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Who needs fact-checkers?…

BBC sounds music radio podcast the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello, I did start the show a few weeks ago by promising it would be a brexit freezone so today begins with an apology.

I am sorry because that was a pre Christmas special offer that said he doesn't apply today rest assured the next 28 minutes will be fun because we've got here a panel of journeys from around the world joy Reid is tvnz correspondent in Europe and so do you work for New Zealand state own network literally on the other side of the world.

What time do they? Have you up went up until this morning? How well it was 1 or 1 a.m.

When we went to bed and then up again at 2:30 this morning and it was an hour and a half in bed later for another hour and a half so it's just catching sleep.


You can when you work in the completely opposite time zone in this so much news happening on the side of the world.

Primary mechanism very good to hear Matthew chances here CNN international senior international correspondent very much for your affecting from the Moscow Bureau our way.

You're normally based a thing if CNN global news channel that I sent you here.

Matthew is that because CNN thinks breaks it's a bigger story in the world.

I think brexit.

I think I do think it's a really important store it certainly a major story in Europe and is a lot of interesting Elsa and the world's Welling United States it's part of that you know kind of the fracturing of multilateral institutions like the European Union as we seem Donald Trump the American President talk about being in favour of brexit yeah.

Yeah, they're crazy over there and it's a massive story for for Britain for Europe was you very much for my agenda and Dad as a woman is here UK correspondence zdf the German broadcast of I got that right Tanner yes, you about write.

Thank you and how many people have you got over here at the moment? I know how beefed up is a London Bureau it's always been pretty beefed up because the g

Lemons love to hear about the British even before brexit, so we have 15 people here and we produce about 36 hours of original material every year as magazine because I think I should take that as a compliment it a bit about an interest in London and thank you all for being a let's start the Show by returning to a topic we used to spend lots of time talking about on the media show it's fake news because it was announced on Friday that Facebook's anti fake news initiative is now rolling out in the UK responding to criticism that it wasn't doing enough to stop the spread of misinformation The Social Network invented a system.

Whereby users can flag up suspected fake news and get it passed to an independent team of fat jackets in Britain Facebook has just appointed the charity full fat to do that very work will moy full fact charity will at thanks very much indeed for coming in at could you just explain how the system works ok so from a user of Facebook point of view on a Facebook post you might see you three dots of a top right click on that you can report a post and one of them.

4 reported for is that you think it might be.

What Facebook is doing is providing us with a list of things that it thinks is potentially fools and is asking us if we can fact check from that list and things and then what's happening on Facebook again back for the user's is if you see that piece of content on your Facebook feed you might see a related piece of content which is a fact check from us that you can use to read or to ignore if you decide to share it you might get a message saying there is a fact check.

Would you like to read it which you can choose to read or to ignore and you can choose whether to share or not entirely up to you and if you have said something that we later fact check you might get a notification saying ofac check has now been done.

Would you like to see it? So it's all about giving people more information.

So they can make up their own Minds ok since this sorts of articles that even fact checking for Facebook this week well.

We've only just got access to the queue on Monday we are still looking through it and making our minds up about the approach.

We take the three big areas.

Where we are thinking there is real harm from this information online and by the way, let's drop this time.

Take me as it's been used to attack journalist far too much.

It's not helpful is too broad to be useful but three areas where any traffic when you put it the headline for an ok, so true babysitting in the media, but nonetheless it's also handed weapons to people who are not trying to poor journalism and it is important that we don't give that ground away, but three areas where we think this information really can't do harm emergencies.

What happens after something like a terrorist attack we now in that for the confusion that people can be left scared and wondering about where people are and we seem fake images of supposedly missing people circulating those kinds of circumstances like after the Manchester attack elections fake information about where you can vote Robin people have their democratic rights and also people's health so people going online looking for information to help them get healthy and actually finding anything but you know full skirt.

Sunforce prescriptions, I love you expanded full-fat to do this work.

Would you have those we've already working for you, so we already have a team of fact checkers very experienced, but actually primarily experienced in political fact checking that chicken good news and what's going on in politics.

So there is a sort of move here into tackling more online misinformation things like where do images come from have they been dropped her in that kind of thing and yes overtime.

Would you expect to be adding to our team to allow that to happen in Facebook as providing the funding for this there a big company wear a charity but exactly how we do that would depend on what kind of work we end up thinking we need to do you measure the finding how much money how much they paying it depends on how much work we do so we don't know until we get into it.

We're just beginning to get a sense of how much that might be but all of it all of our funding is declared on our website and out that funding comes in depending on how much were we done it will be on our website.

So you're incentives to do lots of fat checking because the more you do the more you get paid a year does your contract the face with specify? How quickly you going to respond to merci?

Information kind of response time targets wouldn't have signed up to that our job is to get things right and fact-checking can take weeks if people are not giving you information.

You need sometimes it can take seconds or minutes if you know where to look and what are the sources or you have the right tools obviously there are times when quick as the only possible answer things like those emergency situations.

There are also times when the same piece of misinformation spreads for years and actually now.

We have a better mechanisms Crackdown on it then we used to have does it concern you that Facebook allows an article which you have determined to be false at least in part to be shared obey see if you say for that didn't say that you recycle got something wrong with it.

You might fly that to use as discussed ill share it that were you know the officer that's exactly how it should work full factors if you like the free speech answer to mess information which is always paying somebody should say actually this is wrong and you should have that argument and you should try to persuade people that's exactly how it

Go to work.

I'm so you know yes, there are important debates the have to be had about when there is a responsibility to take on turn off the internet and there are some circumstances.

You know notably when people are actually being hurt where you know that that debate is a very lively want those debates and need to be had in open democratic forums like Parliament but should things be taken off the internet because full fact says the wrong absolutely not there is a woman from zdf at the German TV network share this used to be relied on to check the Roman facts with they have an in-house team had to do it for them.

They demonstrate something about how bad reputation during this now have that people only like to likely to trust a news article on Facebook if it's got a stamp of approval from an independent fact checking out will in his team were the question is where the news article on Facebook comes from if it is from knowing Media I would suggest it doesn't need a fact taking notes at least the way I think journalism should work and I do think.

Big companies like a company's broadcasters like the BBC on ztf.

This is what happens normally I think the pay can you do not stem from big Media organisations they come from other politicians who have an interest in spreading fake news or they come from somebody posting what he things or she thinks is right, but still there is no who primarily get their information packs particularly young people from social media and does it concern you to trouble you someone is interested in the truth that these people might be getting that information and a lot of it needs to be checked.

You know it if they were getting information from 50 years ago from more trusted.

You should perhaps more now anachronistic institutions, then you wouldn't need to say it independently by the way with check this list all kosher.

It's alright.

I am I am concerned.

Obviously I think everybody is concerned, but I think it is a first of all we can say that it has has more interested in the News programmes now, then they had before I think it started around with the Ukraine crisis that people were first.

Are very critical to our report it but also much more interested, so then you say I was getting more and more audience.

We have a bigger audience share them for a long time so people are coming back.

I think people in these very confusing times feel they get very well informed by public broadcasters and that's what we hoping for obviously trusted news providers as career of a big theme this year.

I think I read some tvnz New Zealand I googled full fact earlier and there's a PRO brexit Group accusing the charity of bias which I'm sure will is laughing with resistor vigorously but we now in a world where we need fractions to prove the fact checkers as a journalistic spiral of Doom it's not a demoralizing to you lately but I do feel like fat chicken as something that is needed going forward and it is Dynasty Debs if it's from A reputable news organisation that shouldn't be but it's almost like those who are educated of those who are in the news business know what A reputable organisation.

Is it since those are there so many organisations?

Gambia now that it can get confusing for someone who potentially doesn't work in our industry and I know it is a mother.

I haven't quite a few friends who don't watch the news because this simply too busy at the time of day.

They don't check the regular tips and updates and things they genuinely get the news from Facebook all the time and they don't look to see who was the original person that posted it and that concerns me that there are a number of people out there that are getting the news in formulating their opinions on something that potentially isn't 100% correct will come from A reputable source.

What do you say to your friends were doing there all week as I'm quite heated argument.

So they say I saw this on Facebook the other day and it just makes me roll.

My eyes.

I keep sending me.

Why why but that's all they do not interested in the world the same way.

It is potentially those of us that are in the industry and Sophia major city blind I click on it and they that way they go with thanks and of course the algorithms with Facebook just keep feeding them that same sort of information and I feel like it's a

Lost cause trying to tell people to go back to those original new sources of fresh foam Cruz asked before I do that message cudnn which President Trump would save the world's number one provider of fake news and what's your take on the side of independent fact checking outsourcing if you like and what I think it's become it's become necessary for organisations like Facebook and other other social media organisations and because they better than that.

I don't have no responsibility for what goes out on their feet unlike traditional Media organisations practices her first step towards Facebook acknowledging.

They do have a responsibility to the police.

What goes out just as we do at CNN and you do the BBC but there's so much so much content on their platforms that they can't possibly be responsible for it and at the very nature of the open where the very point of the internet is that people to be free to say what they like and it should be up two users to flag down rather than Facebook today.

Responsibility and therefore possibly centre people what I think it's it's it's a two-sided equations on the one side you have that need for Facebook to take some steps and other social media to take some steps to to police there their platforms, but we do have to be as we've already just said more discerning about the the sources from which we treat a can use in this age of information overload.

I think that that you know is it something that traditional Media still having their call that we we spend a lot of money and flour a lot of resources into fact-checking ourselves.

We can be trusted.

I think also there is a growing and ability for people to be citizen journalists these days.

You just need to have a blog and have an iPhone and these people haven't spent two years in journalism School learning about the effects and in those sorts of things that go along with it and I think that is why an organisation that does vet check for the smaller publication that can get quite a lot of at a time and space just by the Shearing facility on Facebook and that's why they're so the facility has needed not for reputable organisations which do spend a lot of time and if it better.

Play citizen journalism is a big thing that dies who is a smartphone to mention truth Facebook is based in the business of selling engagement and isn't the ugly truth that the algorithms of most social media platforms.

Just Facebook social media platforms more broadly the elevator outrage in in motion and hysteria over moderation impartiality sober judgement because those other things hysteria outrage are more likely to get that emotion to make the money.

I will first half of that is definitely true if you look of a corporate filings search Google or Facebook both of them so explicitly are bigger source of revenue by long way as advertising their advertising businesses.

They have some other businesses, but basically they're advertising businesses the second half of that.

I don't think I can answer authoritatively.

I mean it's a very fair question as to what motivates people to look at content and the idea that that is necessarily the same thing as

Gives people accurate information as far-fetched and actually you can say the same thing about our newspapers if all newspapers did was give you dry information.

They wouldn't sell we all know that so that balances Always Been part of the media landscape and every Media outlet every internet company needs to justify have their striking the balance right mate the other night President Trump address to nation live in the Oval Office about what he calls a crisis at the Mexican border.

There's a big debate amongst us journalists as the weather network for pandering to him by carrying it and one counter argument with speech should be televised with a 5 minute delay to ASDA Wi-Fi that's so funny but with a 5 minute delay to allowed to have for it to be overlaid by fact checker weather Trump defies fact-checking is yay supported don't appear to care the Washington Post fact checker team allege that you told over 7000 licence 2 years.

And when you when you use the same fake news you just talking about news.


Don't want you don't want and you don't agree with but I meant that we disagree with where is that actually fake news does exist is a real thing there is real fake news and in Russia we get it all the time you get their officials You Get official Media putting out in Multiple narratives, which are contradictory often differences in the skripal affair recently the British Embassy said they would 33 narratives put out by the Russian government Russian officials of Russian state media about what actually happened and and that's fake news and other forms as well.

So just to be clear.

I absolutely agree with that and actually The Dimension of hostile state actors and other international players interfering and Democracy in that way as it is really new in the level of attention is getting and it is really important and if you use fake news that narrowly then it is a useful term but actually it's not being used that way and that's why I don't think that's language is helpful anymore by Elizabeth I just want to ask do you feel you're used as a fig leaf by Facebook because I mean what can you really takes?

The amount of fake news on Facebook or that's why the most important safeguard we insisted on when we talk to Facebook which we did 4 months before we launch this was every three months we will report publicly on how well we think the screen is working what we done under the program and whether what we think it's good for what we don't think it's good for and what we think of the lessons learnt and will be looking for Facebook to respond to that we don't necessarily think that well.

We certainly don't think that this is enough.

We think it's a first step that answer some of the criticisms.

We've made on Facebook in the past partially and what we hope as it can be built on and it's up to Facebook to show that this is a step in the right direction and part of a further steps to come and I said to me talk to you about your first three monthly report will thank you very much and did this turned out of the only story the news today or so you think I will do so from the perspective of some of the TV correspondence from overseas who descended on parliament and College Green apparently the number of gazebos at up on College Green is approaching a record.

We have here of course this remind you to read your across front of the TV and z of New Zealand Diana Zimmerman German broadcaster said they have any chance CNN senior international correspondent Joyce it was a lead story back in New Zealand at Great from your point if you at that surprising or does Britain hold a special place in your news agenda relationship with descended from this region.

You know we fought in your world wars.

You know the UK is probably one of her closest trading patterns.

I think it's the first trading partner for New Zealand it's very important and that regard and also I think there's a little with bricks at of disbelief of what we're seeing happening on the other side of the United States intriguing in itself and every day this seems to be something else.

That is so incredible that it's worth reporting and as I said there is a flower knock on effect on how that's going to affect kiwis their intentions to live over here.

In the years to come now free trade agreement out of Business Services the domestic policy at 6, so it is fascinating to a lot of people back home, but we do report it far more simply venue report it here then suddenly really confusing topic driver your love.

What do you editors in Germany say that they want you to make sure you're getting write in your brakes encourage other than the facts what they most interesting in love from the very first day.

They are going to regret it and they're going to return the decision out there and we've been trying for a lot of time to say.

Oh no.

No, they won't they won't and in the end.

I feel like perhaps.

They've been right all along so that the primary quick question for a long time was what's happening next hour going to leave or not.

I don't want terms.

There was a big fatigue.

I would say last year at some point when really everybody said.

Oh my god.

I mean we can't really honestly listen to that any longer, but at the moment we have another hire UK

To see the negotiation that led to the withdrawal agreement at through the eyes of a Tory Civil War that it was about 1 to the party and not really enough understanding the European point of you know.

I wouldn't say so I mean it is a Tory war and that that was still is that's that's the main problem still I would say and I think that you weren't paying perspective was well covered in general.

I mean you have editors like at the absolute permanently is underlining the European perspective but I think I know rather proper way yet, and what does your day and overlaid on a date on a daily basis.

Are you mostly doing reports for a nightly news bulletin.

Are you doing live out of hits on a rolling u channel through the day and also blogging and doing social media? What do you actually have to do day today with no news channel.

What we do have is a channel with the lot of news.

So I'm hoping we start early in the morning with breakfast and it goes through the night until after midnight.

So it's so pretty.

Long day and I in days like yesterday.

We would do packages and lives almost throughout the day for every so ok.

Matthew reporting from overseas is all about managing time differences which can be extremely punishing how long are you all day is at the moment? What my days are always long because I manage the time difference is unfortunately by walk working working very long day.

It's we have our international network of course which operates around the world.

We have a US domestic time which you also have to sell it.

I think that's very interesting point that Diana raised about it seeing as a as a Tory what is this brexit should because of the Brits are watching watching watching brexit from from abroad and coming back.

It makes started as a Tory water but I am alarmed the extent to which has become a national division 2 point that if you want to find themselves anymore.

I went there Tory or labour or liberal Democrat themselves by their brexit status.

Is where the not that intra-party thing which is obvious great interest to people in Britain wasn't that top of your gender mean as you say joy this so much theatre going on and is quite a lot of technical staff and the fatigue issue, which dimension.

Yeah, there's only so many historic defeat that one can work interview with how to keep it fresh and how to keep it simple.

It's a very good question.

I try and keep as much of it relevant to Kiwi audiences like for example today and obviously I playing tattoo cover what's going to happen later on tonight in Parliament but I also went to visit a whole bunch of kiwi exporters who export wine to the UK to check to them about how concerned they're about the uncertainty that happening here and how they possibly would have fit them so I try and make it relevant.

I think to Kiwis in a way that they particularly wouldn't get from international news sources vets my job as a European correspondent for television New Zealand of to tell New Zealand why they should care and they definitely should because what happens here is going to have huge geopolitical verification.

Is right across the world but also on our own economy going forward and also the repercussions now.

I think I'll far bigger than we initially thought in the beginning the Germans wear a bit hurt and insulted by the fact that the Brits left Europe which is so dear to the Germans but by now I think the focus is more on what happens if really you start a campaign with so many lies and fake news in it and this is something we all not immune to and I think the concern of the Germans is growing that they're looking at this.

It is kind of an imploding country at the moment and the rippledown effect on to Europe and will be much more I think then just the country leaving if it does even if it doesn't that I think the effects are the kind of damage.

It has done to democracy and to the stability of our political system.

I think we we can't really measure the spanner Russell tools you could use the brakes your jokes are so much to say but I don't think they listen to forgive me.

On immediate point about covering basic will how much have your taking over this this job for Facebook is coincide with the brain use a hair.

How much of what you doing it 3 months is going to be back fact-checking brexit.

Do you think well? I think they're two separate things for Facebook I work is going to be focused on online this information is going to be away from politics and at least by farm primarily and what happens on brexit remains to be seen I absolutely agree with the diagnosis for the original campaign was full of inaccurate information.

It's really important to point out the that was on both sides.

There is a version of the history which is written least in some people's Minds as to 1 campaign was clean the other campaign was dirty and how buses work and painted about each other but actually both campaigns of the average VO2 had good reasons to come out that referendum feeling like to buy both sides and that is a bad start to everything else happens and how much like how much they've been light at the moment I think.

Does a word that I can't use on the radio, but there's more confident claims about things that nobody has any basis to be confident about than outright lies.

I think we need to call people every time you interview an expert on brexit.

The only answer you're getting right now as I don't know if we had a bit more honesty about that.

We might make some progress many also need to just be aware on the media side.

It is so easy to get written off right now on one attack.

I am on brexit.

You know everybody gets accused of bias as a lot of very personal attacks on journalism.

We need to actually protect the value of journalism in the space and be resilient against that I've got your keys coming here today to defend Gervais roulette this year.

I feel like you're teaching me something.

Thank you very much and he will Matthew very to the question of how much access you get to jealous over to politicians over here.

Do you get polio whatever here actually do you get politicians in parliamentarians you feel maybe they're not going to cut through with domestic broadcasters.

Who are just so swamped with eight eagle have their favourite.

Do you have sent politicians come to because I really want to each International

I think so, I think we do I think you know seeing any is perceived as being person of window into America it's got a big 300 million strong in a can of audience around the world as well.

So yes, and I think the the the notion of how Britain looks to the rest of the world is something that is a big concern to people on both sides of the Debate here and by the way on that point how it looks to Russia think he's a really interesting aspect of this because putting is Amy publicly but they relishing this this isn't probably the same we won the European Union to be strong.

We want it's a biggest trading partner, but you know when you a road and institutional West institution like the European Union in this way that play straight into Russia's hands.

They facing the sanctions regime in the future is going to be weekend because of Britain's absence if it leaves the European Union mean if it doesn't your right to make that that that point that you know the damage to democracy that this should have these death throes.

It seems that the countries in an in America as well, so loved that the credit can portray that that look that's what democracy looks like that's what it's like you want that are you?

This is better.

It's more secure not clear of course.

What role if any lots of allegations are proven the Kremlin may have had it campaign so miss information is not variations about that in America called jurmana file of german-speaking parliamentarians who have got your number.

I call you up and said everyone speak to you cos I just haven't they just happen to have a particular interest in Germany Ed Miliband of course is Rangers in Germany back and you never called the DAB so they don't we we call them up.

I think we really looking for MPs to talk as because I can't write to CNN the interest in the German audience by British politicians is rather low I would say so we really have to New Zealand Theatre with very much the bottom of the pecking order well as everything that helps her everyday gets difficult for us when we don't really get any Bandit body with the position.

I think I spoke to the prime minister wants in almost 4 years.

I had one and half a question and repressed.

No, no, no that was a pile of foreign Correspondents four of us, I think and we all had one question and a little question and then I took a deep breath after that there was someone pulling me away if you've had access to the prime minister only when our Prime Minister has come to visit and it's like a bilateral internet point were allowed to have a photo opportunity to see our Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern meeting Theresa May and win a lot of questions in Britain give you enough opportunity to the Jewels from overseas like to hear but I do understand the point if they need the group as a student amount of time that you give it to the domestic journalist first, but we and the international round are still interested in their opinions.

Thank you all very much and is always got time for today Saudi my tax to will moy full fact Diner Zimmerman from zdf at and joy Reid of tvnz Matthew chance CNN senior international correspondent is very kind of staying on to chat about his career which oppose to being held hostage by.

Taffy and interviewing at the aforementioned Vladimir Putin have you be able to hear that by the media podcast which you can find in the BBC Sounds app? I'll be back the same time next week.

Thanks for listening and goodbye.

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