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Read this: BONUS - Fake News and the Fallout - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

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BONUS - Fake News and the Fallout - The …



Hello Media podcast friends we have another bonus episode for you today all about fake news more on that in a second but first off a huge.

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Hello.

I'm only man and today on the media podcast trump fake news at the fall out in association with the Edinburgh TV festival and their partners idea.

We bring you an in-depth discussion recorded in front of a live audience and what we can learn following president Trumps victory and the rise of fake news will hear from Brian stelter Sr

Media correspondent at CNN Jim Waterson political editor at BuzzFeed UK Ayesha hazarika former advisor to Ed Miliband the Guardian Carole cadwalladr, and Facebook's Patrick Walker your host of channel fours.

I want to start with you Bryan you said there are three main types of fake news.

What are they? Really quickly work by BuzzFeed another been studying this rise of misinformation.

Define designed to deceive people in what I think about the purest form of the so-called fake news ideas home design game traffic a million page views partly through social networks and online partly through email forward at the idea here is the profit off of 40 people and of course we've all known that it's been around for concentrated purified form of made up news and things are designed to trick people II bucket I would describe it as a hybrid and Oracle that's half real have fake or a little bit real and mostly fake.

I have the tablet me on a personal basis the first paragraph of the story was only true in another apps for paragraphs were entirely made up.

So how you figure out that when your news consumer how you know where the truth stops and A Y starters awfully confusing III by describes a few months ago on on cinemas is Hyper partisan Facebook Twitter pages Twitter pages anywhere else social media you can find his hyper partisan, Communities that are ignorant of the truth.

It's not that.

They are wrong with their their information, but they are selectively removed their confusing a lager lies by herself with companies hyper partisan pages taking a true picture.

Maybe her stumbling and then building out this crazy story off of it, so I think of those three bucket.

But can I get a van that is 3 months old and we're probably past that point now and Margaret Sullivan in the Washington Post this week's suggested.

We should just retire the term fake news on together and she could well.

I'll be right about that the term has been exploited misuse redefine bipartisan including by the president of the United States a few hours ago calling the most recent report about Russia fake news at that's not the academic version of fake news is not what the time has come to mean for the bus didn't seem end of the world but we are scenery definition of this language and so I would say these pure site these hoaxes these made up stories.

That's the pure version of this.

That's the pure concentrated problem in front of us and then from there.

They are related problems about why people labelling real news organizations fake news stories that are very clearly designed to deceive that we saw.

Post-truth news here in Britain is that same thing I'd say the Brian's definitions update the ones that I'd agree with antennae when I agree to do this again.

I didn't expect to have the president of the United States tweeting at my outlet was fake news a total political witch hunt last night before I came along a bit of a shark in a few things going to say but we won't be going into the depth of the allegations but you can read them buzzfeed.com the main thing I want to do in terms of the British take on this is I was doing some analysis on this we don't quite have a fake news problem in the UK in the ferry pure sense of completely made up stories.

You do not get Jeremy Corbyn is endorsed by the Pope go viral on the UK internet when you did get the equivalent story Donald Trump indoors photo going viral in the US I don't quite know why this is yet, but my theory is essentially that the British hyperpartisan newspaper industry has filled the gap very very well all ready for the point where what goes.

Marilyn the UK are stories that fall into the secondary parts for sale of the kernel of Truth with a massive political spin on it which is essentially what a lot of British newspapers have been doing for decades now, so what's going viral is actually traditional British tabloid journalism in the UK and it tends to fall into one of three topics either islamophobia or some variant thereof either all trump brexit UKIP supporters a stupid and I may remain person.

I'm going to share this article to make me look good or Third part.

Which is something that the mainstream Media is not telling you about those the three strands of things to go ultra 5 on UK internet and encourage fake news off before the second variety in the UK now the thing with post truth isn't that big then becomes problematic because is the 350 million pound player on the side of a bus faults well, it's probably dubious.

I mean there's money being sent of that sort of brighter.

You can then do a fact check that no one's going to read and disputed but label.

It is absolutely.

Fake news when someone's making outlandish claims a big call for a news organisation is a big cold for a social networks such as Facebook to ban that just because someone's being a bit deluded I mean that's basically what any newspapers been doing in the UK for decades now, so I actually get some much more problematic thing in the UK cos we've not actually gone through the outright.

Lie stage which has happened in most of Europe in Italy you seen it with five star movement accounts pushing that in Germany of seeing it head of there elections in the USA definitely sort which is why we discussing it here today so the issue in the UK media and online on Facebook is basically hyperpartisan sites generally taking facts completely out of context and then pleasing there audience by meeting one of those three categories.

I talked about and they are United echo chamber staff and it's actually much hunts Crackdown on because it's very rare that there's a complete falsehood that goes viral in the UK well, then Carol that perhaps raises the question.

female political situation both sides of the Atlantic in each case somehow facilitated fake news the event I'm from Wales and I went to Ebbw Vale which is there to do snakes like Nye Bevan called Sikhs and one of the things which puzzled me at the time because I was standing in front of his gleaming buildings which the EU title against the New Road which the EU paid for next-day new train station which Dua paid for an and I was just really curious about how the way that these things were just so visible that it had the highest leave vote in Wales and one of the things that should have struck me off with when I came to start looking at the way that these sources of information between Reading and accessing via Facebook and Google etc was just this thing of that we didn't know where that was coming from it was opaque it to me at that time that we didn't know what pieces people Reading or what sort of

Jason and actually we now have no access to that because it's kind of all in the dark.

What people was seeing on their individual Facebook pages and what they were saying in their individual Google Search results are highly personalized to them and we have no idea that unrecorded anywhere so it was just the thought of the way that now looking back and what happened in the last year where people getting information from what they were reading is Son of honourable and forever really and I think I found most frightening looking back and trying to put of understand.

What's been happening.

I'm into specific things about the American situation one did the conventional Media or mainstream liberal praises do enough to call trump out first of all and then II did people become dependent on unverified and trustworthy and black new and perhaps potentially interesting site.

This idea that are the we have no idea why that what does hypothetical voter was seeing on his Facebook page Facebook feed with their friends were sharing because it was all algorithm.

Personalised does it gets to this sense of an alternate reality that was possible to existing before election day and I'll be asleep still possible today.

No matter what country you are in in the US there's certainly that sense of us a very strong alternate reality on the right.

There is the sun degree alternate realities exist on the left, but on the right there more Media outlets that are designed to feed that there is a perception of the election that at work trump voters living in his alternate reality on Facebook sharing these stories about something that were lysed and that were causing the vote for trump.

Don't think we can say that I think that's provable probably because you know everyone is on their own version of the internet, but I think is 100 reasons why the vote ended up the way it did I viewed as 100 rows of the day but

Would we be having this debate Hillary want a real academic and journalistic attempt to figure this out and some average with Facebook and Twitter and Google to try to tackle some of the most clearly made up stories and I think about the last day for one of my favourite Donald Trump votes of the Year he said to me to press single word we see on the internet.

I would like to say the mainstream Media provide all the information voters needed.

I firmly believe if you go back to the transcripts of the broadcasters had all the facts remain they wanted and needed at some photos photos not a sick.

Out and I'm really impressed by Facebook's her her for this experiment to put labels below disputed Fakenham store.

Will it snow in spring Patrick in no I mean what what is a Facebook come in for a lot of criticism was carried to some extent in parity between fake and mainstream.

What measures have you taken your Facebook is a new sort of platform and it's only 12 years old 13 years old the newspapers is 10 years old is evolving and Facebook has become an important source for information and source for news.

We don't create that music Facebook we work with partners such as SI unit in the Guardian BuzzFeed in Chalfont others to to help them brighten the radius distribute and we also allow people to share anything instantaneously which creates its own challenges of course because you have to make sure that you have safeguards in place for people to be able to flag things are going to buy things that are either carpool or somehow perhaps it in this particular case something they feel might be miss information, so are we already have long-standing community standards with regard to.

Contend that would be no hate speech violence and things that might be harmful to a 13 + allianz the Miss information and hooks situation.

Is is is really push data to drive a whole bunch of new initiatives that addressed specifically one of those is easier reporting for users so operating of the flag something that just creates more signals for us to them respond to the other one is a flagging things that or perhaps untrue or maybe unconfirmed and so were working with third parties fact-checking organisations that we can can I get to the bottom of the worst of the worst of things that spike quickly and working with fact-checking organization's initial in the US will be will be expanding this internationally and organisations of all the point is international code of principles for a fact checking and what distance is created.

Does it mean to book at sure it does it mean it comes off if it's not against Archimedes debtors, but it creates a warning label that says you know if you share this isn't this is potentially misinformation.

I'm irritable deprecated and it means you can't then also run ads on it, but you can't make it into an artery can promote it.

So where did we see a lot of that goes into this information is actually financially driven, which means me to the next one which is really going after where the money is generated.

This is something we definitely could have done better before this environment recently has really helped this dig deeper and faster to read out the problem and we found that there are a number of organisations that work try to mirror or appear to be something that you're not going after that.

We're making sure that you can replicate or create bespoke site.

We go back and check before your about the user as you know that you have to have some sort of her history and this week.

We think they will hear a large portion of it is just concentration of are news values which is very much focused on authenticity and people being able to adjust an inform themselves and we we read signals from people's everyday usage if something is red and it's not forwarded or it starts somewhere.

In the middle the data signal to a site that might not be inaccurate or useful bit of information there probably deprecated so was all these signals and these are things that are still in early phases.

We've done workshops at news organizations and in seven cities around your for the last 2 months as well, so will allow the word for doing is listening and collaborating and try and understand how we can do better together, but it's not an easy problem solve, and it is a bit of a game of whack-a-mole as well if you know that tournament just that you know as soon as you starting point some for the policy.

There are always some elements that are trying to use this technology for something that might not be so wholesome for democracy as you're going to the seven cities Armin what are the things? I think you detect Edition and which I think was apparent that there is a very big diversity between London Metropolitan London and the country and Anna probably was true New York and the country and and and Los Angeles and the country.

And what I find particularly speaking to MPs and myself going Cove around and about in a course in a media commentators.

Well, there was there was such a diary of being a television to do lots of commentators in London and they would seem very very confidently there is no way we are leaving the absolutely no and this was right up until before the Sunderland results dropped.

I was in her ITV Studios but you would speak to MPs particularly labour MPs with northern constituencies and they would bring back intelligence say look I've been door knocking every weekend for 7 weeks and haven't met a single person on the doorstep who wants to vote to remain in the EU and they were bringing this information about that there was just we will for some reason we just didn't want to be here and I think that's partly I mean I found this on the 20 and the 2015 general election campaign particularly with Twitter and Facebook

Because political campaigning by its nature is is hyperpartisan and as Jim said our traditional particular print Media broadcast lesson because there are different impartiality rules but I newspapers and very very party Sanders a conflation between news and comment as well and I think that has just made that people think what politics is and having a few now is about being hyper partisan, and it's about going into your conference or not really looking at what's actually happening but going into a safe space for you.

You get confirmed what you want to hear something in the 2015 General Election we thought I'd Miliband is going to be Prime Minister because we had this phenomenon called Millie fandom.

Because some lovely sort of 14-year-old girls like I think it's quite hot and I cannot stay with me but like him and it can we were not in the echo chamber of our Twitter feed and it was like yeah, it's like going really really well and you and again because there was a staff about the polls I mean.

Other thing that comes into all the fake news and the politics is the pulling Industries had quite a tough time for not catching big things that happening breaks it Halloween things so we had pulling company.co labour zone cost to being the biggest party, but we we go out on the doorstep of we would hear something different but then we look at Arsenal Twitter feeds on Facebook and everybody including senior politicians senior strategies senior political editor as everyone retreated into the comfort zone that the they wanted to say there is a very dangerous disconnect between us and London to have lots of power and Influence and a voice and what is going on with the rest of country because that's essentially in my view.

What breaks it was all about World War One very big and to do we have mentioned is Google you've written extensively about the role of Google what is it in the news and information.

The Muppet Show the not present.

Song for big what is at stake is so massive democracy is at stake or political system is at stake needs a massive questions and the role of Google and Facebook is absolutely shooting it so it's all very well for us to sit here and opine that actually the technology giant who is serving us these absolutely we don't know how they are working.

I've got no idea.

How your algorithm surfaces news to individual users.

I've got no idea despite writing about it for the last month how Google search algorithm works and why it is surfacing right wing extremist hate websites you know in answer to very simple queries just mentioned so well.

Started as I think I just started out typing Jews into Google to search bar and this lead me very quickly to I think I would you and Google gave me the suggestion evil and I was like well.

That's an interesting question to ask Google let's see what happens when I've just clicked returning and asked that and I got eight out of ten of the top search results with anti-semitic hate site which said yes shoes are evil and from there like I got LED down a kind of into a suet really of a sudden.

I hadn't you know the internet use it all the time everyday.

I write about the internet as well.

You know I had the most of mainstream point of view and I had no idea that this content was there being answer to the very simple questions about any of the Sword of contentious issues Google was serving up these neo-nazi websites even let you know very simple playing.

And and I can get any answers from Google and I found this incredibly frustrating because I think it is absolutely our right as citizens to know how this information is being delivered to us on what grounds what is authoritative who is deciding that an engineer who decided to go picking up.

Let me know the reason I'm here is because of course.

It's important we engage in dialogue.

We take our role in the news ecosystem.

Very seriously, I think I'm pregnant on the pill behind the news feed to help better inform that thinking and we publish this right think it's worth reiterating.

You know Facebook is a place where people connect with a friend of the family.

They go on there for a multitude of different reasons and they make choices as to who they connect with their followers who unfollow have you ever unfollowed somebody are you you asked to see less of what they put on the Facebook.

I'm so we respect people.

Choices how many of you have more friends on Facebook be properly interact with on any given day everyone so if you were to just leave it up to some for the chronological order but you seeing your news feed you would have thousands of posts in know what about server that would somehow relate to what we've learnt from you is important that that post about your cousin's baby would be buried in €150 350 post down that news article that your best friend shirt on a topic that with that you've inform.

This is important to you might never be safe and we've also seen that we did things chronologically which we've done that people are consume Leicestershire Leicester use between for not serving and so we're just that the algorithm based on friends and family first based on authentic communication.

We communicate when we do chains around them, but we can publish the algorithm because that would also created some problems in terms of people trying to manipulate a for the wrong purposes, but it does have a practical reason behind it.

I think you understand it without an algorithm help.

Shape something towards your interests you would be it would be in our tax money out of information at the same time in a Facebook does strengthen weak ties and as you are indicated.

You are in contact with markup on Facebook then you realise therefore you are more likely to get a diversity of information and opinions through Facebook then you might otherwise be getting do your picking up a paper at the list and communicating with sending an email to your friend so I mean and people can use it which way they they they see fit and forcing some people try to manipulate a bit were trying to reactive people's desires and an interest rate something useful and allow people to communicate, but we also have this ongoing Battle of making sure we keep the battlements at better and that something you need to do collaboratively.

You know we understand the sentiment, but it's something that we have to address together can't publish the algorithm that you can certainly let expert cabin and look at it who are going to be coming from her and more independent angle.

I think that's something which is Z what is it?

Fitbit there something called algorithmic auditing and that's the sort of movement in academia, which is so we've got these clothes companies who use a Facebook is at all, but it's a massive corporate which is just trying to make money from us and and how you're making that money from us and how you are using data is something that I think there is a public interest to understand better and I think of your troubles by what's happening in the world right now and I take your point about working together and it's very keen but it's not enough that corporate information doesn't want you to put a share that we need it.

Cos it there because I just want to ask something which is also very gym in which we haven't covered and I want to ask you three who is better at this the right or the left.

I use the left is gaining in the UK they doing quite well with sites like the Canary so I think I think the left is it is adopting quite quickly.

Disregard for the facts particular things like brexit and particular things like supporting Jeremy Corbyn which in I think I just fighting Fire with Fire of the Carol spelt out and possession of the left or the right I think that's mainly on the right but I mean in terms of fake news and spreading things then I think the company particularly with Corbyn that's a really interesting phenomenon.

We seen because they approach the media strategies in terms of mainstream Media we're going to sort disregard that a bit I'm going to piss you much more on the social media the Facebook the the Twitter this can Piper party something but I think essentially the left is just a bit softer when it comes to this stuff the right is just much harder.

It's much.

I mean that the in the language of populism match with more ease and left sometimes when we would like to be seeing you in all the lock up.

Please.

It feels like you meeting up with like a potato gun stock for Machete fight in terms of our language and then and now.

The left has Jim said he's trying to tool itself up really hard to be really aggressive about food banks new signing into the cytoplasm as well and in the US as more than advertised on the right through these fake site right now and it was more of an appetite for Pro trump anti Hillary stories, then that was for anti trump protest that was true in the fake news before the election.

There is however no appetite for anti trump, be the consequences of the world's the best thing ever happened in my life right with this stage because everyone in the world can be a publisher.

It is the single greatest thing that ever happened.

It is in my life and yet we're talking about the did the Dire downsides of it all the consequences of people live in a publicized.

I think this is about information warfare in about journalist and newsreader.

Having to be a part of that war having to be home at War footing and Spice when Matt drudge, as he did last summer posted pictures of Hillary Clinton falling down the stairs and didn't put them in context and say that it was I see that day and February and she slept in it happens to all of us that Cameron's father's everyday you fight back if that didn't do enough news reporters have to accept more of this reality and in be on a war footing to respond to more about that really does take us to the last big area.

I just wanted to kiss you all engaged in the Void terms of the audience and then is how does the media all types rebuild Trust well BuzzFeed we eat.

We try and fluid in a little bit and engaged with things like that using for the Beat we are on the internet.

We understand how this go viral goes by a we understand the Elder of them, so we're gonna try to funking thing as we're going to.

Try that checking that thing you've seen all over your Facebook feed and we do find as a bigger audience for that however.

It's never going to be as big an audience as the total lie that you've just seen on a meme spreading across your friends Facebook you're on saying I can't believe this in the comments below it rebuilding Trust Carol about that.

It's bigger than these individual news organisations.

We are minnows compared to the power of Facebook and Google and not just because they've eaten our lunch in terms of advertising you know which is a the financial model of quality journalism has been destroyed by Facebook and Google and there is no obvious remedies that hard for us every year to invest in quality journalism that it's that these platforms are.

Getting a reality on use the information we get and they are pretending to be platform and I don't believe they are I believe that you are editing content.

I think that algorithms are editing what we are saying and I think you really need to own I can take responsibility for that.

Don't know where to start with me.

Let's see I'm a Foreman you doing that for the BBC I was coming conflict zones in Cambodia East Timor Pakistan and to get a story up 20 years ago.

I had to fill on a tape avoid ulcerative a horrible things along the way to some news feed location of the bride guard rhyme engineer pay $3,000 to send pictures back to London maybe in time for the 10 news of time and it was dodgy and it was very hard to get information out and was very limited and your prospective was also very limited technology has evolved to the point we have this mass democratisation of Media which makes people very uncomfortable because it means new rules but today in a wee empowered thousands and thousands of news organisations and journalists around the world to create content instantaneously distribute that also means we have to look at users creating can't industry internationally globally as the case may as well and it does create challenges.

So how do you can put the Genie back in the bottle of technology you have to find ways to address it and we doing a lot in that direction but I think you're looking than a telescope with a pretty broad landscape.

Interest so many more positives to this technology allowing people to share Channel 4 News itself is gone from 5 million views per month to 250 million views per month globally of their video on Facebook so you know the distribution of counting opportunity, but we can't ignore these concerns because they're very well.

We have to work together to address them to still go on about Rupert Murdoch on the Murdoch press controlling the narrative.

I mean he's selling about combined what 1.9 million newspapers a day of the UK population is log into Facebook and 1 sweets that algorithm which prioritises a certain sort of story and which ultimately the algorithm is controlled by someone in California can have a way bigger effects of what people actually reading the anyone like Rupert Murdoch could nowadays on the Facebook and Google then end on the social network to encourage more high-quality to put quality up hiring.

Is an individual journalists and then as long as we survive there is to assume the worst about the audience of readers and viewers are just hungry for some information text messages the email that you were not that a yes.

There is loud angry voices polluting my FB feed night even delete the comment but most readers most beautifully desperate for journalism right now.

I'm desperate for real real journalism right now and that's how we rebuild Trust by providing it in by taking them on their journey with us, so that we don't seem like these far away reporters who don't care about their eyes were actually in with their lives in some way Shirley Patrick we have to break the parity of esteem for conventional and new media and what do you mean examine the social media for our time? It's been possible to see in news feed in which there is a mix of

The one on the other yet prioritising and and and perhaps identifying as I think you are now going to do yet.

It is going to make some difference of the single-serve of third parties of the community.

We can be there because of Trillium Shades of Grey in the scenario, so we have to create the right system that reacts to these sorts of scenarios, but we have to appreciate that we are all of us together and we work with all of you.

You know training up24 mass distribution of information technology instantaneous a retorted it if there is something you feel it is done through it which is enough of the case you think there's any Golden Age of truth.

No interest in puppies popping people's filter bubbles at all and I'm seeing that change it.

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It's me Jamie Laing from Made In Chelsea and you have stumbled across the Made in Chelsea podcast now I know I'm a pretty charming guy alright some people come up with a haych Amy how do you do it and I tell them be enthusiastic about meeting people and most importantly always be ready to smile to make sure you're so looking the best with Sensodyne it's I do need to find out whether is anybody hear from Google and if so are.

Ok, do you want to say anything abscess as as Google has been mentioned a few times.

I could see her for a very long time and talk about all the things that I disagree with that Carol has written about in the last few weeks in disagree with quite profoundly of some of the things that she said not least the Crooked I say, how are you? Sorry? My name is Tom Price so I buy fireworks Google I've also work for YouTube with one of the sponsors of the other Britain Edinburgh International television festival so we come to this event like I could talk for a very long time about where we disagree on your honest disagreement about some of the things that she's written about the way that has been interpreted and I would certainly disagree with the implication that we don't like talking about these issues or door trying to hide things or anything like that, but maybe it's more helpful to focus on where I think we do agree and I do agree when she says.

And this is a big issue in that we should we should talk about it and we should have a debate I think that's absolutely right and I do agree that we don't always get everything right when it comes to serving the correct answers.

I'm in some of the issues that she highlighted around the Holocaust something clearly that was was not a good search experience with the wrong answer that we were providing and that is something that we look to tackle out.

We actually have made some changes to try and tackle and we're thinking about it quite deeply sorry going forward, but we Patrick is spelt out a strategy for Facebook is it is there a strategy that Google is pursuing a range of different issues that you're talking about his nose is it? It is hard to talk about you know as who exactly what you mean by that but in terms of lager algorithm which I think is this other main issue, and how we make sure that the information that we're serving you is accurate and helpful of course is something that I mean that's the very Foundation of the company that we are it's something that we think about all the

If you come at it with an agenda is Carol does that says these are all big corporates who only care about making money out of us know trying to eat my lunch then? Yeah, we do question sometimes.

Where do we get a fair hearing with an agenda like that, but it is undoubtedly true that we think about the issues that we work too kind of trying to improve our algorithm on stuff like this all the time and I'm happy to talk about it in public forums.

Thank you very much other questions from the others.

We have a microphone.

It will be good if you could wait for it to come to you first to her.

I was just wondering I'm on the eating eating of the lunch question, what what what the panel did could you as a friend out from Radio x Exeter Google make investing in journalism pats in the form of bursaries or even a government fund or something like that.

I just wanted to know if possible question Patrick we actually have some some upcoming announcements with regard to.

Typical aberration within the networks the entire ecosystem it something already invested a lot of time in my team is responsible for relationships with in 1000 of news publishers across the ability of Team America we were cut them in three main areas what is building ideas that can be monetized hebephrenic can't a conversion subscription which by the way is going very well for 11 associations like a maritime safety and also we help with new revenue opportunities subscription being one of them but also new add formatting to be launching to drive revenue on video for example reacting mass explosion of consumption.

We've been a bit slow on laptop startup and a third parties technology collaborations with putting the hands of his organization's access the 360 cameras virtual reality opportunities that help us collaboratively develop new types of storytelling and lots of different solutions to it, but you also keep in mind that the news in publishing industry in some of the challenges financially free days even existence of Facebook it's not a decades-long challenge of

Adapting to changes in people's consumption habits and technology has music as seen a TV also was seeing so it's not some sort of Silver Bullet club development Focuses team collaboration with organisations like The Guardian to find new ways to address these challenges and Everton and public inquiry which came up with some recommendations to improve a regulation of the Press And what's Rihanna's a lot of controversy about it.

What has been proposed as is not popular.

There's a desert article section 40 which is been consulted upon and that offers quite a lot of costs and damages advantages and disadvantages to newspapers, but if you take a step back from 11 is wildly controversial huge issues about Canada free and fair press, but what policymakers are not doing as looking as you're saying is looking right across the piece you have to look at news as you find it and we channel.

Local journalism hugely trusted still in this country, but it is suffering hideously financially the the presses and struggling newspapers for all levels and did was look at newspapers and we all know that that's just a tiny part of the news ecosystem.

Very few people buy a newspaper anymore most people consume their news through Twitter or Facebook or Google whatever so I think that's an interesting idea, but when people are talking about pressure regulation.

It is mad to just look at the print Media broadcast of the covered by Ofcom but what you're proposing could be quite a good idea of something that never seen actually can have looked at in terms of could cause some of the bigger news organisations and help subsidize local journalism things right.

There is a bit of question here on the Far Side of the microphone, so I could you clearly my name is Frank radice timer for journalist in a current marketing consultant and better good.

The internet distribution platforms and news organizations or sources now Brian actually did a whole segment recently on what Trumps sources were and I think the idea of trying to Co-op these sources to work with journalist it supposed to us journalist fighting them isn't such a such a bad thing but my real question is an already go back to where we begin this conversation about the documents that were released last night should we have published those documents so I woke up this morning having made some notes for today and certainly did not expect my site to a published a series of allegations about the president elect which should have properties, I would say that they are unverified and yet.

This is a document which is being discussed a cross-media circular cross security circles if it is being brief to the present select then.

Spell to be able to see what he's been proved.

So that's certainly are corporate line.

I would argue that in the past documents of this type would be released journalist with look at them then they would call through them and determine what parts of those documents were a verifiable or were worthy of being reported upon are as opposed to simply as distributing them which is something that we can now do because of these distribution platform so that a good thing or a bad thing Brian I'm still figuring that out today the truth that you know my gut reaction to this this morning was that yes, but we decide to publish a document someone would have I'm not saying that's better.

I'm assuming that were in a world where this kind of raw materials always going to end up somewhere on the internet and I'm offering on that premise if it hadn't been BuzzFeed it would have been mother Jones

Or someone else to have these documents but is there any sense in which you have a strong suspicion that they are fake this is where does the Skegness conversation comes back to some of these documents or things that are cheap on there reasons why seeing another not the published information documents because it's none of the did not did not check out.

I'll leave that to the Carl Bernstein to work for doing everything in down.

The road here thinking about fake news means in 510 years the ability to lie and misleading missing form is only going to get more sophisticated.

They're talking about the Version 2.0 of a problem but the bass box of the world in the singing end of the road to think about the version 5.0 completely fake video that seems like it's real made up documents intended to trick people.

It is only going to get his ear eating.

Protect the public and that's why I say we have to be on a war footing and be just as aggressive about fighting back and responding to what is it going to be increasingly sophisticated miss information landscape, what is the minute propaganda from governments or whether it people trying to make money through through pageviews and in in video views new media needs to get its house in order, but I can you give us Neil Griffiths blink.

Where are media market research agency, but it seems to me that old Media needs to get its house in order Christine looking for me outside.

You know couple of years ago.

When Jon Stewart was hosting The Daily Show for some people America was the most trusted news source in America and he would say but we're doing a fake news show so that said that's an issue and I would say to certain degree that the news real news is turning into entertainment shows.

I'm so if you got a fake news anchor been the most trusted journalist when I trust a person on American television and Orthodox news channels actually becoming and I think you're not I think Channel 4 news is slightly guilty of this to I've been often more and entertainment shows in the new show where do we go? How and how how does Orthodox news orientate itself so we know who was supposed to be listening to pack a call on my editor Ben de pear to to address that thanks.

Thanks those comments that I find them entertaining because I've just been through the period of a really intense year of news.

We just been through a three-month period where we had the only a genus News team in Aleppo we live on Aleppo for probably 20 out of 30 days before Christmas I didn't find anything to be different Aleppo entertaining.

You did I go and see someone sorry just carry on that's fine.

You started.

We we we we we we we we we we we do kick around the topics of the day we become much more interested in identity politics the voices in in the world become louder because the world is becoming angry and place you can tell that from my reaction to you, but I don't think Channel 4 news as a verified we have amazing processes of Channel 4 News to make sure we don't tell them truth about I can't say we will never I can't say that everything is completely true, but the process we go through in order to put journeys into where is unbelievably long is unbelievably complicated and it costs a lot of money.

Penny from your question to to yours just asked you a question, how much money do you think Facebook made from fake news and how much money do you think you're spending combating it because that for every pound at least that media organisation is make from Facebook you make at least the same amount.

If not more there's no transparency, so we don't know and the money that these people have made for making up news this effective political events and that has cheap and the value of news overall.

I want to how much VAT is and how much it's made for Facebook and how much you are spending yourselves on combating that.

Well, it mean if it is very hard to answer that with any specifics.

I think we're doing a lot to go directly at the source of any people that are financially benefitting from distribution of misinformation hoaxes there a lot of people that are that are buying ads on Facebook Rosa two different purposes and they're also mainstream music stations are broadcasting interview speeches in in conversations with people that may or may not be true for me to so many shades of grey like I said I think the important thing is that we find a way to address any areas of misinformation.

We find ways to increase revenue directly to partners such as yourselves where we do work collaboratively on global distribution of content for recruitment purposes such a tough question but I do think it is an important question is what was originally asked which is in are we originally moving towards a space where were being a bit more sensational as as an industry and I said that was a promise ring.

This is what I meant.

Is it socially Outfitters reflecting a shift in.

Intermediate Aaron's got a figure out better Media literacy for 4 countries for publix for populations and media literacy the boring phrase, but it was desperate for it right now and we need better understanding of why why the news does look so Brighton telephone sexy and entertaining and yet his factual and we need to explain the word viewers how we figure out the truth and how much money we spend on it and it said hi past time from more of those efforts.

I think I'm glad accommodations in Newsround about media literacy a nightly show at Katie Hopkins is just getting masses of a time sometimes we all watch question time it is still in the a huge source of kind of

News for people who want to just tuners get politics and that kind of clickbait it's like an individual clickbait now, so I think you do raise a good point about organisations can have thinking about that as well.

Just been mindful, but not like just looking for the sensational and everything and Jane martinson from the Guardian and it seems to me that the story that break overnight and is really important and we should talk him the one thing that it occurs me in all this discussion is that economics is that the basis of this and the reason why this flight back, but you keep mentioning Brian is going to be so difficult because really what we have here is a trusted news organization that says zombified, but somebody's going to publish it and we know that it makes sense to put it out there now that line.

That is blurring between that that will be really interesting and blurring the line.

Isn't it between this sort of we are trusted news organization.

We check everything as far as we can.

That's been incredibly difficult to hold that line in the age of social media and Facebook and Google have taken 85% of every dollar spent on advertising the model the economic model of journalism is incredibly difficult they keep going with the sense that we will spend time and money to actually make sure it's right because now you will make money not by being last not by being Newsnight at 10:30 and having an intelligent debate about it, but making sure you have someone putting something online that says half look at this the trim do a hashtag is obviously about Watergate today and it may turn out to be a great story, but that's me isn't that the biggest question how do we stop the economics of the business meaning that fake news is too tempting for all of us.

Patrick analysis you know well less than 1% of an hour analysis of information that was shared in the run-up to collection was Samuel we would consider this information helps us now that's 2 bigger number.

It's way to Bigger number.

That's why we are investing a lot of time and energy in Adrian in tackling this directly you know we are all mostly in the commercial organisations, but doesn't mean we don't have principles.

We don't have missions of return to fulfill little bit of a higher nature.

We definitely have that about connecting people and in the other thing I think of what to be aware of when people access the information on Facebook accessing Tower falling Facebook accessing the BBC on Facebook accessing Al Jazeera on Facebook accessing news, would you make news organisations that you're great journalism through this platform as they are accessing pictures of a friends and family so we are interlinked in finding Solutions through technology but also through education and India will be making some announces soon.

I'm trying to get deeper into solving this collaborative late, but it is.

What is simple one tweets or a solution of how much money I think old steam names being bandied around at the moment in association with the story he said follow the money you have an answer that question and this question of the the and also James follow about the fact.

It is that you said it was nonsense that you're just big corporates making money, but you are big corporates making money.

It is at the heart of everything and I think that's the one.

I'm just very hard to quantify something that also is it is an area that certain Shades of Grey now.

We are going after the worst of the worst in terms of sources that are inaccurate and we doing a lot of work.

There is an imperfect process.

We also have systems were we do put your hands up and we do make mistakes again.

Look at publishing if something that's in this information is shared through newspaper even a website of a news organisation gets retracted and maybe Days Later buried on page 36 in social media world.

These things can be addressed immediately publicly people have much more boys than ever had and I just means the Landscape the shifting me after dark quickly by Brian said Donald Trump said Google this is true right.

You said Google was rigged against him to try to steal the election from him.

I'm trying really hard now and January to remember what I said there in the campaign because there was so much that was untrue that we need to keep coming back to the remember even a news outlet do their best of social networks figure out how to combat this stuff if we have politicians misleading people not in the way.

We've always been 400 years but in these new ways these new kinds of why I don't know but honest person.

We are at the end of Session there a lot of hands up and I think it'd be the most democratic way to end of a couple of points from people from the audience the word two people over here yet on the Far Side there to get the microphone.

And I'm from princess Productions and we make entertainment shows and we're doing some work at the moment for the BBC with the Daily Mash and I just wonder what the flip side to the question of Gentlemen over here last is is there a worry with a with new rules a Crackdown on fake news that there are implications or consequences along the line for satire and at what point do we end up having to hashtag joke like we have to #ad and it's a slightly flipside a question, but I thought it might be worth addressing the nation.

I think actually what has been so missing from our political discourse is really good biting satire actually I'm in account which you say bring back spitting image if you could just bring back all those kind of people that made those original pulling characters and I think that I'm very glad to hear you're doing some stuff at the same as I think it's so necessary now to try think.

I can help us try and make sense of some of the Madness that we're in at the moment.

Thank you very much into this Jim Waterson at Aisha Carole cadwalladr, and Patrick Walker thank you very very much indeed for joining send.

Thank you very well.

Thanks for listening to this bonus edition of the media podcast and also to the Edinburgh International TV festival and their partners ITN for donating that discussion to ask you to can support the show head to the media podcast opcom / donate to keep us going until next time.

I've been on your man producer Matt Hill and this has been a PPM production until we return triumphantly with your money, but I

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