Read this: Can Canada save journalism?

BBC sounds music radio podcast the media show from BBC Radio 4 picture the scene Sunday night kids in bed Christmas fast approaching you've got a busy weekend and I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here it's on in an hour.

You're about to watch a cracking drama.

Maybe open a bottle of wine and what's up Pop Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn to talk about your favourite subject breaks it be honest.

Would you watch let me introduce you to our guests in studio to political geeks who certainly would tuning j10a the former advisor to Theresa May and co-founder of the PR agency in house communications Adam Boulton is host of all out politics on Sky News former political editor of course at Joes just looking your company's website it says I quote we are known across the communications industry for our innovative campaigns which have resulted in government U turns shift in public opinion and client engagement with high level decision makers across.

Government see your love is basically sometimes but I'm not going to self brexit speech about 6/8 years ago.

We said next great scandal.

Yeah, but I think it's how you do it.

I'm in the issue really with with the whole industry is there's a really really effective code of practice.

There's loads of rules about what you do and don't do as loads of guidance around how to engage the reality is if you got a good idea when you put it to a politician and they want to get on the back of it.

That's great freebie stuff for small organisations who just want to get their campaign ideas heard.

It's not all about big business has a lot of reasons that you need to engage your politicians made at them on social media after their own political persuasion and I read that as a way of remaining impartial you decided not to vote in elections.

That's right.

I don't mind elections referenda anything else that I mean I take the view that.

50-in television given that were all enjoying to be balanced impartial that not taking any personal decision is the best way to be able to go from you know the leader of the opposition to the prime ministers of the Liberal Party it.

Hopefully interview them all and there for me at work.

So you also work for today with David Frost said that I can't possibly because they're all my friends.

I would say I can't possibly because I'm pretty suspicious of all of that they're all your enemies.

If she's maybe a good start, I just heard something for me.

Thank you both so much more from you shortly.

That's been a key question on the media show 4 years in fact in the median of 4 years who will fund journalism in the future.

Could it be Google with their digital news initiative handouts or Facebook who said last week that the fund newspaper reporters or maybe a benevolent billionaire weather Jeff bezos or maybe the Ostrich Australian Judith Neilson who just this morning and out she was putting 100 million Australian dollars into a new Institute to support the industry, but does a plan from the Canadian government now trump the mall.

Trump get it Justin Trudeau has unveiled a 350 million pound package of tax breaks for the news industry one of the initiatives will see consumers being able to claim back a portion of the cost of a news subscription well critics say that state subsidy threatens the fundamental principles of journalistic independence online from Toronto we have Susan Christian ski Robertson who's marketing and media reporter at the globe and Mail Candice most widely read newspaper and also enliven Toronto Aaron Miller founded, the discourse which is a digital publisher that specialises in long-form local journalism Susan publishers all over the world are struggling and how is the Canadian news industry coping is it in a perilous state very similar to what you see and other places in the world.

We've seen the same kinds of declines in print advertising and news organisations have had the similar challenges in competing for those digital ad dollars that are still dominated by the likes of face.

Stroke and Google and Amazon sell you seen job cuts here certainly have seen declines in the number of journalists able to do their jobs and many of the same financial challenges that happened in any other market.

Ok, can you just give us a bit of detail please on the funding package that trudeau's government has actually knows what's the proposal proposal is over 5 years they intend to spend the equivalent of as you said 350 million lbs.

The bulk of that will go toward a renewable or partly am a refundable tax credit in order to support labour costs associated with producing original news content in both non-profit and for-profit newsrooms another part of it will go as you said you a tax credit for people to claim against anything they paid towards a digital news subscription and as well as that the government also followed up on a measure it had announced earlier this year opening up a new category for recipients of charitable donations so no.

Prophet journalism organisations can now be candidates for charitable donations and condition tax receipts and that will be coming very soon as possible subsidise news companies for the salaries of genus to be seen as exactly how that will play out so the government has said that they want to form a panel to determine how that money will be spent and a crucial question there will be how do you define a journalist? How do you define the laborer that is associated with producing journalism and who is eligible for that money and so you know it's going to be extremely crucial to decide who's going to be on that panel.

Who's going to be getting to inform that decision and how diverse the representation ears whether it's simply a large news company is asking for support weather independent news companies were smaller startups like the one and Aaron runs will be represented on that panel, and how they

Decide exactly who is eligible for their funding with Aaron Aaron founder and CEO of the discourse Aaron Miller from the consumers point of view the most attractive part of the plant presumably is this 15% credit.

They can get on subscriptions to news providers and so presumably you could benefit from this.

Do you see this is good news.

Yes, I do see this and this combined with the other teams that allows consumers to donate directly to journalism.

I think has the potential to accelerate and where we've seen some growth in the business which is an audience pain models with that subscription or membership or donations directly to non-profit news, so we've been a bit of a liger it in that where we've seen growth in subscriptions really ain't driving and change in Media in the states for example were just starting to see that she is in Canada so I'm I'm excited about that but again as Susan said it really comes down to the definition of which outlets will be eligible and which one art.

Most people like the idea of Supporting startup strictly start actually trying to solve the issues that face local journalism, but how do you feel limited in what you feel like crazy about the idea being a government approved news publisher having access status and managing this would like to be a disapproved by government government so we can cover government however.

I think that the tax can you little propose that are ultimately controlled by consumers and controlled by public Dollars are better than some sort of directs finding that could come some of the things that were considering so I mean when I would rather honestly that there was no parking at interference here at all in that we were able to just computer however if there is going to be some of the things that are benefiting.

I'm so my competitors then I will absolutely take advantage of them ok.

I'll wait around some of the reaction to the plan.

Those on the right of Canadian politics apps predictably say is President Trudeau basically trying to buy the support of the mainstream Media Germany sympathy with a position.

I mean I think they're there.

I did the timing is very is very obviously looking into an election year and I think that the government is concerned about some new media outlets had popped up including Ontario today which is a right way in the application that has grown extremely quickly and some believe that may have had an impact on the Ontario election when we saw the populous dad for an elected premium, so I didn't it there may be some truth to that uhm however the meat the been a week looking lady government is looking at the importance of Media for a very long time in the chances that we have around consolidation of ownership for a very long time and then considering what kind of interventional you can make it so I think ultimately there.

We are there making Investments that that.

Enable the sustainability of Media outlets to continue to serve comedians and it's really about the health of our democracy Susan the rebel which is a Canadian right wing site which counts Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson among its contributors the plan a slush fund for during the Slaughter Trudeau it says it won't participate in the scheme, but theoretically could subscribers to the rebel now qualified for a tax break well, theoretically yet another rebel also-rans fundraising campaigns for its operations pretty regularly.

I don't know whether they would consider participating in that I haven't spoken to the leadership of late, but you know certainly they are trying to find a journalism just like anyone else ok, Ramona and Susan Robinson thank you very much for your time at from Canada am Adam Boulton the government close to come here has appointed Dame Frances cairncross to review the news industry shall publish her recommendations next year.

She said she can give to the show I'm sure we'll do it.

New Year she's already considered proposing a reform of the rules around publishers and charitable status if she was to propose the idea of a tax credit for news subscriptions.

Can you imagine Govan accepting me? That's all we have to look at them already been in efforts to top size to BBC licence fee to subsidize a local journalism and one things we have to remember is that public sector advertising used to subsidize an awful.

Lot of journalism things like in evergarden media section and another quality newspapers now.

That's gone.

So it's a little bit curious that mean particularly in the country with the licence fee to suggest that the government somehow giving breaks to the news organisations or Media organisations is necessarily off the agenda.

What do you think of a paper licence for your kind of feel the BBC agree with it? So it's there a problem.

That you'll be able to hear by the media Show podcast find it on the new BBC Sounds app.

It was an absolute legend of newspapers sir Harold Evans was editor of the Sunday Times from 1967 to 1981 among his many achievements with the papers campaign to win compensation for victims of thalidomide he the tourist he fell out with Rupert Murdoch after the mobile took over the times in the early 1980s and move to America where you can't in his career when I caught up with so held recently I started by asking asking him.

I should say about some of those big issues.

We've just been discussing.

What does he hope the cairncross review or recommend the online entities which of Rob newspapers with classified all the advertising have immunity from prosecution.

They are not responsible for what they publish.

They made no effort to probably say original stories.

He steal it from newspapers, but your first point is they shouldn't lose the immunity for what they carry and they should.

Accept the responsibilities of publishing secondly the portion of the exaggerated revenues of the Monopoly told you all please should come to the printing press maintenance should be intensified scrutiny 50 million Americans in the 2016 will Reading Russian propaganda all the time so why it's nice to have Facebook in a picture of my daughter getting married whatever it may be that sort of social enjoyment or benefit is actually not worth what's bring sacrifice or it has Facebook been a benefit to democracy now.

It's not because it is more people the example.

I gave you is just one example Facebook the moment they accepted advertising at Mr Zuckerberg lamentations of apologies and all this county are betrayed by the exit from because

Read over to virtue Facebook as an advertising medium exalts money over everything else but Facebook would say if they were in this room that in terms of how they trying to put democracy and they obviously very idealistic.

They say they connect people from around the world.

They're lower the barriers to entry into public conversation and the above all they give people a sense of what's going on and most of the information on Facebook is good and reliable information the important thing is that in fact Facebook just not send anybody.

It's not saying anybody's to a tsunami.

It's not investigating a medical for not doing anything.

They don't put their enormous power to use a little grout Rupert Murdoch has he been a force for good first of all in Britain l.

Y festival in it.

Just precious remarks that recognise it is a very persuasive person with cement many original ideas respect for the in.

Take me to journalism is not one of them the brexit campaign isn't example at the minute so many things were the influences Malone and consistent through all the semi Monopoly newspapers, so the influence is actually being to lure the standards of journalism that was the heavens and the subscribers to our free podcasting get the full interview which includes at his fantastic advice for good writing at said out in his new book.

Do I make myself clear when Harold Evans answered no to my final question about Ruth Madoc post rotana and Adam Boulton here in the Studio with me laughed and quite quickly bad able to move towards a grimace when Howard having said that Murdoch had lowered standards in public Life what's your response Adam the last 30 years of my life at working for uber many writing for the Sunday Times are lots of arguments about it, then my argument about Rupert Murdoch is in the end as a media Mogul he has facility.

Did an awful of a journalism of many different kinds you know he did save the times he did save the Sunday Times was probably would have closed he did create a Sky News even the Wapping Revolution is something that probably gave life to other competitive newspapers are and you know all I can say is Harry I think is a bit out of touch with what happened in the referendum because actually the times was pro remain the Sunday Times rather to are surprised at the end came out for leave the sun and was fully but none of them were anything like us or division rebarbative is female the Telegraph so even on the charge that they did the wrong thing that acts as an undercoat Sky News was absolutely down the middle so that you know the charge that repair dog wants to rule the world and wants the world follows opinions.

I just don't think is Borne out by the reality will let's talk about brexit not least because Joe you know more about Theresa May Theresa May's thinking the most.

Theresa May's think I should say that most people and the premises travelling the country to sell her brexit deal at to the public and MPs Sheehan Jeremy Corbyn will take part in a TV debate probably on Sunday the 9th of December at a couple of days before MPs vote if it's on ITV it will be before the final of I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here at prompting at one word to suggest it's this would be the rumble before the jungle and that was a producer Richard by the way are a good very you like that.

He needs a price for that one is waving at me right now.

I thought I saw that I couldn't possibly, because I'm memory is getting a credit to Richard Hooper the whole thing is a bit weird and a bit curious because as a x pointed out in this morning.

They'll be deleting in front of an electric with no say in the matter, but debates matter to Sky News there be running a petition and the campaign for why Adam because we think and election times in particular when Parliament is not in session and when the public is being asked to make a choice.

They are the most powerful way.

Of informing the public about the people that they're going to take a decision on who they want ruling them and we think that was Borne out in 2010 when we ran it another campaign to bring about leaders debates, they ended up happening shared between sky ITV BBC and Channel 4.

We think that's genuine public service now this particular one is slightly different because of course it's happening not an election time is happening when Parliament is about to have 5 Days of the bait and crucially it's happening really at the gift of the prime minister.

This was a challenge from Mrs May which Jeremy Corbyn patli had no alternative to pick up donedeal no rules governing it and the reason why are present campaign is to get 100000 signatures to set up an independent commission to just said this debate is precisely so that politicians on one side or another can't play politics with them and indeed so that the broadcasters don't get drawn into a cute accusations of partisanship as well.

Have you would John Reilly the boss of Sky News

Been in touch with number 10 about hosting this particular one.

Yeah, I understand it all the broadcasters were asked to put forward their proposals.

It's a no-brainer for us problem for us.

Is that what Mrs May wants if she wants primetime terrestrial television on a Sunday evening there are really only two channels that can offer that ITV and BBC my understanding like yours is that probably ITV are the most likely to go ahead as you say just before I'm a Celebrity because I think generally for the BBC they're probably some editorial judgement which have to be exercised rotana Theresa May resisted debates for a long time now.

She's challenge Jeremy Corbyn to one.

What's the thinking it really mean this is this is everything is being thrown now and we've seen her over the last few weeks.

I've seen her up close and personal actually as well with one environment and this is a woman who knows this deal inside out.

This is the deal that.

She and her team of negotiated so to some extent.

She must be gambling on I'm on top of this detail compared to Jeremy Corbyn but that is a risk if she is not a natural performer.

She's not it's not a natural style for her tits assorted do this format.

That's why she resisted previously used advisor, you know I mean I still talk to various Tory MPs and I speak to various members of Cabinet regularly.

Ok give us a sense if you would show how these negotiations unfold will Robbie Gibb former BBC marriage now Theresa May's Chiefs of Communications at a person.

Will you be in touch with the very small classes asking them to come to him with better better deals.

What's the current? What's a thinking going to be another 10 minutes is an unusual one and I don't know exactly what the format would have been for this but traditionally in the elections that I've worked in the broadcasters were put forward their proposals in actually when we Adam and IRA on either side and I was advising virus-like remember having a very think it was a pretty big apology.

Because it was it was a discussion about the format and the thing is when you're working to somebody and Robbie will attack this issue.

You're thinking what's the format that suits my person? So, what is it? Are they good could be anything with with Gordon Brown hair issues about his Vision and therefore.

You don't even the lecterns height and things are things you get into the memory of what did Saddam Shia debate happened when we say 4 so what we say things we say I think I just just left work, so we've made up with me.

Definitely made.

It is only the Springfield was his number 10 be thinking joint as the schedule is both in terms of how they maximize its maximum audience Teresa many people as possible and it says the demographic they want to reach BBC One tonight if you come with certificate audiences.

This is the fascinating thing about this idea because this is happening just before the vote really this is this is a big MoMA

Does this really change the view of MPs I mean they're actually going off the punters here and not in Pisa there is a very interesting is the MP for making that decision in terms of how they vote thinking that because I think it is Republic TV debate but the public can't then going to be asked to phone me who knows what my brother.

Hope is I think that you can start a kind of tidal wave of public opinion saying over fed up with this down the best you can therefore you walk to back it and that that will turn into pressure on MP's the Monday goes into on their horses to actually get off them and just get out of the way before Christmas weather Monday headlines after this Sunday debate will be crucial the Tuesday headlines will be crucial so in that run up to the vote.

It's a case of if we throw everything at that last night that Sunday night in the reason you go to Sunday night is the ratings mean? I think I remember being told about 6 months ago the BBC news on BBC One at 10 whatever that that time? Is is the largest audience all week.

No one goes out on a civil conspiracy theory which is all this goes wrong Danny Street thinks the most likely think it will happen will be a general election in the general election fairly quickly and they have quite literally gone on General Election footing around this campaign and we know that they're accelerating the choosing of candidates and all the rest of it.

So this is almost a dry run for Mrs May if she has to fight another election sauces practice basically, so don't Ed Miliband fell off the stage in the in the electric metre in a Tefal off BBC Question Time Debate and that really did do for him.

That was a kind of hang on a minute this guy can't even walk off stage there were loads of headlines about you can still find the pictures when you look online, but I love talking about the other cos it's a bit then they do the political conspiracies of it supposed to on the media for second the what do you proud to prepare in terms of?

At the poster preparations as a key messages Mei Mei Mei the coalition government the amount of times you switch on the radio you hear the phrase long-term economic plan for answers to what extent was would you advise if you're working for a Theresa May now be about 340 messages.

Would you come across well, let's face it the key messages.

She had last time strong and stable didn't really work too well, so she's got to be a bit careful.

There, are she she's always had this issue about being robotic.

That's that's the label.

That's put her she's got me really careful about the messages that put out because by the time this debate happens what you don't want it is for this sort of patter to have become you need the same message, but maybe not the same words with televisual e what does televisual is not politically to put screaming television? What does victory look like for Theresa May she's not she's the head of the last election 2017 people said yeah, this is you turn into a referendum on a lead a bit.

So he's uncomfortable with leading here.

She is she's asked this debate.

What does she need to do to win it in terms of TV I think some of what she's already doing.

There's there's now this talk about.

You know my head and my heart.

There's a little bit more emotion.

They're trying to put into the words that she's using I think she's got to look like this is the deal for the country I care about it.

It's yeah.

I've put my heart and soul into getting it Jeremy Corbyn really just have to lay some significant blows.

He is not going to be on top of the detail.

He's not a details man Theresa May doesn't need a note in front of her to answer the question.

She knows this stuff really well.

I think exactly right she hopes you can show up Jeremy Corbyn and to a certain extent tough exchanges are probably going to help that I think also there is pressure on the broadcaster to ever end up doing this because you know the reality is Mrs May said that there were three alternatives her Deal No Deal Or Another referendum and whereabouts are representing to make sure that those points are put to both of them as well, because there is a conservative backbencher for Oxbridge Avenue Boris Johnson who says this debate?

Supposed choice because true breaks it isn't represented also Nicola Sturgeon at says she wants to be there.

Would it make a better program but the politics was TV would make a better program to have more people or is it more appealing to see 2L Stagger doubt that this look? This is a unique first.

It's the first time ever that we've just had the prime minister and the potential Prime Minister going head-to-head on live television about an important issue of the day.

That's never happened before in this country because you remember Nick Clegg was around in 2010 and we would have been absolutely this is why the Brasserie remember.

This is why the broadcaster should go after this although those the irony that you know both of them basically want the same thing which isn't go CAG legs it but I think the big defensive doing it this way is in the end.

It's whether they can come on their to parties is going to say that set it to this is her moment say to her party back me or you get him folks and that's what.

She doing she has an opportunity to say to her MPs if you don't back me you risk a general election year is cold and getting in and that's been that has been the lion consistently now for probably about 18 months ago briefly a lot of people say the trouble with these days is for all you might say you want to spread like not Heat and disagree politely in a civilized way the fact.

Is is viral moments that allow you to win the social media war and that means antagonism verbal fistycuffs and one-liners is that the kit is not a truth or falling off stage I mean the problem.

Is it can do for you and it can make for you these things there are they can be some great moments but yeah, Theresa May have suffered with funny grimaces funny looks Jeremy corbyn's had those awkward photo moments as well.

So actually you know a decent one line could run and it could be something that that works agreeing with Nick was the big thing out of that election that leads the coalition government you never know these things can really change the courses of where we're going.

I don't want people actually watch.

I'm sure they will have to watch television whatever is on Sunday evening.

It's getting that.

It is going to be as I said, it's going to be a big event will want to do as much coverage around it or show it to a simulcast it as possible.

So yeah, I think people watching and something they will watch around the world of the course.

You are going back to you earlier discussions a point about these debates now.

It is not just the event it's what happened on social media what people comment afterwards what clips are get circulated merge into celebrity had the idea.

Thank you.

Just have a critter challenge and we can all stop talking that brexit.

I reckon it's a winner Rumble in the Jungle be a very good.

I know this is the show me is if Sky News Optima chance of co-host it on ITV in Sky News at same time you'll be up for it with you next week BBC Radio Theatre on Monday the 3rd of December and it's all about the future of radio search online for BBC tickets and you find out how to apply whilst your online don't forget you can get that extended interview with sir Harold Evans

By the media podcast find it in the BBC Sounds app where you also be able to listen to last week's show Joe fortunately we were unable to broadcast because of some sort of last-minute technical tantrum here in Broadcasting House hope you enjoy it exciting and goodbye.