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Hello and welcome to the media podcast by Molly man on today's show after Weinstein what happens next as other male execs at outed and what actors and presenters share their stories will be scandal be the one that finally changes the culture of the entertainment industry James Harding leaves BBC news for pastures new we look at how he coped in arguably the toughest job in journalism.
Ofcom lays down the law on Radio 1 and Daily Mail get stuff with its graduates and in the media quiz we did you switch returning formats will return it all to come on stage with your body and joining us today is the special correspondent for BuzzFeed UK it's James Ball welcome to the show thank you welcome back.
You've got a book out.
How bullshit Conquered the world I do indeed and it seems to be still doing quite well in the 6 months since I've read that so it hasn't heard the kodi yatse.
I thought you.
Christ you referring to the book just as bullshit like people like yeah, I was in Lane is so give us a call as well as fake news on Donald Trumps I'm there.
I'm reading it and joining James this week making her Media podcast debut is reporter Nestor endeavour cauliflower and hello.
Hi your background is BBC Radio hello about that.
I wasn't well service for quite a long time.
I had a bit and then I worked for BBC business for a bit these days are mostly working on a podcast.
It's called the gentle not so it's trying to figure out a new gender roles well bring an interesting perspective on our first story now as I'm glad you're here because we're starting this week with the story that has all of the entertainment industry talking and that of course is the fall of Harvey Weinstein now.
I know what you're thinking well.
That's a Hollywood problem, and that's plenty of American podcast covering that yes, but of course actor.
And presenters on both sides of the Atlantic have been sharing their stories of abuse at the hands of various male.
Xx and the Fallout has continued with Amazon Studios Roy price resigning this week amid accusations of unwanted advances to a producer and according to the Daily Mail the actor Anna Friel as well as how much of this isn't a surprise you mean in terms of Hollywood or in terms of the world of work well, but you take it how you would like I think most women a lot of it doesn't seem that off.
It's not even so much the abuse stuff, but the harassment stuff and I think pretty much a lot of women wore thing yeah believable be difficult to use calling it out.
Isn't it? Yeah? You know it did the point is that people are often does a targeted cos it might not be that deliberate but often these powerful male executives will go after women who feel they can't report it at the expense of their careers as that's what I and also sort of just a cold Trev women speaking out.
How that gets taken like it's.
Very fine line.
You've got a walk as a woman and you see that like even in the highest echelons of power like I mean Hillary Clinton being the best example with her book recently where she called people out in that did not go down well, so thank you go from that to day today and the office blue st.
James' is a high-profile women who have actually come forward with allegations and accusations and yet.
They seems it appeared reluctant to do that until the ball was rolling.
Why do you think that would be fighting the issue is even for quite powerful people in Hollywood if they speak out of turn they often suddenly find a lot of the work in a lot of the commission drying up Wednesday things happened to them quite often.
They weren't in powerful positions and then when you haven't said anything for €1 for 2 years.
You know there's going to be backlash later.
Why didn't you speak out sooner this is on you.
We've got some of cultural where amazing at blaming women for bad things that men do and we have seen that in women that spoken out now.
It's ok for you to say but if you done it's 30.
Years ago or 20 years ago or 10 years ago because if they had done it 10 years ago would have never heard of them and there's also the issue of perhaps the media suppressing these stories and rumours around Harvey wins, did you think there's any truth in that? I think parks the issue would be stories as they're very difficult to write.
You know I've written up lawsuits from the US where people have alleged behaviour against quite senior Hollywood and entertainment figures another figures even when you've got a lawsuit to do it on there incredibly difficult stories and people come after you when you start seeing that lots of people settle these suits including people whose names haven't come up in the last few weeks.
You've got to be pretty damn sure if you go for this stuff.
I think some credit to the New York Times and the others for helping break the story and then actually to social media for one's not being a total villain in that for a few days and felt like everyone was going to paint this is one.
Villainous man and why won't he might be quite extreme case I think what's happened in the last few days with the me too campaign and things like that is this is more a kind of toxic culture across cely film that may be across the media that is being ignored and that something isn't it now probably is new in the last couple of years.
It feels like the kind of bowl on everyday sexism and all of the related things to that has no role to such an extent that actually people don't say as you were suggesting.
This is just a Hollywood problem people.
Do you say this is a problem about powerful men and women in the workplace across the board and sat in the UK media? What do you think the residents of this is something I was going to say earlier was there and what is interesting to me as the New Yorker story was written by Ronan farrow.
So he'll try to do the story and BC and they had made all these excuses for why they couldn't with someone like that like you know he had a real drive for over a year to get the story of it, but the reason I bring him up is because he's written about how much the studio's and the system around the film industry kind of really suppress the media and suppress.
Journalist so that you get the sense that and less like you really had an n on these stories are like a personal reason to bring them up as just a journalist.
It was just impossible to get near a young as well the avener Mia Farrow son means he has a caution right.
I mean if you're just a journalist pushing and pushing and pushing for years and they want to take the story that's a bit harder as a freelancer isn't it? I mean it's often the tail really for anyone.
You know the people who break these big stories.
They have to have some facts of the pushes them and drive some to it because you know for all that if you do manage to break it through if you do get there you get plaudits.
You know you write much less often.
You are financially struggling if you don't already have a profile this stuff, so really hard to do you don't we often under credit it and then turns into a why didn't someone do it earlier.
Why did people do this is this stuff is hard when you're going up against kind of powerful interests so I'm well except in the case of NBC they themselves do have been that support to do this.
He took the story to them.
They said no as soon as to answer my question.
Baby actually one of the repercussions for the UK media industry years if you are running a major news operation in this country someone comes to you and says this well-known executive is alleged to have done this.
Maybe it now becomes the point where people feel that she have to say let's investigate this otherwise They're gonna end up later taking the flag for it.
I think something that's happened the past, 5-6 years with the whole budget issue a cross-media like investigative departments of largely been cut apart from that you get a few big stories like this.
So maybe that'll be some sort of a push to make sure that but it's aren't carbs in people who's working on these stories.
Let's be honest though a part of the issue as well for not NBC but lots of other companies is the news is a small division of a huge entertainment company and you have competing interests and the head of the department might be absolutely on side and wanting to tell the story but they won't stay the head of the news department if they try and do it well and in some cases that it's because it's not the news that makes the money it's
Talent and that often ties into the Firm or two people that you know the top of the company know and so there are quite big conflict of interest for the media when it reports on themselves, just because of who owns this could be the case in terms of Roy price couldn't say I mean actually there is a separate allegation that he may have actually personally molested someone but in terms of the main sort of thrust of the argument against him.
It was that effectively as a line manager someone came to him and said I've been rape by Harvey Weinstein and he didn't do anything about it.
I mean if you think back to Savile and all the radiators at the BBC who knew what Jimmy Savile was up to maybe not the extent of it, but you had a rough idea, when did nothing you can argue that the general attitude of that's not my problem mate.
That's changed and that's what you've got a home works for American media and I think cell still for places here.
I don't think we can pretend this is a US problem.
Just as Savile hopefully has sharpened things up at the BBC sent me on those fronts, but you'd hope more widely on abuse in on a salt.
Maybe this will start to change and Fairy antiquated Hollywood system that hands huge amounts of power to Almost universally straight white middle-aged men and no sorry on the gender knot your podcast that you mentioned you talk about the experiences of women and gender roles particularly in the media.
So what do you think these candles are going to have on people like you who work in it's been quite excited in if that's the right way to say exciting with past 2 weeks have been interesting cos you know you are you are seeing a lot of people speak out another woman speaker in a way that I think has not been ok up to now.
So I just been quite forceful and being quite frank about it.
So I kind of think yeah the culture of people having to hear women and women journalists in ways that they're not used to is going to have to change just because I think a lot of female jealousy just sick of having to like be the people who speaks truth to Justice but do it in a way that doesn't offend people too much because that's quite hard lines her it has gone hard.
Cheyne walk, but I just feel like the last 2 weeks.
There's just been a lot of like screw that I'm just gonna say it like it is and on the subject of Ronan farrow.
Is you say break this story.
He just landed the Channel 4 show James believe me this is just fortuitous timing castelli tends to investigate Talent quite a long time before they sign them up giving how long ago this must have been agreed.
They must be through maybe this is just channel fours brilliant PR drive for the new show you that I can you just hang off heartbreaking that story and I am a cross joking, but I mean it so they've been there.
They really wanted to crack the night night for my Ashes ITV in the UK and every time they tried something it hasn't really landed so we don't have the last leg that actually really has worked but you know the 10:00 show full actually it was quite good.
Sorry said he had a second season.
It didn't really attractive audience ITV's latest effort hasn't really won me over certainly and so actually bringing in American to try it and kind of
Doing that well be outside the Seas more of the game kind of thing like it in the UK going hey what you guys doing I could see it working and he's pretty experience TV host is well-connected the tricky thing for them is gonna be if America seller wants to do an obvious promotion or something for him.
Will they be able to retain the Talent in the same as it's kind of last week tonight with John Oliver bud on its head.
Isn't it? So you have a British production team working on a show with an American for a British audience outside talk about the BBC news there this week is that James Harding head of BBC News is to leave The Corporation as where's he going so he's off to start his own media company and it's because he wants to be able to do stories in the way that you can't do at the BBC currently that means.
What do we think I think because the BBC has a quite hard role in trying to be everything to everyone it can make it editorially quite hard.
To be hard hitting sometimes in certain ways to it's funny.
Cos James Harding has said something quite vague, but I'd know what he means of someone with the BBC I mean into really dumb it down.
He basically means doesn't he stories that have a bit of an opinion but have a bit of bite.
Yes, probably something with a bit of buy a bit of an angle and sometimes you know the BBC can't speculate it.
Can't sort of DeWalt something like politico or access my do which you could quite easily see Harding jumping into I mean this wouldn't be the first time that James Harding is names been connected to upcoming editorial chairs any time any editors seats vacant someone mentions James Harding laureate, so there's rumours about the ft.
But there are also rumours.
He's lined up investors already for whatever is new singer follicles both might be true.
I suppose with a man in that kind of position.
I maybe probably could quite easily lineup investors and try it for six months has happened.
I would have thought if you've been the son of directives.
Using current affairs for the BBC and you step into a new job.
Why do it on a slightly smaller scale as much as it would be nice to be back in a newspaper.
I'm sure he's headed to the time.
She's mad that very senior BBC role.
He's quite well regarded.
Why not actually try something new and also possibly if he's a founder get rich off it but also seems to be the answer that might be so that you can do a bit of reporting to can do a bit of writing so you can actually get hands-on and edit stuff as a car which bit more managerial.
I can imagine someone like him wanting to get back into like the news in to report.
What's a cos.
He he had a show towards the end on the world service called on background.
I think which was mostly him and correspondent delving into new stories a bit so I can actually see the appeal of someone like him wanting to go back to doing something small way.
He's like very hands-on bored actually like going through the story is rather than can I looking at big vision for a department or something.
The appeal of a start-up flooring more than I could see the appeal of Sadie ft build around saying do it your way having small enough that you can have your finger inside of every pie.
I could see that working fine.
He's been very good you saying there's about what it is that you going to start up, but if you were saying where there's a gap in the market, where would that be actually because there are so many news websites for every possible flavour of news at the moment and let's presume.
This is a digital offering.
What's left to startup in is a solid UK founded version of politico now that might be a nonsense rumour that might be chatter, but you could sort of see it working except for the fact that politico itself is doing it.
You've got a good morning email culture hear you've got quite a lot of that stuff anyway, and you know the likes of Ian Dale and guido Fawkes and all the rest of it triangle that stuff out for the last 10 years and there are alternatives out there for people on as well as our mainstream press actually doing some of the in-depth reporting Liscard anyway.
I might wonder about something like a UK box, but hopefully back.
Or a UK version of quartz kind of places that look at policy or look at some of what's actually going on but then try and actually make it interesting and short and internet data that could be something that might have a bit of a gap here.
I would have thought you know what we used to call explanatory journalism and if he's listening James Ball is about every month so available for ingrown hair very strong affiliation with your own rumoured idea.
I wonder if you want to do something with emerging technology in there because like you say that isn't an existing obvious gap the emerging technology and journalism thing is still quite horse an exciting my imagine there a lot of companies who might want someone like him on board to test things out if he wants to invest in billion pounds and podcasting Matalan I can help him out with an empire there in other news at Auntie Ofcom have finally published their terms of service for the BBC which includes decrease on providing more British programming + more than use in Peak time on radio.
And Radio 2 this necessary, do you know the usual BBC trust the decree dismissing them off, doing it but actually most the targets.
They say it seems to me the BBC achieve anyway a lot of it.
Also feels really outdated any kind of younger audience now is completely used to and love scanning international content and that's what makes it competitive and the BBC's got increasingly good at making content internationally as well.
You know BBC America is partnerships Paul more money in and if that then sorted gets hit by britishness quotas.
It's not serving the BBC all the audience the sort of hero of this kind of paternalistic Force feeding xmas news programming in this hour.
No not at 21 before 8:30 p.m.
And 7 minutes of it and 3 of it must cover based.
It's nonsense because it's not how many of us listen to radio now we get our favourite shows has podcast we dip in and out and say.
I wonder if they sort of like an ignorant version of King canute a bit they tried to solve keep the media as it was in about 1990 ignorant bully have consulted haven't known as and they've decided you know let's try and put some targets in place that only the BBC can do you know capital radio is not going to happen investigation about HIV which they gonna run at 6, but Radio 1 we can force to do that and what's weird is because of like how we consume Media you can go to what you need, but it's not like I can only listen to Radio 1 and I must get the diet of news and sport and entertainment and whatever all on this one channel is that if you want use you go to a Channel 4 News if you want something else to go to the so it kind of assumes that we're in an old model where you only have like a limited amount of sources to get your Media but I don't know it's a bit bizarre to me having worked in beauty news yourself actually one isn't refreshing when you are making a version of your story for a mainstream audience.
He wasn't expecting it like if you only just make stuff for the self selecting audience of people who like that content in a way.
No one ever.
There was anything no, that's true, but at the same time now that people can listen to whatever they want.
There is the danger of trying to make something for a different audience and if they're just not interested there.
Just gonna switch off Radio 2 to be the case is one thing to say let's make news for young people cos at least that is a niche that isn't the same been covered apart from by voice or whatever but it would Radio 2.
I'm in literally no one listening to Radio 2 wants more news.
Do they say why they doing it? Did he just asked about young people used to BuzzFeed employee advice is the only person in a BBC style? There's a niche in the market but with with news for people in their 50s who would otherwise be listening to LBC ice cube.
I just don't even your to need to do that.
I mean audiences in their 50s and 60s.
I'm not under 7 years ago.
Did they get that motivates the less offensive version of my point? Do you see where is said she young audiences will engage with News when it's shaped for them when it's about things that they're interested in and when they want it and if
People are listening to Radio 1 they usually do I get to relax it's good that is a bit of a bulleted.
It's good to some stuff there you know Newsbeat is a decent operation though.
I'm sure they can sharpen up bore you know things like how do you deal with politicians lying when you're only doing a 15 second clip that kind of stuff they still have to engage in but do they have to do much more of it and would they keep their audience that's tricky because the BBC's not doing well at reaching young people already.
Have a Sophie then make it even harder for them to do so it's not necessarily going to help anything we can hear from the delightful tone of your voice, but perhaps she won't board within the confines of the M25 what about this business about doing more programming in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland is that the right thing for Ofcom saver BBC should do yes actually a kind of is I think initially this started quite gimmicky when the BBC did it what was happening was people work from London would being flown to Northern Ireland are being blown up to Scotland and we're making a programs but you know Media City Salford is really works.
Why can't we have that in Leeds in Newcastle United Edinburgh or Glasgow up in Belfast it should be a national broadcaster and that does mean more more of it outside of here and there is still so much of it in London your Nottingham back to the thing about having more programs made within the UK the way to do that is to have more people based outside of London because I think the problem with places like London is that you do also get a bit of a sort of international leave you to a lot of things you make so I think you're having more officers based outside of London for just the media in general.
You're going to get a mole British sort of sense of what's going on ok? We'll have more of varnish on demand news program for young kids after this this episode of the media podcast was once again recorded at run VT in the heart of Soho are friends that run BT have 15 offline and 2 online Suites as well as a spectacular baselight grading.
To go alongside this a dubbing sweet and voice-over Booth which I mean now in it, but wait I hear you cry, what can I watch that run VT have been working on recently well, how about bad habits? Holy orders a four-part factual series airing on Channel 5 on Thursday night.
Yes, please edit your next show at run VT go to Romsey t.tv.
Don't just amusing breathe now James and there's are still with me James Murdoch retains the chairmanship of Sky thoughts and the objections of the shareholders were pretty good.
He got 51.16% of the voting which is really low and it's cos they said he had a conflict of interest it wasn't that.
They were saying is bad chair 21st Century Fox is trying to buyers you're involved with that you're involved with this.
That's a conflict of interest.
It's one that will resolve itself one Way Or Another so I guess it's a blip and referring back to what you were saying about locating BBC programming, but it's out of London there's now a campaign in Leeds to bring Channel 4 to that city that yesterday campaigners for Channel fools HQ to move entirely to Leeds which I think is a pretty good idea because you don't worry it's very clear to everyone who works there.
Don't want to go there.
Isn't it? All media should be made from Yorkshire as far as I'm concerned.
It's a story that I think did resonate with the lord of our listeners.
Who are graduates who are undergraduates the moment.
I'm preparing for a career hopefully in the media.
Which is this which is the story that the tab round about graduates on the mails programme James had a spare this Daily Mail has a graduate program that that you do actually learn to be a journalist doing it, but there's been a lot of people saying this isn't proper journalism, so there are some questions around essentially the males grad scheme in terms of if you end up on the Daily Mail you get a very intensive very difficult course that actually still teaches you how to do a regional and reporting it means calling people out.
New sources, are you looking for sale house in at 5 a.m.
To try and all stop someone all of that still happens if you end up on the MailOnline you end up in what Nick Davies would call churnalism you get a target of 8 stories a day.
You are rewriting you are picked captioning.
You are working usually from 17 to 2 a.m.
Friday to Tuesday which is an awful shift pattern to be on for any length of time and a lot of them.
So they drop out early and then get charged 1500 quid for their training and the issue is this isn't training you to do anything other than regurgitate other content for junk food clicks glad.
It's over isn't it male online story that is a career for someone.
I mean I I hate sursound sceptical about the media, but that is a big chunk of how things have been done.
I can see why you'd be annoyed if you're on my screen, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily you're not.
Running something useful I hate to say that given that there are so many jobs that are literally that.
What would your advice be actually for people who seem to be Media graduates listening to this about how to crack into the industry.
You know if it isn't to get a placement at associated which is one of the major newspaper groups in this country.
I feel very make some ways.
I tell someone don't go into media right now unless you have some sort of cushion and I hate that I say that but that's just like a reality on the other hand I would say maybe if you want to start it sort of a smaller company run by younger people because I feel like they'll be more opportunity to do some hands-on.
Things rather than like this colour scheme.
I think it's also a bit seneca like you know all of these young people to do some online things that don't add much but they're young.
They can do it quickly you know David Jones do it when looking for new employees graduate employees are they looking for trained journalists.
I'm sure they are a bit, but they just as much looking for people who have experienced a more agile young companies it really does depend that mean BuzzFeed runs fellowship scheme which is
Really tight that people without any of that traditional staff you coming for 3 months.
It's paid it's more like a long internship, but people are often hired directly off that which is why we have and you dream that I think it's about 24% BME 15% LGB it's young.
It's a bit more working class of a lot of places and people actually learn to do the job because no one in BuzzFeed does 8 storeys everyday 8 stories a day isn't a career.
It's a job.
It only teaches you how to do that kind of stuff and so really if you want to come in and have a career.
You're much better starting somewhere smaller and often less glamorous cido business to business trade publications sometimes even a good locals you will learn a lot more and you might not have that kind of course agency start out of a national that you will at least have the skills to build a career.
So I'm 32.
I think that applies to my generation as well starting small and local lie.
Do you actually get to like two things that are going to be that are going to teach you a long-wearing be useful so but to be fair to the Daily Mail which isn't something I often it is a natural graduate scheme when people get paid your yes, they have to pay back if they quid but they are being training something and there are in the very ambitious very competent people will surely be able to side step into a genuine journalism roller working on video.
I'm in a huge opportunities there that are being offered to graduate.
I would definitely differentiate the people who end up on those online rolls first as the others and there are people who have been on these schemes.
He will very vigorously defended.
I'll say stuff, but it's doing your time.
It's the new version of sitting in Council meetings and so it's definitely defensible but I wonder should that just be a particular set of skills Training job rather than a traineeship.
Is it really the most educational sing to write 8 storeys a day for 9 months? I'm not totally sold ok? Let's talk about the Guardian ex-employee of Mr Ball as well and they're latest incentive.
Which is VR that have been doing this for you? Haven't made Francesca panetta.
You smoke podcast for the Guardian possibly field as now heads up there VR department making new VR content may she with this because they gone big on this morning everyone headset if they want one of them.
They said look at all this cool content with made my issue with this is there is a lot of talk about in the media industry with Donna very interesting special On It Right Here on the media podcast look Scirocco if you want to know all about 360 video on how much different to be out in the wild meeting the general public talking to my family.
I think these things that any sort of tech people on media people care about it kind of makes sense because I I think it's really sort of dry approach to storytelling like you know you read an in-depth Tony 20000 word PC a really good documentary you connect to it because there's that sounds of emotions as that sounds of someone guiding you and as the sense of like the reporter bring the person who like let you into another world and you don't get that with VR YouTube
Put on headset and there's just a lot going on visually but that say you don't actually get a sense for the stories.
They think it's something that's more interesting for like text people and media people who like United thinking content.
Why is rather than emotion wise.
Eventually the Mechanic of delivery stops being the story you know be like podcasting.
I guess you know in 10 years time people just lots of laughing.
It won't be gamifying the story or just the story will be on because it should be I mean I think medias got in the Habit of pushing formats onto the audience that we hope will work but I think the gardener being pretty savvy to push the it's always be hardly talk about the Guardian voluntary redundancy or virtual reality and actually there but the reality is very good.
They've made some very good stuff and there's funding available there's places son of giving them grants to explore it.
It's our said she goes where have you done something that The Emperor's New Clothes funding that advertises? It's a hot word.
It's a keyword, is it?
Why not if there's funding available if they can get some stories told if they can pay 506 skilled staff to learn some new skills debuts its tell stories about solitary confinement that kind of stuff if that's why there's some money and they're trying to test it with an audience add magic again with some funding it's good for places to experiment and it's good for the Guardian to look at any sensible revenue source it can get and so yeah, I'm not a big we are found personally.
I'm not sure it's going to be the future of journalism, but if places I wanted to test that and if they can make a bit of money doing it good on them for trying it out well in stunning analogue flat reality there is just time for our Media quiz this week.
It's entitled axed or back.
I'll share 3 classic media Brands and you have to tell me if they're making a return or if they're being put out of their misery all you need to do is say aksed or back is the best of three buzzing with your name when you know the answers and as he will say.
James you will say the winner gets an executive credit when the format transfers to television.
Question number one is it asked or is it back buzzing with your name when you know the answer Crimewatch James James axed after 33 years correct but the Crimewatch Roadshow continues in daytime, what's the crime watch Roadshow Antiques Roadshow but you get the bugs on the way out.
Will you miss Crimewatch has never seen it now.
I have but it's kind of not relevant.
It doesn't happen any more shoreline criminals is by me the former is Alexa what I meant.
Why why isn't it relevant this kind of this format of a show that everyone watches at the same time and you call in at we just don't consume Media that wear animal.
Are you if a crime happens to just put up online and get people to the gallery.
We played guess the grime Elemis they don't have nightmares.
Yes, but ok.
He's format number to you've got to tell me if it's an act or if it's back buzzing with your name Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy James James it's back it is because Teresa something for a sixth series 4 BBC radio based on the book written with permission from Douglas adams's it's stayed at for a bonus point what anniversary are they celebrating this year the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Timor anniversary.
Are they celebrating this year? I'm looking at XL James completely come to you on this.
I'm sorry not to guess that yes, it is the 40th year since the radio series aired and his question number three james' already one but now as I'm rooting for you.
Is it acts tour back The Thick of It Malcolm Tucker buzzing with your name? You know the answer that you got to say your name is back.
Inner peace with the biggest you this week where Tucker is interviewed about brexit by Alan Partridge am I doing on the everywhere? Isn't it? As always if you could feel that yeah, it's funny that isn't it and resurrected the Greatest Hits to push the side of the offbeat one.
You know why not why not actually by the way if you are a fan of podcast his last Piriton Richard Herrings Leicester square, theatre, podcast was hilarious listen to that James you are this week's winner congratulations well done now that was a poor show but otherwise otherwise a good effort for your Media podcast debut do come back again that is it for a show for today.
My thanks to James Anthony you can catch up with all previous episodes and get new ones for soon as they're released by subscribing for free on our website via Media podcast.
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I've been on him and the producer Matt Hill the media podcast is a PPM production until next time.
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