Read this: #34 - BBC debate begins, Quirker launch Moyles on XFM - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only met on today's show it begins a year of charter renewal debate on the future of the BBC welcome Eilat plus those weird local stories that fill out I'm across the country and are all in one place.

We talk to local world about their new digital platform worker also on the program the NME Goes Free is Chris Moyles set to return to breakfast radio and we asking just how transparent is the application process for one of the big gigs at the bead.

That's all coming up on this week's Media podcast with me today at the hospital club is the broadcasting consultant Paul Robinson welcome back Paul thank you.

Good to be here and also with this is Laura Mansfield melora co-founded the TV company outline Productions in 1999 and is also the chair of the Producers Trade Association packed welcome to the show lorry, thank you for having me do.

Podcast Virgin busy times at packed this is well times this appearance as well x and very very busy times at packed so exciting times to learning in media regulations happened on this site quite frequently give us give us some titillating showbiz stuff.

What are the Productions you've been involved with outline work which we worked with Tanya Byron with Claudia Winkleman we work with that whole number but it wouldn't stars over the years and at the moment of cooking up a range of exciting shows for the UK and for America appropriately titillated by that's a bit bit.

Thank you and they're ready to talk about media regulation the government launching their green paper on the BBC on Thursday which is the day of recording sauces hot hot hot off the press John whittingdale the culture secretary outline the parameters of a debate today which is going to last until this time next year strapping at he can.

Permed the closure of the iPlayer loophole, that allows people to watch On Demand content without a licence.

He didn't commit to the inflation-linked deal that Tony Hall announce two weeks ago citing the scale of the BBC as a problem and as we record tonight.

There's lots of speculation that there's a threat of selling BBC worldwide commercial arm of the BBC at those kind of the headlines at then there's also this one key task is to assess whether the idea of universality still holds water with so much more choice in what consumers had consume it.

We must at least question whether the BBC should try to be all things to all people to serve everyone across every platform or if they should have a more precisely targeted mission Laura with your packed hat on festival.

What is your reaction to all of these very much debated headlines.

About to enter into is a marathon not a sprint and you know I think it's really really important to take on board that this is a consultation and I think most of what I've read in Saturday's executive summary in the kind of Enid the Beginnings of the green paper are that John whittingdale is opening a consultation here and that is what's an appropriate process for charter review that he genuinely take on board the opinions of stakeholders in members of the public of licence fee payers and difficult questions need to be asked and but I think you know the tone and flavour of the green paper and I thought was quite encouraging you know he's absolutely celebrating The Importance and relevance of the BBC writing a very very opening paragraphs of this document, so I should have no I don't think that way anyone's going into this is some some sort of a war I think what we need to order is going to this very much as a consultation packed absolutely be responding to this consultation.

And we've already given evidence to the House of Lords earlier this week and will be continuing to consult on all of these different questions that have been raised and you was going into it as a war but all that kind of phraseology and terminology does come up repeatedly doesn't it? Because there is a feeling that the conservatives in particular and of course there now the government didn't like way to BBC behave during the election.

The negotiation a couple of weeks ago was all done behind closed doors again and that therefore whatever happens now.

You know there a central figures in the government like George Osborne who just want the BBC to be smaller in this consultation to fig leaf anyway.

Well.

I think the first thing is I think it's good now.

We're talking about the scope of the BBC what the BBC should do.

What's the program should should make how should be funded.

That's the right debate to have as Laura saying all of the discussion just before the boat.

It was of course about the licence fee about the BBC now you take on the commitment to provide licences for people 75 plus and of course the closing of the loop on the iPlayer which is completely right.

There is clearly going to be more and more programming including BBC programming watch On Demand rather than live a linear channels and that should therefore be brought in that say a change in technology that clearly wasn't envisage 10 years ago when the last charter was renewed so that's all all good clearly.

There was a lot of discussion about the decision about the funding and the reality of the BBC is the BBC does need to look at how it makes programs.

He needs to look at the fishing.

See you still got far too many managers far too many layers and you know the only way you're going to force the BBC to do that is actually to take a bold move in the way, I was born did so how they can receive that saving how they're going to find it.

That's another issue, but now we're back to the really important thing which is what are the BBC do we want what we want to be with you to do what sort of scale what sort of scope and of course this about funding as she quite rightly said he did not confirm in the screen paper than Messi being RPI linked licence fee.

That's because you got a first of all define.

What is the BBC going to do and then you decide.

How you pay for it and what you you pay for? I think it's also important to say that John whittingdale is not anti the BBC you know he's someone I talked to in the past about this and he believes in the BBC I think he believes in a strong BBC BBC the actually is only important part of the overall broadcasting ecology, but he was auntie backroom deals wasn't it said so publicly and then and then was clear backroom.

Deal is a deal.

That's actually been done confidentially and I don't think you can do everything by consultation the licence fee settlement and the decision of George Osborne mate.

You couldn't possibly share that with large number people.

Do you know what happened that leaked out it would mean the BBC's as policy comes not even all the cabinet.

I told her about it.

So you know if you going to do something like that.

You have to be confidential.

That's not a backroom deal.

That's just actually being sensible whittingdale is actually pro the BBC and if they get this ride and the BBC is properly structured in such a way it is truly doing something unique for the

UK both domestically and overseas NZ overseas is very important for the BBC is a really important Monica for this country outside the UK that will secure the future of the BBC and I I support that because I want a strong creative BBC and that's what I think this is about Laura do you agree with all that it wasn't backroom deal what happened before the budget that that was sort of the best way to go at least the lesser of two evils if it leaked out then you know what you imagine The Terror of having a public consultation.

I've been having a lot of people just would would like to have had a sauna fair-haired new coming hot off the heels of that.

I mean there's pros and cons.

I like the leap.

Whether it leaked out or not.

It's sort of slightly by the by that thing early.

Cos it is it is particularly significant all relevant thing.

I think it feels slightly premature to have decided the amount of the settlement before having determined the scope and scale and obviously that's why last week there was wording.

And the fact that that was contingent and obviously you know the the impact of taking onboard the cost for the over 75's is going to be really significant in is going to materially affect what the BBC is going to be able to do and yes, they may have mitigated it, but it is going to be able to affect the range of their activities so I would have liked to have seen it on the other way round there is comfort for the BBC of at least knowing something now early enough in the process to make their plans does pros and cons really ok, but you're both kind of the welcoming the fact that there is a consultation now and he said no question should be off the table is nothing wrong with asking the questions now as part of this green paper.

So what would in a nutshell very briefly but your answers to those questions yeah, what do you think the BBC is 4? What would you be doing thoroughly? That's an enormous question and you don't there.

I think something like 20 detailed different questions asked in the green paper.

So I can't really possibly speak to all of them.

What could I definitely not be happy? I would I would actually said a flip it around.

I'm not sure of a set of positive glass half full kind of person.

I think what you need to start with is what they doing right and what they're generally doing why is being not only the Beacon and the pillar of the entire Public Service Broadcasting system in this country, but you don't shedding huge creative light on what the UK creative sector does globally there producing wonderful programs in the main which well-made well produced not only buying house, but significantly Now by independent producers and there is a real super creative excellence.

I think the problems that we've seen and the timing is always very challenging is you know they've been a lot of scandals in recent years and I think there is a lack of transparency about some of the spend and some of the income you know for example the income Flows In Between BBC worldwide on BBC isn't made transparent and I think we would like to see a lot more transparency, but I mean when you look at all the positives at the BBC

I mean the positives far Far outweigh the negatives, but it's it is important to be asking these questions and I don't think any question should be off the table.

We should be able to have a really robust Debate and bring it on ok.

Well, then that case for you can be a glass half empty person.

What are they doing wrong bbc.co.uk the BBC does many things right in make some fantastic programs Motors programmes are on good.

It is a great standard setter.

Yeah.

It's a standard.

Set of quality is also a trainer for the industry and they said as a beacon for The Creator community overseas.

They're all very good things.

You should continue to do that, but it does do badly though.

It is inefficient.

It wastes money hasn't really got a sense of appreciating the incoming get because it hasn't got to earn it.

You know when money just comes to automatically does via licence fee.

Don't quite spend this tightly as you should and the BBC can be more efficient.

It was a commercial organisation.

It would be more efficient it also makes things it shouldn't and The Voice has been talked about a lot, but it's a great example.

There is no reason for the BBC to make The Voice The Voice will be Friday by the market and as he's in every other country of the world.

I mean the BBC is there any public service broadcasters in The Voice so you know why you believe the BBC Assad BBC2 The Voice in the UK is there's no logic alignment and there are many other public service and it should not be making them Laura with shaking her head Sophie McGrath was a might fall off.

Lorry there is no argument for keeping the voice on the baby's discuss many arguments on the BBC first and foremost in the 3 key values of the BBC inform educate entertain and that entertainment is every bit as important.

As the other values and entertainment not just as part of making beautiful factual programmes that are entertaining too and that bring people to difficult subjects by being entertaining but entertainment for entertainment sake is a really important thing and I cannot cannot stress that enough I also think when you actually look at the specifics of the voice and the specifics of the BBC number one because the BBC create really really high quality and producers and and commissions high quality creative content it sets of bar.

It sets the bar the other broadcasters must compete with and they do and because the BBC shows programs like Strictly Come Dancing like the voice you get ITV coming at it with every gun and it's Arsenal and producing extraordinary entertainment like the X Factor like Britain's Got Talent our bar is higher than almost any other broadcaster on the planets.

For The Voice that's why people pick it up this experience and I'm just saying he absolutely is no it's not sooner I Did It Wasn't There idea.

It's a really well produced program that so clever format if you look at the talent that song that show these a really positive icons that represent British society that a diverse that speak to a broad range of audience who might not want to come to a program about hedgehogs all badges, but they do want to come to the voice the values expressed by that show with very positive.

You've got all the people being represented young people being represented and it's an hour of your life on a Saturday night and why on earth not in the mix of what they do it's important if it was the only thing they did know know know but in the mix of the range of output.

They have its crucial that entertainment must be there and the idea that but that pundit she tells me she not commission One Show or another show it go down that road, and we're going to end up with very very very nice very dull programs and

Massively diminished BBC and therefore a massively diminished creative sector, it's not a pond is to say what the BBC commission the BBC statue her better judgement and decide what condition and not commission the voice let me ask you write to spend tens of millions of pounds to John de Mol for a format call the voice that basically is a copy of the X Factor with swing chairs example.

It is like public money money money tens of Millions for a format that say copycat format an upfront tens of millions format when you see these numbers quoted their quoted out of context what we talked.

I know what the deal was Laura it.

Was it was a three-year period in you start taking the numbers like that lots and lots of other examples multimillion-dollar copycat format I think so yeah, it would be better spending that 20 million on originating your own format light district.

Yes, so from that point of view is the voice mistake.

I wouldn't say that the voice is a mistake and I would say in the mix it it absolutely the right thing that you don't eat what they only did was commission external format and they didn't create anything new and they didn't stimulator any new production.

I think that would be completely the wrong mix but in a balanced and unbalanced ecology.

I think absolutely what have a little bit of everything is very clear which way your swivel chairs facing respectively on that particular debate.

This is to briefly about the BBC Trust because that is now kind of well on the chopping block as well people seem to be suggesting.

What are the viable alternatives for it? Well the problem with any BBC regulate turning when I was at the BBC it was a board of governors and the board of governors didn't really work either.

I mean like the BBC trust and honesty they probably Rona fairhead.

She's been captured by the BBC management.

What do you need anything the BBC's interest is a regulator this truly arm's length and will truly judge the BBC appropriately on active basis, so there's different.

Been talked about there's obviously off, Swan there's a new style regulator there's an independent body observing the BBC I think it's very hard to know how to do this cos you got two things to charge you got to judge the content and then there's the regulatory side and there's there's two different halves that regulation.

I'm not sure of Commerce the complete solution it could be that passed the regulation might go do I come because the BBC should be making content that is unique and not provided by the market and Ofcom might not be the right people to judge that so I think it's a very tough one, but it is critical get it right.

I do think though the trust of not at Sean and almost certainly be replaced.

What is important is that what replaces it is much better and truly holds the BBC two accounts on a Corsa 1L is it must do is stop all this market creep.

What the BBC does is actually starts creeping into the market damaging the market doing the market as it needs to be held as a public service broadcaster producing high-quality distinctive programming.

I mean, I think everyone listening understands from that very eloquent distinction what the distinction is the public at whole though.

I think they would think if they had the been on this at all the obvious home for the regulatory body would be off, It will be really interesting to see the range of user expressed in this particular aspect over the consultation and it's holding the BBC Two account is in massively important.

I mean Ofcom approved across the range of their activities that they are able to look at public value test they are able to look at the market.

They are able to look at areas of market failure.

You know in a public service reviews so I think that those are absolutely areas of their activity.

You know I don't see any reason why why they couldn't take on board if not all of potentially much of what the BBC Trust dies at you know I don't have a particularly strong for you one way or the other I think what is important is that there is clear governance there is clear distinction as with any sort of healthy law.

Organisation you want to have an arm's-length bord na na na na PLC you've got is the ability for shareholders to come you've got all of those kinds of regulatory structures, so you don't we need to have some ability to have an objective you about what they're doing and for them to be held account and I get it goes back to the point about transparency whatever this system whoever the effectively this adult border.

There has to be a greater degree of transparency, so that a licence fee payers can see how their money is being spent and feel you know what for that for tea.

I am getting extraordinary value for money or not, but they need to have a way of making a judgement about that and also so the other stakeholders in the market can have a view about you are things being done fairly respectfully you know sensibly and I think it's going to be really really important part of what happens next ok before we take a Break let's take a look at some headlines from the local news.

Baguette Wars Tesco customers lose it after malted grain baguette or dropped famous, Lincoln Noman collection cells for just £1,000 Batman saves baby trapped in hot car.

Yes, where would we be without the local press and they reliable source of quirky news stories what radio stations are there in the country.

Nothing to fill their phones with I can tell you that for short plus tabloids would be half the size well now publish a local world has launched a website looking to monetize their stories on a national level and it is called quirky and early this week.

I met up with Steve Anglesey the brains behind it and media podcast regular Matt Kelly to find out how the idea came about I was sitting in a room leafing through local newspapers and the first thing that I saw was a guy who would build a replica of the stateroom of the Titanic in his shed the next thing I saw was a Britain's angriest dwarf who's in Hull so angry is either every month.

Here goes into the council offices in Holland defecates on the floor, so and then I turn to the next newspaper in there was a guy who was just bought a new surround sound system freeze housing you was watching The Fast and the Furious 6.

I think it was on the TV and use go that you said the guy is he was thinking this is absolutely amazing the quality of this sound is huge and then I went into the kitchen to make a cup of tea and saw that a car is driven through the front wall of his house now.

These were all in one day's newspapers and I kind of thought well if there must be something to this so maybe there's a way of aggregating our national content without doing a huge national new site and from there.

It will we evolved the idea of Quaker is a kind of thing that would compel contact the we already own photos that we already own stories that we already own, but we would spend them for a younger and social audience and was quite clear from reading the brief of the agency that you help design the

Is that this isn't a case of these stories from whole would never have reached the National or international press without you.

This is a case of actually stories tended to end up on Sky News or in The Telegraph and Argus you didn't get any renumeration for that you get any answers for that and this is a way of trying to own it when it goes national very much.

So you know we were creating these stories at great expense with a lot of a lot of talented journalists in our regional newspapers and then that the the nationals were basically coming along and eating our lunch and so we we want to we obviously want to be able to move people around on network of websites you want to be able to retain people we want to be able to extract more value from those stories that are fantastic journalists and editors create and you know maybe maybe eventually this will evolve into something a syndication modeller kind of a Barcroft thing where we can only stories and then sell them and hammered rewriting the stories is required because obviously when it in the local paper the main.

Apart from that story is that it's local when is on the national site ok people get a little thrill of reading about the time.

They grew up in but actually don't recall most renowned care where it is.

Yes, it was a considerable amount of rewriting and we try and add in some more detail and we catered many occasions we can go back to work to our colleagues in the in our regional titles and try and get more pictures and more information from them, but really we cannot they said there's a way of writing news for a tabloid audience which many of our local papers are or a mid market tabloid which many of those are in that doesn't necessarily work for a the kind of social audience that we're I mean that at so the intros only done in a different way.

There's all stuff is much more in the frame of viral viral Nova upworthy those kind of things than it is in something that is Mirror online mail online cetera et cetera Kelly we've talked on.

Media podcast before about how local journalists need to start thinking about a digital audience but the problem is if you're trying to emulate that sort of BuzzFeed is type style.

It is very different to what the primary audience reading in the paper once is there a danger that local journalist nail start writing in clickbait rather than what their primary audience wants.

Where was feeding the words clickbait always go hand in hand nothing is deeply unfair think BuzzFeed is probably in Welling my view is the best model of digital publishing in terms of how to be brilliant editorially online so I'm quite happy to take the BuzzFeed model but quakerism BuzzFeed and it's not trying to be I think there's absolutely nothing wrong in writing journalism that should be is designed to be seen by as many people as possible.

I think that's a really good motive in in terms of journalism.

I think where it becomes a problem is if people only right journalism that they think is designed to be clicked and shedding and passed around virally I think local Media does have a responsibility in the community a thing.

We lose that strata of Media in all societies we lose something really important the challenge is how do we create a model that less profitable activity is funded by the more profitable activity which is just as worthy United think there's anything bad about entertaining people as much as there is providing useful socially valuable information and what about me all the different due to websites and apps and everything else that belong to these heritage titles.

You know over the last decade you've been developing tech versions of all of these paper products have some of the digital resources now gone into this national ideas that take some of the focus away from is a report from Yorkshire courtroom question is is there a finite Resource and do we prioritise what we do with that resource then? Obviously yes, there is but by using WhatsApp so I don't say it is two different things.

I see it is part of one big converge PC NICEIC work as part as an extension of our local audience.

I see the success of worker been completely dependent on the low.

Journalist reproducing the content in the first place all we're doing is just repurposing it's like me and I think newspapers in particular a very very brilliant at creating great content that is used once in one place.

So now we're using great great content twice had very little extra cost so I think that's a different way of thinking using the dish opportunity to extend the value of our content of we were constantly with our local teams to make or the digital experience for them and their readers a lot better.

I think a great example of this is I was talking last year to a guy from Fairfax in Australia and New Zealand and they had a very sort of moribund.

Old style food and wine column that they've been running for years and years.

It didn't do anything online and I've managed to pull over into a huge separate food and wine website that rates in Uno multi millions of Australian dollars from sponsorship and from advert.

Rising it's been reborn imprint to so we think that there are much more thing many more things like that that we already generate that are beyond simply digital versions of articles.

Let's talk about that revenue thing then because they are your profits are up to 8% last year which is great obviously for a look for a local journalism business.

What do you see particularly great for a local journalism business condescendingly opportunity as I said earlier.

It's coming towards local you know if you think of that.

There is become a cliche know about local mobile social but we are a third of that equation and we have this great advantage in we have a geographical niche already defined for us.

We don't have to reach for it the other Bristol post means something incredibly powerful to people who live in Bristol ok.

That's a great starting point is not great news as perfect expected in we all think like a journalism.

What is the metric of success for this new website is it about more money or is it about shareability? I mean obviously both but if you have to pick one of the other it you measuring how many tweets you get or you measure? How much money is going to me are everything is it is a means to an end and the end.

Is is a profitable business quite clearly and Quirk has been designed to be profitable.

Look to you that awful phrase Polo profit on day one but it's as close as you can get to that because the cost basis so extraordinarily low because we are merely recycling contact not already been created so the audience is obviously a goal because we need an audience to make revenue but it's very clearly a revenue generating business and I firmly believe that it will be a very profitable one before the end of the year.

You know I saw a lot of the institutional learning that we did at trinity mirror when we launched things like us vs.

Them and amps which ultimately no longer exists but the institutional learning data.

The way we were able to launch things quickly the way we were they able to optimise things for sharing the way that we were able to attract audiences that we didn't previously attract with with Mirror Online which I was running and then before that mattered been running those were really really valuable things that we all learnt at a senior level and they inform what we doing here to what interesting is that it is not predictable and it's not predictable.

What will go viral but what is predictable is the categories of content that have a stronger chance of going viral than other categories so quirky has an Analytics model built into it where we are analysing successful types of story based on the tagging of the content and we going to do more of those successful types of story and less of the ones that don't fly and always always always we are constantly surprised by how ignorant we are as journalists and that old gut Instinct about this is a cracking story actually isn't and you know we can sit there blaming the readers for not understanding.

This is a great story as long as we like or we can look at the data and giving more of what they want Matt Kelly digital director of local world well, Paul and Laura are still with me and time for some news in brief the radio rumour mill imagine that thing is full of speculation about the return of Chris Moyles to the airwaves popbitch have hinted for a while now that he's about to join XFM replacing John Holmes on breakfast economy.

Need to get down to business efficiency less clear Middleton everyone else is shouted listen.

Twitter clarity behind the headlines subscribe to the Financial Times visit ft.com the BBC Earth podcast Returns as soon as I was airborne.

It was just a totally stunning landscape amazing swirling colours.

We'll be taking you on a journey from our beautiful, but changing environments here on earth beautiful storms lightning strikes every second eating less explored corners of the Universe up above the sulphuric acid clouds and even if you could walk around in your T-shirt open your ears and subscribe wherever you get your podcast on Apple and being very careful with this is an employee of local radio not to say anything other than what is being reported everywhere, but it has been reported that the studios are being refurbished at the moment.

Do you think miles is coming you think there's going to be on a makeover.

Yes, I think he is and I think it's great news me Miles have been off the air since 2012 so great to have him back.

Breakfast this is natural home is brilliant at it and XFM as a brand it's the one brand global haven't really investing so farming heart classic LBC capital smoothie Netflix on all those accidentally left in the background know whether it's renamed capital of rocks or no.

That's why I might take a few that's not mess with the right thing to do because capital is clearly a very mainstream Brand and Exeter was always a bit alternative and another choice to a compared to 6 Music and had a difference of attitude bigger playlist and a bit more and anarchic approach to be very stinky miles is allowed to talk as much mean.

He is a brilliant speech broadcast to Armina Radio 1.

He was playing in a 4 records an hour and getting amazing ratings know whether global allow him to do that having its communist in question, but I do hope he's back and I share Greg James his former colleague radio once in Fusey Azam miles needs to be on the radio and we need Moyles

He was the Great White Hope wasn't if someone that might be able to make it work doing a stand-alone app or might be able to create satellite radio in this country and some observers have said well.

You know she's taking a breakfast show it's in a way out in a bit disappointing considering what he could have done it in in in anniversary way, I guess I probably would say to you think so firstly.

I would be so delighted to have Christmas back on the radio and I think everyone would be and I think radio is what millions and millions of people listen to radio is what they come to maybe he can do an app along the side and maybe this would be the perfect platform to launch something from but I think it also shows us that we talked so much about as it were new media and whether that's Netflix taking over the world or this apple that happened the power of online but actually people still come to traditional Media in their watch television and their Legion horde and they read newspapers and they listen to the radio and they do all the other things as well but

What instead and I think we're coming back might be recognising that but I really hope it's true.

It's true.

It's going to be here to say nothing I can say about this is going to get a bigger audience isn't allowed to speak.

I think it definitely would be because you know if it's just Records played in a row while you know it might be but I think people would really well coming back with open arms.

He's been sorely missed and he creates competition in the mornings and I think you would love to him back.

He's just a fantastic personality when using capital have more freedom mean actually talk a lot so I think that Sir Richard park, and the guys at global of smart enough to realise that his act and I'll let him have some free time.

I imagine program director of many years ago.

Yeah, Chiltern radio Aire capital radio before Radio 1.

So he's a commercial radio guy understands that works ok another heritage brand now the enemy.

They can go free in September no room here.

This is been confirm the magazine have dropped in sales from 75000 decade ago to just 15000 in recent figures going three domains.

They're going to distribute 300000 copies to universities and stations + 17 B warehouses and squats at nor is this a good move the enemy going through it's probably only make make him in 15000 copies is absolutely minuscule and they still I think they still have a huge influence and I think you know it's a brand that has huge resonance but you know if you decline any further than that use of cease being relevant.

Where is it? They give it out free and they can probably attract a new audience who expect to get things for free nowadays, then you know I think they could build it back up again because it has got an incredibly powerful brand exactly that brand resonates with bands and with labels, but it needs to get more advertising and it needs to get more people young people thinking that it's relevant your report.

I was very anti timeout going through.

Ranting about on this show at the time because I was a subscriber to time out and I recognise they were gonna lose a lot of premium content nodes painful.

I'm not a reader of enemy but I am someone who values that brand like you're saying I'm feeling Paris going to meet but I pick it up for free and see what the kids are into.

I think this could actually be success.

I do too.

I think the models changed expectation now.

Is that you get the publication free and the money is made via advertising a look at timeout.

Look at the London Evening Standard because other regional papers where the distributed free.

That's a model.

I mean clearly of enemy can get 300000 copies out and therefore about a million readers.

They can chat a lot more for the Anthony 115000 that will secure the future and I agree with Laura I grew up with the enemy I could have Personal affection for it.

It's always been a really important voice in music and he want that boy so they can reinvent in the digital world using a new business model good likes them.

I think is a great move.

Will it actually appeal to what is traditionally varied needs to find any audience.

I said I create I mean.

I hope it will find any audience who coming for the different makes of bands and I think the enemy will do something similar it is about the bands that they have it's about their presents at gigs and it's about this have continued relevance to that new generation XIV XV XVI year olds are there any dangers the or away after I was going through of the advertising only model must more risk.

I mean a cover price is no number of copies sold time to cover pricing that revenue is guaranteed advertising you go to suit every months.

You know your continued chasing target.

So it's about risk will advertisers by into it and will it get the rights of audience is gonna deliver an audience that is unique if it's just delivering keep looking neighbours house where advertisers won't support it, so it's got a delivery unique voice and unique audience in if it does it be fine.

That's the risk ok quick mention of the New York Times now, but this is a London

Story as well bizarrely, you may remember that it is beefed up its Bureau in the capital recently to around 100 staff are well in an interview with the press Gazette the nyt international president Stephen Dunbar Johnson play down that increase.

He said they're not looking to compete with local Media but to cover Europe for their readers poll.

That's a completely different strategy explained that way at what the myelin the gardener doing for example over in the US for the wool over a new American audience thinks I live I don't I think that we should remember that we think about the of the structure of the world now in America result of off on a limb because you've got the Middle East coming out this massive investment there China is stronger so actually London is actually now really in the middle of the world and it's a great place to base yourself in London is gone even cool image that had 10 years ago this country is very strong.

It's seen as being a hub for Europe it's a natural place to base your operation.

So I think it's true.

I think he's

I really try and build it International Business that happens to be in London and London is the centre of politics of culture of art of business.

It's a natural place to be so I know I think he saying the truth and I think it's a very bold but I think could well pay off but he says just for a domestic audience really the people who already know what the New York Times is Anna engaged with it.

Is that a bit blinkered Laura I'm if you had a big international brand like that when you want to make it international truly International by building your overseas HQ international city and it I think you know and everything else of survey that comes up it is it keeps coming up as the international city and the City of choice for a multinational companies to base themselves in we've also got fantastic journalist here with considerable training and you know really pretty great education so all round that makes a lot of sense.

I mean yeah.

I think you do see that then York Times is expanding I certainly much more aware of.

On social media and online platforms that I used to be so I think they are probably our kind of building their presents bottom just as every other global Media brand is really well, the hunt is on for a new political editor at the BBC and in the meantime you all we can do is wait after Nick Robinson is moving to the Today programme on Radio 4 replacing James Naughtie advertise peanut bit of a stink over the whole recruitment process hasn't there with their complaint to the nuj over so cold cappuccino interviews for the big gigs are there is actually a page for political editor on the BBC's Careers website, but it seems you can only get in if you have the link at Laura it's not particularly open or transparent.

This is it didn't seem to be that you know I would slightly suspend my judgement because you rushing and then you find out that these things aren't necessarily as straightforward as first seems when you're reading further into the story.

There's quite a lot of positions that have been made redundant and therefore positions have been had to be no.

Internally that could be offered at Stoneleigh etc.

I mean if it is the case that it's been a cappuccino set up then.

I think that would be a great shame.

I would hope it isn't I mean as an industry television has a pretty abysmal record in doing this across-the-board certainly not just the BBC I'd say probably every broadcast and probably most Indies and it's something which culturally we've all got to change and everyone knows we do because we're not going to become more diverse.

We're not going to have better recruitment practices unless we follow what other Industries do is absolutely standard and have proper straightforward transparent into processes.

Generally speaking out.

So they probably the BBC is probably one of the better ones but as an industry.

We've all got to become much much better at HR recruitment.

I mean when you're working your way up in tellys if you get any of those job through application process.

I didn't I waiting TV for 5-6 years every single one of those is a cappuccino meeting a son description formerly advertised but no mostly it's

Finding out on the Grapevine that there was a job and banging off my CV and I think most jobs don't get advertised and I think we need to kind of changes in industry to a place where most jobs are advertised or we will remain as people's keep saying unit hideously white horrendously middle class and we will never attract all that brilliant Talent that out there but the commission is not commissioning things that are very very last moment seem like you've got to give this to me next Friday because that's what encourages people to go on Facebook as a right who's good.

I need someone good.

There is a deadline structure to our industry.

That's never going to really change its its last minute so we've got to find a way of working more transparently in a last-minute culture because the last minute this is never going to change letters if I'm sure that will be very well considered pool.

Who would you give the job to who do you think is right to be the next Nick Robinson I can't think she is someone interesting and they've done deep and they found somewhere.

Maybe we haven't thought of this jobs always had personalities like remember back to John golden bridge on cold most of the most amazing delivery and it didn't get in the way and Nick Robinson to is also he's fine.

He's very clever with words and he's very sort of stylish in the way presents the analysis I think it's a very important job.

So I hope there's someone who actually knows he does come from a different background who can bring a different perspective can still give very good reporting for the BBC and I hope maybe the cappuccino moments might have been a bit of additional recruiting that might have added to those who might otherwise not replied if someone's been interviewed over cappuccino and encouraged to apply to divert more diversity to the other Candice that's a good thing any Favourite James Naughtie moments James Naughtie can't tell the time always gets the time wrong way.

I'm trying to find the right before we go.

There is just time thank God for the media quiz this week the Year quiz.

Is entitled whose idea was that? I'm going to give you an announcement that seemed to be a reality and you tell me whose idea was that best of three buzzing with your name the winner gets Horseferry Road the loser gets Isleworth question number one a £200 fee for an interview on the beach whose idea was that?

Astonishing ignorance well, it was the Brighton and Hove city council.

That's whose idea it was this is the story did you see this that they changed the Guardian £200 to conduct an audio interview on the beach.

I'm going to book my Thameslink ticket go down there tomorrow.

It's a bit weird, but we should charge it and then I got you some of this is news content is not appropriate.

I get charged.

There's kind of filming fees all the time.

I don't see why newspapers shouldn't have to pay them.

What's so great about them with news aggregation rather than the money at the money back in the end and how I remember this story, but there is often a distinction drawn between a wee newspapers.

We can do it one way and telly has to do it all by the rules ok to questions left work now.

It's all to play for Heroes question number to Strictly Come Dancing who's idea was that Laura it wasn't my idea at all.

Well, if you want me, whose idea, it was this clearly a whole team responsible, but there's been a big controversy going on about this.

You know the main thing.

Is is that it was a huge team effort and senior hasn't he saying she said it was that my idea and all I got was chocolates and champagne and when go because no no more rubbish.

Yes, that's right Phoenix was the producer prices in the Sunday Times saying it was her idea then Wayne garvie, right in and said that the Lions share should be given to big breath Richard Hopkins Karen Smith Amanda Wilson and Jane lush as a team effort champagne popping income from Lucy's Brian you know what that's difficult because you provided the initial answer Laura but you did have the detail their paws.

I'm going to call Dad at 1 each which does make questions 3A very exciting moment here.

It is BBC local radio will place more emphasis on personalities and less on news whose idea was that poor? This is David Holdsworth who has the

Norris title of controller England director he controls a BBC local radio apart from the National regions and abuse local reddy's been losing audience very badly in the last couple of years and so he's now saying we're going to do less news we can actually have more engagement.

We're gonna come or companionship.

So he's told all the presenters.

You have been more companion ball and he got a relate to people and they do lessons and across the reason for this is people don't know that BBC local radio doesn't sit in the BBC Radio division it sits in the BBC News division and psychosis driven by what story is it carries? Not whether it's a radio station serving people and David sang give now.

Give me more radio station and serve your community and its audiences old isn't it? I mean you know the young side of your audiences 5270 and of course.

They're gonna spend longer listening to the radio is going to be more of a companion then someone who's out working or at somebody listening.

What are very important audience because Radio 2 Radio 2 who's gone it's just the tone your voice.

I just don't think they're all day.

I'm so we'll get there sometimes.

I am a big fan of.

The pain is gone radiators gone younger so really and commercial Raider doesn't really serve at all is because there's no advertising market there so BBC local radio is the place for people over 55 plus and correlative 6570.

So you know it's very important are properly served there still licence for your pay as you know and they should get a service you know what's gonna happen or if I put too much extra content in too much companionship lessons I get more listeners, then they might actually be more popular than we back to the beginning of the podcast again should people be entertained trying to actually write that means that Paul you are the winner of the quiz congratulate share the champagne and chocolates will be coming shortly gracious of you.

Otherwise I find debut from Laura Mansfield thank you.

Thank you for having me we are taking a break for the next month partly for the holidays, but mostly for fundraising if your company is interested in advertising to the wider Media industry.

When do get in touch with this at similarly if you would like to support the show just as a listener and you like the idea of having a future edition of The Show dedicated to you you can just go to the media podcast dot.com / dedicate.

That's what Gareth Close did and that's why today's show is dedicated to Gary who is still drawing computer stuff on whiteboards for media companies if you'd like to support the podcast in the future, then go to the media podcast dot.com / dedicate.

Thank you very very much.

I've been Ollie man the producer Matt Hill the media podcast is a PPM production until we meet again, but I

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