Read this: Media Masters - Stephen Wright

Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game sound on my Steven Wright multi award-winning journalist and associate news editor of The Daily Mail the peppers crime desk in 1996 he became prime editor and in 2010 associate news editor during this time he reported on a number of high-profile cases including the Soham murders and the Harold Shipman case his career has been dominated by the death of Stephen Lawrence the then unsolved murder.

He first covered in 1997.

He spearheaded the daily mails justice for Stephen campaign and his dog and reporting became Central to the enquiry into the case and also The Killers convictions in 2012 Steven thank you for joining me pleasure glad to be you was leaving let's start with Stephen Lawrence then if we may tell us about how that whole case came to be on your red and walk us through the whole journey one in 1996.

I was Sunday crime desk as you as you just spelt out in the open air and I was looking at the murder of a doctor call Jane Francis

Scope in North London Tavern do you know so earlier and I got to know a lawyer for the family of the victim they were disappointed with the without the net handle her murder and the lawyer for family as she was a partner of Imran Khan for lawyer for the Lawrence family at the time.

I wasn't taking any Close interests in in the Lawrence case that time but in rank up telling me you know you should you should really look at the case and so I did my own research investigations and fast forward to January I think it was in January February 1997 and there was the inquest into Stephens murder Wendy 5 prime Suspects basically put two fingers up of Justice and said nothing and off the back of that the editor of July famous front page the campaign was launched.

Text Dave basically cu, presumably shed you're ready to heal sense of outrage at the that these guys have got away with it.

You haven't person would she didn't have the profile then prior to the inquest was high profile, but I got involved the profile of the case in went 10 fold-up them there after and the outrage the public was there to see what came next then well the day after the famous front page Daily Mail front page called the murderers.

I got called into his actors office and was told basically you know we want to keep this going we can watch campaign unit 3 young reporter asked or told basically.

This is your story of the great opportunity, so we we day after day 4 weeks running stories about Stevens murder.

Injustice of it takes obtains video of the to the suspects to hoover Suspects hundleby the police video it was horrifying of course.

It was said the danger that there might be some legal action against the paper and get a tooth pulled a computer see spoke about that was a very real fear.

Thank you.

I didn't happen action and the campaign Menton will be forced to close relationship with the family any at that moment.

Did you did you have a sense that you know just how far this was going to go and just how did when can I meet you got to say the least pushback from Old site really didn't you least you can omit? I didn't know it was it was a campaign for Justice initially and you go where the story takes you in any store UK just waiting it took us in Terraria switch.

I wasn't expecting to go into I was basically a new crime report to the time going to be in the job of the year and I got I was trying to get contacts was the Police federation weren't happy with my reporting.

They thought that was unfair they thought he was surf summer not to be trusted that the police had got it right that was difficult I was difficult I would looked at one of the prime suspect he was ultimately convicted of murder David Norris his dad was a notorious gangster, Clifford Norris and I remember someone calling me later to lay tonight as I can a court case where you've been controversially quitted.

I got a call from someone had witnessed at court case who was something really bad at happened.

He should have been convicted of attempted murder.

You hadn't been and I basically morning just to be careful about Clifford Norris he was in jail.

I think at the time but just to be careful about UPS

In the family too too much, I don't think looking back that was anything to be scared of that that night I do recall I've my car was parked on the fifth floor of the multi-storey next to the Daily Mail and it was like a scene from All the President's Men sort of understand overdramatic.

I Was Alone about 10:30 my cards on the top floor and I suddenly thought about what that person is just told me couple of hours earlier to be careful and it's quite quite chilly main really and that populate reaction as the risk you take that's new people and there was roundabout bad people and you must have had a really strong sense of Justice that you had to stand up for Stephen's memory on this of course when we wanted to as a paper and there's a journalist he wanted to do or we could and other understood out the Daily Mail

Giving the Met just did a half-assed job and that the analysts say the claims of institutional racism and sound but what do you think was the fundamental problem? I think it was a very poor investigation because Steven was black that is a sentence of thing I thought about many times over the years there was an element clearly.

There was an element of that.

I would agree but also I think it was a very poor investigation and I want to speak the findings of the Macpherson enquiry later and no way the only thing I don't think it was just about Steven being black.

I think it was just an appalling investigation and I put the put that in Context I would say that have been worse investigations where the police have got Justice I think it was a lot of good came out of Stevens terrible terrible murder the Met were very sloppy and in the aftermath of that case they were in denial.

About what they got wrong house sloppy, they were how poor they were to the family and you know please senior police officers going ahead with weekends off handing over the baton tomorrow, so no one took ownership of that case in the early days with them agree with Doreen Neville the lawyers.

Is there wouldn't be solvable case but for those terrible errors and then in the early days of the enquiry.

So yeah, it was your shopping and I also just coming back to me now.

I remember there was in late.

97 there was Herne Kent police do the investigation into a Lawrence case on behalf of the police Watchdog answer.

Please complete throw to the time and I was called up to meet Turnbull condom and conditioner and had a one-to-one with him who was really short.

I previously there'd be no whitewash into the

Into the Lawrence case which has given them and see not as a clean bill of health.

I think he was really really shocked about how bad it was thing out of the first time.

He really got it and got it and of course.

What came out in the first enquiry was even worse and you became close to the Lawrence family for over the years of professional relationship with him and then I got on well.

I meant to say you know I think they are appreciative for the papers done, so as I'm concerned just doing odd jobs to my colleagues and Troy compilations have done over the years now.

We have a real respect for their dignity and courage and strength and hasn't been easy for them.

So Yahoo good for a good good relationship and depression relationship as well.

I hope I continue to learn from this now.

Didn't make the same mistake now.

I didn't things have genuinely improved.

I think the police is a better place to live.

Deal with you should have race and diversity is result Lawrence case and so yeah, I would I would say they have that they're better and I do know you it's a bit of the cliché, but I think it's very true indicates success of commissioner say that the electron Police today is far more representative of London and London is and it is and that's one of the benefits of one of those two things for just come out the Landscape at the Met and other people's are far more modern and much more sensitive to the needs of different Communities against Ross real positive question, how did you get into this? I mean we had Mark williams-thomas sitting there.

We got Martin Brunt coming on soon.

You know we've got a runner kind of crime reporters, but what you doing is incredibly important, but it's also you didn't with human tragedy on out on a moment by moment basis, I stumbled into it really I was young report on my joined the staff of the male in.

November 1993 snow sometime I go yeah a few months.

I got the I got offered the job.

I've had been sent down as a young reported to Southend ok serial killer, Ireland, just been caught and I was sent down there with the legman for are just English crime correspondent Peter Rose and I've received two done one on that job doing background on the case and go to go to drop off a few months later.

I was about to leave the paper.

So I don't really want to carry on shifting within contract female Malinois yeah.

Oh yeah few months later February 1994 midnight from the news desk.

Can you get down to Gloucester tomorrow couple of bodies have been found in the garden?

I went down there and I came back about six weeks later to London I will see you as a Fred and Rose West case so I went down there and the story just got bigger and bigger.

It was an extraordinary case the cover as a young reporter know they were Frederick was already in custody roses in the safe house for a few weeks because the police initially believed at that point that she might have been in this one to the gather the evidence and issues in the safe house and it clearly was bug to Hell and their weekend.

They were taking their time together the evidence to to lay charges on here, then.

He went from 50 days to 3 bodies found and then suddenly it went up to 9 bodies.

Goodnight confessions from Fratton destroy.

Just got bigger and bigger so that I I covered the west case and other reporters came on when I was fascinated by it as a young reporter you want to work on big stories and the following.

Fred killed himself on January 1st 95 days near there wasn't understand my wife the night before and I'll sitting on the doorstep in Sussex on another job and I got a call from one of the people need to say Fred West killed himself in the team detectives on the case you're allowed to rain detective novelist having having is New Year's Day rest and be thankful Amy took my call the troops back to to to London and fast forward a few months of the trial of Winchester in in the autumn of 95 couple weeks after that click the pic and there's a vacancy on the Daily Mail crime desk as you only person replied I doubt about that.

I've got the job.

How is it affected as a person to cover?

Ollie's quite, horrible people doing quite horrible things because you don't strike me as a serial killer yourselves imagines.

You're not another serious it can be with the Westgate Westgate pre-internet and there was a lot of self-censorship going on there was stuff.

We heard about trial which no one should have to let alone someone have to go through it nearly to say disgusting as Vile and horrific as one can imagine and you know I do think sometimes on the bus case what would happen now, but some sort of freelance working for a website go down to call and just put

Everything up and it go around the world.

So that was that was horrible.

I remember there was some sniggering because the local council less than that leaflets in the pressure affected by this trial is the number to call for counselling that's great carry.

If they're not leaflet.

You know who on earth would with take that up and I got two daughters now who were you are the sort of age, but the west would have targeted that one didn't affect me as horrific as it was the two cases which of the fective me over the years and I went to New York for 9/11 New York wasn't really a crime Story New York was a wartime and I'm not there for nursery.

Scotland the first planes to New York after we allowed to fly directly into it into JFK and then you suddenly interview study warzone and it was in the US it was a riffic night.

I remember being grabbed by a woman who was looking for her husband and she was holding up a picture of a child simulator my other daughter and I found it quite difficult to deal with any other to report the Mersey human being as well and I found out I've had it be difficult if I can do for a long time afterwards and you know if you go in otk to big story like that you jet-lagged you know Manhattan was member of been awake at night in is fire engines is going everywhere alarms going off without you.

See is what you and you know how many years to really quite.

That because you know reading a business in a business, where it difficult to be to be open sometimes as the best thing to talk about it when you blatantly realise that much easier so taking my own experience as a difficult case to cover the two years ago.

I was in in Hong Kong for the trial of rurik jutting Cambridge educated banker who murdered two prostitutes in the most horrific circumstances.

I would call it a murder trial of the digital age because I have been out to cover the cutting murders when he was first arrested two years earlier, but

We didn't know just what those girls have gone through the I did something in that 12.

I've never done before they were agency Portishead from afp and reuters the opening of the prosecution was so disgusting.

I put my pen down 40 minutes.

I couldn't on at manorbier gender studies covering Crime of the Century on now.

I could not believe that someone to human beings capable of doing what you did and I remembered some distinguish Daily Mail reporters write as in the past when I used to go and do colour the descriptions of court cases, they often used to look to the defendant in the dock and that's what I did then unlike salts subsequently we had a 45-minute audio of him.

Torturing woman and that was played to call luckily we only heard it before jurors have to watch it there after the about 40s selfie videos of him glorifying and death so if I'm a bit the car.

But the point I'm gonna make it so that was difficult and there were there a reporters from the international media fluency is that alright it? It was a riffic but it did the important thing was to talk about it after people be no calling me some actually it was a riffic so yeah, but you have a lot of professional drone at the case as well as covering the crankcase as well.

We had Mark williams-thomas in the in that chair couple of weeks ago and I asked him at this moment some everything is he?

Said you just struck me you know how they're just some straight up evil people in the world and he said yes, there is but you know did you ever do you ever feel sorry for the people in the dock obviously feel sorry for the victims as well.

How do you do with that psychologically? I am struggling to think of the case where I felt sorry for in a psychopath.

Someone is inflicted real Una hora en someone why I find it be there are times when you think I wonder if not.

I understand sound like some certificate Edinburgh Airport to hear that you do sometimes think I wonder that there's never a different upbringing Leatherhead at the stable family other things might have turned out differently I have never the case I covered in the late 90s girl called Sharon Carr who was Britain's youngest murderers she murdered mutilated.

Hairdresser h16 when she was 12 and she was brought up in in Belize was killing animals and drinking blood and and um um yeah, just just want to know the evidence was and I'm researching belief was that she there mum wasn't really engaged to being a mother so mean something obviously for 12 year old to murder mutilate somebody's not convicted of murder something like the Bulger Killers Andy Nuffield desperately sorry for Jimmy's pub.

It does happen.

Yes, I close some of my friends if every night to lock away a lot lot of them up throw away the key and then some of my friends are like what they do with horrific, but they were they were themselves.

Tenant 10-11 the other return when they're so yeah, I'm like that's made it to this day edibles UK sivan now decades later and Jamie I wasn't involved in that one but asleep and I've written about the case since I do you learn to journalist mode then when you write about it.

How does how does that work in terms of cos you are a human being you having to be affected by oil.

Do you do can I put that to one side for a few hours while you get get the copy done and and then you can of reflect when you in the shower.

I think no I think defence what story is the injustice of a case as one of my motivating factors.

So if I feel I think I'm big stories big cases, you want to feel the adrenaline and you want to feel passionate about it.

They have to do that in the fashion sense.

If you don't do it network engineer risk of not doing the job properly.

It's so

Inna striga that balance right between being a human being and international job you get contacted by The Killers and by the people there in the dark because they want to put their Seinfeld what that some guy goes down Cranbrook dream killing someone and then writes to you from prison said I want to put my side of the story.

Did you go and see them to do an interview in prison? I think you the convicted person than they have to be certain rules to do that.

So they have to be not talking about now whinging about what it's like a prison.

They have to have the gentiles what I believe to be the case of 21 in the old days.

Do you have to be replaced think they've been the victim of a miscarriage of Justice you can go and talk to me about that some sneaky tennis sometimes Go in an interview people and not revealing that they're journalist.

I haven't done that for my head.

I was doing cleaning.

Mitigation in the mid-90s and to the head teacher Philip Lawrence was murdered outside school gates near high profile case remember it yeah and yeah.

Yeah, so I was looking at his killer lyoko chindamo and a lot of work on that and I see any time I've been to prison to see someone.

I went to see his dad Massimo chindamo Into Turbo prison north of Rome I found out his dad had gang gang links as a very dangerous man and he was known as the acid man because he threw acid over people's faces who he didn't like she's lovely lovely man yet so he was happy to leave the Italian Justice minister approved a request to me to go and see in prison because chindamo was boasting as DAB was in the methanol that so we went up there and he's like Hannibal Lecter and cheerful guard's come with him to meet me in a room.

Peter Moore let him out of it as I beg your pardon.

He came into the special interview room.

I need demanded and a half a million lira.

It is interview and I said no and I've not got no not that and then you're interviewed in for about one minute that enough to get from play splash.

I'm proud of my son all that anyway and I sent him on his way and early days the trial ended he liked the attention is his lawyer rang me from Rome message and I'm is now happy to do the interview for free.

I don't sorry too late.

You got that out prison later three or four years later the throne at sir call me over dinner plates in time.

Are you interviewing prison 34 years ago has been at present and I was just been arrested for murder in Spain for the dangerous man does that are heavily on you and sometimes in just doing straight coverage of what these criminals are doing their Innocence they want that that there's of strong movement in America that says that they can of Rolling news reporting of school shootings is one of the things that actually the school shooters want they want to see their name on their CNN tickling your live outside.

That's one of the reason.

Why they do it in that they're talking about you darling down the coverage of these kind of school shootings because that's the very thing that they want you mentioned that you cover that the guys found any actually quite like the fact that you.

Good tennis reasons, why clay and I'm not suggesting that there are some crazy.

Love being in the paper and being seen a celebrity gangsters of East End I'm always wary of Us writing stories which might prompt copy cat attacks by thinking particularly with terrorism at the moment in recovery truck young influential easy to be influenced potential to haddy's out there who get an idea get an idea of how to do something from what's in the papers or whatever you say, I think we've got we've got a bit of responsibility around that not giving ideas not in it was a limit to what you can do when you get the story out that thing we got responsibility.

I'm struggling at the moment Paul to think about to clear case as I've done, but it's something in the back of my mind and you know in a common experience Dennis the Menace PC no, it's up to people like me.

32-in raises concerns in particular cases differently to any other crime because you know if you've got acquisitive crime like some like that tries to rob the local Metro Bank and goes in there with a shooter in he gets Courtney does 15 years.

You know that you very much but you know when people are ideologically driven by religion.

Did you have to cover that differently because the killer might say well, it's because Tony Blair invaded Iraq that im killing all these people argue.

Just treated as straight as I covered lead the daily mails coverage of the 2005 terror attacks and I remember there was a lot of hostile reaction think one of the

Assistant commissioners to the statement which was perceived by some I am not comment it's been a bit wooly and not really describing them as the most murderous bastard in a Justice and I think the public and Daily Mail readers do I say what I wanted to hear was you gonna catches? I can't catch them because at that stage didn't know that themselves up, but they don't do it then as support network and there's another round of attacks Frank most plentiful two weeks later that the terrorists are murderers.

There's no justification for it.

That's the bottom line my opinion.

Have you become a bit more faithful in York on a personal dealings given that you can expose the dark side of humanity.

I know you mentioned earlier about the the car park incident.

Was you going up to the cab at bodyguard maycross in that chair a couple of years ago.

He used to present Crimewatch and at the end of it used.

So you do sleep well, don't have nightmares and I'll be like cheers Nick I am gonna have a lot of nightmares thanks, because you just told me this 20kg Brothers on the loose and they probably going to come and get me yes, I'm I'm I'm clever I am very much for the view that it's my choice to do the job to job.

I enjoy job.

I have enjoyed not professional satisfaction to be got out there to do it well.

That's why isn't there tried to do but there are risks and you have to use a judgement about what risks are worth taking few years ago.

Got a call at the Blue from literary agent sound got a great idea for a book really would like to talk to you about it a book.

I don't know nothing my contract says I can't can talk to literary agent.

About the potential book a bed of nails.

Done the idea is that you write the unauthorised biography of Terry Adams and The Addams Family right? That's some that's an interesting proposal isn't it? Now won't do that one and I subsequently found out the other people that had turned down that to that offer so that one was not worth it more recently couple of years ago.

I did a series exposing Albanian murder fugitives first one to cover High Court case who was fighting a murderer murderer who was fighting extradition back to Albania did big page spread on him while I was in Albania got calderside high someone very senior government.

Dublin live Albanian murder fused is a London Scotland Yard on send them back to us so I was given a name and a couple weeks later myself and David David Jones experienced and trade good colleague online features we found the Notorious b.i.g.

Double murder fugitive Interpol Wanted list please for 20 years you found it we found in we found in Borehamwood and then couldn't couldn't now that was probably the most terrifying.

I've ever done and I videoed it the last minute had a camera put on me so if we win 95% certain the Argyll jewellers in Borehamwood and David and I Parkers cars down the end of the road, and he was a long walk and I was in Italy

Ringmer green man has definitely been taken out if came to the door never to kitchen knives next to and he pretended to be a kosovan refugee and supplied along then that's not me you got the wrong person in a setting in and it was a very dramatic doorstep I can hand but I've stayed this that it was our decision to do it.

You know we're too experienced journalists very experienced journalists and we.

We walked up down we knocked on door one of the reasons.

I did that.

I've got distinguished colleagues who.

Bullets in Afghanistan and Iraq and I will season it was his birthday cake if I've lost my arm, what happened worse in it then that would have been my fault.

I want to blame anyone for it.

So that was booked you know you have to if you're in the front line on the front line on those types of stories for my training was certainly a pumpkin then I used to watch Roger Cook your step people on World in Action and Ollie's Cummings in my heart was in my mouth was a teenager so really under you know is an underappreciated skill we can get the storage of sending emails from UK

And I think so mate just to finish out and everything is arrested couple of days later and he's x of someone racing church piece another paper about his front page 3 dramatic rampage you try to know his his wife you later anonymity that they worship being raped by him in the UK and those who fit case and she was very glad that he was off the streets and so with a his victims found that over and Albania vs.

Nothing, but it was an eye gouging murderers.

It is a few weeks later and people have said and it's I'm not here.

I'm not criticizing Albanian so I don't want to be seen like that.

This but something in terms of the original question about risks account has been that interested in the police.

Just be careful with Albanian organised crime.

You know you mentioned the Krays and that the Krays and son as old big-time Billings wouldn't go for doing this.

I'm told you no not the same with some of those gangsters at least it's a different in Italy have to have to have to assess the risk with press on it a decade ago.

You write really the shop now.

It's 81 to kidnap me to put you in an orange jumpsuit to talk to you live on YouTube

Doorstep in Borehamwood annexe mechcommander rang me said I saw that video on man online view around body armour.

I said next time you can if you do anything like that.

Give me a call and I'll cook it.

You can have so much private security now coming so dangerous, but you know that's you know I take my hat off to war reporters in a put themselves on the firing line, then.

I do you mentioned earlier in the conversation very briefly about how there was a time when you could ring police officers and that brings me to my next question which is about Levinson you know how was the job changed prelever centre how it is now posted Leveson right up to about a year before contact went on we all know that I'm still quite healthy like I would say so but it became you was frowned upon to put to put it mildly.

Let me just tell you what I did.

You know I would.

Call police officers police officers record me sometimes.

I would ring of information about places.

I was working on sometimes.

Can you believe it? I would even ring them to say you going to get a kicking for me tomorrow.

This one is quite gentlemanly so far.

Do you know you know I'm not here to score 3 points so I would say can I just what I said told him to deliver synchro.

There was clearly some things were wrong and there was over familiarity and and worse and some relationships after vendor relationships.

I had two people think I expected may store the fear of some people dislike mean.

That's just you know when I'm free.

Don't really mind that you're not here to make people you hold to account like you.

It's not popularity come.

That's not nice.

I got some people police officers went to jail in pranamat my contribution to it, but now can you not ring please now and say I think I'm disappointed in a PACE Levinson you know the drawbridge one up and all informal contact was found upon band.

You know I know a crime correspondent bumped into a detective on the Tube who suddenly got all panicky and cases some CCTV of them having a conversation my own executive overcorrection be no I will not name individual where I live in London very senior London police officer lives in you know doing.

Leveson Enquiry he was walking down the street on the Sunday morning coming back from the newsagents as I was going to pick up the papers and he went to the other side of the street to avoid walking past me and I thought you before I mean for God's sake he knows it come to this is it come but he seems it has come but it did it did it I think it's I think it's better now and my colleague Chris treatment for tooth crown cost London chair of the Crime force association.

Just trying to build Bridges I never be the same as it was before but what I would argue is an Inuit you get when the occasions when I do ring the police or press officers you and I hope I'm not being too unkind you to get too many computer says no type responses these days and can you look at our Twitter account? Can you look after their website?

And now you find this one a few months ago during the terror attack you know we're not here to answer questions.

You know something like that.

It was this really you know within these terror attack in your friends and very busy for a press officers but remember to defend their organisations to help with this as well said about I'd stay the balance is not very what is still wrong not disappointing because I think they're things me my hunch is the lock that's going on in place police forces which journalists don't know about these last few years because of that the chilling effect of levison.

I don't think I don't think that's right.

I don't think that's right.

I think you know 4 years ago the commissioner of met hogan-howe band ok now, so do you know if

Staff got a concern about an issue in the forces ringer hotline system was going to do that again a glass upper colleagues corrupt or do you're doing something wrong? I can do that sweetie and they're not going to ring not going to ring them this now.

I'm sorry.

I just don't think these it is the balance is the Pendle and still too far the wrong side social capacity balance journalist in terms of levison universo murdered Milly dowler.

They were pre Levinson do you think you'll be able to to expose as much as that of the wrongdoing and the incompetent and investigation where it was found post Levinson would you be as free as you weren't before I don't think I hope that's not sounding like someone is trying to make excuses for not being able to get information in the present-day.

You know I covered in 2002.

Merlin Soham murders of Holly and Jessica appalling police investigation and it is so bad.

It was so bad in a minute me no difficulty or a small force and a half of old immediately in a literally turned up and it was a complete Fiasco and then I'm being on Sky News yeah.

I was almost been to some psychic going in the hedge next to the school where the press conference was looking for clues about where Holly and Jessica were and then the scene year and he seemed office in that case did it looks into the camera in Direct appeal to the object and it's at Leigh-on-Sea they were found dead few days later looks very senior officers is completely Completely I found him to see what's going on with the Chief Constable with his in his on holiday within the next day.

I'm not saying it's direct.com.

Front of me, but you could have that contact I could I could give an opinion and then I'll be down.

There was one of the favourite release the hacking scandal obvious is dreadful, what happens.

What what what merged but what people forget is that who's in the pooling police investigation and very basic adult store enquiries weren't done and they have fatal consequences of policing is difficult and you mustn't rush to condemn the in the Cold Light of Day I was an appalling police investigation and you know I'm sorry you know before when the the real killer Levi Bellfield is on trial for the murder to carried out after Millie you know I'm going to say it was really annoyed at Surrey police doing a spin operation with her.

With a return ticket Ernest taking it out and trying to say that we did a good investigation on Millie you know I asked about going out.

I don't see nothing impressive said im sorry.

I've done my own investigation into this is a shocking enquiry.

You know delivery hard-hitting thing for your polite way bring it, please and the paper when when bellfield went down for the other murders subsequently.

He was he was charged and convicted of at Millie's murder which is good, but I wouldn't of been out to write that all the information.

I had was from the press off soon enough, so so you know I'm pleased to point out their shortcomings are on a case-by-case basis in fact.

It's healthy for a democracy in a society that they can be held to account I was so so so so the police with.

You know notorious corrupt commando who wrote about 14 years and exiled mean he he was the police has arrived.

It was wrong place of terrified again.

They were terrified again and no way could I have done that campaign campaign but those series of articles exposing if all the information I can get will be from the press officer no way at all and I know anyone who doesn't think my reporting on the alley Desire case was a force for good well.

Sorry.

I think it was on when I'm proud of that provides a difficult person to take on post for Macpherson enquiry into Lawrence and he paid the race card is corrupt.

He went to jail twice, but I don't try to dis to Levinson I don't think.

You could I could have done that beautiful need a relation with the press banned from talking unofficially to two police officers.

I don't think I still don't think you could if there's a modern-day designed the police in get away with it in my fingers.

Does it make it hard newspapers crime investigations the Deep stuff because it costs a lot of money.

It takes a long time and also is it changing the way that crime is being reported itself as I mean.

Look at that idiot Tommy Robinson stood outside with the Cock horrible racist as they walk Cleland contempt.

I'm not doing not only not doing proper journalism also putting Justice at risk.

Yeah.

I think they're all of that lot of a newspaper websites to get it out quickly, so, I'm not condemning are paper its website not at all that we live in an era where things happened you spread very quickly.

And it says that instant to demand for news and I think that going back to original question yeah my other concern and I think it's not just about crime.

It's it's so yeah.

I think that might my view is the websites and internet still finding themselves and at the moment our website is different to the newspaper imagine There's Gonna Be some merging into calls not merging as in the website and the paper physically but I mean in terms of how destinations are covered under the benefit of poster paper and the website you must know that the Daily Mail gets attacked more vociferously than any of the newspaper in the UK some of that unfair is all of it unfair no going back to the point I made a few minutes ago.

You know we're not here journalists to please everyone you can't do that.

I know the paper that has got bite continues to have by and you're going to upset some people.

I will defend it been paper 25 years so it's not surprising that I would say that some the Christians unfair exaggerated but you have to look at where it's coming from known for his birthday tribute.

I could pay the Daily Mail everyday I run a PR agency without the baby's nose read the mail it says ubiquitous we can sometimes.

I think I'm the people who criticize the paper you know we could save the world from World War II and it still find a way to criticize it such as said just like the paper.

There's nothing can do about.

Kilos to stones nothing to do about that and I think the papers done some very positive things out during during my time and of course their the occasions when the paper gets it gets it wrong with judgements wrong and be silly to say otherwise put two now.

I think you know you know very loyal member of staff and pick up some terrific terrific Jonas young middle-aged and old and really hard working professional journalist sandyknowes is a terrific team in and people who could in my opinion from a good about myself that we not talk about myself.

No walking to jobs in most of a newspaper cos they're that good though that good at bright and that drink.

What's The Newsroom like now that Paul dakers gone.

I mean he was an institution.

He was there years and years and years doesn't as usual.

I don't come on spill the beans night.

Maybe a bit.

Some people say I will not pass comment but you have to eat after dodging is Staples now is that apocryphal within I have no knowledge knowledge of such things as you certainly know it never threw anything at me, so I could have thrown a few more plaudits and occasions possibly the Daily Mail to get to base camp is not to be criticised anything there after is a Baroness know it's very well if I have the skill of Paxman and you Michael Howard I'll ask you the same question can a 7 times takeaways incredibly tough editor any delivered her a product that was widely admired by its readership to the point with the actually bought it consistently daily for decades.

I would say this to things on that issue.

Firstly doesn't matter how tough your boss's if your boss knows what he wants is a lot easier than a demanding boss.

She doesn't know what you want.

I'm not sitting and so in that respect.

I'm not saying it's been easy to work for him or his regime that he knew what he wanted a very good one of the success of the paper stating the obvious it didn't know this market another thing which annoys me when The Usual Suspects criticise the paper because our readership is big and people love the paper and they love the website.

You have some person's got an axe to grind against the papers slagging off the paper that I can offer you should put it must be you know and this applies to any newspaper but when you get a new editor, is it a bit like a tapestry where you put on one of their the strings and the whole thing could unravel because already does summer same as a slight there's a softening on brexit.

You know I doubt you'd run.

They're splash calling the Supreme Court Lords traitors in ermine and things like this.

Maybe I mean maybe this change my for the better.

I can a bottle that you might be loved like listen to to to to comment on that.

I think papers evolved the previous editor was very demanding want to be successful.

The new editor will have his own way you're doing it but what I can say is I've been there so long.

He's gonna have a terrific team around him and Evan will be supporting in so business as usual.

Play Mika taking V I also know that I get a lot of grief on social media.

I didn't at least try a couple of times to get you to try again.

What's next for you going you been doing this job along time you might be you might be about to say I've no no plans to change wonder it for another 25 years.

I still getting a great story we're in trade if you done so I'm always looking bed and don't like to live in the past some years ago after Lawrence case.

Few people I can dine out on this one for a real life now in a chance no chance at all.

Nothing worse in terms, and then arrogance and complacency the night no chance of that you look to future.

So how come she know there are things to do in the future, but I'm happy in what's the more difficult environment to work in the never has been because of privacy laws liable strict libel laws data protection laws, you know the odds are stacked against us if you want to take on bad people but missing more challenging Stephen it's been at an incredible conversation.

I could only stay gone for another two or three more hours, but we're gonna get through out the studio, so it's alright.

Thank you so much.

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