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Read this: Media Masters - Mark Williams-Thomas

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Media Masters - Mark Williams-Thomas…

Media matters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game to down here with investigative journalist and former police officer mark williams-thomas is BAFTA nominated documentary the other side of Jimmy Savile finally explodes one of the Nation's worst ever paedophiles and LED directly to the creation of operation Yewtree a recipient of two royal television Society award and AP body is a regular reports on this morning Channel 4 news and presents the ITV and Netflix crime series The investigator Mark thank you for joining me a police family liaison officer to the start of your own ITV Netflix show what's the genuine like yet, quite a unique journey and I probably don't think there's anybody else's that's followed that path not to my knowledge age 19 join.

Sorry, please and stay in there for just short of 12 years and then I get to position.

I think do I want to become and stay a police officer for the rest of my life or shall I take a new challenge and please sing?

Even when was very different from when I Began it was starting to become far-left proactive.

It was very much reactive.

You weren't able to do those investigations that you wanted to do in the early days and the level of work was just immense and I remember just prior to leaving having dealt with very complex case which was a air traffic controller for abuse of children well over 15 years and and I was just on my own working on that I didn't have a weekend or day off for weeks and it just got to me and I thought you know what I can continue to do this for rest of my life is just training me I'm into the position where almost every weekend my page will go off.

I be on call and I paid you will go off at night and and I would have to then wake up and always got into a scenario where actually I would wake up.

I would have a cup of tea and then I would make the phone call because your first question would be what you want to do you like what I've just literally waking up hang of it.

You want me to suddenly thing you've got someone dead what you want to do.

So I am it takes over your life and in a way.

There's lots of other people universe doctors at that like that.

There are other police officers, but it either controls you or you control it and I had to get to position where I needed to control my life much more.

I'm incredibly grateful like most people for the service of the police provider in are you gonna get punched in the face by some drunk guy the British transport police on a train or whatever or be dealing with the kind of work that you're dealing with which with the greatest of respect is something that I would never even consider doing.

I'm so grateful that you did it and that people continue to do but it's not going to work out due date to me.

It will be horrendous day-to-day existence.

It's great to bring paedophile to Justice what you've also got to Wade through images of child sexual abuse and deal with the the person themselves it just seems to be quite a horrendous job.

I think the prom with the police service of courses you can deal with one minor thing to the most serious thing and of course you don't know when that's going to occur on your shift.

And depending of course the line of work that you were then end up getting into will put you in more contact with perhaps more horrendous things on a day-to-day basis whether that be a murder enquiry whether that be a child abuse enquiry whether that be a in or out of violent assault and where I ended up at the end was basically working across murders working across the paedophile unit so investigating dangerous offenders in that capacity and when my work in terms of the family housing office ill put you in a very difficult position because what you end up doing is being the point of contact between the family and the scene investigator officer we have to remember of course that a large majority of certainly murders occur by somebody knowing to the victim and therefore very often you're almost kind of infiltrating that family environment to see whether or not they have any specific information to give you and and I did one enquiry seconded to Hampshire police we say police shot and killed.

Men in Dorking they shot him in the bedroom and I was seconded to Hampshire police from Surrey police to be one of two officers working for Hampshire place where we basically looked after the family and that was a really difficult because I moved to a position where it wasn't about going native you know that Stockholm syndrome, but I did find myself be incredibly sympathetic to the family in terms of was it right that their father was shot murdered in case you know I've dealt with many many murder investigations and you're always in a position.

Where sadly the family left behind and I think what we sometimes forget is investigated is that it's not just the victims family that that are damaged the impact on them, but it's also the loved ones family in terms of the offender goes there when that offender comes to justice.

They often leave behind a mum Brothers sisters even children and we can lose sight of that and there's a case that I do.

Recently, where actually they found out about their daughters being charged on the news that should never happened.

Yeah, we should get into position with police officers relief telling that family and I think that's a big lesson for anybody is that just remember when you are dealing with those situations is that both sides both the offender and the victim have loved ones who will be impacted by what's taking place in the family is a b service in the police.

Did it become obvious as to what the next step would be so for example.

I know that you'd even as a police officer started to advise the producers of TV crime dramas about how to bring authenticity.

Did you think right next stop television.

Do you know that's really funny cos people say to me what you obviously planned out your router where you're going I join the police service thinking of stay for 30 years.

I leave at 8:49 and I'll have a great you know life on my police pension as you go through it you start to think actually.

I don't know if I can do this for rest of my life and I got that point aged about about 11 years to.

Here's what I can't stay here for rest of my life and I and I thought no it's time to move on.

It's time to face the challenges and I think gone are the days now where you go into a career and necessarily see that creates for the rest of your life people move on to other two other jobs and when I left and I took up the role to advise on police dramas in a waking the Dead wire in the blood Inspector Lynley Mysteries in probably Wednesday Drive I've done most of or if not all of the crime dramas that were on television are both BBC and ITV and that was a real eye-opener and actually would I move to is a position where I would say to the writer before you write anything talk to me because I can give you an an overview in terms of how to do.

It's very difficult to change a writer once they've started to write and I found that fascinating.

I did what I did then waking the Dead for 6 years which everyone and it was amazing profile of it actually some of those cases are cases.

I've dealt with which I've just changed and slightly to make it into a program and so when you watch programmes now.

I always watch them with the with the car like the thought processes.

How is that police advising being done I'm in bodyguard.

What is success and amazing success world Productions and John Hayman who is possible Productions and and I know them very very well and they have created something which is now got the public talking about what you want to do.

That's what programmes about any she is great with a drama because you can make the ending up where it becomes more difficult is when you have a real story where you are doing it in real time and of course there was a my programs and that's where the challenges is how can we make programs that are entertaining that a captivating but also delivering because I can't tell you by enlarge when I start my program what the end will be and in fact sometimes.

It's important.

I can't tell you because I

Guys, there's no investigation taking place.

I've already predetermined.

What the end is you can do that in bodyguard.

You can't do that me best to get up we're going to talk in detail about that in the second, but I just want to cannot get a grip on how you started to advise TV producers in the first place because there you are a copper is that something that you sort out always it, did it come to your serendipitously that we were pointed did someone say hey Mark can you advise waking the Dead I think one of the things I do like you.

I don't do much of it, but I love when I get invited to to go to schools to colleges universities and give inspiring talks to people I've had a very interesting journey.

You know why I left school with no qualifications.

I've now got a master's I have no I've got severe dyslexia, but you wouldn't know that from the programs.

I making the things I do because I put in place a very good mechanism to enable me to to deal with that so you have a daddy does lot of my proof fortified my university stuff.

I have a full-time pie who looks after all of my work, so that.

Everything proof that goes I write a lot for newspapers, but you would never know I have that and I think what I would say to anybody out there.

Is is if you have something that can potentially hold you back think about how you can meet that as a challenge and make it an owners and actually work with that whether that be putting in place somebody who tells your writing for you your proofing for you and and I'm incredibly proactive you know I'm constantly reading things.

I'm constantly looking to see what are the opportunities life for place advising I saw that there was an article in one of the police magazines and they were looking for a police advisor.

It's actually world Productions people who made the bodyguard and them and I contacted them and said look you know I'm quite interested in this.

I've done a few programs in terms of the police and a fact.

I just left the police then and they say come in and seen and saw them and after a few interviews.

I said look would love to have you on it don't come and do it.

It was a program for channel 5 news.

It was a new series called murder suppression unit and and it was.

Is great and I remember actually coming home after I've been given the job and I sat at the dining room table and I thought to myself what am I doing? How do I do this? I meant but it was a split second.

I thought you know what I can do it.

It's just the rising in relation to place procedures and and what I always say to any person is doing that police advising and two members of public is that it has to be believable if you make it to unbelievable then the public again.

That's ridiculous that doesn't even work sometimes you can push those boundaries, but it's got to be believable and the other thing of course crucial about dramas.

Is they want an end reality doesn't give you an engineer we know that in certain cases in Madeleine McCann there's no end ok Madeleine McCann is a bit of an exception to the rule because we are still talking about it, but ultimately it's not a book you can write.

It's not a program.

You can do because there's no end to it.

What is the end of that wears a cause of dramas? You can always right then you know there's lots of people do that.

Been found to be new no health captive for 5 10 15 20 years might it be the term that the the end as it were might be that either she's found safe and well unfortunately their bodies found so there might be an end at some point.

I'd love to think so, I'd love to think so in some way that either they give Madeline back to Gerry and Kate and Sean Emily or there is some kind of resolve in terms of someone convicted for that offence closure is Nicolas enclosure.

I think the sad reality is this far on now the likelihood of course of Madeline being alive.

Is is so incredibly slim clear the overwhelmingly within the space of 24 hours children of dead.

You know I'm so the likelihood of Madeline being alive now is very very very slim always possible when you put them into the context of other people who have been abducted and been found it's not the same so Madeline is 3 years old.

Where's the other people are adopted with.

Teenagers and then of course they getting rat found years later and the reason why that's massively different is you can reason with a teenager you cannot reason with a child in so there is a point to which they are abducted they have to be effective in why they're abducted for the reason whether that be no as truly as sexual offences or whether it be for some kind of trafficking elements of it once you've established what that is but they have to have a value, but have to have a long-term value and when you have a 13-year-old that's abducted you can see that long-term value particularly, if there's some kind of sexual element 2m yes, cos I can tell you all them captive when you was one of you shortly, but just kind of just finishing off decor inside so how did you end up coming to to become airside the point where you want to be stood in front of the camera? I think that's one of that probably the biggest thing that people want to know do you?

How do you make that transition from being advising to being in front of camera and I'll tell you in her how it happened in a very simple way that I was doing a lot of advising for Sky and for ITV news around the aspects of major crime all those elements of it and I went to tonight ITV tonight The Strand for tonight the editor of The time was Mike Lewis solicitor my looks really good story about this priest in Germany who is grooming a child in Wales for sex offences and this child is actually that is not actually real child.

It's a covert officer and I think what we should do is go to Germany and confront this place and he said brilliant love the idea is really good and he said but as I said you'd like to do it.

So what you can't do it.

You're not a face on ITV I'll pay you up with one of the reporters and and I said ok alright.

So off I go over to Germany to confront this, please.

Delete the reporter was on another program in another country and he couldn't get there for another 2 days and as we arrived in the country went to see the police spoke to the German please told them does whole story about this guy wanted this week, so we wanted to speak to this guy had a load of child abuse material.

It was a very very bizarre scene because whilst we were sat talking to him one of the officers came in spoke to the boss the boss showed him a picture and said all this is such and such and he goes all yeah.


Yeah, he's I know him.

That's a bit bad.

Isn't it? Oh well, we'll do that in a week's time and I said to know where we are going home in 2 days time so we need to see him tomorrow.

They said I know we don't have the resources to do that.

We can't go and do that anyway little to our knowledge was the next day we actually went and did it was great.

We had them under surveiller mother's surveillance we saw the police.

Can they take him away then brought him back and literally after they brought him back.

He's got in the car and he disappeared Aoife

And we haveto went to an industrial estate he met somebody in industrial estate the two of them had a chat.

He then left that Industrial Estate this car and he drove to the internet cafe.

We followed we put one of one of our react assistant producer.

We put him into the internet cafe.

Tell them to go and sit in there and just watch him.

He then reported that Yaz online talking to someone who it is and and it was at that point.

I said to my producer.

We got to go we got to go and confront this guy now.

You know I don't know who's talking to it this stage.

You could be talking to this young girl clear engine flights.

Are we got to go now? He's clearly being spoken to by the police today and the reporter was still abroad and the editor phoned me up.

He said Mark are you up to do it? Do you have to go and confront him? I said what is the easiest is what I did in the jobs.

They promised us can have them.

So he's a brilliant go do it.

So if we get crew into this internet cafe, Newcastle watch it online.

When is cold to catch predator? It's a brilliant little some Netflix so it is actually was ITV so I think you can find it on YouTube or something like that, but we went to see him and another walk into this cafe Elliott internet cafe.

Go downstairs, and he's on their online and I said you talking to introduce myself my TV and it was like rabbits and he's actually talking to that girl.

It's started talking to that girl.

Did you tell the police because I need to move in a rest Mr.

They're so I sat there for 30 minutes and you told me everything you told me how he sexy interested in children.

He just been spoken to buy the place cough the whole lot I meant and his brilliant and it was he just opened everything and I need to do that thing I sometimes when you confront people in that manner.

They just open up they just tell you if you do it in an in a certain way and the strangest thing was his once we done all that the to thank you very much.

He walked out and as he walked out.

He said to the guy behind the desk.

How much do I owe you for that? I've just been on TV anything that was my break that was the opportunity where I then got to be in front of the camera and that meant that they couldn't then put that presenter into the program because I've done the confront and because I done all the follow it became my program and from that point on I then got the bit got the ability to front programs and of course my main programs after that were the tonight when I did I did a really good program on to your shop murder to sharpen Stuart Hazell and lots of other tonight.

I did something on Jeremy Bamber and then and then I started to do some of the exposure strands and obviously the most well-known exposure Strand of Jimmy Savile and then I got myself a prime-time 9 ITV series tell us about the whole thing they did you always know you was a wrong on so so is very strange because I'm go I go to.

Interpol I'm going out to Interpol with a baby with BBC Newsnight at that stage I did quite a lot of Newsnight report and I was going over there to do a report for Newsnight and the producer said to me on the way home.

He said to me if you ever heard of Savile being a weird bloke being involved in child abuse and I went now.

I said he's weird I said but no never toys are apparently was arrested by the police if I don't know it was your fault or another foster went ok have never heard of it.

I said I'm straight strange.

I haven't heard of it because I would tend to know but it is that kind of Period of time where I left so maybe maybe not anyway.

I made sleep meds maguires and established that actually it was very pleased that arrested him and um I contact gave me a lot of information in relation to that and then I went back to new Dyson said yeah, he was arrested this was it and it was really bizarre position because you're Marion Jones who was the producer at Newsnight who have huge respect for is a very very talented producer.

Then came back to me and said you know we're going to do something on it as far as the investigation go to cut someone who's not a victim but telling us about his offending and then almost overnight came back and said they're not doing it BBC Newsnight not doing it and I went a bit bizarre, and this is where so many people fell over because what they were trying to do is establishing had somebody failed had the police failed in their investigation in terms of in an investigating him properly and what everybody was missing side of an and indeed there were other producers that made the same comment and and annoying is that it wasn't about failures it was about this is a paedophile.

Jimmy Savile is a paedophile.

That's the point of all of this and then I said listen.

Let me look at it and so I went to ITV and I said two numbers.

Let's look at this and and there was no to say they were concerned would be to underplay it and we had a big meeting up in the board room with a lawyer and everything and we all went through it and and

Actually Alex Gardner who was then the chief executive shiver and he said look I think you're right.

I think there's something here my let's run with it.

So they've only was brave and and yeah, we did and we started to him.

Just myself and Leslie Gardner my producer and we started to dig away digaway and it was all being kept under the under wraps.

We went telling him and about it even such.

We I made the decision that we weren't going to put anything on the computer from nothing is going on that on the ITV system everything was going to be manual paperwork.

I knew how big this was going to be to some degree.

I could never anticipate as big but I knew it was going to be a big story was he alive at this point I just died and I remember in fact early on in our investigation watching his auction of his items go and I remember thinking to myself to know what in a year's time most things going to be absolutely no value of tall.

Is it when things are selling for £100,000 is car or something like that and

This point just in your own mind you know he was a pedophile, but you just have to prove it or did he did he still have a bit of an open-minded there was clearly there was quite a lot online in terms of him being an offender particularly in relation to children's homes and things like that, but I know I was very open minded.

I think that's one thing I am is that if I started investigation and a and some new information comes in and takes me somewhere else.

I'll go with that.

I'm not set on a path and I think that's one of the criticisms of some senior officers as they have an idea and they have to make it appropriate that that's not how I work on the continent.

They have an inquisitorial system where it's judge lead and they genuinely do have a duty to consider.


Everything was here if the police think they've got their them and then they set about proving but it has you've just said that that might be to the exclusion of well, maybe you didn't do it.

I think that's probably one of the big failings of police investigations.

Is it it at least it's about finding out what happened rather than trying to prove the allegations.

Nando's a vote to very very different things and I think when we set out to investigate Savile you know I was doing it alongside all my other work.

I didn't get paid a year as well.

Cos I want to get paid till the end of it.

So just making that program with everything free and and I just started phoning people up talking to people and as I was doing it.

I was starting to realise do you know what there is something here and then I got one victims came forward and then another victim and only got two stage where we had your five crucial people giving us information and I remember one afternoon.

There was a that this story of now.

Got into the press that we were doing I said he will going to or looking at doing the program in relation to Jimmy Savile in and BBC Leeds with very supportive of him.

He was a Leeds man and I remember them doing a phone and I listen to this phone in and listen to Penny because I thought someone might phone up with a crucial piece of information actually all they did was criticised me.

You know it was quite difficult to listen to that im quite used to it now.

You know I got other days and you talk to anybody is.

Public profile, it's a long time ago that I search for my name on Google you know because here are some really horrible comments that are made about people a human being you do have feelings and yes, we do when I think some people forget that mean I think with the unity the increase of social media the increase of anonymity through certain aspects know it's incredible what some people will say about people in you think I mean years ago when I first started to get a profile my daughter was at school mate.

My middle daughter was at school and one day.

She got really upset she came home and the teacher phone home and said she's really upset and the reason that she's upset she was searching online.

She put her dad name in and it came up with this really horrible stuff this man should be killed this man.

Should be hung pictures of me being hung.

You know that's what we were quite hard want to put in a daddy now.

You know off the back of Savile I got sent child abuse material.

I got sent a petrol bomb you don't have had death threats.

Those of the reality of the world that I live in and not just through the sample stuff.

I have a programme called on the runway catch wanted criminals and I've put people away for a long time and these people aren't always happy with that.

Just finishing off on Savile then a friend of mine used to be the editor of the news of the world and he said to me many years ago.

He said we always knew that he was a pedophile, but in all seriousness.

That is the most humanity destroying my reputation is wrong.

If you falsely accuse someone of being a paedophile.

You've ruined their life forever and it'll stick so you've got to make sure 100% of the lies were just never let them ever run it because Savills lies were all over them and Innocence you can't blame them now and I'm wanting to be careful now absolutely one of the questions that was put to me.

I had to be put to me many times you do you think you could have done your program if Savile was alive and and I quite clearly the answer is no.

Then loloi would have allowed us to do that even with the evidential value that we managed to a mass which was quite considerable.

It is I don't believe any lawyer.

The path that so he had to be dead which is really sad because that level of Justice is now not been through the courts and he hasn't gone to jail that said it's also rather unfortunate because that might have the procedure to stop some of his offending if he came to light absolutely and there are other people out there.

You know there are two particular high-profile individuals that I know about who I'm convinced.

They are sex offenders.

You know I brought that attention to the place a place of done any investigation, but it has just hasn't got two enough of a level for the grand Prosecution Service I know that when one of those people died at the Floodgates will open that's wrong.

We shouldn't be in that world and actually this concept of you know The Untouchables still exists you know Jimmy Savile put himself in a position where he was untouchable.

There is no doubt about that and there are still individuals who fall into that place less.

So you know I don't think that any of us in the media world will ever thought that Mac

Clifford and Rolf Harris would have been convicted for sex offences, but they were and rightly so they are sending was horrific a Rolf Harris is very lucky that he isn't being prosecuted for further offences in Australia because there are allegations.

That's it over there and I think what we've got is at we have as a result of Savile we've given some power back to victims.

We've given an attitude with change public attitude and I think it when I think back on it and myself and my producer.

We've we've took too many times and I think in terms of the media world.

I don't think there is probably a program in the last decade two decades whatever that is made such a difference 41 days.

It's sat on them on the front pages of newspapers.

It's changed attitudes.

It's changed legislation.

It's giving a voice to people out there who never felt confident and it's put some really dangerous offenders away not just those ones that we know about i.e.

The high-profile 1.

But up and down the country.

We got an email ITV got an email from the NSPCC quite soon after all the Savile bubble burst and hit they said you know as a direct result we can say the least 1000 children both now and previously have been saved as a result of your program credible phenomenal phenomenal.

I feel very proud of done that.

I feel very proud to have been the the engine to do that and always say this when I collected my RTS Awards you know I collected it on behalf of those victims that came forward that's why I did it.

It wasn't about me.

It was about those people who had the confidence to allow me to tell their story and I was able to do it in such a way that it was believable it had authenticity behind it and you're in the words of the RTS judges.

It was it was something around it was so shocking but without being sensational you know and I think that's really I think sensationalistic without being sensational and it was it was really good to actually get to a position, where the

Public is saying yeah, we now understand.

We have some credibility behind that and I think to takes Avalon you know my mum phone me at 1 afternoon and she said to me.

Do you think should be doing this? You know this is pretty risky and actually your Leslie and I we sat down on many occasions and said to ask you know we will either working television for a long time or will never work again and them and any did that you know we were on the cusp of it than the night before the program went out or certainly the weekend before I was worried.

I was seriously worried.

I thought you know if the public don't go with it if the media don't go with this.

I'll be hung out to dry but I have that confidence and it's not a blind confidence eoi everything's made up and you talk to anybody that knows me if I've got a passion about something.

I will follow it.

You know the matter matter you can put as many hurdles you want in the way I will get the answer at the end and it's truly changed Society Gazette

Hundreds of victims of child sexual abuse now, they are being believed and that came forward as result of his many of them thinking that they were the only one out before Savile dying Rolf Harris must have thought that he got away with it.

If you could just do whatever he wants.

I mean that must have come is incredibly rude Awakening when when that when the Floodgates opened on Savile that he must have thought I might going to be next yes absolutely mi Max Clifford you know I know I always say is that you those people out there who committed those offences know exactly what they've done and what I would say to them and said many times is that I hope you sleep very very lightly at night fearful that that next bang on the door is going to be the police.

They know exactly what they done.

They know the offences are committed and they I hope that the law one day catches up with all them won't I know it weird that the reality isn't it won't but if we can at least chip away at those people who have changed people's lives and it being a victim of any crime is horrific being a victim of a personal crime like.

Sex offences and particularly when you have your innocence taken away from you as a child changes your life when the shear brassneck of someone like Rolf Harris or Stuart Hall on his being that they thought that that the way the celebrities are treating Society meant that they could go to those depraved that is just it's just the mind boggles as to how they even got away with it.

Yes and that I like or Society has a big role to play in it because we create these Monsters we create these opportunities offending is all about access and opportunity you have to have the access to a child and you have to have the opportunity to offend to get away with it and of course what we allowed with Rolf Harris Max Clifford Jimmy Savile with we created the opportunity and we gave them the access to children and then I will then send Nicky children's show for decades Jim'll Fix It I mean you couldn't make it up now and I'm actually no I said I did have been asking Radio Times about this and we will never know whether that was a vehicle that he.

Waited for his offending or whether it was just great lad well who knows and you took your experience of working in this sense of those kind of high profile investigations into into other Crime Stories like the Oscar Pistorius hotel that developed so Oscar is a very interesting story so obviously February he shoots and kills Reeva Steenkamp his girlfriend.

If only a short period of time some six months and massive news breaking breaking news round the world on day after Valentines day, and I know remember looking at it following the news and of course.

I think we probably I'm I'm very sporty.

We probably all knew about Oscar in some way view the blades.

Yeah, I mean if you were any if you knew anything within that well, there are three of them out three of the most well-known people in the world in South Africa is Desmond Tutu Nelson Mandela and Oscar Pistorius yeah, there's still 3 most famous people in South Africa and so when that story bro.

I looked at it and I remember follow.

Ring out I'm quite shortly after that Leslie said to me.

Why don't you make contact with him? Why don't you see if they're interested in doing something so I did I make contact through his PR lady and we started the dialogue and I'm quite quickly we started they stayed they were quite happy to engage and talk and of course of the lot of process as far as Lee the media and it was quite clear that actually I was in the house in a fire pit with the biggest Media outlets your abc.

Oprah 60 minutes.

Yeah the big players massive players and I know I was little loli me fry TV making a picture and saying a week ago.

We could do a really good program with him and and as it developed and went on they started to actually quite like what I was suggesting.

Why was effectively suggest is that what I will do is an investigation in and we will look at some of these aspects of the being put talked about terms of the police case and we got up to.

Point just prior to the trial.

So this is the initial trial where I was driving down the motorway and I got a phone call from his PR agent and she said look I can't tell you it will be a deal but what I can say to you if you wanted to come over next week.

I think it would be very worthwhile for you and so I said to ITV let's do it so jumped on the plane and I meant that was Friday and I jumped on the plane on the Sunday I arrived in Johannesburg Dre straight to the lawyers office and I met with the lawyer with to the lawyers with the pr agent with Oscars uncle and Arnold and we'll sit around the table and I put my proposing instead and I have to say I thought it was done deal.

You know the way it was thing and I think they thought it was a done deal.

Only the problem was the lawyers weren't so convinced and ultimately they said look we just can't do it before trial and I remember the family the family.

I think wanted it to happen.

If I know they wanted it happened, but the noise I had to go that lawyers view in terms of we shouldn't do it.

All the trial and they wanted to put all the evidence in the first place there and they didn't want to and they didn't challenge any of the untruth that came out so there's a lot of stories that would put into the public domain by the police which were wrong which would complete lies and inaccurate and what they Pistorius camp never did his challenge there more correct them at the time.

So they became truth or dare.

They were untrue and and safely back to England and I continue to talk to them and remember one day.

I wonder if there's a home when I suddenly got this text message from Arnold who said to me said are you still up for doing an interview? Let's do it and so I phoned up ITV and several on and they said right go so I so I went over there and actually I went with this stage.

I started to work with the Psycho with Simon Cowell's teeth team remember phoning Simon up and saying that was on this and I talked to him a few times about Oscars case and I flew over with Nigel Hall

Who is head of TV at psycho? We went and spent a weekend in South Africa talking to the family talking to Oscar spending a lot of time with Oscar and and we agreed and said let's do this and he showed us the letters from Oprah from CNN from CBS from ABC from 60 minutes.

Everybody offering big dollars to do this and we were offering anything we were just offering saying I will do this interview but they liked it and I think they liked and I know what to Arnold said to me you said you know what he said out of everything you never gave up.

You'll never get that piece of your persistence.

You know it is is one of the reasons no stop the main reason but it's one of the reasons why we came back to you and said that you need you never never gave up and and you were and the way you were going to do your program was a very fair programme it was just basically sitting there and putting the evidence out not taking aside either way and then we got a commissioned and an offer.

Andover to South Africa to start to film in a course we had to keep it really quiet we could let the British Media know that we were going out.

We had to keep it really quiet in South Africa as well and there's actually a really interesting occasion because I was down with Oscar in his uncle had a big house and at the bottom below the garden was area where Oscar is living a two-bedroomed come out flat and I was down there talking to Oscar the team wrapping the house setting up to do an interview with Oscar and I'll suddenly downstairs and and the Oscars I can't come down and says correctional services here crash on services here to the that he was orangutan attack kept going off fultoli and he complained and anyway they've sent the correctional services out your the head of correctional services and that was about 4 people Entourage with them and there was a real worry, but if we were there as the media although he was allowed to do an interview.

They would have probably put him back in jail.

So there was a real feel for him for that and so she.

Where should I go when I kinda like did that come in that run around run around the spawn thing? Where do I go? Where do I go do I go into bedroom? Do I hide the were they come down here anyway? And I said I'll go up to the top but I liked it right up to the top of a house and I got two took the house and have they got in the open the door where the we were setting up and the whole of the crew on the floor.

So I'm we had quite a big crew there.

Never was laid on the floor floor literally just outside we win this big cuddle like landing area literally just that staircase and that's where they were so had to be really really quiet and then I said I can see on light from here.

So we then had to get some of the big boards and had to put them up on the window carefully, so people didn't say anyway we lay there for 2 hours.

We just gonna move we have to wait there for 2 hours until the correct inside of unless yesterday, so worried.

They were going to come in and

They would never have left them upstairs, but we just a little hiding of those two problem and I said that but I just don't know the system is South Africa and there was a lot of personal anger against Oscar I think the system could well have decided that they would have put it back in jail and was Justice done, then.

I'm in your you know more than anyone then where the truth of the matter lies.

I think that you have to understand Johannesburg you have to understand the whole concept of firearms over there and house invasions and there are people who will go into houses who will take guns and they will shoot the occupants and we have many many occasions where occupant will shoot the offenders who come into house.

When is a very sad case over there where there's a former South African rugby player and he wakes up in the early hours of the morning and he goes out and he's woken because his daughter's car is being driven off the driveway, UK

She's gone he sees the daughter driving.

I see the car driving off the driveway he shoots at the driver thinking the cars been stolen.

He then goes and looks in his daughter's bedroom to tell her she's not there.

He's just shot and killed his daughter and he didn't get charged with murdering the decision from the prosecutors over there was he suffered enough torment he shot his own daughter, but what that did for me is it kind of set the scene is that sometimes? It's shoot before thing over there because you are literally having to respond to your life your car.

Hijacks are very common over there.

So I think what that night be very clear.

Is that if Oscar had not have had a gun.

Are you girls weren't available reader would still be alive and we know that because some month or two months before Oscar tweeted to say I went into Rambo mode when he heard a noise downstairs who actually was a friend coming to use his washing machine and he said you know I pulled my gun and I could have shot him.

So that was his reaction with also go.

Deal with it ain't a an elite athlete who has to make split-second decision and crucially and it is a really important point his vulnerability.

Is is a man who who's on stamping using YouTube wasn't stabilize incredibly unstable in on that aspect an added to his vulnerability and he have had some threats against him so they when you put all that into it you create the vulnerability.

I don't believe and there is no evidence that says he deliberately shot in their believing.

It was Reeva he been seeing her for 6 months.

You know they were very very close, so what year was still in a courting relationship what he did was wrong.

There's no you can't get away from a killer to me, but when I speak to ask about that and I made that very clear to him.

He said you know what I've delivered out for the rest of my life.

I killed someone I love I have to live without he knew that he was killing someone but he believed it was an intruder absolutely.

I think there's a strong evidence to support that and Missy per the original judge spell.

That there was no evidence to support that he deliberately set out to kill Reeva there are questions of course which is when he woke up.

Why didn't you check that she was deciding? Why did you turn the light on? Why did you shoot into a door? Which was shot or all questions that can be answered in a leisurely wear with hindsight that are easy but in the moment in the moment with adrenaline with stress if we were if you put 3 people in a room and you're presented with the same scenario.

You can almost guarantee those three people without pre knowledge would probably deal with it the different ways.

I would run away so would fight some would freeze some wood phrasing about the whole thing and he reacted take the gun away reward still be alive.

How do you maintain a dispassionate can objectivity in them on because they eat if you've dealt with Oscar directly it would take a pretty strange can a person that would not want to emphasize that having no Nunhead it from his point of you.

Obviously didn't hear it from Rivas because sadly he was shot.

So how deep do you have a kind of mental exercise?

You have to be objective I totally I mean my whole starting point for any investigation.

I do is to follow the evidence for the evidence.

Don't follow your heart your passion.

Don't follow the predetermined information is given to you particularly, if you're reviewing a case the police already looked at because there may be a determination at the end where they've already formed the conclusion you Jill Dando was a classic one, but when you look at the evidence around that Jeremy Bamber when you look at the evidence to support that it's Rose up different theories and then you have to explore those theories and say well.

What is the evidence that supports that what is it that contradicts that and I think once you do that properly and you use emulator you are then in a position and it goes back to the point of if you if you start with an open minded continue with an open mind throughout rather than look to prove the case you will often come to a different conclusion menu and covering paedophiles in murderers.

Do you think that some people?

Intrinsically evil yes, yeah.

I think there are some people out there who are very dangerous.

I think there are some people out there who you wouldn't want anywhere near anybody else and and they are very dangerous in a very slow way.

I'm going to think this concept of is everyone capable of killing.

I genuinely believe they are I believe everybody is capable of killing and I think there are there is a number of people out there who are responsible for murders.

Who are who was still remain at large.


I am my worst enemy I can never be a Millionaire because I help too many people you know I just say I ordered out and help you at your luckily.

I do enough jobs at enable me to be able to do that but I help too far too many people and how do I wake up in morning at Wetherby oh, don't worry about I'm passionate about what I do.

You know wake up everyone going to do this.

I'm going to do that.

I want to go and get this person.

I want to go and get that person.

I have a jungle probably any one time about and 78.

Basis so the moment I've got to podcasts on doing two miscarriages of Justice one which is an incredible miscarriage of Justice This podcast will be out at the end of November and it's a murder and this woman should not be in jail.

So that's an incredible and I found new evidence in relation to that and then I've got another podcast which is actually terezin case which is quite fascinating it so I'm going to give you a bit of an insight into this to the Intelligence world MI5 at that which was quite an insight and then I've got two cases.

I've got Nicola Payne Lee Boxall where I've done quite a bit of work and then I've got the ASA Holman case from Germany where we still doing a little bit work and then I've got a program.

That's just been commissioned which I can't talk about the moment, but it will be broadcast next year and we've got some some fascinating new evidence are the police largely supported with your whenever they see you as as a welcome resource to try and bring people to just a few Reddy smiling if I suspect the answer is probably busy with a bit of irritant.

Fleet accusing is in prison now because you're going to undo their work and criticize their work Lily I think it's an interesting my life some really good contact senior police officers all ranks of officers and I didn't I think I can sometimes be seen as a Thorn in the side, but I could think I can also be seen as a huge support so West Midlands place in relation to Nicola Payne they are working really close with me sharing all there information and there's a real partnership is taking place at where is other police forces sometimes aren't so helpful and I think it's all about having them them being able to look at the wider issues and senior officers now far better than that used to be in so much as they really do want to find the truth.

I really do want to catch the baddies and if I can offer something that enables that to be done then, they work with me and I but I will be critical you know there are investigations at take place, so there's a the last investigated.

We did we look to the case of Jessie Earl

And the program goes out and part of that program with regards to the family wasn't they felt they love to catch the killer but one aspect.

They wanted is the coroner's inquest to be changed.

They're believes strongly that that she was murdered rather than as it was found an open verdict and they're absolutely right this case was then determined to be a murder years later and and I said look I help you with it.

So I said to families and you have to pay me thing I work with my colleague is a lawyer and the two of us will put a case together so we just finishing put in that case the attorney general and we're going to ask you to any general to refer that back to the corner and overturning quest now the evidence one would if you look at it on paper at this is a case that was originally dealt with as missing person her body was found naked in a bush hands tied with a bra and you have to look at that go that serious that's murder.

There's no other way, you can't kill yourself in that fashion.

There's nothing to support that an actually is the coroner ruled out.

So therefore it has to be an unlawful killing he determined an ape and bird in the family will never happen and they were happy what we do know at the time is The Scene Investigation officer specifically said this is not to be treated as a murderer review was done in 2001 and that Review by the new police officer said this is clearly murder.

So you have the police record this as murder yet.

It's a coroner's inquest saying snow predicted.

Is it is it has to be clear for the attorney general to turn prefer that back and the family has said to me.

You know if you do that, that's all.

I Christmas is come together.

So it's about trying to give Justice back to people and using my power and Influence and my contacts to be able to say I'll do that in all things he is wearing different in the police service.

I'll talk to anyone I'll challenge anybody you know I'll question anybody and and I'll go anywhere do you have an eye on the Optics as you doing these going to be investigated as and and how does it work if you're gonna CID investigate three things does one of them become a program.

I do what do you envisage all?

Three of them becoming ultimately programme 03 yeah, I think there is some things are better done in a different way.

This is why I'm going to start to do this podcast because I think sometimes.

There's one thing getting someone to talk to you to write a newspaper.

There's another thing getting someone to talk to you to go on the radio because they don't forget all visual but getting someone to go on camera give up their anonymity speak be seen forever is a big task.

So there is a balance sometimes.

I think sometimes kept there easier to do them in other ways, but yeah, no I mean when I set off to do something it is about trying to open up and use my influence and the media is very powerful in the media tool and Savile is a classic one of that you know if we hand of had the momentum from the programme we wouldn't have been able to change not just legislation but but change people's lives you know that changed the face of the BBC the director-general resigned as a result of the

The actions that follow that right is so you know I'm a man.

I know it's a different garden there now, but you have to say what were the BBC thinking about you know I write to the doctor general and I said to him.

Give me an interview and I'll put these allegations to him any PR advisor UK European visor anybody would look at that and go it's not our watch it happened years and years ago.

What are do they? Give you an interview when I say to this is shocking we will look at this we will launch our own investigation and we will we will get to the bottom of what's taking place and if offences of occurred we will go to the right channels and referring to it.

All you need to do if you've done that that would have saved face on the BBC but because I didn't give an interview and then because they started to try and justify it and try to explain in certain way in other game over be honest be straight and it's always very easy when it happened years and years ago.

It's a no god.

What's the sticky situation? You've been in.

I grew up watching logical step in any one and they look great Rodger Kearney you still when you know used to doorstep these big early criminals and you know it was genuinely incredible television that guy we miss that I do think we missed that I think journalism has changed massively have escudellers was very different we went through the Roger Cook era of you know really having those challenging people the dollar mcintyre's you know those types of things that we don't have those now produce to doorstep people and then chase them down the street now.

It's all very studio, but I think you know Louis is a Now more and more scared in terms of doorstep being people and we got a great program.

That's going out in terms of their Birmingham bombings.

You know where they are going to doorstep the alleged offender, but that's very very rare now getting a doorstep busy is it is a luxury and I think we would like us to move back into that comfort that confrontational position because there are people out there who need.

To answer questions and not hide behind a lawyer but yeah, I'm in a what's the most dangerous when I've been in I've been confronted in Thailand I went to Thailand and went undercover in Thailand and I've had it been surrounded by some heavy to basic disabled smash cameras up and this you give us the take the card eyeballs in Cambodia where I've had people who have confronted me again.

I think have you spoke to people who work with me.

They go got you do loads of dangerous things but I suppose from my point of view is that they always railways balanced in terms of were coming I suppose the threats and I get within a petrol bomb that's pretty scary receiving child abuse material.

That's pretty horrible the throne.

Why would someone do that and I mean obviously they're clearly not as if you would do that, and I don't think there would be a sin explanation, but why would they why would it bother you? I don't know I think people become very passionate about certain things and you know it's I call them the kind of the Green Brigade

This is what makes our country great and the world's greatest different people different if we were all the same that said you don't be great, but there's nothing didn't exist but they do and I'm quite as an outspoken person and I'm very very clear in terms of what my views.

I will listen.

You know none more so I'm gonna probably most the one case I dealt with that gets the most abuse is Madeleine McCann case you know I get a huge amount of abuse when I talk about that and that's because people have a divided in terms of their view.

It's emotive.

I'm enjoying Kate but I think probably one of the biggest failings and I think this was a failing from their PR team right at the very beginning with r and visors for the very beginning was at what they should have done is come out and said we've made the biggest mistake of my life.

We should never have left our child in there.

We now have to suffer that every day rather than try to justify some about you know it's like leaving the back garden or we could see that there was never any justification for sadly.

There are people who do it but

Thankfully 99% of those people nothing ever happened for children of 5 people got a view in relation to that are my parents used to leave me and search researcher they were wrong and I think that where some of that backlashes come from and of course they then became Suspects and it's moved on and it's taking a life of its own and because there's no closure people are in able to people then want to fill that void and that's what it's about it.

If you don't get an answer that void gets filled in the media is brilliant at that you know when we were recovering a case if the police don't give us anything there are some outlets.

What was just making up just fill that void where it is like Langham it is that partnership and that's why are police officers that swear press officers really earn their trust in terms of being a value in terms of the public because if a major crime happened I say this to the press officers is that is not for you to limit the amount of information that gets there.

It's about you facilitating that information and we are your facilitators in terms of the eyes and ears, so what we can do there's any sent Manor police officers out there in about 4.

We can do is give the picture to the wider audience.

It's not for you to sanitize.

That is not for you to control that yes, of course some information shouldn't come out.

It's really important from an operational point of view but to be belligerent into a to be evasive and to not answer the phone or to not give that information.

I think it's really really awkward and I think there is one thing I would say in terms of police press officers is that there are some very good ones out there, but it's also some really bad on some when I run my go to Holmfirth select committee after Cliff Richards Ray and the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire police was there and cut out surface area that was involved in the case and and I remember him saying he said you know we all really surprised that you're all the press turned up in Int

Terms of their the house and everything at that and I think that's why you on the same time is the rest of us Cliff Richard you know he said I remember saying to me.

So, what did you think there will be more than one press officer SO14 graffiti supply.

We took probably a photographer and perhaps the camera group sang I met you once upon a November tweeting that day and saying to to the to the force and said you know if you ever want to come and spend some time in The Newsroom are facilitated for you.

Mad seriously mad and I think that when you get into that mindset you're creating a real problem.

I'm in the relationship between the press officer and the journalist was mad with serious mad.

There was there was kisses being put on the end of text message.

I was sharing hosted has won the BBC guy in the play what I found really strange is because I knew about that investigation many months before I actually remember talking to a colleague of mine another reporter and I remember saying to him.

You know I've got this this ongoing.

About you at this moment.

I didn't I'm not quite sure what it's going to the most probably had it then gave it over to South Yorkshire to deal with and them and then suddenly you've got this individual at the BBC basically saying always got this great thing and you're not going it's been around for months.

You know it's not even a story units Norris doing this.

You make it story well done police you made it a story on when it was just it was nothing you just send me go back to them.

How many times have I been to the police and told them something to go yet? We can't comment one way or the other eight this an ongoing operation fine what future plans.

Do you have is it more telly date? Is it most of in America going to go back into fiction and start writing your own stuff.

I mean clearly the world's your oyster well as I love getting the baddies.

I love catching the baddies and I think so I continue to do that.

I've got a program that will be out in early part of next year 2019.

I've got something else very exciting that I can't talk about the moment which will be out next year.

I am in talks with a and American

Channel intend to do in the crime programmes or series for them.


I've got my ongoing ITV Commitments it in turns investigator in and my this morning commitments and I'm going to be available on NetFlix as well.

Yellow Netflix a minute.

It's brilliant translated into some 38 languages credible, so I now thinking of you said to me years ago.

What would you love to do and I go well, I'd love to have a program on Netflix I've got that now.

So I can then think what's the next thing I mean I see this type of cheese some amazing things.

I'm very grateful and it's not just me I have an amazing Smallville team around me my produces amazing and I got two people in Peabody Awards know there's a really rare and it's a great honour tab lrts award.

I've been nominated for BAFTA and you been on the media Masters podcast and I've been on the media Masters podcast know where is where is the next to go on holiday? I think this is the bit about it.

I will continue to strive to.

People answers give Justice to people and in a be honest and true in terms of the work that I do I think my my moral compass is hi, I think my values are high and I want to be able to Lowther public to make up their mind I think that's what it is.

I think we as broadcasters is Bescot journalists is our role to put the information out there and ultimately let the public decide it's not for us to dictator them Mark you're a legend and I've really enjoyed this.

Thank you ever so much free time.

Thank you a right angles podcast in association with big things Media

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