Read this: #38 - Sun’s paywall crumbles, RAJARs Vice on UK TV - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm poorly man on today's show the sun lifts.

It's a wall, but in the new world ad blockers, what hope is there but had funded journalism the latest Rangers are out.

We take a look around the country at the state of UK radio on my radio one should focus on being a radio station first plus more on the Threat To Freedom of Information requests vice plans are free to air channel in the UK and of course our world-famous Media quiz that's all coming up on today's fully funded for now to keep the donations coming in thank you very much Media podcast and joining us today in the fine surroundings of the hospital club.

It is the MD of content company something else Mr Steve Ackerman hello Steve good afternoon.

I've been working on something suitably ghoulish for this Halloween weekend that are used to make the Radio 4 drama.

Is that what you're talking about? I was talking about you going round trick-or-treating on everybody commissioners.

Talk about your yes.

Turn off James's Park a that's that's very kind.

It's a binaural drama Radio 4 could the Stone Tapes by Peter Strickland you can go Peter Strickland famous film director, so if you listen to it with your headphones on it will freak you out that sounds like a promise worth exploring ok and making her return to the show it is the journalist known as The Fleet Street fox Ms Susie Boniface Chambers what do you prefer you prefer me? I should have asked famous or anything else so is mine things to ask a question.

That's fantastic around within the first 1 minute of the podcast.

I think I think notorious Leon married sounds like a Good slogan for any tableau column that my business card.

Haricot beans rice in the top but I think the electoral matters against him actually being able to take power because the way the last election work Smith labour really has to win over lots of English seats like Coventry and Plymouth and place like that.

I don't think he's got that kind of mass appeal has got a few years at it, but I've got it happening so I think it's about this isn't the place for serious electoral analysis I prefer it when you just did the ground because I think in adjustable interpreter now.

You've got a book out as well the reason you're here this Christmas all about it the bluffer's guide to social media and it there is just one of those small stocking filler that the bluffer's guide to wine and the bluffer's guide to sex this may sound like an expert in something that you might not actually be an expert in and if you think you are an expert you might learn some things that are quite useful so there's lots of things in there at how to OutRun a Twitter lynch mob the life cycle of.

Troll this kind of thing and M house to understand how these things right with the movers and shakers the winners and losers and social media how to use it, what is 4 places that are now the social media graveyard like be there in my space and all this kind of stuff and it's a little kind of potted history and a little useful how-to guide and it's perfect for Christmas do you tell people that if they out reply people at the front of the message? It only goes to that person and other people that follow both of them because everyone in the media needs to learn so irritating when they say at holy man coming up on my show later and then you like dealing with a troll is to correct their grammar and spelling and I send it back to them with big like marks on right onto the new since.

That's why we hear the sun are going to drop their paywall according to a report in the Guardian not to say that we told you that was coming but we did Rebekah Brooks has told staff Friday morning.

This was that the paywall is coming down on the news UK site at the end of November

Have you turned comes at difficult time for ad funded news sites online Apple recently updated iPhone user software to allow ad blocking software for the first time and last month and response basically German David bill protested against AdBlock Plus by producing a paper with all of the ads blacked out City am as well recently plot at block users from their side Susie Dusseldorf we move on to what business model the sun is going to find itself in now that is this the right move if you were Rebekah Brooks you can imagine yourself in that situation.

Would you have made? This is a firestick without hairstyle any of those clothes or indeed the brass neck to go back to work at that company but to be honest you have to have advertising as part of any journalism fund its business.

She have to have since the daily currants first published in Fleet Street in 1702 that had news on the front page it had adverts on the back and there's a little message from the owner who was a woman by the way.

Publisher who said we are relative make their own mind up about the news and we are published we are funded by Advertiser so that you know we're not funded by the government or anybody else.

This is how we achieve independence and that is the process which has always work since then it does work for the internet as well increasingly so go there problems and the sun's problem up to now has been a really small number of users for its website that has been able to get them to pay but they're there for the bingo in the football and to some extent for the pastry girls are there why you pay for that? I don't know because it's free online.

They had some issues that have not got a new site.

They do not get a mince traffic.

They've only got about 50000 mobile uses a day for example compared to about 15 million and a month for the mirror.

So which is so yeah, they appetising is all about numbers and how you get people in although.

They do have customers who pay and subscribers may be more useful to advertise as they never thought they also probably like to use ad blocking.

You need to get a lot of free traffic into I'll be very interested to know what on earth are going to do with a new site because they don't have a News website a present and Steve what about this issue without blocking because yes, they're going to the freeware even with all the Murdoch money behind it and he knows let's say that they do succeed in their names and I managed recall the mirror within a year or two not gonna be able to monetize the uses of the highway blocking issue.

Is I think really interesting and I saw a great phrase the other day.

I can't remember who said it but someone said locking is being around for ages.

It's called going on making a cup of tea, and it is true.

I mean ad avoidance from a consumer is something that's bait inches and is only obviously being exacerbated now until reserve both on-demand viewing and away we all scroll through the Everton obviously in terms of when you're on on a website and you're getting you know you're singing advert most time you click that little cross in the top right hand corner as you can get rid of it as fast as it.

Is it pops up?

I'm sorry, I think if your brand you've got to say what do you want to be that irritant that is getting in the way of the of the content that someone wants to access or can I can I eat that in somewhere? I can there's a big difference in obviously is accepted brands brands are needed to fund in a dad is the model waited until someone comes up with something better with very few exceptions that The Economist in the ft.

Where you got rain in each product you can charge people for tell someone comes up with something better brands are going to be necessary, but what I think this really rotates around his the new models that was started so you've also part of that is obviously native advertising in terms of Brands starting to create something that's of worth to the audience and I think I see what Will Be Blood Like Lauren Laverne's website the forwarding which which is quite cheating is not taking advertising approach for taking a sponsorship approach with us a favour and will cover a certain area.

No Marks and Spencer's is our is our brand sponsor for our food section.

We're not saying that with publishing Mark Spencer's content.

We just seeing their funding everything that's here.

They're not editorially influencing.

What's here?

Current which would raise as much as I'm going to right now, is it when you do that? You got story about M&S salt content in sandwiches can that website cover it can then use Alexa with advertising? Are you can say that can add usability or usefulness for the for the end-user? I think if you're using your writing an article in the Telegraph does is quite a bit as well, so it's print stuff.

You're writing a lot on that China and stuff and stuff that sponsored by the xinhua news agency people notice and people object because the one thing they really expect every news out that no matter what it is.

Is that it's fairly independent and it's following the rough agenda of its last year Telegraph over one of the banks were they were intentionally avoiding HSBC HSBC just weren't reporting on it at all because HSBC will be running again.

We got we got owners who you know for almost all I national papers who got their own agendas and make sure that.

There's only certain things that are on talked about depend on what their commercial agenda is and obviously the BBC bashing is potentially one of those cases in point, where is that something the public care about as much as the owners care about it is always those going to be those functions are now.

I mean I mean ultimately the Challenge for a newspaper owners in terms of the world the world of the web if they are going to have to find a new model because the current model just isn't going to translate across to the web because you're competing on a much wider landscape.

Not just compete against other newspapers anymore if you can if you can quite happily be sponsored by M&S and yet still give him a list of shooting when they need doing fine.

I think it's good if it's big money sponsorship.

Thing is going to exist in the current climate.

That's just not going to happen between is quite late.

This is why companies like BuzzFeed have the upper hand on.

This is not just at there be experts in creating advertorial falling better phrase.

It's that the audience expect it cos they

Grown out of that culture so right from the beginning.

That's what BuzzFeed always was it's not what the sun was so it's harder isn't it for a heritage title to say write the cast of now.

We doing brands, are they still have a reputation for newsworthiness which would clash with that? I think it's well, but she said earlier on is there human beings are very adept tuning out advertising whether it comes in the form of radio or TV or anything else and I see advertorials and flip you can spot them and use over them also what things are blocking is make the most it tends to happen on desktop computers of a apple.

I've got this new app for the iPhone to make make it more popular.

Generally people don't bother on mobiles quite so much and mobiles is one of the biggest areas of growth for online used so it may not have quite the same impact as it has done on destiny taken the money.

I won't bother doing on my phone.

I would say I wouldn't over that's too and actually is the onus on the consumer to an extent probably everyone listening to this doesn't have ad blocking software because they are aware that the media can't make.

Because I think the most consumers I think doesn't even occurred to them and I think really the challenge is actually on the advertisers because ultimately if you can produce advertising that is of worth to someone you know someone you got what 2 or 3 seconds to catch them as a tension before they go this is irritating me and sons of I want to get to the article and trying to get to but if that advert is relevant to me.

I mean half the time the other problem in most of the hardware served is the just not relevant.

You know you're getting served all sorts of products and things that just aren't relevant to you as a consumer not delete your search history.

Is it exactly I never sleep the one the possibility that the internet allows is for the audience to be super served in a as I understand it gets deeper and deeper of what people do what do and don't like so that's really the challenge to advertise.

How do I grab someone's attention and make sure that actually my head spend his being used in a way where I am.

I am being ultra relevant to the people who who I want to reach its tail counterargument to TV TV

Numbers but you you're happy to say that is going to a lot of wasted because lots of people you're reaching you're not interested in but you'll do that for the sake of the people you will reach work better than the display upside to get evening as you can tell to this millisecond.

How much time someone has spent on a page where abouts there are on that page went down to how much will a red and where they got their from and how they are accessing it hammer time is considered the rest that you don't have that in print advertising display advertising additionally so I think although the model needs to be Bieber tweet.

I think the in time as readership increases and people have more aware of how you can access people when I'm really Taylor adverts doing them, but actually online advertising is going to be worth a lot more than it is now ok.

Let's talk about the granddaddy of one-to-many media platforms radio at on Thursday we have the latest radios.

They are the quarterly ratings for the industry.

It is all done by listeners filling in Dyer

What they've heard at this quarter is for spring Into Summer so we've no information yet as to the return of Chris Moyles and how that's gone down, but there are still plenty of interesting findings we asked folder medias Matt Deegan friend of the show to crunch the numbers latest figures are in and it's been good need to digital radio now accounting for 41.9% of all radio listen which is a pretty stoneking number two-thirds of that.

It's listening to DAB digital radio now that she has a volume of listening when we look at reach.

We find that 63% of the country listen to some form of digital radio each week.

That's about 30 million people 20 million of them are listening to DAB and 9 million listening online and 7.7 million the tuning into the digital TV over to Radio 1 not a bad quarter you look at the top.

I think is pretty static and if you start to dive into it though.

I think there's some potentially worrying trends for them this quarter was a second low.

Ever reach for 15 to 24 year olds this damn over here.

They really should be targeting also the Radio 1 Breakfast Show had its lowest ever 15:24 reach as well and what really want often say they say all don't think about the numbers but think about the proportion our audience V News24 what is kind of bad news for that as well, because they make up I think the pillows to the joint lowest proportion of its total audience ever answer the breakfast shows like the third lowest it's ever been proportionally that's a lot to do 5224 setting for Radio 1 more of things I suggest on my blog this week.

Is is have a should use a digital platforms tickly the success of I'd on YouTube to again really push back to the radio.

I think talking some of the guys there at Hinkley C Radio 1 as a cross Media platform, but the thing that service licence is pointing to mainly is there a radio station but why not use YouTube more aggressively to push people back to them to the linear broadcast London is such competitive place for radio listening lottery.

Stations both analogue and digital it's where the ad agencies are so there's always a lot of people concentrating on the numbers that it's got really tight at the top capital kiss heart and magic always Batley out for the top spot today.

We've got a kiss as the most listened to station, but only just 3000 people ahead of Capital FM if you look the other way at the volume of listening.

How many hours are there any other way round? Where capital is the most listened to station and kisses number to this time we got the last figures for XFM and had a good one really they were across the network up to a million and 49000 which is 104.9 in the London frequency geeks everywhere, but yes a good good book them to finish on I was in is there an element that people have all the pressure taken off them if you know your stations going and which may be is why they relaxed and I've done so well in the rest of the country different things in different places in Oxfordshire Jack FM

Will Jack to have been trying to push against heart used to be called Fox FM very strong in that area at now there any 4000 listeners behind them which is a real success for them been cheating see what happens over next 12 months are also good figures for a rain in the Midlands all the station's up quarter on Quarter and a brilliant formants by other station the East Midlands gem FM at 476000 weeks pretty much is the highest ever Big Book poor news for Key 103 in Manchester slipping from commercial number 32 commercial number for facing lots of challenges at from Capital hot and smooth Steve Ackerman is Matt Deegan right that radio one is making a mistake but all of its efforts in to YouTube and not branding that as come and listen to us on 97 to 99 FM or is that outmoded thinking I think he's he's right and wrong at the same time at night.

I think he's writing at this some tweaking that can happen to ensure that there's there's a more circular journey going on for

Member of the audience that the starting to sample are the bits of radio ones output and ultimately hopefully to listen listen to something.

I think where he's wrong is that Radio 1 think is quite right in taking the approach of knots in muscles.

Just as a radio station anymore and trying to develop muscles really as a youth brand because the audience they're trying to reach certainly do not view radio as their primary medium and therefore Radio 1 as the BBC's entry point for young listeners to the BBC is going to be relevant.

It's got to have those presences that it's got on YouTube on social media and most interestingly on the iPlayer and I've said for a long time if you follow through the Logical conclusion a BBC3 going on online actually the BBC's most powerful you friend is not BBC3 it's Radio 1 and I would scrap BBC3 and brand that Radio 1 and then complete that circular journey and if the station's burner becoming brand rather than just radio stations and your company something else for years has been rebranded if you like as a multi-platform content creation company not as a radio in the witches he started.

Is there any room left for people listen to this who consider themselves to work in the radio industry Iona radio station Iona Radio interview? I am a radio producer.

Will that exist in 10 years time it will exist in the centre of course radios not going away.

I mean listening is still as high as as ever whether that's on demand listening or it's it's live listening in a people Apple don't start getting into this or the listening space and if they think there's money to be made all this some traction there, but I think anybody who views himself just in the lens of a single platform creator is probably not got understanding the way the world is revolving in a whether your TV producer in news journalist of radio producer.

You have to have things like social media skills baked into what you do or least an understanding of those spaces.

It doesn't mean you've got a suddenly ignore your your your radio skills that can be your core competency but the idea that all you do is make radio and the rest of the world to the doesn't happen around yours.

I think really I came.

Metcheck Pearson very similar conversation tomorrow to tell me about paywalls and you look at the ratings Radio 2 doing very well as ever Radio 4 Radio 4 Extra playing on with it still goes on it.

Everyone likes radio PopMaster listen to Nick Grimshaw who's got the amazing ability to repel audience has been several Media it went like a multi-platform auntie magnet for audiences TV arranging everything else.

It's the same as anything else.

It's the same as the their problems and the challenges which and facing print Media it's that you've got a series of skills and series of abilities all the people that work in it and it's just a way of finding a different way to deliver it is improving technology.

It's no different to the challenges facing newspapers when movable type came in all went colour printing came in a when digitisation came in this is just a new method of publication and it's the same cleaner on the internet and it's the same with radio people are accessing radio just Leander accessing it online and I can I play and things like that, but I don't really quite think that the BBC

The only part of it needs to have a brand of it so and I'm hoping that would go with a public service remit for the BBC the BBC is the Britannia gonna get a bit.

Love you on about it, but the BBC is the brand and the bits of it.

You know they need to serve the public in the way they do in the ratio 1 needs to get to younger people but I need to get needs to be a friend per se I think that would be jumping the big fish and yet radio still measures when they're listening to FM at certain times of the day.

You're goading me only cos you know my you know why he's I mean.

You know to me rager is is just nonsensical and maybe as somebody doesn't actually work at radio station, but obviously loves radio news involved in radio.

I can say that a bit easier, but it is still bonkers in this day and age that the radio industry has to wait months and months and months to get figures from months back and the whole system is based on people putting stickers in Diaries or taking something on a screen trying to remember what they were listening to 5 days ago at 7.

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Come to learn more four out of five is a fantastic Smart TV decent value for money and the picture quality is incredible.

Not that I've actually watched it and never even used it.

That's right.

This is a fake review and I can paint quite the picture for the right price of course wasting your time and your money.

I think review could cost you more than you think a which member.

Help you avoid these lies search which for impartial product reviews which keep questioning are planning a linear broadcast channel in the UK according to broadcast magazine plan is to partner with local broadcasters to make it happen doubling the size of its production here in the UK Steve they say they're leaning towards a free-to-air solution kind of sauce Channel 4 doesn't it? I can't see who else is going to have the money or the platform did to tie up with voice not this early because I couldn't take some space on someone like freeview or Freesat I'm assuming what you're suggesting is just some programs that would sit within channel 4, where is what I take that are squeeze them, so that their own channel was made in association with becomes part of the Channel 4 portfolio because otherwise it becomes a bit like current TV again.

You know it sounds like a good idea, but I think it goes back to what we were somewhere earlier in terms of Radio 1 which is if you want to think about.

About modern audiences particularly young audiences you just got to think about that sort of circular journey.

They going to go on the fact that you're trying to touch them on every platform that they might interact on and I mean you don't need to cut hinge jig moving the sense of young audiences.

Are you know don't go to to live TV as much as any of us would have done when we were a little bit younger, but it's still got a relevance in it and it's still there.

It's a platform so I think it's possible squaring the circle for them in Oakley they see it as a way to eventually Drive people back to the website which is presumably where most of the money is for them in general or specifically for the numbers, but there seems to be a disproportion amount of height in relation to those enough.

It's supposed what I mean by that is a maybe it's just that I'm too old at the Grand ages 34 actually on my Facebook wall people aren't sharing Violets I think every 22 mi Facebook will their children.

Graduation ceremonies and stuff like that kind of thing is it's quite easy to get some time.

It's quality is the things that is most important that you can keep people there and keep if you can be free to be going to have some kind of advertising or some kind of funding somewhere in the business one of the things they ask you said that voice they would he got there to your TV series ready to go to go and they're not very good TV series.

I also if it's going to be something that online or something or an actual going to a new TV channel somewhere else then it makes me wonder how they got so many how they managed to spend any money on it whatsoever whether just three things that Media's units of knocks up in and put up on YouTube or something and frankly whether it's going to be long enough to qualify for what you are a most of the caller TV series when it's going to be very short bike bits in a lot of Internet video things that you get.

Very very short form, but they do make documentaries Never Enough see sitting on lots lots of hours that they've already even works already produced and and people watching so presumably the I do his world.

He created his content in a number of offices around the world and therefore you know there's probably content being produced now the countries that may be UK audiences.

Haven't seen as my business has a lot of content being for use therefore put that on one channel you've got you know you got a schedule ready to go to Channel 5 The Girl with 5 heads kind of thing documentaries and steak perfectly used to be good, but I don't know they've got channels on YouTube.

I don't even have enough for a TV channel on their own all the logistics and stuff about of be involved in bringing it to run a professional Enterprise it's also the former point in his this year.

TV industry, so cold by commissioning a remake of the BBC's house cards are digging hour-long drama effectively, I wonder whether you know voice taking a 12 minute thing or a 75 minute documentary about sticking out on the video TV channel actually just doesn't played the tried and tested ways people actually do want to consumer TV which is with recaps every 10 minutes and a format that they know at same time every 13 seconds guess it can you I mean I mean potential you might save if your voice would you look at potentially versioning some of that stuff because of CTV you can sit with longer formats words online potentially some of the bits you up for you know you want off with a shorter version and clearly if you then Christmas ortiz or something for social media you gain even even smaller and shorter again.

So that I mean.

I wouldn't bet against them purely because I think what they done up until now has been incredibly impressive and when you look at them in the short space of them and BuzzFeed and mashable.

You probably save there currently the sword leader so I've I would say your ignore them at your

Heroin dose of I understand how to reach younger audiences and and create current affairs or newsy related stuff that is relevant for that audience very BBC Newsnight something that I imagine that people an older generation do spend a little bit longer with a journalist working there has had his laptop confiscated by police under the terrorism act and the BBC did not contested.

That's easy what's going on here? What's the story of standard practice if you're a journalist in normal news coverage that you have to speak to the police now and again and quite often help them with their inquiries had a phone call from a cuppa last week about a story.

I did years ago about someone who claim to been assaulted at the BBC and two reported to police announce S5 the way I've been handled by them and the BBC story about it because when you used to see him, because she was a sexual assault victim copper wanted to know who that person was in order to rule them out of the enquiries that they also doing and could I speak to her?

The rest of it cos she's a victim of crime because she got you spoken to the police actually no reason whatsoever.

Not just say yeah, he's fine.

He is The Notebook it is but here's my phone number for her visa the details read it out over the phone.

It's not an issue, but if using your position of trust with her who in the case of this Newsnight journalist.

You gone speaking to people who I want to be jihadis, and the money has come and police have said using the terrorism act.

We need to know who these people are initially would have approached that producer and said we'd like to talk to you about this bloke called know who is been in Newsnight and you interviewed him.

He said his child needs a serious and is not a confidential source is not like Wally man has come up to me and said see the other great story hear about the inner workings LBC don't mention my name but his other detail here's a leaked memo and I've gone and then her imagination by Fisher

Commit the crime allegedly you know it's terrorism who who was admitted committing a crime who is trying to promote terrorism by propaganda by the BBC and the police officer speak to him.

I don't know whether users she wasn't they say however the BBC a student principle here and said we will not give up a notebook.

Just on principle.

You know it's the opposite of what the sun.

Did when the phone-hacking investigation came along way through every confidential source.

They have under the bus in order to try and avoided prosecution.

I had all these prosecutions for paying police officials in Stansted because they've had enough to go and get a warrant then under terrorism act that they have to give over laptop and they don't argue it because they're happy to help police enquiries, but they just wanted to be forced by the police if see what I mean, but I did this particular BBC have been just a bit tiny tiny tiny bit ridiculous because he wasn't a confidential source.

I didn't speak to them in secrecy.

He's not someone that you want you should be protecting number of terrorist who claims to be a tear.

It is so easy as well to find jihadis offline.

I mean they're all happy to talk to jail if you only got the DM them there on half the encrypted apps like Kik and WhatsApp and he's like this if the police really compelled to ask BBC's.

Do they work for them.

They're being extremely lazy because they should be on top of these guys phones and mobile networks anyway without asking people to do their work for them and be honest if someone came to me and I've spoken to a Jihadi and I have no interest whatsoever in protecting him and he was potentially a threat and MI5 said could you tell us weather is really this bloke from Luton that you claim today? I'll say what is my number that you are because also the problem is when they Seize a laptop or a notebook former journalist.

You've got a whole bunch of information in there and not having that would stop you doing your job on a longer-term basis with so many other stories but actually doing the principal unless it's really worth it would be futile because they keep those laptops for you for being a journalist who ultimately.

Let me have a tear is my seat been the journalist who gave up the source whether or not it was officially confidential or not is going to prevent other people coming to you which is going to prevent the public see much anyway.

You're not you're not doing an awful.

Lot by protecting him.

You know if you're protecting her as a secret sauce whose job is at risk his life is at risk.

Obviously you do that and I would go to prison rather than give up a sauce in that kind of Circumstance that person claims to be a terrorist is wanted by the police.

I think the journalist does have some responsibility to try and help them river possible.

If not giving them in all their personal details then certainly pointing him in the right direction may be and there, but I think it was impractical to wait for the laptop to be seized and I'm sure I hope that in the time that they are waiting for that in the warrant was issued, so I may erased everything else having a used laptop onto a different hard drives.

They carry on with their work takeaway journalism a quick update on the Freedom of Information story that we mentioned last episode the government is holding a consultation until the end of November at the links on our way.

Library Media podcast of compress are starting to sing with one voice on this issue the Guardian listed on Friday 103 front page stories for British papers, that couldn't have been possible without foi requests.

I'm going to try this question again.

I tried it with Maggie Brown she'd applying for one foi request you said on the part of that men and they're not bothered to chase it up to check the wrong person to ask Suzie I imagine foi request have been useful to you in your job.

I do they usually not useful because the whole purpose of freedom of information laws in this country is to withhold information from people in America there is a similar treatment formation act and the presumption is always that everything goes online and you've got to go to prove that it shouldn't if you want to keep a secret in the UK law which has brought in by Blair who is one of the many things he's responsible for and the presumption was it should never be made public unless you could prove that shit so you have to really know if you want to say for example.

I would like to know.

Emails Michael Gove has shared with his advisers from his official email account this week.

You have to voice it and word it in the such as detailed and delicate way.

There's no possible way, they can we go out of it good if you don't actually Mail down which email account which days and which time is in which officials then and that you're ok with reduction of name doesn't like that then? I'll just say we can't under this week on under that most the time the foi request that you make are denied under ridiculous exemptions that you and have to constantly argue and fight to the point where when you do get the story.

It's completely out of date and it's made am using more often tell Mr Jenner's and students as well.

If you apply under your own name as a journalist it takes 4 seconds for someone to Google it finds out.

You're a journalist and then so right well.

Not answering his question you gets booted up to press officer you get the press office answer not the fai answer so always trying use a pseudonym for when you're doing a foi request which also upsets the foi people specially work out that that's

Just Jersey have to keep changing them round so I'm going to give you an foi request now, so I asked you how many significant would really upset the story is that Chris Grayling who's in chargeable this today has said that im jenlisa misusing this act in order to generate stories and that's not what it's for that is precisely what it's for because journalist on normal citizens and every citizen in this country has a right to access information about how the government is operating on its behalf so jealous.

Have a right to do that all those 103 stories which the Guardian revealed were in the public interest in very important one of them as well with a seat as a 3-year foi battle waged by Chris Grayling when he was an opposition against the department of Transport for his own political ends and that he's now saying that they shouldn't be doing that kind of thing and that we if you do do it.

You should be fine.

You have paid Pulis of amounts in order to act.

This freedom of information is actually not free and if you do get it's not really information.

It's a crime Against Humanity and it shouldn't be allowed Steve when you see that kind of passion coming from journalists and we see similar passions been playing the BBC about potential cutbacks there on the back of what John whittingdale saying does it seem to use it does to me but actually the government is trying to get all of his bad news out of the way now so the rain comes around the next election the meeting might be a bit soft on them again.

So they just right now.

Just hitting the media with everything well.

Government's always obviously at their most powerful when they're in the you know the early stages of a parliament rather than that in the latter stages and and I think this government in particular is the first time obviously had a conservative governor long long time and I think we're seeing a lot of whatever genders not scores being settled very quickly and things on done that.

They weren't so happy about that came in during the labia Sandler I mean you know I mean you've talked about it.

On This podcast in any other media environments the the attacks on the BBC I personally I find it very difficult to see that in any other than politically motivated and yet probably we will forget about something else will be talked about whoever the current leader of the Tories is not dead evening reread it quickly receive receive the tweet was amusing other Facebook shares worth resharing and then we went to the next thing so we don't actually hold a grudge in the way that we should then that's the one thing actually was still pretty.

Still do some people complain about this, but they can hold a grudge for decades one of the best things about me as can the public with the print Media story for you trinity mirror owner of the mirror titles.

Obviously it's only thing as well.

That has bought out other shareholders to Philly only regional publisher local world.

It is one of the biggest.

Owner of a local titles free titles regional press Evening Press website according to the press Gazette that values local world now at 220 million lb just over double what it was worth 3 years ago and they had them specially for a local local paper operation.

I can only assume that that value is driven by the fact that they've managed to move successfully online because obviously there is very little value in local newspapers in terms of another physical papers that say dyeing medium.

I think you know over however you view it.

So they must have some decent numbers to back it up trinity mirror and not stupid people you know so the so deep it does clearly got to be good in there and the ratio they've attached that must be decent based on the fact that there's a strong presence online that's working well, but behind all that what it means.

I'm sure some of Alice's come back yourself.

Is is people journalists content creators called what you like working for local titles have lost their jobs as he will probably see more redundancies on the way as a result.

Even if turns American intend to do that just if you can't make it more like the world is Triple the size of the next two largest regional publishes a long time and everything else, but still got a lot of and access to people and it's a good sign because people are so it shows the sun is that she prepared to invest in local newspapers no matter what it is.

They intend to do with that in the future.

That's got to be something good because lots of people think things like your local newspapers a dying and there's problems and it's not gonna work anymore on blah blah, but if you don't have a local newspaper don't have local Jones where's that's online or and radio on TV anything else.

You're not holding your local authority of local councils to account and believe it or not.

It's your local councillor Parish Council Town Council the County Council have most impact on people stars compared to the government spend so much time covering the government.

What really matters to people is who's organising a bin collections who sorting out the potholes who is arranging the care for their grandmother this kind of thing is all done by local authorities.

There are fewer and fewer people voting in local elections these days the last election in 2010 there were more uncontested seats than ever before so that people are just been returned to local council seats without any other games to be the local parish councillor and those of the people that sort out your your planning applications and your bypass is an all the cast of That Matters most people see if you can find a way to invest in local journalism even if that means changing the method of delivery for it or producing some of the numbers, so you'll been having fewer but it is more reported as something as long as you are still getting those local stories then it's got to be for the good for all of us, but the issue is I guess a lot of those local journalist aren't going down to the local County, I think few of them are actually going out.

Yeah, I was at the Kent press awards.

Last year which iOS is a training Kent when I was about 18 and that was very honoured to be invited to get back as judge and I was Anna table of journalist.

He won't my old local paper and they dinner I spent my training ship going to the parish council meetings.

I Spit my 21st birthday.

Planning committee because I genuinely was that kind of 21 year old and new the coppers.

I knew the counselors.

I knew the figures and every house in the street and there was office in the middle of a town you can speak to people he made a mistake Mrs Miggins came in with her cat to complain to you about it and now there's journalist in the bigger office in a different town turning stuff out.

They tweet and their Facebook who is classed as they do multi-platform stuff, but they do not go on knock on doors in the same way, they don't attend councils in the same way.

They don't dig out story that it knows some of the people in the same way, but if you can find a way to make it work online going back to the original thing.

We're talking about here about online content if you can find a way to make that business plan.

Work then journalism actually has access to more readers than ever before in human history, you should be making more money than ever before in human history therefore if you get less out of each one penny out of each reader, but you're still making more money and you should therefore be a stronger industry-level eventually in maybe 10 or 20 years time we have to crack the online business content and then local journalism national journalism international journalism essay.

Forever doesn't power of social media potentially navigate against that into the old cliché of you know the local you know a bunch of local residents being able to mobilize themselves unable to communicate with each other in a way that exceed 2030 years ago only way that was going to happen with you went round in the evening and run and everybody's doorbell say have you heard that this power station is going to be built locally but obviously the numbers are growing and we've we've been a long ago broken away from the time when it was only only younger audiences on on social and I mean so you know so I can think of my on local environment with issues at local school have been driven far more by

Social media then they have by the local you're not going to get the news here, but you're more likely perhaps to follow the the local news feed for the local BBC channel or for the local I take anything else and that if their reporting aren't you must be kept up and then go and find the right thing because the thing about social media and online generally is it rather and radio even is that rather than having blanket in Open broadcast provocation with your hoping people pick it up you're having to directly target people you're going straight into their heads via their mobile phone when they're on the toilet last thing at night and that you need they need to be able to know exactly what they get their their targeting one story out of a news outlet not hundreds of them and you'll have to be able to get them in that one particular special targeted wet so I mean the truth is I think it's the middle area isn't it? I mean you're right in saying that social work isn't too young.

Used to me and you're right in saying it's not just really old people who read local papers anymore then might be people parents and concerned at the school.

He would check it out, but it is somewhere in the middle people probably just don't engage with local Media tool.

Won't will local journalism feels to me like one of those of the word e things everybody wants it because if I can understand as I literally can't think of one person.

I know who buys a local newspaper and that's pronounce.

That's probably london-centric thing.

I'm sure if I you know are you know maybe if I was living in a small village somewhere where where where that might be relevant that may be true so I'm I'm happy told my nipples are leaving a little media bubble and I may not be representative at news in other ways and everything else.

I don't need it in the singer, but I think half a problem is that you don't have local communities in the way used to people are far more dispersed people have fun further away from their families and they're not perhaps quite so

Tuned into what's happening in their Street or in the village of town with its the London Village or somewhere else then they used to be because they go to work they worry about stuff.

They say on Twitter and they're about their kids school and that's the end of their interesting things could be got this short attention span because he spent too much time online.

I'd like to put a word in Hertfordshire parish newsletter way gets delivered by car to my door at on the monthly basis for absolutely brilliant value subscription if I think £12 a year I inherited it when I moved into the house.

I've been too terrified to tell the other than that.

I don't really want it.

I'm not that interested in what's happening at the Wi-Fi do quite enjoy reading it good boy saying it's good and I can get mine about the local events apple day the other week before we go there is just time for our Media quiz hooray, also look black this week.

It is entitled vested interests or I'll give you three opinions expressed by a company or an individual you tell me who would say that wouldn't they so, she's your name only been here once before just the protocol is.

Buzzing with your name seems to be hard contact number to get service at no you just say Susan ok and see what do you say seriously in you know the answer the winner is Dr Jekyll and the loser hides from Ofcom that's a terrible pun and I didn't write OK here is question number one who would say that wouldn't they BBC1 and BBC2 should be banned from Ayr in international format? I think they've been part of this a general should have a consultation about the future the BBC which last time I looked had about 1000 different independent reviews and reports and stuff Gate or just need one for Guinness a waste of money and though they say that the BBC shouldn't be able to be able to buy drama series example to buy popular American things or to buy The Voice franchise exhibition the spent money.

West Ham and they should just concentrate and doing their own stuff in the ITV bite the stuff that's commercial absolutely right because our culture media and sport committee enquiry saying you shouldn't buy international format same as no one else but obviously this is your kind of condemning the BBC Two are only unpopular stuff and some of the format we think of as uniquely BBC like Dragons Den The Apprentice our international format standing very BBC One obviously you're also in the you could argue for content creators your distorting the market because you're basically what you're basically saying is ITV you're the most powerful commercial play you have your pick of what you want name your price and that's what is going to be a low price because don't worry anyone else's got money isn't going to compete with you alright his number to which vested interest said this BBC worldwide shouldn't be privatised.

Channel 4 don't know why they're so well and I'm going to put in the official judges complaint that you are not your mind me to Susie and not to me so bad luck even though she's is one because clearly I read it.

So leave it all to play for not attending any way to vested interest question of the three the campaign against my college Seamus Milne is deeply unfair which vested interest said that it must be something for the data must be the garden but I have no idea who at the Guardian yes, it was there guardian columnist, Owen Jones socialism has gone on temporary leave to head up labours comms team as he was appointed by the way.

If they want to appoint someone from a newspaper to operate as a comms team, that's pretty good idea there certain date in the past and Alastair Campbell have been there for the Tories and stables been there for later as fair enough.

I checked in a massive scale is the fact that he's on leave from the Guardian to do this effectively means that the Guardians in the government's pocket what's on in the office in labour parties pocket being objective tool than they are not a journalist anymore if you take an honour from the government in the day if you and go to work for that one particular particle party.

You have to stop being a jealous when you're not spending 90 when Jeremy Corbyn is unsuccessful in the general election keep hold of your job effectively means that paper is.

Saying it's support that party leader and that political viewpoint and the guards are local supporters.

They still criticised still could only still criticize Cameron I don't understand the controversy.

I mean I didn't know you was on leave, but I don't know when you say the minute.

I genitals been objective.

They're not a journalists use ways of journey.

You can't come down get even anyway at school where I am wrong with that they sort of work for a newspaper that has a particular left or right by ascending perception regarding of work for the sun and every time I work for differently but I get accused of telling that behind because you happen to do write a particular story for them and doesn't mean you've lost your object what about Andrew Pierce his handle on Twitter is at toryboypierce is quite open about the fact that is a conservative supporter.

Objective it's not quite thinking of Ofcom rules, but I'm disgusted as a journalist that someone who is a journalist and is now working for a political party thinks they can still be a journalist.

You can't understand what party is that your I don't quite understand the idea of sort of keeping his job open in the sense of was surely.

He could have left and then when he's finished doing his job.

He goes back.

I'm not quite sure where I'm going to make a ridiculous editorial decision now and end this podcast even though this is very entertaining to listen to and it's been so long, but I've actually got the one quiz which is just as well.

I wonder quiz thank you very much and all about downloaded automatically to your phone just head to the media podcast dot.com and today's show is dedicated to the following fantastic people who made it happen.

Thank you very much Andrew winter at development telenet.

Hampshire tabby Tom blakeson Martin clenched and Mark Gannon at who included with his donation the no to the Piers quote more than happy to pay to keep creativity free all sounds very noble if you just like to give us some money and get your name on the show then please do help us.

It's how we keep this show running the media podcast dot.com / dedicate a whole range of options that are now.

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I've been Ollie man.

The producer is Matt Hill the media podcast is 8 PPM production so next time.

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