attention has been on the other part of charter review which was the disclosure of pay for Talent we have seen Chris Evans and much more limited Eddie Mair walk away from this channel, but that really is a drop in the ocean compared to what they've got now come up with Jane thank you very much indeed for now moving back over to you tomorrow afternoon when we hear commentators like Jane talking about the BBC and cutting costs are closing stations comes up and occasionally the idea of closing a rolling news station comes up as well later this month.

I know you're about to launch.

Sky News is new tea time show the newshour with all these.

Ways of disseminating use that sky has these days are you still convinced that a roebling news? Channel is essential absolutely and it's not just the news channel.

I mean one of the most interesting things that I found over the past year certainly working for Sky News and in Washington is how the means of delivery is now the really interesting thing in journalism and mobiles and you know laptops people are getting my kids.

I'm not getting their news from a terrestrial news program at 10 at night.

They get a MEN news from you know sky news on their mobile watching rolling use are they just watching out of a clue, but isn't rolling news channel has a very important part to play in this country and certainly in this democracy.

You can't leave rolling is the BBC in this democracy.

Let's be serious and you know and Sky News does an incredible job of one of the most of energizing things for me is going from.

Hey, you know what was called.

I think appointment to view news program at 6:30 in the evening or News at Ten to Rolling news and it's incredibly exciting.

That's what we want this new show to be at 5 to be exciting to be bold and ambitious all the things that sky already are a bit also you know analysis why something matters and you know with brexit.

I think the analysis and what's really going on his every bit as important as breaking news which is the stuff that sky does so well and always has done talked about PR Reilly are not looking at the press release that has a quote from Christina colosseo is your boss at sqaishey's your boss.

She said that you will have your own take on the day stories and that it will give us a chance to give Sky News more personality.

I just wanted that sounds a little bit like you'll be allowed to express some opinion well, you know this is very interesting and having spent a year.

In the States you now have a situation where a rolling news channel nights like CNN is now.

You know unapologetically bias anti-trump anti-trump ladies anti trump MSNBC is anti-trump.

They will scarcely cover anything that is positive about Donald Trump and I'm not saying for a moment that that is what is going to happen to this country.

It can't happen in this country.

You know there is a bit.

We are we have them by restraints we have our off, it could be more opinion.

I think we can you I don't know about that.

There's a programme on Sky call the place where people are more opinionated as I say the Weir governed by strict rules here which don't apply to say for instance Fox News in America so I'm but now I'm not going to be opinionated.

I'm being not going to see an LP singer dial Mark I think it's more really about what I was saying about trying to say why something matters is very I'm thinking more of a brexit than I am.

Trump in it, I think we need clarification and explanation at more than ever in the coming few weeks a month that you've written a book about your life and TV news which is going to be published next month and paste on on your experience in the US last year for Sky as a correspondent.

You are quite critical of of cnns unrelenting coverage of Donald Trump well.

I'm just into the new when it's not saying in this current the general shop Enya of the mainstream Media but I think I think I think we have to remember in United States is that Donald Trump won this election didn't win the popular vote but he won the electoral College he was made president and I think you know what I tried to do when I was there a very short time was to get out and find out why Donald Trump won the election.

I don't think the mainstream media and United States do that enough.

You know sometimes you're just watch CNN your debts get bit of criticism of Donald Trump going to win you won't get

About finding out what trump supporters feel why they feel it and let's be honest Donald Trump tapped into something very significant the United States which was a sort of white working-class disaffection with the establishment with politics and certainly tapped it on things like immigration and jobs and it has worked and it is still working and if I said earlier don't bet against him you know being reelected.

We talk as you can imagine an awful.

Lot on the media show about fake news some people of sick of hearing about it, but in your book you say I controversially that fake news maybe the best thing to happen to the purveyors of real news because it will encourage people to finally cough up and wait for news.

They can rely on my point is that in an era, where all this fake news is being bandied about and I'm not talking about Donald Trumps accusations of fake news against the mainstream Media it's more the fake news online as a whole lot of mush.

There we don't know what true we don't know what's stood up.

We don't know what's corroborated and my point is that it may be now that people young people will be more prepared to pay for news than ever before and they may be prepared to pay for news in a way they pay for their movies in the way they pay for their music.

They now used to just tapping on their phone and paying £2.50 for something will why not encourage young people now to pay for news real news not fake news, not much not stuff.

That's out there, but real news and the Guardian website everyday is saying competing for donations will now it may be that this is something that's going to happen because of fake news that I wanted to ask you to just about your career as a foreign correspondent in terms of one thing you know you have been newborn Witness on the spot to lots of different places in the world whether it's rwandan, Genocide or Nelson

Dallas release but you talking the book about high foreign Correspondents are very expensive and it as a TV news editor you can get your footage Elsewhere and they're being phased out that the era of foreign Correspondents is coming to an end.

I'm just wondering what you do when we're concerned about actually verifying where all this footage is coming from is that true or can you not see that actually? Maybe news editor missing a trick and we should be investing more in foreign news and having those very well known and trusted people on the ground is no question that the pure journalism is being there bearing Witness and reporting back the truth, but it's very expensive to do that.

It's often said at the moment.

It's a golden age of journalism.

I think it's a golden age of delivery in journalism and the means of delivery and how easy it is now to get your knees.

I don't think it's a golden age for journalists because of budget cuts fewer and fewer foreign Correspondents are out there and fewer and fewer news organisations have the money to support those correspondence, but there's no question that the most important journalism.

Getting out in 2 countries where there may not be a free press and get into the truth Mark thank you very much and did you stay with us as we're moving on to a topic that is not unrelated at all here is a quote the every aspiring journalist.

You know journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed everything else is public relations actually said it first who knows it's been attributed to everybody from George Orwell to Lord Rothermere the sentiment is clear not only our journalism and PR not the same thing at times that died metrically opposed to what to make them of a new degree starting soon at Salford University title is journalism with public relations or Sarah air is the lecturer at leading the course of this is going to send shivers through many listeners here in the studio explain the rationale behind it ok? Yeah, we've been thinking about developing this course for a while.

I've been teaching journalism at Salford for about 12 years now and part of that was.

Delivering API module and that work very well.

It was getting more and more popular and then we realise that a lot of our journalism graduates.

We're going out there and getting jobs in PR so this is kind of why we've decided to launch this new course.

It is still going to be weighted in favour of journalism, so they'll be studying two-thirds journalism and one-third PR but it's basically we seen the the skills that are students learn and develop while there with us.

I lend themselves very well to either practical journalism in The Newsroom situation or going on and and working in public relations or in comms roles as well as I wonder if if one of your student does go for a job interview at 1, they say the Times don't you think that the reference of having studied PR would be a red flag not know I don't think it would because learning about PR is going to help journalists understand the Jones and students or

Did students who are wanting to be journalist? It's going to help them to understand how PR works and also it's going to allow any any journalist student that starts off thinking yes journalism for me, but as they go further on their thing he will actually know I can use these these skills Elsewhere and I think I'd like to try comms role, so it's it's extending their employability broadening their Horizons indeed which is obviously crucial for a simile a journalist says graduates leaving and looking for jobs.

Kevin Haynes is the founder of the PR agency shout communications current you wants a journalist in fact actually in your former creode ITN you overlapped with both me and marked tell us briefly what your company does and will we specialise in in broadcast PR so we work with with brands and we and we get those France coverage editorial coverage mainly on the new sometimes it in daytime programming on television and radio the so I've I'm really one of those people that was the Poacher

Gamekeeper depending on how you look at it really when you look at the costs that to Sarah's offering itself food with graduates from that.

Would they appeal to you for a sort of to appointing and Sarah sort of answered my question and which when I first heard about the course? I was thinking what is the point and I think that PR and journalism has never been as in at the so entwined as it is now it no interdependent so if the point of the course was for both Industries to better understand that the other industry then then great but if it's really for people hedging their bets.

It's making me cringe if this isn't this this was television you'd be looking at a row of cringy faces in in in here and I think whilst some of the skills are interchangeable.

I think this course is much more useful for somebody going into PR to understand about journalism than the other way round.

Do you find that actually Sarah that most of your graduates end up in PR rather than in journalism lots of regional newspapers and local newspapers.

We have many Hill working in newsrooms of BBC and ITV and also on Manchester Uni news, London Evening Standard and we have a couple who have been working.

I'm doing traineeships mail online so we do have a lot that will go out there and get the the proper hard-nosed journalism jobs.

I would just like to sort and trap you and I would like to say it was quite interesting for us to find out that the the nctj which is the National Council for the training of journalists, which overseas training of journalism in the UK they have also kind of their they're also veering towards the pr route as well and one of their new modules that they're offering is PR and communications for journal.

So it's typed, it is something that I think we're heading towards Carol I wanted to quickly ask you about something on his b-roll and that's the news of the pictures the film basically that goes around a news report you supply those two to news organisations and their use them as that ribose.

They would say that you don't use the but I can tell you every single national TV station in the UK have used it and we always say you've got a film it in na na new style and you've got to give journalist something that they can't easily film for themselves which these days is much easier to do anything out of central London and think that's going to take a little bit of time to fill wood that would come into that category and we would save quite often gratefully received everybody says that but I'm a pretty lazy journalism ok, well, it's and thank you very much to all of you.

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