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Read this: #61 - How The New European was launched, BBC Studio cuts - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

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#61 - How The New European was launched,…

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He is the show hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only man on today show Matt Kelly talks to us about the launch of the new European the UK's latest national newspaper the BBC announcers.

Heavy job cuts at their in-house production arm ahead of privatisation, but he's not necessarily bad news for the industry + ITV showcase their

New drama Sunday poly Hill why are global boycotting next week's Radio Academy Awards and yes, there's the media podcast quiz in which this week we done a headset and visit and virtual Fleet Street little the cab on today's Media podcast and join me at the hospital club today are two scousers.

Can you believe it? They just been discussing where they both went to school University professor Liz how are how many watts keep you busy these days.

I'm still doing my research into expert women or the lack of them on television and radio news and current affairs.

That's really interesting and I just have them.

Tell me there's an upward trend.

Don't just say it's interesting what 4 years of you.

Talk about this now.

Are there a few more women?

Sing in that very tiny Wells novels about to leave the former local digital who jumps to Argent and then became editor of the new European yes, we spoke about the publication now.

We get to meet the man at its Matt Kelly welcome back to the gym at 5, so we could have fast changing world of digital.

That's what we were talking to you about last time you run the show that a long time ago about 12 months ago and it's a bit awkward angels have been cast asunder now have launched a newspaper agency new European for new listeners is a weekly newspaper for the 48% that reduced by Argent who has no one of the bigger regional newspaper magazine companies based at in Norwich so I can a little Norwich is little island of remain in a sea of leave brexiteers and there anyway we decided we.

Call junior newspaper in double quick time based on the fact that they didn't seem to be anything else in the mainstream that really represented that sense of kind of dismay than the the referendum.

I think brought home to to a lot of us, so got out in 9 days after the referendum which is I believe a world record for a newspaper launch and it's been a great success with capacity of the idea should I brush as I say I had the idea.

Can you just you put your hand over sixties me coming onto newspaper lilies and will 9 Days how did you get the money to go out watching a great company in that regard? Because it's big enough to do stuff like this, but it's small enough to do stuff like this is well, and I think the idea would have drowned in in bigger organisations and smaller ones wouldn't have had the resource but we've got the Resource and we've got the counter in process and the will to have a go at stuff.

We called it pop up publishing cos we thought you know maybe it'll just last for a few weeks and will will pull the plug but we're now until week 15 and sales.

Good, it's making money.

It's making a lot of noise for the company which is great so we are very happy with it and please do you think this is the future pop-up newspapers or offers lots of people reading getting one of my fellow academics James Rogers rope for a thing you just number 14 is good fun as well, and it's got things like brexit or no brexit stylish shoes.

I think a really great and one of my colleagues.

Have you know I'm sick of being a broom moana and this papers for me and my brother works for a paper called the National in Scotland very very different her ideas, but it's a my dear.

You know popped up in response to the way people feel and I think that's the way newspapers started when you work out in the round coffee houses in London in the seventeenth eighteenth century, and it's still there and media don't disappear One media comes on top of another You Know Radio did not kids kill the video video did not kill the Radio Star sorry mate wrong way, but if you're looking for people to try and get into a it seems odd to say pro-remain argument now when?

This may delay, but if you're trying to get people to click on a program an argument now online the difficulty I guess that must be for your voice to be heard over Owen Jones whoever did we've got a great social media presence and we engage with that we got lot of people who are very supportive and passionate about what we trying to do the reality is in this is where I think it's interesting from an industry point of view if the new European have been a website.

We wouldn't be talking about it now.

You know there would have been no revenue no interest no kudos for writing for it so trains still has a lot of magical qualities about it that digital cannot replicate now.

I'm not saying that you no trains going to kill digital too early to say that then you know it's possible but I better joke folks, but the digital is going to completely reduce all the all the great elements of Prince I think is entirely wrong and there's a place for both platforms.

Just really enhances platforms that went before and there is something about print about reading it's about being a flick through it.

It's grazed not to piss on anyone's tips though, but isn't it the case that you're able to make profit out the new European because the price of advertising is much higher with pretty bad.

She if you did a website that was as successful in webcams.

It isn't the case of online advertising should be more eggs undervalue.

Yes, you have to be right.

I'll be advertising isn't really the model in the new European the motorways the 2 quid that people pay for it and again another great traits of Princes you can carry it around you can demonstrate that that's what you really love your Portofino symptoms of anger that we can all remember when the Independent launched and it had that great, the Independent it is or you and people carried it like a badger van at that's what you wanted to do with the new European about printed is a tribe that you belong to and that's why it's so different from broadcasting were the communications act means that you know public service broadcasters have to be even handed prince completely different.

It's what you vote.

It's what you think it's what you are.

And it doesn't have to be anything other than cheerfully bias.

Ok? This is going to phone conversation, but believe it or not this isn't the median use this is just the introductory let's get to know each other a bit let's move on to some stories because the first up we going to talk about shock horror surprise surprise what I change the BBC at who this week.

It's been announced our to cut 300 jobs from its new production on BBC Studios before they enter the commercial market next year as about 15% of the current workforce.

It's quite chunky 15% been able to see this coming because Tony Hall made the announcement about the program making ormus it we're going off separately way back in I think 2013 actually in a speech at City University work where I work so this is been on the cards and I think some of the press coverage is a bit disingenuous these shows are just going to be up for grabs to be made by independence is a bit of a Bake-Off rerun sort of scenario.

You know Bake Off was not made by the BBC was made by love Productions for the BBC it was still.

Enormously popular had that BBC whatever it is sparkle special thing about it and that's what's going to be replicated with these other shows it's really an organisational change and the staff may lose their jobs working for BBC Studios or whatever but that doesn't mean they lose their jobs in this is one of the great problems with the in communicating about Media in Britain people tend to think if it's not the BBC it won't happen, but it's not the BBC frequently having somewhere else loving you as though there are BBC Life is on there.

That's a good thing under bad things work to be thinking it's a horrible thing when you've got a job which you think is safe and it goes couldn't understand my voice do you mean for the creative output? I mean it's a bad thing because I could be there are some people that have creatively stagnated, but just get employed from project project and I'm very good at their jobs.

That's the case in a large organisation, but it's a good thing isn't it that there are people have committed their life to Public Service Broadcasting we could be losing their.

The mend a lot more money elsewhere, I don't think that's necessarily the case.

I think some people are very lucky to have committed her life to Public Service Broadcasting as a guaranteed salary and we're not losing everybody.

It's not everybody that's going it's just a proportion to Let's Get it into proportion agree very much with the sentiment that people are lucky to work for the BBC rather than it some great sacrifice.

You know it's it's a very unusual organisation and that's probably the only organisation that really been able to resist the disruption that every other single media has encountered up until now.

You know when it's it is sad I guess if you're passing of a comfortable business that continues on her on her untrammeled on a path nicely funded and without any huge metrics to measure yourself against really so you're very well protected in that regard know that's what been disrupted noun actually the metric.

I'm interested in.

Is why I is a licence payers should have to pay for the BBC to compete with commercial channels who are interested in producing some of these programs.

Why does the price get ramp.

Why didn't the BBC let that stuff go let Match of the Day go let Bake-Off go and concentrate on a much more public service agenda for the death by A Thousand Cuts will what the argument is this because you pay the licence be the BBC's got to be popular because way back in 1957 viewing figures for the BBC Fell to below 25% and what then happened was that people quite rightly said why should I pay the licence fee at all because I don't watch it.

Nobody watches it only you know a quarter of the population watch it.

Why am I paying for it? So you've got to have a fairly substantial amount of popular programming on the BBC to justify the licence fee the question is the balance bro.

Sorry what I meant I get the point you're saying in regards to what I was saying that wasn't saying that people have done anything heroic by committing them.

BBC what I meant was if you've got 30 years of Public Service Broadcasting program making in your background.

You haven't had to worry for 30 years all the reason just said about getting ratings this early.

You've just been thinking.

How do we make the best program possible? That's just not true.

It is true.


They do worry about rating some too sure but they're a lot of Producers at the BBC Who their job is they get given some money is very comfortable and they're just told make the best program.

You can that doesn't happen in Commercial sex you have to think about Rosie have to think about your next job that we are losing their Service Broadcasting in ITV and sour although its commercial door protectors children's broadcasting religious beliefs different all Public Service Broadcasting has got that sort of self-contained area and what you tend to find is the dolphin on Public Service Broadcasting like sky actually replicates this Sky News has absolutely no reason to exist.

Accept the fact that it's protected and paid for by the organisation and does a wonderful job by the way, how much better job in my opinion than the BBC 24-hour news surely the fair because I was the manager is there is a god if they can even more respect than that there is a commercial reason isn't the point is that you can say what you just said, it's like with a great people subscribe to Sky because they think it's blue chip because it's going it's actually the same thing.

It's a Desire for whatever reason to do things that are not for direct commercial benefit if some of those do you go out for commercial tenders some of which shows would you like to see actually get a refresh from the open market even if BBC Studios Industrial Estate

What am I even got left is the cake in the market is on ITV because over there the BBC's former head of drama at has announced her first drama slate for what they used to call Channel 3.

Hollyhill has this week's showcased shows by established writers including trauma by Mike Bartlett at your throat doctor Foster for the babe.

I am the people behind Channel 4 Indian summers there are husband and wife team scripting a family thriller called next of kin a map that but they're putting their weight behind these shows ITV 628 parts lot of them so quite a big budget gamin.

They sound like the right kind of things all the same an otter a risk taking what I think is interesting as the emphasis on the writing skills that they bring it to ITV and this is this is a new thing and this is definitely following trends from America work all of the power is vested in the right as you know all those executive producers you see if the end.

Sopranos on the hill and ordered his great shows their the writers now.

That's not been the case in the UK before all of the powers been in the commissioning management team and I think that doesn't necessarily lend itself to absolute quality, so I would bet that these guys will produced some terrific chosen.

It's not unprecedented teams are on a scale steam.

You've got Jimmy McGovern has done fantastic.

Where does Alan Bleasdale willy Russell University vital is there is a history of write a lead stuff and will lead to some high quality output and Short People record their glory days of drama ITV dramas.

You have to go back to Cali Dennis Potter in that sort of thing and that is you know it is the writer Leinster really interested in what I was saying you mentioned mainly blokes but Kay Mellor has been writing for ITV4 about I would say 30 years and is an incredibly good established right.

I'm really glad to see her in this life is Debra Morgan as well.

It was actually wrote tulip fever that was her most favourite famous novel.

She did The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel

Whatever it wasn't so she's really famous and been there a long time what I like about what came Alistair says that she's going to write something which will show more older women on-screen.

I mean I would like that would know but it's all about would like to listen.

What is excess of happy Valley I think one of the person most likely to be watching TV particularly.

ITV is a woman over 50 in the north of England the person least likely to be on television is a women not women over 50 in the north of England and even Loose Women shows that things are changing and I think it's great that came out of there and the showrunners the the writers of their to I think it looks really good and let's not forget my TVs have some great successes anyway, isn't it mean Victoria and Abdul and Victoria who was a really interesting and National Treasure on Channel 4 those two have been myself star dramas of this autumn and again National Treasure written by Jackson wasn't it is very much like if you were going to pick A Tale of young writer whose the next Jimmy McGovern is probably.

Someone like that.

I don't think I don't think 10 years ago.

We could have tripped off a dozen great writing Talents like this and that those names would have any recognition out in the real world, but they do today so I just think that's indicative of a real shift towards where the power should be the guys who are creating the the actual words.

The only single creative process is the writer everything else is an adaptation of that person's work and I think it's great that the power is now festival very much that were already written or adaptations of books.

Where is this is absolutely fresh stuff with with TV as the medium.

I think it's brilliant.


I guess what's may be changed in the last 10 years then since you know what time you're saying that when we wouldn't be able to name writers.

It might be box sets chasing clears totally did people catching up on drums.

They can sell this around the world totally and you know that's got an impact and what we were just talking about about the source of the fixed points of of

Schedule in that actually becoming less and less relevant because people to simply have got the time to watch them because they're watching all this great stuff on HBO or on Sky Atlantic or wherever you might find it they say that's why they scandi Noir Caitlin didn't know because all the other stuff over the prices were racking up to the BBC any other broadcasters were looking for somewhere new guess what it was in Scandinavia ok well.

We might be embracing the digital culture world here, but we still got a basically linear format when we've got a commercial break in a second but when we come back his duties at we will be talking about some more radio stories waving goodbye to the fake Sheikh and we will be doing our Media quiz the media podcast is brought to you by Media Masters let's see who's on their show this week with Paul Blanchard let's spin that wheel why it's none other than rod shop the presenter of BBC Radio 5 Live's overnight show up all night at let's hear a clip of him talking about.

His first job at BBC News within months even within the first month we were meeting some of the biggest names in the game.

I mean Robin day sat down that I should say Sir Robin of course.

He told us all about how important it was to ask prosecutorial questions and and that was the that the mould that so many BBC presenters came up in and if you look at Jeremy Paxman well, he was in use training about two or three courses before us and he too had the sit down with Robin day and was told to ask prosecutorial questions I at some point departed from the old prosecutorial Kool-Aid in the night.

I don't do that as a general rule only do that if I get really annoyed Rhod sharp there when I used to present an overnight show on LBC I was very jealous of rod because he broadcast from the east coast of America and therefore doesn't have to go to bed at 6 a.m.

You can hear all the media Masters interviews and they're well worth a listen and they're all three at Media Masters

Does FM write more media news now and let's start with radio at as mentioned briefly on our last podcast James Purnell is to be the new head of radio at the BBC at penally said to have been awarded the post as a thank you for his work negotiating with corporations licence fee settlement with the government Liz let's just deal with the Insider gossip bit of this.

Could he be the next D&G is that what this is really certainly tipped for it? Isn't is one of the small group of people going in that direction and the difficulty is that is not a broadcaster and I think that's something which would be held against him really never made a news package.

It wouldn't have it.

Doesn't you do think I'm on this is a preferred and radio biggest radio stations in the world.

But I think it order to get him into the DG Riley has to somehow take on the mantle of being a programmer to this would a phone appointment is is the way of doing it and whipping is a Tony halbert.

He has said there's going to be a new position.

That is called Heather radio rather than head of radio and education or whatever they can James meynell which will be directly underneath in which I think basically is the job of head of radio you go to the Willows what are doing and it is very weird as well, but it's a weird organisation and it's going to be very weird time because the government's at the BBC is is really really fluid at the moment because there's going to be a unitary board which is regulated by Ofcom was gonna have to be a raft of new people that off, and it's very late in the day.

I mean it's October and unless I'm very much mistaken this starts in January and we really don't seem to know where it's going.

I'm not quite sure the dcms is on this.

I've got I've got a new minister Karen Bradley Wise Men seems extremely accessible pleasant and capable, but it's late in the day.

I think so be very interesting to see where this one goes.

He James Purnell is a former labour minister.

That's not without its problems with the BBC sure I mean I think it's a bit unfair on changed for now all of these sorts of text on.

This is that he's not smart enough to have a creative idea about radio is not is not got the integrity to keep his politics out of the programming and and it's all a pale for doing a great job organising the the new licence a little bit know the guy.

I don't think any of those things and necessarily true is clearly very intelligent and mover and shaker maybe it's a good thing for radio to get a little bit of a fresh look and is extremely competent really actually a very nice bloke.

I just think it's hard.

I mean nobody saying that there's something that is not good enough and therefore is a pretend radio person in that sense.

It's just unusual for someone to get to that level in a very creatively based.

Media organisation without ever having made the product I don't understand why people would probably be that you have the opportunity to prove himself, but they are saying why isn't someone running as he knows anything about radiators got here.

We listen to radio can't run special give you a chance.

No seriously it is it is hard and I think the BBC have got to accept that people are going to ask questions about it raise their eyebrows about it and I think anyway it's a shame for James Barnardo's an extremely competent Media strategies.

Why I have to be given this false title in the sense Folsom in the sense of not what he actually does or has done I think it's it's not him that im costing so much as as the people who gave him the title.

It doesn't mean presumably he wanted the job.

I mean it didn't have to take it so it's a job he he has asked for that.

I please gone through it.

Maybe the reason that you are more convinced about this is.

You see this more as a political appointment then I kind of hands on making radio disabilities kind of weird no no no I don't all issues with and the reason we talking about it the way you frame the conversation was that it was some sort of stitch up or some kind of payoff and and and you know the idea that a guy who hasn't got a background in radio can't successfully run a radio business.

I don't think it's true.

You can look it all sort of people you know Carolyn McCall had no idea about Airlines until she left the Guardian to run easyJet.

I just done a fantastic job running easyJet.

You know there is skill sets about running a business skillset around managing people and skill-set her about been created that are not platform centric Emily and to be fair.

Look at us whoever said I could be an academic the case.

Black their way into meaningful jobs near talking about money sorted now because james' Purnell's doing with.

Robin is going to be a junior as well.

Do you think the two of them can buy that can be paid more or less than Helen Bowden who was the outgoing na radio think it's probably more maybe we should ask about like the Talents ok? Yeah, but it will bet that was another child.

Who was it that you can go see a to your suggesting that he has what stitched up the charter for his own personal gain in-depth about the hospital if you should be in the tabloid paper.


I spent 18 years on the Daily Mirror newspaper taking that humblebrag by the home.

Let's move on to talk about awards in fact because on Wednesday the Radio Academy bringing back there and you'll Awards after a two-year break.

They have been a big changes that they no longer called the Sony's there because a sponsor drops out a couple of years ago.

They are now called the audio and radio industry Awards or Arias all they never seem to have noticed that there is a

Massive Australian awards ceremony also called Aria so it's not very good to Google they also move the ceremony to Leeds they've reduced the number of categories to a more manageable 16, so we don't have to sit through everyone speeches, but perhaps the biggest dory is global the biggest commercial radio operator in the UK isn't part of it.

They haven't submitted themselves for any of the Awards Liz's not a problem for an awards ceremony that supposed to be the standard bearer for the industry difficult isn't it somebody had said that clever was behaving like a silky kid and not taking part which is perhaps one way of looking at it global also started something called the global Academy which is a genuine real estate school which promotes the radio industry such as exciting and quite risky at the same time.

It is as if they're going to try and create their own fiefdom that isn't part of anything else on that level I do think it's a shame that there is something else going on in the Aether I think we just sit there are so many awards so many people giving out award so many people being asked to judge Awards maybe you.

It's quite brave to say well.

We don't want to be part of it.

There's too much of this about I don't know if Amy the Jurys out.

I don't know global well enough to know what the really Fawcett is there and I can see it from both sides really but there is no one industry standard bearer that's the problem is it's the closest thing we had to it.

I think it probably must be making the programs.

They think people who work on the kind of shows that LBC on Classic FM northern specialist music shows on Capital that might get nominated.

That's a real boost your eGo.

I think that's where it will hurt and it'll might come to her global as if you do have journalist and broadcaster squirrel egomaniacs you know if you think that you can't get an award.

You're not in a frame for an award that might have a damaging effect on morale people might drift off to the places.

I remember when I was at the Daily Mirror when Piers Morgan was editor and one year we didn't win anything at the at the press.

Towards amperes decided we were going to boycott it the next year you'll know it was a real cancel and we held our own awards and of course Daily Mirror clean the room and and and we announce the next days paper that the mirror had won the Daily Mirror newspaper of the Year award.

You don't order this.

It was all a little bit pathetic and did feel a little bit silky and cause we fell back into line the year after one slight details of that was that the press awards did recognise the more tabloid press approaches as worthy of Awards as well because of that so maybe globals just trying to send a little bit of a message here that you know commercial radio doesn't really get a look and I noticed some of the categories only have BBC injuries unit ridiculous LBC in our global entity does fantastic broadcasting you know that we go I think up against much is the BBC so if you're not going to end if you're not going to answer then you can't be in the frame, but perhaps they do feel that it's bias towards.

Continue that the big beats do dominating for many years when I started at Sky News years ago.

There was this feeling you'd never going to win an award us can use cos you're on the outside and there was some it really difficult Awards ceremonies, so I went to where you felt will hang on a minute sky really ought to be up there now that seems ridiculous sky so established and so good, but it is hard to break in and annoyed at the same time.

It's fragment in Kissimmee all Awards are around it so I think the whole award business needs preps to be reviewed.

Maybe we need a government organisation book unit of Orbit live boxing isn't it? You know that used to be warm Heavyweight Champion of the World now.

There's six.

You know not the same is the case.

How many had a look at the nominations met anyone used it for a win.


I was listening to melvyn.

Bragg talk about Radio 4 in the House of Lords the other day and I have to say he said something at the end of a list of the programming of Radio 4 and said at the end of that you know it's a brilliant that we take it for granted and he's absolutely right.

It's a stunning channel.

I saw the Today programme therefore.

The news and I think that would be a shoo-in for me and it's got lots more women on there loads of women with you mention the Year podcast of the Year category I noticed but we are you a birthday present as a nominee that im partial to in there, but I will let you know how that goes one more radio story to cover now.

You may have seen a radio presenter John Holmes on the front page of the Mail on Sunday last week later.

It's what happened, then.

He lost his job on the program.

I am now and he said it was because he was a white middle-class man or a white man and for certain age and that's what he said that was what you've been told that there hasn't been very clear evidence of what was actually said he tweeted about it and he's got a sense of had a feeling up about it.

The broadcasters vehemently denied that it is just to do in freshening up the program.

So it's one of these things that's really rather a difficult one to find out who said what to whom really is it the programmers write to refresh the program on the basis of gender?

Anyway, I mean I don't see what's wrong with that really and I speak as a white male.

If someone says to me look we need some whatever it is in this case at women or ethnic faces.

I've been ok if you do it during a rally in Countryfile anyone talking court.

I think you know you gotta obey the law of the land and at the same time you might want to move things in a certain Direction it's a question of tact and how you do it and why you do it in the end.

You do have a duty of particular thing as a public service broadcaster to reflect the population for example 14% of the UK is ethnic minority recognisable ethnic minority and that obviously should be reflected both onscreen and offscreen and in order to do that you may have to change line-ups here and there but I actually think that an individual and take you know your face doesn't fit that's just not good management after 18 years on the showers response to BBC diversity.

Are presenters are chosen on merit and was a clear undertone that he wasn't good enough.

That's where he had fallen short which is a shame.

You know I think he's done a great job been an awful long time.

He did actually provoke that responded not your right leg absolutely right in the when you look at these things on a one-to-one basis the Cruel and hard to take but there's no doubt that if we are brilliantly moving towards A recognition of the diversity that unrecognised in our media and the consequences of that lack of diversity, then you gonna have to have balance and I'm afraid then middle-aged white men like me like you sorry about putting your middle ages.

Just just on the chemist, but the you know we are proportionately gonna lose out in the great scheme of things fantastic.

If I could just repeat something which BBC editor said to me about 4 years ago when we were talking about diversity and absolutely true.

He said im.

I really do want to have more black people in my Newsroom but I really really.

Do you want the sort of black person who's been to Oxford and and it's very very difficult because often if you're looking at people's background and they're not going to reach those sort of gold in the first place and it does make it terribly difficult.

It is not just a question for diversity in terms of straightforward colour say it's a cultural thing on Radio 4.

Let's be honest most of the quote effort voices that you here are people live in Oxford open this conversation is that people think it's like some sort of quota thing and his political correctness and all of this it has real consequences out in the real world cos people don't feel represented stuff goes through that people don't see if shockingly awful.

I remember my first week at the Daily Mirror and someone laying out the very white Newsroom at that time.

I'm actually pays to his credit huge amount to increase diversity and unusual someone laid out of a headline on a story about a black guy who had this counter.

The pigmentation condition that Michael Jackson had the headline he proposed to run and it was I used to be black but I'm alright now and we looked at it and do a people than using that you can't do that, but this was defended as a course.

It's just fun is just funny to counter argument 5 years before that that headline.

I think would have got through and it has a real effect on people in society you reading that about yourself.

I think you're my god.

You know this is a country that just doesn't understand me.

I don't feel part of it gets you into trump and locker room banter.

It's one of the best-known non-white reported although until last week.

No one had seen his face and that is to move the fake Sheikh convicted last week of course and now his cover has been blind by the national press who have all released photos of this previously highly secretive generous even the sun is old employer released a photo of him now, but this goes a bit of a Fleet Street Legend another year is it in NZ now?

Yes, definitely not and you know mazhar Mahmood when when we were going up on the mirror in the late 90s, was you know the envy of of every tabloid newspaper because he had this incredible ability to really pull people into his confidence and to and then to stitch them marvelously, you know and have to say in those days.

You look back in my recollection.

Is that those people who stitching up all seem to deserve stitching up but of course pressure builds on your career personally in a note AGA to get broader and broader and a Newsroom that we know it was exceptionally demanding of of results can make you twist things takes your cuts and and unfortunately with the Mars Mahmoud with gone into a public environment word.

That's not tolerated anymore and he hasn't changed his behaviour societies changed.

That's the thing and he's got caught out now.

Regards losing anonymity.

I'm afraid when you get a criminal criminal conviction.

That's what happens when me and you to students that are coming out of course.

It's like the ones.

I'm running are being recruited more and more 4 undercover work or to go.

I'm in two organisations and pretend to be something they're not quite dangerous and difficult Sam Allardyce in a very recently.

I mean the idea of entrapment is 40 stronger word but of catching people out like this is still very strong and the same kind of staying away the foreign businessmen.

You know the exotic and they just don't think there is public interest is it interesting to the public or is it in the public's interests and there is a massive massive difference that not all tabloid journalists were really thought through in in the late night woman's on a drug Sting in Marley series is that really important in the great scheme of things on the other hand exposing the football manager as being a bit dodgy maybe that's Road Timperley army investigation of the mirror.

where we had a year ago working as a butler to the queen Irish rights in the public interest was Ryan Parry got that job by applying for me an advert in this in the classified ads and the security checks were right how to be a personal assistant of the Queen of England absolutely appalling they phoned up again a pub and said you know him and someone said yes and I slide and that was it and Ryan was Butler to the queen for 3 months and pulled out when George W Bush right for state visit to the public interest was absolutely manifest error to be a fantastic was looking at the Queen's English breakfast and tupperware George and older this busy, but a touch of what this just said what's really interesting is how that investigation was a hugely expensive of birth of the Daily Mirror cost 150g and all in right over the

Investigation they can't afford to do that anymore.

They haven't got the stuff to send them off message for 3 months and and and trying take a punt on a result so what's happening is investigative journalism is being privatised.

It's going out of the mainstream Media here and we seeing it all over the place where the center for public integrity in Washington Princes is coordinating the Panama papers reverted occasions WikiLeaks me seeing it being outsourced almost and responsibility which is interesting because you know it's it's a core part of a newspapers makeup is to investigate an exposed you have sorted it changes the beast of but it can't be monopolized by newspapers mean television investigations a really big.

It's just something that journalists really like to do whether they've got a towel on the head or not have to say it just to just leave Defence of New Tricks I know you won't offending is Facebook the level of investigations that come out of newspapers as opposed to any other medium is astonishingly disproportionate.

You know it is meat and drinks in newspapers and

They're the best asset in the world so long Mayer Continuum definition is the possibility of achieving more in the fast-paced world of digital advertising Oracle data cloud has built it's like I say on finding the signal through the noise on unlocking potential we bring together data and technology to help you better understand your audience where to best engage them and how to measure a tool to realise true potential Oracle data cloud went better outcomes begin visit Oracle data cloud.

Come to learn more well.

That is nearly it for this week's edition of the media podcast part weight hooray.

There's time for the media quiz this week.

It's entitled future-proof 3 newspaper groups of tried to predict.

Fleet Street future and this week.

They announce thrilling new projects that they hope will save them and more Cottingley there industry your job contestants is to tell me.

Which group announced these projects are for each project? What group was it best of three buzzing with your name as they lose your say the winners are Orion Joanna the losers Ed and Katya he is question number one which newspaper launched its own virtual reality team this week's Liz correct after showcasing a virtual experience of solitary confinement at Sundance this year guardian editor Catalina has given VR the thumbs up is that the future of newspapers? I didn't get it at all.


Sorry reality in which the Guardians making loads of money.

That's what they doing her partner headset on and revenues are flying in April sleep at night VR in Action I have to say it is transformative when using as I saw something in Aleppo where you were in the in the Rubble with the the white helmet rescue is digging people that he was it changed everything and when you see you get that experience you realise actually how this.

Everything else is even Frontline deporting have distant.

You are when you're on your arm chair, but you glue it onto the front of your face and yeah, it changes his like an empathy machine extraordinary.

Is there a taste of decency around it though because you know to get that sorted in a matter you have to mount a GoPro to a tripod.

You know it's a bit more intrusive than a traditional war will I mean? I don't know to be honest.

I'm in the case.

You've seen it.

It's not much bigger than a Rubik's Cube with this or that all those GoPro mounted round as you say in a cube.

I think anything that can bring a story closer to people and make them realise what you absolutely think it's part of what we do what I do think.

It's old is a newspaper group doing it, but maybe I'm wrong there.


I think that you know the Guardians great for innovation and for trying new forms of experimentation.

We used to joke at the mirror that the Guardian was like are they are indeed with the word for the Guardian the BBC spend all the money find out what works and then other people pick it up? The two which newspaper?

Believe the future of news is 12 reporters and for editors covering 11 local newspapers and 8 news websites with your name now use quest Matt said that grudgingly you need the answer.

You just didn't want a buzzing enthusiastic mean.

I'm speaking to somebody who knows how to have the market is what I will say is that local news is incredibly important and I don't believe that getting more distant from the community as the answer.

It's such a challenging market though that I think you'd have to look inside the books of newsquest before you could comment faire Leone what's going on there, but is it reasonable to run 11 local newspapers who have reported as whenever but it's going on by the sea that is that she preferable slow down well.

It's preferable to closing them down.

I hope is the energy so basically know but then what have they would say that wouldn't well.

I don't know it's it's just so tough.

It's so tough and I don't envy anybody use in that situation and my job is Chief content officer of orchard which has.

For the challenges in the in the country, it's stuff and I wouldn't like to put myself on the hook for the Saying one way or the other to be honest a lots of wonderful valuable fabulous things that we want but if people aren't prepared to pay for them.

We can't have some ok and question number three I call it the tie-break accepted as you clearly one because they're only three questions nonetheless all to play for in here.

It is which paper is going global without the internet when you know the answers.

Yes, I still have your name for it international edition, so it's no longer the international New York Times it's the New York Times international you've got to remember that not long ago.

It was that wonderful title the best title in newspapers the international Herald tribune.

Oh yeah and you think about Siri and you think about the I've booked a souffle with the girl walking through with the international Herald tribune t-shirt on in the whole heritage you that.

And I used to go and sit my cafe in pretend.

I was Ernest Hemingway in read the Herald tribune.

It was a great shame when that when said but this is their strategy to have one brand one entity that they can commercialize around the world and New York time, does it that you were Ernest Hemingway I'm going to bed.

I was very glad the new European invested.

Massively right up in the business section first big moment for any is there a new European international edition coming along so we sell in Switzerland Luxembourg France Germany and Belgium not Liverpool FC celebrate Republic of Liverpool we however are available wherever in the world there's an internet connection, so we still win at that is also today.

Thank you very much.

His house.

Thank you.

Make Kelly great to see you again and you can subscribe to us for free on your podcast app of choice.

We're on iTunes ACast Pocket Casts stitcher Google Play wherever you find your cards and as your

Up-to-date with us why not get inspired by listening to the latest episode of Media Masters run shut up the guest this week Lisa is Matt Hill the media podcast is a PPM production until next time bye bye.

Potential by definition is the possibility of achieving more in the fast-paced world of digital advertising Oracle data cloud has built it's like a seat on finding the signal through the noise on unlocking potential we bring together data and technology to help you better understand your audience where to best engage them and how to measure a tool to realise true potential Oracle data cloud where better outcomes begin visit Oracle data cloud.

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