Read this: Dark ads and slow news

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hygiene, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 and slow news that agenda today.

Let me introduce you to our guests Claire Beale is eglobal editor-in-chief of campaign the magazine that reports on the advertising industry Claire good to see what's your top stories today top stories about ITV ITV palooza Callum calls the new chief exec and she went on stage last night at the Royal Festival Hall to tell the appetizing and Street how ITV is taking on the likes of Netflix's of CS just announced hand and 37 million subscribers around the world and it share prices gone often traditional Media at a trying to fight back in the face of the new world oven for my friends to get home to the she doesn't work in the advertising industry.

Why should we care about your lead story?

Produced dedicated British programming is really important thing culturally for us and ITV's part of the Fabric of our Society am Sam Jeffers is here.

He's a co-founder of who targets me which monitors how Facebook is used by political groups to target us with sometimes murky advertising but Sam crucially you also the drummer in a band called fridge at a post rock band.

It says here.

Don't know why our debut album was called ceefax.

So my big question for you is did you have a favourite page number on ceefax? I probably did but I can't remember would have been there yet the rolling football headlines cricket surely pastry for summer or winter James Harding is here the former director of BBC news and current affairs also the former editor of The Times now founder and editor of a completely new venture called tortoise at which promises slow news and a

Different kind of Newsroom James and if you're fond of stone used as you know your master Fantasy XV update really quite funny never knew when the news was going to catch up with you.

Is that the modern inspiration for your not necessarily? I would have thought the colour palette.

Do you remember the colour on the clothes that your venture II thank you James before that 2018 has spell at times like 1 long prices for Facebook Cambridge analytica scandal revelations about Russian meddling in the US election and last month and admission at 50 million accounts 15 million accounts may have been accessed by hackers the companies keen to show that it's dealing with these problems and this week.

It's announce new rules on political adverts in the UK if you want to advertise a political cause you're now need to prove your identity and location and your eyes will come with the label that reveals who paid for it Facebook is trying to stamp out the problem of

Bark at Sam's dimension is a co-founder of who targets me that's an organisation that has done much to bring dogs to public attention, So Let's Begin at the beginning.

What are dark and so dark ads were a type of social media advertising where you couldn't see them unless they were targeted at you say weren't visible in the public feed of the page.

They were in oatopia.

Family would see them for a second in your feed you scroll past them and it began and then you and you never see them again.

So you know that phenomenon with was really challenging for us around elections because you know political parties candidates can buy large quantities of these they could show 1 offer to one set of people a different offer to other sets of people and you would never really have that kind of public Debate and accountability around those have had first ok, so if you're on Facebook you're going through your yoyo check your knees facing pictures of babies will ever would you have any sense was not you're being targeted and what would you know about the political ads that were targeting you serving overseas CD ad and as a user you can click a little box.

Top right corner of a Facebook ad and ask Facebook why am I seeing this ahead and it will give you some and a basic targeting information about that, but what you couldn't see was all the other rides that that page was running so if your neighbour was seeing a different type of advertising targeted for a different reason.

Yeah, they're older than you.

They have a different income excetera excetera.

You wouldn't be able to see that that and so what we were trying to do was to expose more of that stuff so that they could be a broader public debate about the content and the targeting in the money Behind Those hats and how many dogs are there in the UK that's really hard question to answer problem again.

I think it is a really interesting but really under researched areas though because the data hasn't generally been available in the way we collected it wasn't ever really meant to be something that would produce you know good social science or can it media media analysis or whatever I bet you can't really see the extent and what we were saying was that you know a few percent of people's feeds would be filled with political ads during the general election campaign last year's day.

Would still be seeing out for other stuff.

It wasn't you don't like you might see in American television where you know in the run-up to let?

CITV ads are bombarding you the whole time and basically around the news you can't see anything else.

It was it was a much can of lighter thing than that but on the other hand you know it's grown massively so in 2010 century this stuff didn't exist by the 2017 General Election the party to spend about 4 million quid on Facebook as a loan over the space of the kind of regulated.

So a month.

So it's a pretty dramatic change them.

What do you make of Facebook new policy on these little lads in particular? I'm hoping they are on a journey right so we are you now gone from no transparency at all a year ago to a load of stories breaking that forced them to do some things pretty quickly.

There's now a directory of advertising.

That's available in this verification stuff, which will probably help you know reduce at least the number of Uno Russians with credit cards trying to buy ads in our elections, but at the same time that all is they've put forward a really difficult to use so they're not great for helping with the way that are elections regulated here.

We have the spending based regulations if you start searching for ADS in their archive.

It's normally difficult to actually get any data.

That's useful.

Out of it if you take 3 zombie search for Donald Trumps adverts in the US are you get 1.3 million different results Donald Trump over the last 6 months is run 1.3 million different heads in the US how do I interpret that as a motor or regulator or anyone else? I think it's really hard thing to do something to be said in Defence of Facebook he gets a hard time on the show quite often, but they have lowered his archive that you mention you can go there you can search for keyword trample breaks it and it will show you all the ads that relate to that.

I mean that's an important technological development.

They've innovated and produced and engineered think it's a step forward.

I think I think you know when you get into the slot technicalities of this stuff you start to think about well.

How can I help voters really like fully read and had he knows he has copied maybe have a video images of whatever but the targeting is important because it helps me interpret what I'm seeing things like you know a poster was previously an hour but is now shared into my food doesn't appear as one so you can come over.

Did the ground with a lot of advertising and then actually it becomes a sort of Pinot invisible thing against who aren't helping people read stuff.

There are a number of ways where you know they could do more really to help and then there's another thing that you know Facebook isn't the only platform waiting and everyone's doing it differently exactly Claire Beale campaign magazine and you see it as a kind of flipside to those technological advances that allow advertisers to really target us.

I made some part of the same landscapes that that everyone's trying to to deal with advertisers or really concerned about issues of trust and transparency now, but at the same time their exploiting microtargeting and psychographic targeting.

I'm so that they are serving all of us different nuanced ads depending on what they know about us.

I think that's debut for the word so I could graphic on this show in my time.

What does that actually mean understanding a person's likes preferences mindset emotional approach to different triggers and then from that build.

Building out a creative treatment that presses all the right buttons for you as an individual with dementia crisis of trust you can speeches about trust in journalism his Facebook contributed to a crisis of trust in the media, so I think this is one of the most interesting and difficult questions isn't it a iPhone I'm really struggling with it listening to sound thinking about how do you actually try to hold Facebook accountable because it's one thing obviously isn't it? If we walk into a public space and say something.

How do you make sure that the rules that operates in our real-world actually applied to the Digital world so that you can't say something and disappear.

You can't say something anonymously you can't say in affect one thing to one person and another thing to another person and over over the lower course of the last couple of years.

It's really clear that.

The extent to which these big technology platforms and their access and exploitation of Our Data has made a really distrustful really distrustful of the messages we get really distrustful of Media really distrustful for politics and so much so that your living whatever your views are of brexit or of trump with people disputing the validity of those results based on the fact.

They're not sure whether they can trust them messaging that went into them so I think that you know but what can what Claire saying about micro targeting and extent to which that existing advertising.

It's true.

It's not just a Facebook problem exists in the advertising industry to but it's it's running at the heart of trust and confidence in the conversation.

We have as a society and that predicted from the use perspective but Claire Beale from the point of view of the brands that you often work with that.

We had a lot this year about brand safety figures like Heath weed of Unilever have said that advertises might pull out and platforms like Facebook and YouTube if they couldn't trust, what was there that Wall Street Journal

Reported yesterday that a group of advertisers are suing Facebook because the company over estimated amount of time users were watching video add to other digital platforms a risky bet for advertisers to them.

They certainly need to be approached with a degree of caution though very accountable in one sense in that the other metrics around digitising or more robust and many other media platforms because you can see if somebody is clicked on your commercial on the other hand there is a lot of bot traffic the brands have become increasingly wary of because the numbers are enormous.

So they're not necessarily being seen as many st.

There hasn't been seen as many times as as the sum of the figures suggest and Facebook and Google are not particularly open with their own data.

So there is a there is a transparency issue and you touch them brand safety as well in traditional Media you are very aware of the context in which your ad is going to be seen.

On digital platforms you really off and have very little idea what what is around your ad at hence some of the problems that we've we've read about the last year or so about big bands appearing next to very controversial content that absolutely no way what they want to Paris related all this talk more broadly about the ad industry has changed our bring it back on this campaign magazine is celebrating 50 years in print at the ad industry or advertisers FC changed a huge amount over the past 50 years.

Just pick me up and what you've been talked about their house advertising changed in the last decade.

I'm obviously though the rise of digital has fundamentally changed the entire business.

It's changed the way appetising agencies approach the creative challenge and it's it's giving me media media trading the other hand often, but it has fundamentally Brando still selling to human beings.

So, I think it's easy to get caught up in this idea that the world is now been driven by machines talking to machines and their creating this whole ecosystem and human being still needs to be part of that but but the end consumer is the same person that they were 1996 th that with the same sort of emotional DNA so the destruction can be destruction sometimes things to talk about what's changed in the last 10 years because people haven't but what about the role of herbs in our national life.

I'm obsessed with this idea of the public domain from David Mark Randy at the philosopher and dad used to have a particular role in our public domain.

I think of werther's Originals are yellow pages or hope this isn't that's what a long way that Nostalgia for that is a long way from Sam Jeffers and daddy and I think that what you touch on.

There is the Shared experience so I think what the has been a decline in in in life.

Generally is this shared experience all of the nation City

Download Saturday evening watching ITV and therefore seem the same as and therefore being able to sing the same catch phrases in the playground or understanding what you know that the werther's Original Grandad looks like so we have we have lost that and that has been replace the upside is this this idea that you can talk to people specifically on terms that appeal to them I was going through so immediately or doing an indication that advertising is now much more hyper personalize it about what you was consumer have left in terms your digital footprint and our advertisers can use that or politicians can use that to target your interests your bid you're in over your prejudices almost.

Yeah.

I think it's a possibility is definitely much greater for an advertisement temptation to do it is much greater Avenue in a what I supposed to be seeing political advertising is a very different you know it looks very different right so as that used to come through your door leaflets all that would look like that.

I can use paper.

You know his all the issues.

I care about in your area and his bum.

Social media ads look nothing like that all that usually single-issue.

You know very Focus to the point where the other point is that there shareable so if I see a good one.

I'm going to pass it on to other people and again.

No one's ever done that with a leaflet or poster or anything else.

You know see you again as a couple of things there that feel like they're trying to reach different parts of society and also the kind of individual motivation that may be original and I had to previously it had a water cooler moment really good.

You know we hope this out or something at all.

You'll see that had in Coronation Street last night, but it doesn't feel it feels like people looking for a lady promotional hooks and getting people to kind of push that stuff out on a clear let's and let's be to look forward to wherever Titans going lots of you talk about included on this show last week voice activated smart speakers, which have become more popular if I were to say Alexa buy me a lawn mower 450 quid, where's the opportunity for advertisers there in the sense that you want to be the top of that socialist whether it's delivered on a Sky

You know by Alexa but I think those the way the algorithms are working is that the choice will also take into account what it knows about you, so it might know that you actually live in a small house with a small lawn and therefore you only needed tiny lawnmower.

So it as well and I'll be coming much more useful in that sense that they they take out some of the the unnecessary options on the other hand there still absolutely a role for this this big brand advertising you maybe not so important in choosing your lawn mower, but if it comes to something like choosing a car you want to choose a car that all your mates thing is a pretty good car for you to have chosen.

So if you make a selection based on what Alexa thinks you want, but you're makes down the pub think your car choices a bit nothing creepy Alexa know the size of my garden.

What my mates are up to fit all these alternatives for useful.

This idea sponsored content which you have to talk about on this show how much of campaign is funded by sponsored content, what's a bugle nativity bread and it's it's content but it's content that has a commercial imperative because I was with should mention it James James Harding tortoise Media now as oppose to BBC News all the times.

I will talk about your new editorial proposition in a moment, but first you told me yesterday that your new proposition is ad free is that because you think sponsored content is potentially corrupting.

I know I will do that one and second but we we I just think that's just worth stopping cos I think we're scratching at a really big set of questions here around the rules of the internet and the discussion about Facebook and about advertising and I'll politics seems to me to be fundamentally about 2 big ideas one is what are we going to do about platforms the likes of Google and Facebook

And the others what are we going to do with our data and it feels to me as though we're getting closer to talking seriously about whether we should treat platforms more like broadcasters the BBC News regulate them, but when the BBC came along with television came along we knew would be grateful consumers, but we also thought it would have a big impact on society so we thought differently about that and and now we begin to think about data and ask myself the question whether or not we're comfortable to your point useful vs.

Creepy.

Are we comfortable with the idea of these huge companies owning and controlling all of our data? What have art.

What are individual rights to that data and so that's not going away from sponsored content it.

Just seems to me it so this conversation is at the heart of the discussion of elyria on every single week, so I can contact you got its Morgan sponsored content is a lot of Media organisation to doing it all our approach is that we're not going to take her.

And the reason for that is the reason that Claire alluded to is that once you get into the ads business the way the digital media works is that advertises just want more stuff to advertise against and if you want to produce something that high quality you have to make sure that you're in low volume and advertisers want high-volume.

They just want a lot of different stories to advertise again.

So we want to do that you want you to take me to the I'm sceptical of people actually read or watch it.

I think the issue.

I think the one of the things we often do in the news is we can sometimes overestimate the amount that people know but we often at risk of underestimating what what people think underestimating people's intelligence and I generally think that people look at sponsored content.

I know what it is an ape and a flick or no parcel because people have so much information coming at them.

They make choices that you're over 1/10 is generally not one of their what does one second.

How do you run and how much money do you make out of it is about 70% of all revenue comes from that that such content anyone paying for staff to be there and it's all clearly labelled.

I think this is perhaps one of the differences as well between traditional Media owners who are bound by very stringent rules about what advertising they can take and how it has to be labelled and the digital wild west as it still is in many corners of the internet where you can put anything up and it is doesn't have to be labelled it.

It's easier to get away with something that passes under the guise of impartial advice, but actually is subtly driven by a commercial and Petticoats back so as big as I get the internet and data at the automat James you have his new venture.

It's called tortoise.

What is it? It's a comment saying by the way.

And we take a slow approach by the way, I have to say something because listeners to the media show more going to be riveted by a glimpse inside the studio cos when I sat down next to you.

I would very excited to see that you have a lovely night to yourself which says slow down usually contain Sue expletives.

It's got no reference whatsoever to tortoise.

It's just because I talk quite fast but my point is we we've created a week.

We tried to create a new kind of Newsroom a different kind of Newsroom and the Ethos of it is slow down wise up let's see if we could take a little more time to try and investigate what's really happening to try and understand the forces that are shaping our world and the argument behind it is that we think that people feel overwhelmed by information by what I think I was the daily noise, but also feeling the sense of a power cut that there's a bigger gap between the powerful and the powerless so our answer to that is not only to take her time on our investigations analysis opinion.

Bluetooth open up journalism to to physically open up on Newsroom to say become a member of tortoise and you can come in and take part in the conversations that we have but in everything we do have that spirit that say how can we listen to Our listen to people and go out of our way to hear from people go on a practice? What's the product if you become a member of tortoise what you'll get is 3 things.

You'll be able to participate in what we call a thinking in affected model on a newspaper leader conference as you said I was to be the editor of The Times one of the things that I love about that draw bowls at lunchtime.

Everyday a group of really smart journalist would come in and would argue out what's happening in the world.

What should we make of this case in Saudi Arabia what should we make about of the rise of veganism? How do we understand those things were thinking is imagine if you didn't just asked journalists to informal conversation imagine if you asked everyone and so we are opening their heart and that's the first.

Can you get you get a set of tickets to these thinking of that will hold opening on your contacts.

Ok? Every Minute is a daily stuff and a daily stuff on your phone we designed for the mobile phone.

We're going to be if you like a slow newsfeed so a daily edition it comes once a day 11:00 onto your phone and it's 5 pieces no more than that than that and there will be a mix of text and photography and films that try and give you a a clearer context and a clear point of view or what's happening in the world ok and some of them will be long pieces of narrative investor journalism, but it will be short and concise and give you a hope some perspective.

Hi just to be a celebrant III III III thing like this.

Thank you for the thing is that every three months you'll get tortoise quarterly which is a small book of big retail centre for journalism popular opinion very good luck to them but intelligent pieces about complex.

Checks for wealthy people is not an underserved part of the journalism ecosystem is brilliant and you should always listen carefully to what she says the two things that I think in response is in every Newsroom I've worked in we've thought a lot about the mix of spinach and cheese cake, so you have to if you're going to provide a service in use give things that you feel are really high fibre, but things that you love and enjoy so what will work at the moment is making sure that this is something that you enjoy and the second thing is I wonder about what Emily saying I think that if you look at the world if you look at the number of people going to book festival if you look at the people number of people watching great dramas.

Not least you know on TV and in people list people are really interested in learning and being part of a conversation and the if you look at one of the biggest and best names in in use in this country often underestimated The Economist

Is Craig cute global audience and what it considers to be a huge addressable market I can only ask you some quick fire questions Shallows will tortoise take position or something that breaks it.

Yes have your budget are you pro great auntie bracelet? Well, that's the reason why to sign up become a landlord by the girl.

Have you got a budget hire freelancers? I'll tell you the answer on brexit by the way the answer is that there are so many things that are really affecting people's lives that we're not hearing about because we're so confused, but you're glad it's going to be opinionated you have your budget to hire freelance.

Yes, how much money have you reached with raised enough money.

I think according to a business plan to take her safely into year 3 who got basically which are living things that we got enough money.

We think to prove that there's a journalism hear that worth doing who are back as on lead investor is a man called David Thompson who was the lead soldering Thomson reuters and Ernest a global now in Canada and my chairman is Matthew barzun.

Was the former US ambassador here.

Am I co-founder is Katie vanneck-smith? Who was the president of the Wall Street Gleneagle a small group of eight invested in total clean people in a personal capacity cake Robert Peston said earlier this month only had nearly time to give me Robert Peston said earlier this month about the BBC and breaks it the problem with the BBC is it put people on with diametrically opposed views and didn't give their viewers and listeners any help in assessing which one was the Looney one and which one was the genius impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to 2 people of whom one of them says the world is flat in the other says the world is round.

That's not balanced in Partridge Anderson you're in charge of using used during the referendum campaign.

How do you respond Watson firstly? This is a moment for the Tortoise mantra slow down wise up when you got a million half leftover broadcast live show hurry up so Robert knows that there is something cool.

That's so absolutely the BBC and any journalistic organisation that cares about accuracy and thoughtfulness knows that balancing a full song.

With an accurate one is not balance and it's misleading there are arguments that are political arguments that the job of a broadcaster is to represent and to make sure that the different views are properly hurt and that's what the BBC does.

We think and now my new capacity and Tortoise my view is that there's something incredibly valuable about trying to come to a clear point of view I got it wrong because the reasons that able to come to a clear point of view is when you try and work out what you think you're very quickly understand what you do and don't know and I think that is a process that really valuable ok.

We're going to have a robin on another can I yes? I know they don't worry you can see with by the idea this space a gap in the market and a market in the gaps.

Where my sleep ain't no you wouldn't know.

Caffeine Shampoo straight after clear james' find the model is not dissimilar to that the Canary equipro.

Call the website which also invite supporters to donate money and take part in events and editorial conferences at which council funding changes in my subscriptions more the future than your game.

I think it should be I think there are many brands that would love to be in a really high quality journalistic environment.

I think I pretended to be free or UFOs and James I know you're sticking around 4 at the podcast.

I've got just enough time to ask you out if there was a gap in the market for tortoise.

Why won't Rupert Murdoch your former boss and the master news peace in our time has spotted it already very much remember the media podcast is available online just search online for the media podcast and hit subscribe.

We're back at the same time next week.

Thanks for listening and bye.