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Read this: #101: Edinburgh International Television Festival 2018

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#101: Edinburgh International Television…

Hello and welcome to the media podcast Edinburgh TV festival special, I'm J cancer the executive editor of Business Insider on Today Show Jeremy corbyn's pig idea protect giant subsidized BBC Michaela Coles punch on the nose British TV in a brutally honest mactaggart lecture and a rude Awakening for television controllers about the way they do business plus in the media quiz.

I'll guess try to spot the difference between real commissions and pictures we made up.

That's all to come in today's Media podcast I was sat in the heart of the Ed TV fest conference and a joining me or an illustrious panel of guests.

I will be today BBC controller of factual commissioning Alison Kirkham MDF production house goldwell at 4 as Osman and buzzfeed's TV editor Scott Bryan welcome all so quick festival highlight, please at the other end of the spectrum as love Island addict.

I thought Jack and Dani bought sunshine to the hole festival actually but nice and lovely the biggest show of the year or at least in talk.

Talk about terms.


Doorbell is Eve hope they they were busy love it was interesting and it was a lovely hot woman session as well.

I agree.

I loved the love Island special just because of us so weird.

I was really like the McTaggart but I've just literally just come from the dairygold session and it was just so full of small nuggets of info behind the scenes that you just would never been able to pick up elsewhere so for example all of the cars have a WhatsApp group between them and they just share memes from the show to each other all the time.

It's so heartwarming and just like stories that one of the cast members was until the first show which had been telephones Big Show in Northern Ireland in Amsterdam please you did she just quit her job in a pub.

Just to go and start that announce her first role, when out it's the biggest show Channel 4 is Donington the terms of comedy it's a Sonos

Best so excited as well and it's so so nice in show on the app only for as I'm not Lucy pulling out.

My life.

Is it tighter seen so much but you can't you come to this and I think you said the first day going on the most exciting place in the world and now I'm on the second day which is I'm an independent producer and you seen all the other stuff that people have done to the year and get insanely jealous about the amazing work.

That is an it is not just me and navel gazing and picking up the industry.

There has been some awesome trials.

He put up a picture to show in the Formula One thing that they're doing weird box the box and that just looks incredible and it's not just a fluff Peter Formula 1 it feels like the got proper access there.

I've just come out of Patrick Holland session from PC to and he's got a really interesting slight of new factual stuffing you kind of that off the back of what's shalom on Sophie's realise I'm sitting in Alison

Peaky Blinders moving from BBC2 to BBC One she can't go what he's going to really bad mood but whole session it's like a look at my real name all the stuff that I've got coming up and it's like you get re excited about what's going to happen in telly in the next year and you just hope that permeates across the audiences and stop watching Snapchat and start watching telly again interesting all programming highlights, so that's why we're going to start with Jeremy Corbyn so the Labour leader a late booking at the festival turned up with some radical ideas for TV and journalism among case where the proposals he said that tech Giants like Amazon Google Facebook and Netflix should supplement the BBC's funding with a taxi calls the digital licence fee Scott I think like at the end of their when something comes up with a big bold idea.

I think just to dismiss it straight out of the bath is in our bad thing.

I think you're going to do that the way the way that I thought is that a lot to talk about licence fee particularly with young viewers watching shows on demand.

They might not feel that having a nice.

This is relevant for them, so I can talk to see this idea of a digital licence fee but not in this way.

I feel that you know this so many brings up so many questions more than I think it try to answer to for example, how much money do they take for his lies your book organisations in it just on profits in a lot these large coloured companies aren't based in the UK in our then.

It's like beware.

Where are we going to get their money from how much there is a chat about how is going to be according to their Cher just like well with your Twitter in your Facebook then does Twitter therefore pay more than Netflix there was serving different things.

Would it all comes down to say licence fee belongs to every household it belongs to every single person who washes the TV the BBC is is is ours is not perfect by any means by the way.

It's fun.

Do I think but it is such a good van because you know that your money at the end of those paying towards it? I think when you giving that from the tax is purely based from these large.

Companies that you know changing a Facebook and Twitter a new entrants into the market in the last 1020 years then it doesn't have that sustainable when it doesn't necessarily feel like who's interested.

Is it really surfing fryers are a threat to independence not clever enough to having a little girl.

I don't want to be a chauffeur supporting journalists and there was a bit of a weird atmosphere around his opinion of news print and web it's a good thing or a bad thing is Jonas good thing or a bad thing that was a little bit confusing when the main thing I was driving at is it sounds like to me that this could be a significant threat to the BBC's independence if it came to pass interesting ideas and I think that ideas are worth debate my my view is that I think the licence fee and how its collected is outdated what I think should happen.

Is that the licence fee should be a levy on highest paid so when you take out your broadband subscription.

Every home pretty much every home has one now.

They should be the edition or Levi which pays for your licence fee everyone pays it you haven't got this weird thing where the TV controllers coming up in a van like knocking on your door compared your licence fee people start to understand the BBC is a digital service now.

I think Jeremy was a bit astonish.

There was more than just a website that because he did but based on my dinner in that section but once he will can understand that the BBC is something that is a public service think people just do want to pay at the module support for the BBC it's a little bit convoluted a complicated about how you do pay for it if they slapped a levy on ISPs at the point of entry to to wear comes into your house and it's clearly marked and everyone's bills.

I think that's fine, but introducing a separate tax on American companies who are actually quite democratic because you got lots of YouTubers that can make your own channels and dealer own thing it feels to me like a convoluted argument that it is too complicated it hurts my head slowly if only we had someone for the BBC talk about this.

What is not appropriate for me to comment on specific political proposals in relation to the BBC but what I would say is when he's certainly laid out some big ideas and in doing so he said he wanted to invite and stimulate Debate and I thought it was a shame therefore that the festival has him interviewed by someone who's opening Gambit was I'm not going to grill you and I thought that you run npm.

I thought the Q&A could have been much more interrogation.

Could have bottomed out some of the thinking around the ideas it instead.

We should have left with lots of questions and and it wasn't clear what lay behind the ideas.

What do you make of the idea of having a sort of sister corporation a British digital corporation? Will I agree with the point of this? Just made you know that there seems to be a lack of understanding that the BBC is already a very digital organisation and it is and for me personally.

I think it's a real asset that the digital offer is an integral part of the broader BBC offer.

I don't I'm not sure that it would serve audiences.

I'm not sure it would make economic sense to peel the two away at and create two separate organisations.

I don't I don't see the value of benefit in that I mean after so many years were the BBC's been talking about how much it is Tony digital lord of additional investments in stone and the rise of iPlayer without I find it hard to say they have two separate something we just delivered a piece around the British Asian season 4 BBC Three on Instagram and that like this if This World appears where there's of the BBC know where does that's it? Do I need to go and speak to a digital Broadcasting Corporation to get my Netflix short form piece commissioned which is representing online influencers who have been discovered via web platform.

They now want to tax.

It just doesn't feel like it's aware of the world's emerging right now.

What Damien his team of done with BBC3 as extraordinary as it's such a vibrant part of the BBC off that it is absolutely central and key part of what BBC content more.

Body has to offer if I look at factual specifically which is the department that I run you know I've just recruited and for a digital factual commissioning team that sits within our committee are broader commissioning team and as I said you know when we commissioning for linear.

We're thinking about digital at the same time and it's a holistic approach to it.

So for me.

That's a really such a reading benefits.

We can see that it's driving younger audiences BBC2 iPlayer at and it feels like it's the right direction of travel of really vibrant exciting direction of travel just finally on coving I'm sorry.

I'm sorry for as I know you wanna come here, but we've got so much to get through away from the walls of TV for a moment of his suggestions was electing edited out you and I are journalists.

You think that's ever going to be plausible reality that ever going to come to pass.

I think it's a good idea.

Will be get to choose our own boss, but sometimes people become buses because they're incredibly capable and make tough decisions that you might go against there might be actually in the interest of everybody you know it is it is no lies as I think some Media organisations might have somebody who is incredibly good at the job and not so popular with the stuff.

It's it's it's just I think it's one of those things where they good if they somehow manage to have an initiative to go wider but incredibly hard to go into an organisation that can run their business because here is some things being a good as myself something that might think to myself OK that is necessarily work as an inner it as it as an industry, but I don't think that's why you for politicians to say how the media should operate in this way when it comes to sort of things controller BBC iTV Channel 4 sky and Channel 5 were presented with the findings of a survey and what produces really think of the commissioning process flow or indecisive decision-making cancelled meetings and indeed starting production without an official Greenlight all.

Highlighted but some broadcasters performed better than others for as your producer Killers at home.

I'm I'm sitting with Scott in between me and Alison the Alison from the committee close over there me funny indeed side of your weekly time you need in 8 years and it feels like these grapes a can of perennial issues.

Do you think that they're worse now than ever or is it just the way the industry functions? Am I think it's the way the industry functions and at the thing that I'm worried about is this debate the right response inverted commas to this debate is left for the system in place and everyone has to get back to the remo's in 48 hours and you'll have to say this this this this this and he created BBC pitch which is another thing and it's a system in place my feeling of having worked in commissioning and now working as a producer is the way that he said I did everything commission.

The human being they have different ways of how they want to receive idea.

They want to see ideas and how they take ideas forward and sometimes people want to see more decks that more visual so we want to see take some people just like getting on one line of somebody because I want to follow the system put on BBC picture won't talk to you to this there.

My feeling is that we need to start being more transparent about individual commissioners, how they like their point of entry being done so I can come to go right commissioning editor of factual at the BBC would like a one-liner here's my one line of the idea, which Channel 5 so you know what I do want to see your idea until you fully flesh it out you give me an epic breakdown, so I can spend time doing that are not waste my time left, but to suggest that all commissioners need to behave in exactly the same way and respond in the same way with feedback.

I just don't think it's a realistic way of how this industry runs and I would much rather see individual commissioners be more forthright and saying I like my ideas been presented like this.

If you've got a thought come to me and let's have a conversation over cup of coffee over an email yesterday between

That's how they like doing it does not do that when I talk to producers on a one-to-one level so we can keep track of who submitted what I do.

When are we can protect IP and and and sort of its order table in that way, but you know I agree with them Friday and it is paramount to me that suppliers.

Have a good experience when they come to us because our output will only ever be as good as the suppliers we work within the ideas.

They bring us and then from the point of pits.

I hope my ambition is that is a really collaborative process and they feel the width of an editorial value and help them refine and enhance at the delivery of their program and you know that struggling in the thing that he thinks most troubling is the Enormous discrepancy in perceptions.

You know that there seems to be a fundamental mismatch in how people feel about the process.

So you know I'm going to go when talk to the commissioning team about it or I don't think you can sit in the

Chesham like that and ignore that feedback ID we've got to re-engage with you to have a min commission survey for a few years.

I felt like it was improving and anecdotally people were telling me as improving but if it's not we've got address again and we got a re-engagement supplies and find out where it's going on wrong and think about how we can work to improve.

It's like you probably lean on the one bad experience you've had and I know I'm not dismissing it as not being of significant value and and you don't even if that's too certainly relative to the other broadcasters.

We're doing what she was gonna take that seriously we work with a lot more suppliers than the other channel, so I guess there's an opportunity for it to go wrong more that I had that that's a bit of trouble me that commissioners have such a different perception of what the issues are and how they are interacting with suppliers than the supplies do so we've got to take it seriously and think about it on that platform five years ago and said match.

Are we are we are we saying that nothing has changed that it was changing and tell me how much better it is but you know Sitting In that session.

I've got a question two people just come to me with the good news and that sort of almost the wrong way round I like them to come to me with the bad news is one of the things.

I'll be really engaging with supplies things like that.

I still got the sense in that session that people feel like if they complain that sort of going to be a black mark against them and I promise all suppliers out there good ideas to few and far between to not take them from someone because they complain that you know that cancelling that meeting incurred cost of them.

You know that is a legitimate complaint to make so I would invite supplies if they are having issues if they do think there are ways.

We can improve please come and talk to me and do so knowing confidently that that will not in any way impact your chances of being commissioned in the two things are not connected because of supply.

Just started a new indie, Charlotte said what you said Alison the saying it now.

I really wish I could believe it, but I am not under any circumstances.

It is just too much too too much jeopardy for my production company to go you know what I'm gonna send a little email to Alison or Charlotte about his commissioning editor didn't get back to me again people humans and we work in a very cut-throat industry, and it's just not worth my while Rocking the Boat in that way.

I'm just more likely to can ago.

I didn't get a good response from that commissioner.

I'm going to go and try my luck elsewhere.

I would love to honestly.

I would love to have it and on his collaborative relationship with all the commissioners are in this room in this way, but frankly I'm running really super small indium.

Not anywhere near powerful enough to kind of go actually.

I'm going to keep the camera around and bapa Troublemaker because then that's the reputation.

I guess I will have a reputation of the recent programme maker and not someone that moans because I don't get an email back within 40 hours and it's very easy to kind of have the two conflated.

I think it just makes me sad, because you said earlier that everyone's a human.

We have to sort treat each other with respect and if small India having meetings cancelled and there in current travel cots, that's not good enough and that's a legitimate to human complain and is rather than complain and I hear what you're saying and I understand some logic from your perspective bit if after that complaint you then won't bring the idea to us.

We lose out on the good idea.

So you know maybe I would encourage those who do you feel comfortable to do it? You know maybe then the more established in these please do do it and in the meantime.

We've still got to get our house in order as well as and make sure your address in some of the issues.

They're being raised last known about that.

Just just find a way to you at Wimbledon Centre Court and watching the ball go back and forth so I guess the most important thing is that these troubles these these concerns don't spill over into what we see on screen and the quality doesn't reduced as a result.

Absolutely, I'm in this is been been really rather fascinating seeing this argument about today because even though I work within the industry of write about a lot.

It's not necessarily they should I was necessary that werewolf.

I only get the finished products of it like to do it on BBC 1 2000 on Netflix or whatever the factors that I find at the moment were fighting ideas because all of the Venue engines are going in you've got digital entrance coming in UK listings.

When is coming in and what really cut through at the moment? It's a good idea to Portobello stuff behind the scenes.

It's getting in the flow of real.

Good idea developing then.

I think that has a real bad.

You know implications of you as well.

Cos they lose out on a show if they might actually fall in love with ok enough about policy and commercial intentions that said let's get through some creative highlights partnerships are always forward at the festival and this year there was an announcement that BuzzFeed and Twitter are collaborating on a new source TV show I guess we were.

UTV on Twitter that's not brilliant Phoebe but basically I know I was thinking it with a colleague Dion who's associate social media editor.

How it all came about was about in January I had a rant also bizarrely on Twitter where I was talking about how there's not really a place where people regularly review and debate TV and I find it a bit weird because I dream that we're having is explosion of content not just new entrance door with the flu jab in terms of you know box sets being available on BBC iPlayer on all four and Sky and I'll be doing boxes that dating back years and people are starting to get a bit confused about ok.

We'll what show is is it worth their time and I think the mains of Corfu show is not that necessarily to encourage people to watch yet more shows it's just kind of telling them shows that are worth their time.

They use their time better.

So we will have no people will be with asked out into the shows that people are have been watching falling in love with with a good recommendations which shows that people might like or hate we would a bit of a review.

The idea is less about my opinion and the underpinning than more about everyone else what to wear today and I feel there in the holiday.

Just below the radar signs and I'll be lovely and we still do but it's harder than terms of trying to find that real good show now, do you monitor Twitter when your shows going out and I mean I think at the beginning of something Blue open Twitter there.

Is this real sense of like the overnight? It's going to be amazing and that correlation isn't accurate nothing can be really prominent on Twitter and not rate well, but what you are getting on Twitter is your beginning to understand the audience response something so you get that sort of feedback loop which is really really valuable if I can be both because I love TV and I love the connection with the audience and I feel really passionately about it and what it does.

Is it sort of invites you into that community and when you're able to share the response to program that you loved it.

Just sort of immensely rewarding actually Brazier animation about this point of you, then I like the complaining about being the wrong with the blue musical once we've got Americans to watch British TV shows we send them like episode of Gogglebox in an episode of like the biggest show that that week the biggest reaction by the Americans who watched it point of view they will like the fact that you have a point when people have a moan about very small things and he said this is revolutionary tours from commercial TV in the US you just don't have a place to moan play.

This is the most British thing.

I've ever heard my mum.

Yes, of course it still on ok now just left.

Having a lovely time to get lately.

I've been livestreaming.

I'm going to sleep.

I think it's a great idea.

I think it is a bit of a chamber and I think you're going to get a lot of particular kind of use based around TV shows that that people are very vocal about on Twitter but there is definitely a space for this and an interesting.

It's come off the back of what Empire of done with their magazine pilot and it seems to be a right for taking TV more critically seriously too exciting ok another theme of the festival the continued struggle to find the next big entertainment hit ITV's Kevin lygo said he's not pictures enough Skies orbit retreated from shiny floor shows and the BBC's next big idea is a dance floor mats with Simon Cowell or from Simon Cowell I should say Scott what's going on is entertainment dead there is possibly an appetite of we need it now.

We need to hit immediately.

And even a bigger shows like bake off side on BBC2 took a while to get going big formats like Gogglebox started on a Thursday night at 10 to go little while to get going you have to these things you have to tweak the hell out of them after you have to find it away that it is and I think that there's possibly does appetite now that because Netflix drop a whole series in one go like nailed it all clear by for example.

There has to be amazingly.

You know a big sure if I hit straight away and no and yet.

You can understand that thing you can have the pages.

They had as much before but also you can't have a perfect thing out of the pan cos they're based on feedback.

I like you.

You were saying there is like that feedback housing in terms of the people behind the show or people who are commissioning shows keeping an eye out for all this reaction and then feedback and using that integer format.

I mean Anthony James said that yesterday in the love Island session year that first series averaged a half a million and she is she sort of quite amusing Lee said you know we made 36 episodes in the first series and by episode 36 week.

How to make it and then they laid all that expertise in Series 2 and people question why they recommissioned it and you're right you look at shows like Gogglebox Bake Off The Apprentice TV shows that were under 2 million in their first series so it does require Patience on the part of the TV industry and the audience and I think we are in a faster turnaround industry, so it's hard our audience expectations too high IV is the industry's Expectations too high is critics of their expectations too high I mean it's so exposing when you launch something it and prime time on a BBC on BBC why do we have to have patience? I think it's a combination of all those things but I also TV industry hasn't fully adjusted to the different measures of success actually you know shows we talk about consolidated audiences, but we don't really register them.

We still live by the overnight and these are some these shows are putting on like to millionaire it consolidated and that is significantly changes the way you would perceive it, but we're not we're not looking in enough.

So it is a very very different landscape even.

5 years ago and these big entertainment shows being launched in the most profile high profile slots in on a Saturday night was really exposing so it's hard with Scott doing petite and pretty sure if going.

Where are you getting a problem? You're killing entertainment Avenue the difference between we talk about we talk about strictly we talk about what's a Great British Bake Off after what kind of any other heard of it Sarah I mean of Twitter was around when they show you around but but they won't launch that the same sort of time.

I think now have a Shoal and it doesn't land on episode in the first 5 minutes everybody starts on Twitter trending.

What is this is a mess why this person has to me and I don't think that that comfort blanket of let's try something out see if it works give it a couple of Seasons like love Island had is possible anymore if you want to put it on prime time Saturday night.

You know maybe this is a space that BBC3 can be experimenting more in you know let's try and tame and shows more in on that channel.

See if we can get some talkability around it and and bring an audience to it and then see if you can graduate up the schedules.

We are living in the world now where people make snap decisions very very quickly from both editorial side and an audience.

I thought was won the flipside.

That's what I filled in a social media can be good in terms of nurturing shows and getting behind it save a case in point the Big narstie.

Show that started on channel 4 on 11 p.m.

Slot on a Friday was very inventive the haven't this is only for you know whether it would work it rated ok for the first week, but then I had a really good social media reaction on Twitter and each week Bill and built and built it towards.

It's there now giving a second season and a spin-off for Magilligan on that show with own tempo piano and and I feel that you know it right some people are very quick to go in as a ratio is awful.

I think we we we all been guilty of that at times past but understand that you know it isn't everything I do.

Judgement in that fit Bosch off to the next one.

I think is going to the case of you know.

I feel people are having that kind of understanding that even if you was themselves.

It takes a while for show to get going and takes away for a show to get perfect.

This is the weather there's something else on the other channel that might be better at talking about viewers and their relationship with new shows there was an interesting idea erased by new streaming service called live tree and they suggested that audiences should boat on the shows they get made Amazon has done this a little bit as well with pilot suggested the same in the item commission so what what do you think of that idea as a commissioner? What do you do? We open open Season are we should listen to Our audiences that you know I wouldn't discount audience impotent depends how it would work, but that is an interesting concept didn't do this.

Did Willie relaunch BBC3 he had a set of pilots that he then comedy feeds Jamie Hewlett that was part of a an initial run of pilot pilots on BBC Three and some of them got went to see reading am I making this up? I feel like this happens when your pilot something you look at how it does with the audience and if it does well you commission longer run and is happening now.

I feel you know when a show gets cancelled and it's not Yeah you was the film is coming to its natural and it's a massive campaign in a might get picked up up up.

I never channel.

Is it happened? I think more and more because of it, but I can have two Big Bang Theory are just gonna be voting for every show they're only going to get shows that they necessarily want somebody was need to be challenged and the whole purpose I think of having a show that they might have a controversial angle to it to make people think differently.

I think that people don't know what they want basically.

I don't want to be so I'm gonna bring up this uncomfortable East you because you need to talk about these sort of things that people might be uncomfortable about and expose it in a different way.

You know that sometimes you can be unaware of an issue until it is exposed on a show that there for you feel that it should have more highlighted.

If that's because of the commissioner thing they strongly about something that you was not you certainly want to retain the opportunities surprised the audience and then and it says that's what channels are about and I think that's still where there is a place for channels, because they're creating an offer and sort of the building a flow through the night you like this, but you might like this but the two things can coexist together.

I think and sort of do in a more informal railway already an Amazon did it did work.

They stop doing it and I don't think he should be homework.

I think you should be got to show and not have to come to go.

Did you like that so please? Can you fill out this form?

tell if you get Siri commission us don't want that they just want people like commission is to make decisions that what's good programming and and they get to watch it enjoying humour and not worry about getting a 5-star rating at the end on Twitter

potential by definition is the possibility of achieving more in the fast-paced world of digital advertising Oracle data cloud has built its Legacy on finding the signal through the noise on unlocking potential we bring together data and technology to help you better understand your audience where to best engage them and how to measure a tool to realise true potential Oracle data cloud where better outcomes begin visit Oracle data cloud., to learn or leaving the drive for a more diverse Media is Sir Lenny Henry in Edinburgh for Michaela coel mactaggart lecture you'll hear an excerpt from coal in the moment, but first he is Lenny speaking ahead of the session Michaela coel mactaggart lecture.

I'm a huge fan of hers.

Not been watching you since the beginning of chewing gum really in to see her at this point in her career as major so I'm looking forward to.

What you have to say about the industry event representation about her career about has been increased by people all that stuff doing the same for people I Michaela Brooks people.

I was a very willing student.

I'd like Chris Tarrant and Paul Jackson and Geoff Posner the all people who were working in production or Direction her Peter Bennett Jones Amy just basically made me feel like I could do what I wanted to do and pushed me towards it Clive tell her you're like a video never tell me lots of great so I'm really pleased as a lot of likes so I Michaela Cole stunned the festival audience with her personal powerful and challenging mactaggart lecture.

Aico smoke openly about her struggle for recognition as a writer the treatment of her chewing gum cast and her own me to moments the trailers to find five actors and actresses ranging and tones of brown and black including the woman who plays my mother bound up in one third of a trailer II trailer was occupied by an actress looking like privilege piggy in the middle and the third was mine the writer prior to this.

I wouldn't have dead and to the production of this but I burst through the door the room fell silent like a scene in EastEnders and I was fully in my cat's later mode.

You know what it looks like a fucking shit.

I know I really did say that.

I'm not racist produces Green to me.

She was red with rage and wet with tears.

I know you went racist little bit at the pub door Alice past.

It was a line myself and the actors on one side the Producers on the other and it wasn't last 4 hours.

We even shooting.

the mood

I was made an executive producer came to me.

An outsider to production and asked wouldn't do.

I suggested he apologise to everyone by my mum my One screen mum some nice flowers and get some more trainers, they did.

I asked the actors why they agreed to share.

They just wanted it to work their belief in the job only matched by the anxiety of losing it.

I apologised I told them we're working for A reputable channel and A reputable production company and they wouldn't dream of recasting anyone for wanting a private space to prepare and change how often been told by many people in it industry that many producers in many companies test the water's to see what they can get away with.

I told them the opposite of what I'd learnt a drama school.

I told his accident only power we have is the power to say no.

I'm sorry but all the armchair of the campaign for broadcasting a quality seemed to me to be a symphony.

It was a major work, which you can't slice and dice but the most important thing for me to come out of it was transparency which is so lacking in what I call diversity issues.

We do not have transparency on black and minority ethnic people working on programmes now that may not be the transparency.

She was talking about was she was talking about transparency and she was very transparent.

I found it very moving.

I am jazz and I'm a network delegate of the Sith hello.

I'm a YouTube content creator doing fashion and lifestyle contact it was a very brutally honest.

How are you feeling coming out kind of indescribable empowered like I think there's a power in speaking so frankly and truthfully about things they very uncomfortable and especially coming from other minority position and effectively like standing in front of a lot of people who are going to employ you and being so please be honest about how you come up in the industry and your experience is there the bravery in that that is just so empowering the ad I kinda slept sat there like ride last went through it all and was the site.

Thank you so much because he's the kind of experiences that you don't hear a slight break like to literally standing speak your truth and kind of be like so unabashed about it and unapologetic is just so incredibly like strong.

Are you sorted see these shows and you think to yourself? This is this is life is Funny but you don't think about that actor or that produces concept of how they got to where they are.

Amy incredible difficulties and challenges that they face to bring their production their baby as she called it into the spotlight at the same time being vulnerable, but making everybody accountable as well.

It can only take a true writer a true producer to be able to do something like that to make you relate to them as a black woman I relate to everything that she said I've been through certain experiences like that myself and not only that but I too felt that I needed to be accountable for other black people because now I have a platform and I need to be able to tell my story as well because it might inspire somebody else just like cheese inspired me today.


I'm Chris Curtis time the editor of broadcast that's not your normal McTaggart is it sometimes you hear about industry trends sometimes you hear about relationship between producers and broadcasters sometimes you hear about retransmission fees on the terms of trade and then occasionally you get something like that are really personal story would really interesting she did that you choose a storyteller and she took us on a narrative through her life lots of interesting.

And downs on the way and then building to the sort of the new mall the tough challenges you face of outsider in TV if you're not part of the if you're not part of the game you don't know how that the rules are I set up then you can get offered in about and then the bigfoot of Revelations of her personal being sexually assaulted.

Yeah was powerful stuff clore, leadership participant and broadcaster Brenda emmanus was also in attendance Michaela Cole just went past and she's really made the chip up for me because I just thought her timer Taggart Lecture was or inspiring and brave and and this brilliant and it said it's a but it's also left me feeling you last night when I heard it actually and moved and passion but in hindsight.

I think she did the right thing and I hope it will make a huge change the way that we all operate and the bit more sensitive other people and their feeling is what it's like to be on the other side and to be the misfit and not to be white and male and in a dominant position and not thinking about other people's positions and how they are and how they feel and how they have to navigate a space which isn't there's which have been.

Did inter but not necessarily respected him.

Do you think the TV industry and the media industry on a wider scale takes advantage of people that's a big question and I don't think I want to automatically say yes, but I think there is some exploitation going on.

I think is an industry where exciting things happen.

I love my industry as we're all in it.

That's why this place is packed because we can do great things and we can create great work on inspire people educate people into tame people in any industry positions of power can be exploited and people can be exploited.

I won't point think is anybody everyone's got their own individual experience in there and if we all sat down at a table or giving her own space to talk.

I'm sure we're all have ways which we feel the industry could be operate differently and if we have put shoes on the Other film with listen to those of the powers that be there may then exercise to auto Express do I say challenges that they face from their rented as always? I wish I would be fair.

I put you on the other four and think there's two sides to this story, but I do think that we need to recognise that changes necessary.

Essential that the industry's evolving we evolve weavile Laurent careers.

You know your staff wanted to be one thing you realise you've got other skills or your skills aren't quite are you having fish and above your status or you actually better at something else and you change and we have to allow for that.

We have to allow ourselves to be vulnerable with the lower cells take risks and we done is a money-making industry and people avoid taking risk because it means you're losing money and it's about being popular because what about audience is so therefore those are a popular few that allow the manipulating the end nurtured to be popular and be popular with audiences at all.

We get to see it.

Does sometimes can restrict creativity Inn Express new Talent being exposed and resistance choices you can hear the entirety of Michaela coel mactaggart lecture in a separate Media podcast coming soon.

There was a lot in there wasn't who wants to who wants to kick off.

I think being in that room.

It was exceptionally brave her to be so open so Frank about what she had been through I feel like the audience were.

I think astonished by some of the anecdotes as she was saying as some of the treatments after she was saying and I was having a discussion with somebody later you said I'm not sure the McTaggart speech is the right place to talk about things normally that policy and I might went out when else are you going to have the opportunity to talk about the wrongs of the industry in front of many people who have that ability to make some changes for it.

That's the whole point of this speech is not just detailing things about grand plans.

It's talking about issues that have implications and her speech was I think incredibly War by saying like no this is what decisions whether intentional or unintentional you know had the effect on me and my co-stars and this is why I really want this to stop for other people if I really timely I mean it was it was such a sort of honest person on McTaggart of a type that I don't know we've ever seen before and it was extraordinary to hear you know that she was the first person to give him a tiger and

Any V woman which I thought was staggering but there's been such a sort of such a huge push in the industry around diversity over the past two years and the languages used around that was evocative wasn't it? You know she told about Misfits being welcomed into the house and I just thought it was a really timely reminder to the industry that you know as she described it these Misfits of being welcomed into the house, but there's a real sort of owners on the industry to continue to make the house a welcome place and loads of duty of care and responsibility to the Works was that we're bringing through and that felt really important to talk about treating people do some places in TV still she felt like she was talking about a particular production company and you hope that that her experiences will right at the extreme but but but probably they're not I felt like I watching Edinburgh show.

And she delivered a piece of in almost theatre in in the way that she held the audience to a completely compelling story that you couldn't look away from and I really did feel like for the first time.

I've been to a few McTaggart now and for the first time.

I felt like I had walked out of the TV festival and an into a person experience that related to TV and and I found that incredibly compelling.

I'm from a BME background and and sometimes I get reminded about that sometimes in a positive way sometimes an incredibly negative way, it is shocking that she's the first person from an ethnic minority background but given that looked at her particularly when she walks away and then you'll see the leaders today and you go to order controller sessions in and you just get reminded they actually the people in power don't have that shared experience that but she's talking about but I rule scrambling to have it as part of their portfolio and put it on the schedules and give.

84 the chance give the people of break and yeah, I think that for me what she was really putting out there was it's important to just have a moment and work out why you're doing these things and how you're representing people to make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons and not just because you see a problem and you need to correct it straight away a box ticking exercise.

She was able to sort of Clarion Call for the culture to change throughout the industry in the most of the meaning for longitudinal way, just being transparent about your experiences and how you can help others is there not enough transparency in TV on the wheel kind of talking about it earlier in terms of use not wanted to challenge commissioners when you're feeling a bit hard done by because I think I think that when it comes to it when it comes to the did the stats of come out about the industry a lot of those that come out because it's on it's an anonymous survey and it's the first time that you feel.

Right, you can give honest feedback about what's happening.

Ok have been given an incredible platform and I think everybody I've spoken to about that mataga said how brave it was because she was honest and it's almost like she talks about the bravery of being able to say no she talks about the bravery of being able to do what she felt was right what I found really interesting and and honest about that about that Lecture was the fact that she I didn't she said it implicitly but it's not like she said a few times.

I don't know or maybe and an actually rather than undergoing.

This is how it is.

This is what need to change.

This is what we need to do.

It would just far more considered than that and it's just kind of her going sometimes I question myself sometimes I question my actions sometimes I question how I got here and that's ok because coming back to them they the theme of the podcast they up everyone's just human trying to tell me some stories and we shouldn't assume that there's a right and wrong way of doing that.

I found it really interesting also that we write a piece about this episode and it seemed to have a

Residence beyond the media industry, I thought it was intermedia story perseid or just a major story because when she went up there was a lot of kick back from people in different Industries are also experiencing the same issue said they're having the same pressures that they're having and it's saying so bad treatment that they're having and I think it's like a wider call of transparency across other Industries across the creative sector and in terms of when there is a problem drawing attention to it and knowing that the application doesn't mean that you gonna lose your job or negatively.

I want to think she said was that she turned down million-pound Netflix deal.

Did you clock that? I did not know I do not know I've been quite interesting because they never listen certainly always on the hunt for new Talent and they're signing up people every single week.

I think it's quite interesting the fact that something turns down to it because people go all the global reach take that is exactly what I wanted.

It's quite surprising particularly when you're always here such rose-tinted stories about

Can you have such creative freedom and you don't have to worry about the ratings and so forth about success as well and the person that she felt like she changed into after the success of the first season of chewing gum and and whether that was a positive experience or negative experience in getting this whole idea of not saying it was therefore it was that but actually she felt like she was always questioning her own experiences on stage in front of all of us and said and felt like she was still on that journey to work out what she wants her own artistry to be an end.

It was just I think there was some comments including from people like myself about she's not had like a whole load of series on TV and maybe she's still a bit too Green to be giving Donna Taggart for but actually having an experience with somebody that is nothing just starting out, but is it early it is almost in the spring of a career-high actually was really interesting because a lot of the time for the McTaggart we get somebody that has had like a multideck a career and is now saying neither my experience is mine now passing on the boat on Sea

You tell you to tell you what to do in the future and Michaela it was much more this is what's going on right now you lot are all having a slight conversation right now and it's affecting lives and how this industry operates we all need to cut it just take a minute figure out if you're happy with where is going she finished with the question, didn't she? How are you going to how are you going to fix the TV house? And I guess did it leave you all thinking about what you're going to contribute to that you're absolutely as I said so it felt like a Clarion Call it felt like she was trying to Rally everyone to examine their own behaviour and for the industry to collectively come together and are some tough questions of itself and it was just really refreshing that wasn't a sub corporate McTaggart which is it tends to be and like you said it? Yeah, you know it was she's a storyteller.

So it was utterly compelling in it.

You know she's a beautiful writer.

She's a great performer and you couldn't take your eyes off her and you were compelled to listen to what she was saying them to reflect upon it so it is very bad.

It was fun.

And it was really self-deprecating as well.

You know there are people sometimes get up and lecture you and I think that has much less of an impact than someone who sort of his prepared to get up and say these are my faults and Fables and this is where I went wrong and and and prepared to be a bit self-deprecating cocaine several times and brave in some ways you know without chronic publicized Bestival too much for that.

You know if you read the headlines about that speech and maybe if possible article we know what I really do add YouTube to watch the whole thing because you know she talks about sexual assault and that feels like a head lunch talks about taking cocaine when she became successful and that feels like a headline but actually the whole thing was I I think poetic I think that she was an incredible piece of prose but didn't really trying to it instead kind of headlines or or or trying to make it a bold fashion statement or wait for the who's in the odds in the room.

It really is a story that needs to be.

Beginning to end and and I think that everyone will be well well deserved kind of watch the whole thing in.

It's entirety to get a real understanding as to what she's trying to say is an individual rather than just grabbing headlines because they weren't headlines in the first half and she was just charging the story of her life and her career and you didn't really know where is going to go to and then the sort of Sucker punches all came in the second half, but you're right to miss the first half would be you really are missing an utterly compelling account of someone's really incredible life-changing a very short period of time finally we have time for the media quiz which we've given an appropriate TV twist because we're in Edinburgh today.

We're going to play a little game called red light green light the TV festival is always a honeypot of commissioning announcements between controllers from across the land we are out the big guns the proper channel defining shows so it's only fair that we pay a bit of attention at a disadvantage.

Invite some of the some of the ideas in my head of all commissions on a lacrosse game run through some of the way, I'm going to find some folks are guests Alison Krauss and Scott will have to spot the genuine Commission from the Imposter and tell me if they are a red light or a green light there a green light when there are red light who owns the world's read out.

I'll read out a short pithy synopsis of the show and you buzzing with your name's if you think it's alright or a great night out so number one the producers of Peep Show teaming up with McTaggart Queen Michaela Cole to make a drawer about sexual consent in the age of tinder.

It's made that that's green light remix green bowls green light January it's produced by Sam Bain and Jesse Armstrong as in the various artists And Faulkner Productions which is run by Kool and then she's also in black earth rising which is a baby looks amazing really really great and I think they're she's sort of I think in the order promotion.

I've seen so he seemed to be like 1 or 4 characters that along with it with John Goodman but she is a I think the central role in that she's going to be the next Bond so you know this writing there.

Ok number two in Keeping with a rich seam Italia revivals UK TV channel watch is bringing back the Weakest Link with Sky News presenter Kay Burley calling the shots for a red light.

I've been doing all the time.

I be taking books out there to be behaving for credit phone number 3 Channel 4 is commissioned a three-part series about the Blackpool grime scene type of primer for this is a green light laser, be sorry because I'm sure noise already done the documentary.

Yeah, so I'm a little bit surprised that this is happened, but it's legit is the documentary series made by BBC's and it's the second BBC Studios commission for Channel 4 following investigation into London and monstrous fatberg earlier this year number for so21 2AS your winnings or documentary set in a lippo suction clinic with a host considering her own plastic surgery people have any tattoos on each other I'm not hearing.

Why I don't say anything is Malia hungry lips Cherry Healey she's vs.

Cherry decided to try thinking about getting some plastic surgery apparently, so Dave if it Dave no w and it is it's Cherry Healey is called sex lies and liposuction number 5 Netflix is going to follow the trials and tribulations of Sunderland Football Club but they look a mission dead it looks good because we're good yeah.

Well, I made it and as usual the remarkable job of making some look incredible.

It's only good watch is 3112 Faraz and Ron the final one so you've washed it, but we'll do it anyway, Gordon Ramsay meets inmates on death row innocent aureus, Texas prison to cook them there.

Final meal The Last Supper ITV to see this show regardless whether it's got to be a red light isn't it commission there a producer Becky's yes, and I think it's brilliant.

What is not happening, but Netflix have commissioned a World Cup style international cooking competition called the final table dinner is MasterChef with flags and the Abacus cooking an iconic dish remediation in the British dishes the English breakfast, did you see that all the rest of your life is still gonna make you feel quite kind of Reno.

It's a bit knackered a bit late.

That looks incredible didn't they are amiibos? What did that? He could ultimate beastmaster which is basically Total Wipeout and is in 9 different versions of each if you wanting a let's say France in French commentators and ID editable French audience and it's like the weirdness of all of these Concepts which is amazingly creative, but then I talking to myself watching this point so I guess we know if they say recommissioning about this.

I think that Netflix because of Netflix have to view data their big data approach people that watch Netflix a kind of better for them.

She said im right when you going to gym.

There's loads of running machines and if they're all used in naka.

No one wants to run on them.

So you need to have lots of shiny stuff in your gyms you pay your subscription, but I never want you to actually go there and it's a kind of thing is it could be a strategy for Netflix as well because nobody wants you there stuff.

They don't have to pay for his money server farms everyone wins promo.

You should be Jeremy Corbyn

Very nice very little so that means forever as you're the winner.

Yeah, ok, that's your lot from us at this year's Edinburgh TV festival.

Thanks to my guests Alison Kirkham Faraz Osman and Scotts Brian get the next episode of the media podcast dedicated to you by taking out a voluntary subscription just visit the media podcast forward slash donate and choose a donation that suits you I'm Jake cancer the producer Rebecca Grisedale Sherry the media podcast is a PPM production will be back in the awesome.

So until then goodbye.

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