Read this: Media Masters - Adrian Monck

Media matters with Paul Blanchard welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top but the media game Adrian monk managing director of the world economic forum the forum's annual conference in Davos brings international political leaders together with top entrepreneurs economist celebrities and journalist to discuss the most pressing issues facing the world and before joining the organisation.

He had an award-winning broadcaster.

It is reported for CBS news ITN and sky covering world changing events from the fall of the Berlin Wall to conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq in 1997 was the launch editor 5 news and is reporting of Dunblane and Bosnia and into royal television Society Awards after bidding farewell to television using 2005b head of the department of journalism at City University London and is cold written two books on the media Adrian thank you for joining me pleasure for pleasure so doing the forms double summit has become such a fixture.

Global leaders took us through what that week must be like for you must have you get any sleep at all, so that week starts on the weekend before and about 200 hours head up the mountain by train to Gala prepare davalos for the incoming assault at which is around 10000 people coming to Davos itself.

So like 30000 or support folks and this is in an Alpine son of Village that is actually designated as a city as the tallest city and your other highest city in Europe but it's a silly 12000 people 13000 people so it's population absolutely balloons during the week of Davos which is normally the third fourth weekend January and yeah, we will turn up and we transform the town into a conference centre for the most important people in the world which is something.

A logistical operation are never ceases to amaze me that we managed to somehow pull it off but every year we seem to and despite the hitches and the snafus and the the various ways in which that whole process and breeze get the two-and-a-half thousand people who will tell you that they're the most important person the world.

It's somehow works and it was an incredible logistical feet to pull off as you just said I mean just in Tims the security last year President Trump Darren and the rest I'm with very lucky.

I'm in it's a fantastic place to actually hold an event because it really teaches you how to deal with everyone from Regular folks to the kind of governmental level I mean the actual system in Switzerland is such that when you hold a meeting in Davos you have to have the support of the townspeople and the mayor and all the folks who live there in order to carry it off if you come to London horror, con.

You don't need to get permission from the parish council in Westminster in Davos because the way Swiss democracy works you have to actually go convince people they want to have this colour meeting they want to have this imposition on their lives for a week and then you have to go to graubunden council which is the next level up and then you have to go the Federal Government and talk to them so is an incredible kind of jigsaw of political movement required to actually hold the event but it's kind of a good thing because it means that you have to take into account the feelings of every single human being whose life is touched by this incredible inconveniences thrust upon them and get them on side and that's one of the great things about doing this event in Davos you know it's so it's really is something that needs everyone to get behind without their help.

You would be able to do it and it's developed a California mythical levels of importance in a tuna in modern parlance in a modern circles took us the what what actually goes on during the week.

I mean you know what is

Logistics, but you know what what goes on front of house and I imagine there's lots of interesting stuff that goes on behind the scenes to so there's a massive amount of panels organised first of all the meeting take place racing and people will say you will hang on a second ago.

This is one of those kind of feel good vague.

Kind of seems that doesn't mean anything be at what he bringing people together for an actually when it comes to convening everyone from people from from China to Argentina to the US two parts of Africa you're really trying to give them something to get their head around and so you need a theme that kind of allows people to looking and have a conversation so the first thing is if it sounds something is all-embracing general well.

That's because you have to have something all-embracing channel to get the kind of people what you get in Devil's to come along secondly those conversations have to be choreographed they have to be.

Organised they have to be produced if you like and so producing them is again another incredible kind of Rubik's cube of making sure that different people are in the same place at the same time that they understand what they can be talking about behind the scenes then you've got a whole ton of other events because those people around then organise individually so there will typically organised hundreds, if not thousands of bilateral meetings during the time Mary in Davos and you get for this one moment in January all of the Worlds by principal actors because he's all people who occupy positions responsibility one of the key things about coming to Davos is you have to be in a position of authority you have to be a political leader you have to be a heading in it and I owe you have to be heading a business.

You know there's no place for people who have retired or step down or moved aside.

You know people who they are all in The Thick of It

And so when it comes to actually meeting and discussing and kind of taking the temperature you come away from Dallas with a sense of what is top of mind for people and where are they in terms of the big issues of the day on the biggest use of the year I suppose which is why devil's kind of occupies the space that it does it say one time when people who would normally and transmit mode going to receive and that's quite powerful thing for those people to do for 3 or 4 days of the year in a small Swiss town, what have been some of the more memorable moments for you.

So far.

You know you asked me that my brain is like in a toilet flushes every time I do something so you know in terms of of what I recall from devil's past.

There's been so many different moments of a seeing things and hearing things that you change the way you think about problems about the world.

I guess you had the most recent.

One I was in China 4 weeks ago for a meeting we do meetings around the world not just in in Davos housing shyness right and your meeting in the Champions which get something like two-and-a-half thousand people to place in Shenzhen in China Tianjin beleza small town of 15 million people with a GDP per capita.

That's probably as high as anywhere in the UK outside London and Southeast difference in a small town of 15 million people to 3 frames our worldview doesn't it and sitting in there listening to a bunch of Chinese economists Peking Inn Chinese simultaneous translation talking about how there economic problems need to be addressed, really really interesting conversation hearing people talk about their priorities.

You should China be investing globally in what they call the belt and Road initiative or should they be spending money back home? It's still an economy with something like 40% of people in agriculture and there's a big argument going on with in China

I wish you won't hear too much about between people in the in the highest levels of the administration there wondering whether or not they need to turn their attention internally rather than externally so there is this kind of? Even China about what they do with their money where their should be going it's not just breaks.

It's not just the US pulling out maybe of international trade agreement signed to is wondering where it should be spending his money.

Should I be spending as money globally or should be spending his money at home and those that come together.

So they looking to connect with people like that to influence those decisions because of in order to be on receive mode for some of the attendees there.

There's not go off if you got to be some people on transmit mode on my favourite stories about about Davos itself is people being in receveur Avant razzmatazz when Nelson Mandela came in the 1990s and he had just taken office with the ANC and had a plan to basic.

The Institute a kind of communist style managed economy in South Africa and during divorce he was seated next to the Chinese Premier Inn Corley pairing and the Chinese Premier convinced him to abandon that plan and actually privatised that's African economy, so his initial idea to run it as a kind of East German system.

I was actually talked out to him by a communist Prime Minister which is kind of Extraordinary and they get it shows you some of the power that you can have when powerful people meet and talk to another and you know it will be lovely if each of us could have the same kind of influence you know if any normal economies to any normal individual can sit down for 2 minutes with Nelson Mandela and say that you've got to think again but sometimes it does require.

People had a certain level who can cut through and get through the somebody to actually be heard and be listened to and that I think is a factor of human life and human existence, but it is frustrating but it's also true and so that's something we contend with in Davos but also something that works to a little bit to our advantage.

We hope in making people concerned about issues like climate issues like a global inequality those kinds of things so you know we try and make it work for issues that count to state the obvious Innocence your job is incredible you whistle incredibly privileged to do such an important job them in the influence that you and all of the things that you must be able to take part in his incredible.

I think everyone who works for the four and feels.

It's a great privilege and it's incredibly stitution it started 50 years ago by a Swiss German professor Klaus Schwab and he still runs it today.

I mean he's an

Rihanna Jealous Guy he said in his early 80s and he's got no signs of stopping or slowing down and yeah, I think everyone who works there and there's now when I started with some 300 office now noticing like 800 people working for the forum.

I think everyone feels it is an extraordinary privilege because you get access to ideas access to organisations access to people the tree unparalleled and also an opportunity in the forums work which is really global to see it first-hand no change in Argentina change in Brazil change in Rwanda change in Burma are these are countries and economies that I kind of changing by yeah sometimes almost buddy hour in in Asia and so it is a great privilege and you can't take for granted you no speaking some money in your account.

Racing Great Yarmouth I certainly don't take it for granted your personal journey shortly, but I wanted to say that you communicate because changed dramatically over the last 5 years of using social media to connect with people far beyond the attendees now when I arrived at the forum one of the things that people said about it was that it was speaking secretive.

It was a little bit distant from people's lives people weren't sure went on there and so not being sure what went on people speculated about the kind of things that happened behind closed doors of the Illuminati ball canister tin foil hats and everything else and and so when I arrived.

You know there were a couple of things that that struck me about the four and one was that the change in social and digital media meant that there was an opportunity for organisations to tell their own story and the other was that the forum could be one of the kind of leading proponents of this kind of

Approach so coming out of the year of university world had a chance to go see her first time this incredible wave breaking over Media destroying brands and kind of wreaking havoc to the forum.

You know where with no real investment you can put on a Facebook page, but you can start a Twitter feed and you can you get content flowing indirect to an audience and build it from scratch that was a phenomenal opportunity.

I thought what I'm so go with the team that we've assembled in the course of past few years, what we've done.

It is build out our social presence you know we're not selling advertising we're not selling subscriptions.

So you know all of the problems that before folks who are in that position and I've been out my certainly feel for them.

I know a lot of them.

We don't find those problems.

You know we love being on Facebook we have something like 10 million people following.

Yes, I'm not just on in English language, but in French and Spanish bunch of other different ways.

You know we have to be my 5 million now on Twitter on a couple of different accounts.

We have we heading for a million on LinkedIn heading upwards towards three-quarters of Millie on Instagram so we found these platforms phenomenal in terms of communicating.

Not just what the forum dodgeball the forum thinks about there a new sort of way of touching an audience in a when you talk about the things that are going to shape the lives of people's children.

You know what they need to be educated in what they need to be caring about in the next 10 to 20 years.

This is a very powerful coming message people like that.

You know people share that people want to hear that and that cuts through a lot of the new cycling cut through a lot of the other noise.

That's going on out there and it really resonates and that's the kind of stuff that we've used to build up our presents on social media you are using.

Some of the forms content and reversion in it making it more popular making it less kind of polysyllabic an abstract and turning it into something people want to consume.

Especially of course video which for all the talk of the pivot to video that people moan complain about frankly is the driver of so much attention these days on every single platform you can imagine people say to me will sorry you know Facebook is not a platform that interesting play Facebooks a platform where people's partners their kids their family their friends share things ceo's have families friends partners.

You know this stuff gets to them as well.

I think that is very very hubristic if you like to think that there are platforms that do not get into people's heads.

No the Facebook is somehow separate or Instagram is somehow separate you will be amazed at the

So, how would people who said my kids told me about this report or you know a friend of mine do this to my attention in a Facebook post? This is how people learn about stuff in the modern age? You know it happened with the CEO of Nestle saw one of our pieces and you know it came through to him on Facebook not Response Team not no other group.

Just Direct that way that's where it's got past The Gatekeepers absolutely anything she the same thing on Twitter when you share things on Twitter people can react and interact with it immediately and now we have relationships now with governments which we never had in the past where ministers see stuff.

Come out they like it that Sharon fantastic for us and we'll so great.

We hope for them know.

It's a chance for them to learn about some of the work that we do see it and share it I mean these kind of this kind of multi-pronged approach.

I think it's kind of crucial for Communications in this day and age and it's not going away despite people's reservations about social media and

There are issues around it.

You know we've been on the other end of the kind of the you know troll and bought attacks are settled so yeah, I know it's something you have to take seriously I think if you miss out on the opportunity of talking to that audience directly understanding from them what they want what interests them.

I think you're really missing out on a massive part of today's communications landscape, but it doesn't just merely seem to have kind of turbocharged your reaches.

It was an organisation it also seems to me to have been quite transformative generally of the whole way that you become even more globally relevant.

I'd like to think that what is done.

Is is is open people up to a lot of content and discussion that made them might not seen before I think that's what's important.

I think you know we've been doing the global convention report now4cover century bony really in the last set of 5 to 10 years.

We had an ability to share with people in the way we can we've been doing the gender gap report for last 11.

And it is a report that looks at the role of women globally and Compares their position.

These are the men in a whole bunch of different ways from politics 32 economics through to social standing etc and education and in that report has just gone for normally viral in terms of its impact and power because our ability to put down line and also our ability to understand that it's what appeals to people has been transformative for us.

You know before it was one report amongst in a we produce something like 150 or 40 year now those reports renew the comparable got the most attention because that was a light fixture a landmark report.

It was only only looked at the response that we saw that you know this the gender gap report was an absolute sleeper hit for us and could be used and leverage and a whole bunch of different ways to really make an important point about women's empowerment and women's rights which is a crucial.

Issue in today's economy as well as being in our basic moral issue, and it just image just taken off an incredible way, so saadia.

Zahidi is our chief economist a brilliant young Pakistani woman and she has worked on it report over 11 years and every year that comes out.

It's the gift that keeps on giving you know people want to see if they've moved up if they've move down.

Where's the country in terms of global rankings.

You know winning the middle east put their country report on the door of the officers to show people who come in where they're going up where they gone down.

It says campaign till it's an activist all just a fantastic thing and it so I think for asking to understanding where the audience relates to our materials really important and you know that just one example I suppose that there are other things we do we should much more niche and where you know you're not going to get a massive pick up if you doing a report on the kind of impact of cryptocurrency.

Feel something on the blockchain.

It's not going to go absolutely 100-percent viral because the audience for that remain to come and niche audience to the smaller audience Beano without understanding who's interested in it and where they're interested in it.

You can't really understand where to put your content and how to treat it and how do you decide what to focus on I mean you mentioned there that every year devil's has a theme that you've put global inequality at the top of the political agenda, but you know that there are so many things that you could focus on and you don't want to focus on everything because any photos on nothing so what's the process to decide given that there's so many competing things wrong with the word frankly that need to be addressed sure I'm in love with a small organisation.

I mean 800 people can only make out a scratch on the kind of global agenda in some in some respects, but what we do is an organisation is wheat triage a whole bunch of different businesses corporations governments and iOS and we because of my contact with them have a sense.

Where they can come to some kind of consensus or agreement and what we do is we try and produce action around things that we know will work.

That's both really interesting and also really frustrating because there's a bunch of things in the world you think my diary now.

If you'd only just bags on heads together and make it happen we can change these things fundamentally and yet if you move the speed of some of the slowest actors you have to kind of Edge things long incrementally to some of the things we've worked on for example institution of emotions plastics and trying to move the barrier on on getting government's understand.

This is an issue of global Commons this is something that no single government can actually deal with your the oceans and not managed by the US or by the UK or by China they managed international unmanaged internationally so we try to get action on that because we seen that people beginning to understand just how disastrous it is and the impact of having on all of us for the plastics getting into almost.

Everything that we touch everything we drink another area we concentrate on his climate and if you look at some of the biggest drivers of climate change beef production palm oil production paper pulp production.

How can you move the dial on all of those things funnily enough big corporations very good at managing their supply chains if you work with some most corporations and some of the government's free sample government in dignity in Indonesia you can actually get very big corporations to trackback.

Look at what they doing on the ground and take action and that's what we've done with a bunch of businesses and a bunch of governments to try and achieve some changes that built into the way we do business and that kind of change is both real and also works and it happens a level which is practical and this is something where you see government.

Increasingly moving because in the old days.

We still look at government and state governments need to legislate for this.

We need an international treaty on something and that's what changes the world.

That's what makes things happened to the old status way of doing things we increasingly know that that that's not what works what you need is a whole bunch of different stakeholders to be engaged you need people to understand that they need a steak and is she need corporations to understand that they need to do something about it.

You need independent organisations to buy into this so the activists can also relate to the kind of action is being undertaken what many global corporations and have you know annual turnover in valuations bigger than many countries GDP is there their huge actors on the global stage should I know it's important when it comes to international agreements that they're not you're not just encouraging businesses to shop around for regulatory arbitrage to look at some place for the can get a better deal.

If you like in terms of Rio climate agreements or something like that.

She got to bring them in.

The Fold in terms of these can a big issues and so where we seen that happened.

We and where we see the opportunities that happen.

We can achieve quite a lot by bringing people together in a very focused way and moving the bar in a direction that delivers progress with a small p when it comes to the kind of radical change in the world where an event list organisation weren't evolution reorganization not a revolutionary one and maybe there are some things in the world and in revolutions and not evolution but having been a walk respond to my previous life.

You know I'm a big believer in that talking about things is a better way to solve problems then fighting over them and statin.

Do you ever make an assessment of the people that that visit that wasn't come to speak because it in a sense of being judged by the type of person that the army now obviously Donald Trump Kim at recently, but he's the present the United States could you take the view that it's better to have them then have some influence Li

McDonnell use his debut for repairs to tell global business leaders that they were held in contempt by Henry voters, but it won't you know he was there still an opportunity to influence him sure I think the important thing is that people come prepared to have a dialogue and I think that's key in terms of actually who we having the room we have to deal with governments of every single stamping every single shade because the moment you start excluding people know your list of people who can attend shrinks and if I was to put together a diverse list of people I like you.

I would probably be a very small parties.

I can hold in a kind of fondue Hut somewhere in the middle of town.

So you have to have a lot of people there and you'll have to have people who powerful and you have to have people are running things and that gives you a certain kind of person I mean for example in global government 15% of of ministers are women so if you bring together a lot of Cabinet ministers you get 85.

Central government and if you look ceos Fortune 500 CEO it's a tiny tiny percentage of them are women someone did a survey Eurocell I think they said there more CO2 call Dave mortiers called John than there are women ceos of those top companies and these are all things that kind of skew the folks you coming to Davos you have to deal with the world as it is not how you wanted to be but that's part of it and also making them understand that that's not good enough and there are some changes you can put on if you can undertake so for example we asked some of the big businesses who comes to make sure they have a senior c-suite woman as part of the delegation because without that you know it's a little lever.

We can apply to them when they come to Davos we can't do that with government's we can't turn around to government and demand that they sent a woman Prime Minister of a woman Foreign Secretary but it's becoming more and more obvious I

As we progress that this incredible imbalance in general representation at all levels in society is something that we need to deal with urgently and yeah, my hope is certainly that we can get something like that shines a light on there and we can move faster and quicker in the direction of making sure that you know half of those ceos are women within the next 10 to 20 years.

I just get over this incredible divide at the moment.

Is there ever a risk that doubles itself overshadows the other valuable were that there will be going to wait for him.

I mean at Devil's came on my radar.

Seven or eight years ago now.

I actually don't know you lit the time that they the form was just the vehicle that produce Davos it was on a year or two into my curiosity darling that you do all this all this other stuff as well.

So it's you know.

It's a problem success Davos is an extraordinarily successful event it captures going to Global attention for you know week of the year and there in our free.

The mind to the fair wonder if you know I have two three or 4 days in the Alps and then I go home and retire for 50 weeks relaxing but it's not quite as easy as that we due to events on with every single continent apart from Antarctica and those events are all year round to your something like 9 or 10 major events every year we also producing as I said it like 150 different reports on a whole range of different topics so we're a machine for kind of producing what we like to think of is impact and that machine, keeps rolling 365 days a year 24/7 the social media operation that we run runs 24/7.

You know we keep on moving on the impact the Devil's housing terms of measurable impact you can see a huge spike in terms of Media activity and presents every year around January but actually increasingly the rest of the year for us.

Because we've become this 247365 operation is beginning to get more and more important so that we what we've learnt is if we just treat ourselves as an events organisation and we just show up once a month somewhere different then you don't have that engagement with your audience you have to show up all the time you have to be present all the time.

I think that's another lesson that this Media environment offers to communicators.

Which is to say you've got to be always on and I think a lot of people very scared about that because when I started the form is very nervous about going to the editorial space because the risk of upsetting one of our stakeholders the risk of saying something that was very inappropriate or wrong additionally we operate the space where everything gets signed off by a whole bunch of people if you're talking to an oil company if you're talking to him Greenpeace if you're talking to a government and yeah all of those different.

Does need to have a say on something before you can release it into the Wild so therefore is very cautious about the way operates in that respect and so for it to become if you like a broadcaster was a big big change for the organisation and we've had to develop some pretty tough Processes to put them behind that to make sure that we don't embarrass the organisation that we don't get into trouble that we don't end up here running around breaking things and the most of those processes are just good old-fashioned editorial processes that would be familiar to anyone who works in a newspaper or website Ora broadcast news operation.

They just old-fashioned checks balances and systems that mean that are content gets looked at more than once probably more than twice by people who know what they're doing and presumably your background in broadcast journalism is one of the reasons that you were higher than one of the great but you know in terms of your dick.

Things that you can bring to the role, it's hugely beneficial.

I wish I knew I was hired actually I think they're not be thinking maybe the questions of Sounds rude, but will go with it.

Yeah, I do wonder sometimes.

I think it's because they didn't want some music PR person and I'll be me out but I can't be your successor then can I was running the City University Jonathan viner time and I think it was because I had this Cove Little Dream of producing a news organisation within another organisation and to see if that could work and if that could actually produce some results.

I think that was kind of what term what got them interested in in me particularly.

Yeah, it seems to have worked to Surbiton I've always been slightly bemused by the fact that other people don't seem to have dived into that world as quickly as we have yeah, we're in early start rite.

And now we use that early start to build up a position that now I think pretty strong in terms of our ability to kind of get content and push it out but term yeah.

I you know I'm always kind of amazed and amused that more people aren't diving into this kind of space and and make it their own other mission to make sure the voice of young people and social entrepreneurs are prominent in the forms work part of my brief is I look after what we call our Communities their global shapers who people in their Twenties young global leaders.

I'm all ready for those people.

You don't like to ask shuffle under under the dog at 29 and social entrepreneurs who people who are filling incredible gap in our societies everywhere from Latin America to Africa to Asia and Europe in the US giving those people assay is an important part of where the forum is right.

Big is traditionally the forum looked at stakeholders in quite old fashioned way when we were founded back in the 1970s the idea was that stakeholders I should explain the form is founded by Professor Klaus Schwab back in 1971.

He was there a young business school professor and he'd written a book saying that business was more than just stayed shareholder value.

It was about stakeholders.

So it was about Labour unions.

It was about the people you supplied was that your customers it was about the community in which you operated it was about everything that business could touch and that idea can I came out of real blaze and I mean now you took this type of double bottom line at triple bottom line and so on and so forth but this is this was truly groundbreaking anytime yeah, it was a bit was a very different conception of capitalism, then you know this or red in tooth and Claw approaching 1970s people.

Open Freeman and it was a bill if you like on Germany's reconstruction 1950s and Klaus grew up between Germany and Switzerland people in 1938 still remember the war and he saw both the destructive effects of nationalism within Europe itself, but also the way in which every single element of German Society has been mobilized to rebuild it in a Germany suffered in a way that is very hard for us here in the UK to understand.

You know whole cities destroyed and leveled reduced to really just do a map on the ground in terms of structure.

She can't just rely the private sector to reconstruct a city you can't just rely on government to reconstruct cities in and bring life back to a society got to have everyone in a lending a hand and putting their bidding so classes in section.

I think was built around that and one of the Missing Pieces for him.

I'd

He came to understand in the last 15 years of soap on the back of travelling globally and and seeing some very dynamic social change was at the missing piece in this was was the voice of The generational Voice the wheel missing out the generational stakeholders for getting a bunch of 50 year old people to discuss the problems of the world they have a 15 to 20 years time Horizon they don't bring that kind of half a century 75 year lens that somebody born in 2000 can bring to a discussion so getting a stakeholders from their 20s to 30s involved in his can a conversation for Super important to him and so one of the ways who's done that is through a global shapers movement which is now 6 years old and has representation in something like 400 different cities around the world.

I was in Kenya this this year in the summer and we've just set up a hob in a refugee camp in kakuma in northern, Kenya

Are we stop first hob Insider refugee camp incredible and will be bringing the curator of that hard to Davos in 2019 in January when we can get the visa issues worked out and get him safe and sound out of Kenya and and then into Switzerland so you know it's been an incredibly transformative thing for us, but it's connected US into real people in real places which is something that previously we hadn't been plugged into and it's allowed us to bring powerful people into those places to SE1 the reasons we were there in Kenya was we took the group of young global leaders people in their 30s and he took them into a refugee camp for a week now this group consisted of paraguay's housing minister for education Minister from France who grew up in a national am very successful young woman in a Wither with a French Arab background.

We had a guy who's Ugandan who was.

Irresponsible for peacebuilding there was a massive campaign against child soldiers his brother was sold into sort child soldiery and he's led the campaign against there it is the understanding Elise woman who is traffic to become a computer coder who now teaches young women around the world to code computers incredible group of young people brought them all to this refugee camp working with unhcr fantastic hosts and really allowing us to see every aspect of the council innovation and where we can make a difference and building their into the Education if you like the Civic education of global leaders.

I think is another really important role of form has to play because we do have an opportunity to say to people look this is not just an academic top baby.

This is not just something is a reading policy papers unit 1 we talk about refugee issues.

If you haven't had a chance to go and see that are closed not just the one of these visits when you fly in you, can you know you get wheels out there?

Weapons were Land Cruiser in and have a photo printing go back.

Yeah, when you've actually live there for a week and spent time with his people that is a real difference is really important and that education is I think you know key to helping people understand and make the case because you know it's not something all of us can do we can all go and spend a week in a in a refugee camp, but when it comes to free sample the Refugee issue in Europe and when you hear the talk about 44 refugees.

No one knowing where they get you can go people asking about schooling the resources needed to you know to help his people the Kenya's dealing with 200000 people just in one camp moving from South Sudan moving from Uganda moving from the windy from all over Africa so the scale of the issue.

They're facing is a massive massive issues compared to the situation that we we scratch our heads over in Europe over a few hundred people struggling to find their way to a better life.

And you think in terms of television news and the international coverage.

Do you think it's getting better from when you write enn? We had raggio man in the chair couple of weeks ago and he was saying because of the advent of satellite phones and the internet you have the ability to just get to Aries is easier now.

It is easier.

I mean when I started television use the war Afghanistan was was going on with the Jardine in a not the water or familiar is now the one where in a bin Laden was on the good side and we're all fans of other people fighting the USSR and teams will go in there and disappear for 3 weeks and they would literally leave a note and say yeah, we'll be in touch in 3 weeks time good luck goodbye and it off you go and then you wouldn't hear cinema for three weeks might have yeah, maybe a couple of days ago by Ann and finally 8LX report through from some hotel somewhere saying outlander.

We've got a stuff back will be out in a day or so and you think they're

Have you haven't heard from someone in 45 minutes in a my god? You are they alright? What's going on? What's happened? And so some of the Freedom that people had to go off and report and to find stories and to do things some of that disappeared, but on the other hand the incredible facility that that phone has cameras and video recorders bring his changed our world in the stunning.

Why are you know? It's different.

I don't know if it's better.

The money has certainly reached out of television news nothing that is a terrible shame for people who love the median of TV Newsham who loves broadcast news itself.

I'm one of those you are resources in meeting isn't it? Going to be rain in Britain to know that sadly? It means fewer resources it also means of smaller audience it also means in a sense of change in the kind of people who were doing that job when I join television news you know Alistair Burnett have been the editor of The Economist

Television user's fantastic mechanism for very clever people to translate their worldview into something televisual and popular and there wasn't a sense that that involve necessarily dumbing everything down there wasn't a sensor that involve can I go into the basement in order to get your audience and I think some of that in the world of television user's been lost.

I think what's opened up is an incredible landscape of Opportunity where you can now for example hear from experts in different areas on blogs you can hear from them in podcasts.

You can hear him sometimes in the Rain video cast they do and so yeah, there's a plethora of Voices now that you would possibly have heard of 25 years ago, but I do think to some extent you know from me as a kid.

He had television and radio educated me in a silent.

You know not slime.

Richard hoggart the uses of literacy, you make the 1950s about being a scholarship boy growing up in a for me.

That's still resonated in the 1970s and I was a kid with John craven's Newsround for me and I felt like they brought me out.

They gave me a worldview in a sitting in my little kitchen listening to the radio it can and brought me this world outside of my experience and so yeah, I've got a huge kind of sentimental feeling about broadcast Media the probably a lot of people who just listen to it all consumer accidentally don't have but yeah for me.

It was part of medication and part of what made me who I am and when you were growing up there watching that television.

Did you wanted to be part of it? Did you always want to be a journalist even in those early years? Yeah? I'm basically like a lot of people.

I wanted to escape.

You know and so you look at people on television hearing Wars are in dangerous places in a few grow up in Great Yarmouth you know I mean is dangerous.

Friday night is that better the Wetherspoons yeah, it's not it's not a place synonymous with excitement and you know for me.

I just wanted to see see the world in again denied the drive to London was like 4/2 hours and I was a kid so that they London yeah, so the idea that you were kind of going anywhere was an idea.

That was kind of wrapped up in this little box in the corner of the room United kit home for having a Radio 1 at night you listening to all sorts of Egypt listen to radio Moscow you get the world service you get all these things that were different to get Radio 4 in the other coming normal stuff you got online and yeah, that was part of my education and it was usually exciting the idea of this big big world out there that you could kind of listen to and see and maybe one day coming dream of being part of I won't you rather great but can you trust the media and I was before the rise of social media which kind of almost prophesized?

The rise of fake news I think M1 right can you trust the media? I was really profoundly struck by the way that people in mainstream Media looked at Trust poles as a means of endorsing credibility you know for anyways.

Been in journalism credibility comes from one thing it comes from your methodology from your working practice.

I know from years experience.

I'm sure you know too.

There are some journalists who always get the story.

There is some people whose work is too good to be true and those people and not playing by the rules of the rest of us played by you can only cut corners for so long.

Yeah, it's getting harder now.

I think but you know you saw it with Jason Blair in the new time you saw it with a whole bunch of people Johann Hari re yeah, Johann Hari exactly and you know those kind of that kind of corner cutting didn't used to be.

And also in the world of Media to Shankly I think you know journalists, can I covered up for each other and so you're there are plenty of stories about journalists fighting staff not doing stuff right that were discussed in pubs, but never made it outside of that environment so people didn't know you had a thing is what concerns me about German cm is how you do it and I think if you think about the sort of trust stuff what the BBC would turn out was where the most trusted source of news or you know you got a trusted and I was just rebelling against idea as a way of looking at Germans maliki reporting because yeah when I look back on trust and where we get the idea of trust from you know if it's not from from what we do.

Where does it come from and actually income for a very funny place which is it comes from a guy used to work for lorry.

Who ended up running the American newspaper association and he saw that newspaper circulation in the 1960s was starting to decline and so he wanted in the face of television advertising to say that there was something special and something different about advertising newspaper.

So he cannot decide if polling on trust.

You know that newspaper advertisements Adidas trusted newspapers more than a trusted television, so therefore you could command a premium in your advertising in newspapers and said that can a Built This infrastructure around trust and the other thing was the Gallup had started polling people that trust in institutions and this whole kind of infrastructure if you like was built around this concept of trust that no one ever wrote down.

No one ever come to explain but became a kind of part of the polling history and the kind of marketing history of television radio newspapers as part of the advertising.

The structure and this was the story behind why Trust became so important and it struck me as being a story that can I needed to be told little bit because people didn't understand why they were suddenly being after the trusted things you know do you trust a football results in the newspaper and I'll see you there and do you trust a stock prices and Financial Times and it prints those that no one else you that even the very asking the question can undermine Trust will leave me asking question kind of his is almost the framing of it is a is a bizarre and rubber daft framing.

When did when did you stop beating your wife? So it doesn't go away Trust doesn't go away because he knows someone else you can you trust the White House will do you trust newspapers were actually they asking you and is it a useful or a worthwhile question to even stop and consider and I think if you think about it in terms of advertising which is where it comes from then you can start to see that actually.

It's a card premium is a

Attempt to premium brand a certain Media mixing medium if you like and that is where Trust kind of enters into the whole dialogue about television radio and newspapers and Ian are people still obsessing over trust this still Trust report out every year is famous PR companies that produce some and the Debate has not taken it anywhere we haven't learnt anything about what produces trust and what what makes things trustworthy if that we know that the most sceptical and least trusting people you know the more educated people are people learning critical thinking at universities your those people are amongst the least trusting and yet.

There's some of the heaviest Media users there are an existence.

So this whole idea is kind of you know based on something in the fallacy of authority which is what you want is acquiescence you want people to sit there and nod and you know go along with what you're saying actually what we need.

Small people that kind of skills that journalists have which is critical thinking scepticism healthy scepticism in a Knockout corrosive cynicism, but can I have a wanting to test things and that's the kind of society that we want we want people with those sort of skills not a society where you take everything at face value what you know you just go along with it because it's trusted and that was while trying to get across and can you trust the media? I think you know to be honest will be seeing now is some of that coming to the for you.

Look at some of the journalism of people like bellingcat which is in simple website.

We should people haven't heard of it should go and check out which does a lot of fact-checking he has started by the guy in the Midlands who was interested in finding out where some of the bombs and weapons in Syria coming from and you now ended up doing his research online and proving that a lot of the story is it coming out about these attacks were were rubbish and so

No, he's built incredible infrastructure out of that there's a bunch of other people snakes in the States and and many more can a fact checking sites who set up to actually push journalism and challenge some of the country's history authorities out there.

That's the kind of thing that's exciting to me and I think he's kind of great in terms of that kind of professional scepticism in terms of that you're not taking stuff on trust and you know it is put journalism on its metal really because a lot of journalists don't bring that rigor to the work and you know and they've been called out and it's good that journalists are held to account for their work and have you known collectively raising the game but do not feel disheartened at there seems to be a breakdown in trust more generally so you've got people like the supporters of Donald Trump Reddit brexiteers.

Who almost that you know it's a scorched Earth type thing that they just completely against it in an emotional sensor much that they almost can't be reasoned with I think what you've seen with.

Social media is the creation of communities in a very very new and interesting way and we are only just beginning to understand the dynamic of that if you like, you know is that what's the great line people used to say about some politicians.

You know he says what you are thinking.

You know and that can a sense that you know you've had to self send Sarah keep your thoughts to yourself hear that you couldn't even say them in the pub now.

That's gone away now.

Yeah and for some people byways been incredibly liberating.

You know you look at the kind of the groups online with people have you know thought they were by themselves especially kind of video games of sufferer support groups for people who had diseases where they didn't know where to go to for help and suddenly.

There was connect with the community for people suffering the same way you can share notes on experiences on what drugs work on what's going on with them.

What kind of therapies helpful your that's a fantastic benefit that this technology is.

But also it's been an incredible vehicle for hate.

You know people who you know if you the only not seeing the village you know guess what you now discovered.

There's a whole bunch for you out there that you can work with and this double edge Sword of can a social media this connectivity and creation of new Communities has also given us a bunch of Communities that we try to keep out of mainstream, Society and its impact enable them and we're only just come into a sense of understanding whether or not we want to do something about regulating that you know this is something that we've got to confront and he's just having starting to happen now with people becoming aware that the rules and regulations that we expect people to abide by in everyday life in the kind of Communities that we live in Rosa gonna have to apply to the Communities we inhabit when we go onto a devices mobile or desktop or otherwise would it has Society changing ramifications because if you look at someone like.

Tommy Robinson obviously a horrible guy hit for character is he a journalist? He certainly got a huge following and if he is a journalist he certainly been held rightly took to the legal standards that Germany should be I hate you can't film defendants walking into a card saying their rapists when they're currently on trial for rape that is contempt of court a journalist would know that has there been trained in that they couldn't say that they could report what was happening on the Travel this certainly couldn't presume guilt and yet.

You've got all of these people that have self empowered isn't innocence and they've got huge audiences for nothing if you go back and look at your the history of Ghana popular culture, you know 500 years ago who were the people making no it was people who were Preachers people going around Gathering audiences together firebrand people like you know on one hand Martin Luther but also people who can whip up a crowd into a frenzy.

You're there are countless accounts in history of people winding up more.

The Gordon riots in London in the end of the eighteenth century famously started by from landlord, who stood up and Galloway rally Dan and got the London mob going only this wonderful examples in history where this happens what you hope is that we move forward and progress beyond that into a more cultured into a more educated into a more liberal society if you like and I think what people like Tommy Robinson a reminder of them probably Katie Hopkins to is it that that progress hasn't come as fast as we might perhaps like and I think you know if you go back into the history of free sample radio you find people on Us radio 1930s and 40s doing exactly the same kind of thing that you see those folks doing today which is winding people up which is using hate Fear and Loathing is kind of emotional engagement tools.

I mean we know pretty much that what works in terms of grabbing attention.

Making people angry you know Hunter S Thompson called his books Fear and Loathing yeah, I think the Daily Mail works in the principle that has to make someone angry every morning or at least it used to until very very recently and those that kind of emotion.

You know that you're an old southern, Eastleigh prodded your that's been a big part of the media landscape for as long as I can remember and one of the great lessons.

I've learnt in doing my job.

Is that it doesn't have to be like that.

You know we get audiences for our material telling you about stuff in an informative colloquial the fact-based way and we don't have to make be buying grey or bitter.

We don't have to engage in AD hominem attacks you calling people out.

We don't go around shaming people and there is a role for shaming people.

I'm sure about his most people know in our own lives.

You're being made to feel ashamed is not a great Motivator

The change in behaviour you know if we actually want to achieve change looking at the long-haul educating people education is it is a process is not going to deliver instant change anger is fantastic as my lighting a match you know you suddenly develop is certainly have a feeling about something that you want to do something about your suddenly very very angry about something and that instantaneous nurse in that kind of it.

You know wonderful feedback mechanism that comes out of angry journalism is something a lot of jealousy kind of addicted to I think is the only way to get people to pay attention the kind of more informative educational approach is longer term and the payback is slower and may be harder to measure but that's the kind of return.

I think we need to be moving towards and it said that it's the return that you know I see being reflected in readers around the world when they come to what we're talking about and you know they are interested in educating themselves.

And educating their kids and you know better remix elf and understanding more about the world, but somehow I think that to me give me a great deal of optimism about where we going because you know we are becoming more educated society we are globally with a coming my educated and the biggest single Factor in in raising people out of poverty and in a pin in combating global inequality in a past quarter century has been global Primary School education.

You know everyone in the world now you and you can see it when you go to Africa you can see it when you got a small village in rural China you know the provision of primary school education is lifted people have gives them that grounding that they can build on and do something with the lives.

We don't show me the buy and Algeria demand will show me the girls I'll show you the woman I mean this is you know if I look at for example in the women I was talking about Mary and Gemma who runs on the kodi and Mariam

Are taught herself her English when she was 16 at wits of to read and write at 16 to the self decoder 17, you know the transformation of powers of education are fantastic and no for me for my experience of being a professor for 5 years.

You know I think you're on the cusp of a real educational Revolution because I think people becoming too are coming to understand now a lot of education is warehousing alive.

It's credentialing.

I when you actually make people when you actually give people the tools to understand some of the things that are being taught in beautiful old buildings with lovely wood panelled Interiors actually taking out compare the god of Oxford to Cambridge is the the Ivy League colleges and do better for themselves and that Revolution is going to be fundamental cause a lot of people who've invested thousands and thousands of pounds tens of thousands of pounds in their children.

Occasion nac kids coming out who have studies stuff online for the hungry and who going to gobble up the opportunities that they hope their kids would have and I'm I'm speaking as a father is in a shell Daft Monkeys gigs University and college, but yeah, it's a revolution is coming and I think probably long overdue Adrian has been hugely enjoyable conversation.

I've learnt a huge amount.

Thank you ever so much free time.

Thank you very much are right angles podcast in association with big things Media