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Read this: #9 - Scotland debate update, Company magazine closes, Edinburgh preview

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#9 - Scotland debate update, Company mag…

Hello and welcome to the media podcast by Molly man on today's show as details emerge of the second televised debate on Scottish independence will discuss how the UK media have handled the issue so far and what might be in store for Scottish Indies next year also on the show the latest magazine circulation figures are out with poor over the big winners and losers, + how did the media report sensitive issues such as suicide how can publishers take advertisers money and keep editorial control and what setting should you go to at the Guardian Edinburgh International TV Festival next week all of those questions and more answered on today's Media podcast audio joining me in Soho this week is Steve Ackerman managing director of content company something else and making his debut on the media podcast it's the news editor of broadcast magazine Jake kanter big event for you.

Jake I imagine you can building up to this your whole career.

It's been a long time coming that's all I can say now.

I'm joking.

It's it's a bit older to be on quite right and what else have you been up to this week? I've just back from holiday, so we entered the media world and the tumbleweed is almost palpable having it is feels like silly season so much so that the Times ran a front-page story this week about the BBC collecting licence fee revenue sending out about 100000 hours a day and I'm sort of light will the BBC's entitled to go after what it said I think so, it was a bit of an old one.

I thought doesn't seem like the kind of thing the Times Winterstoke up anytime they see people singing the Terry bizarre Steve what have you been up to hello? Hello? It's type season 2 absolutely B42 Edinburgh Festival particularly cos when Michael is Kirstie's been on the organising committee, so we can figure out some of the hospitality arrangements.

You might do that and then the radio festival comes very quickly in October as well, so

Also looking at the Rangers we're gonna do around that.

Do you recognise this depiction that Jack paints of the tumbleweed blowing past there in August everyone's accounts.

No one's around things don't get commissions.

All I can say is my bags are packed.

I'm flying on Saturday I'm sorry about that.

Lovely way to wear to January carry on cos we're going somewhere with this.

Where are there? I don't know Spain Portugal daddy.

Where are you going to delete all day? We have you ever managed to get a commission away in an Italian business cards with me as ever Steve Ackerman on the equivalent of the Rothschild yacht.

I suppose but in the TV world OK well.

Let's talk about her some of the proper news now and let's start with the news that the BBC R2 broadcast the second Life debate between Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond and better together campaign chairman Alistair Darling it's going to be screened live on BBC One Scotland and to the rest of the UK

Play on BBC2 bizarrely on the 25th of August that's the bank holiday Monday at Steve this makes sense doesn't it? But it can be broadcast around the rest of the UK because the first debate was seen by just under 2 million on STV but if you wanted to sit in the rest of the UK as a bit of difficulty it did seem a little bit bizarre that the broadcast was limited to that and you heard all the time on places like five like this other slightly awkward thing when they were debating the head of the Debate when I will talk about it saying I will be other ways you can watch it elsewhere in the UK sort of things so if you hold a mirror mirror window that might be pointing at Edinburgh Public Service broadcaster at this is this is probably the key political debating point this year, so good to see that happening though, whether I'll be tuning in from Tuscany I doubt that's going to happen.

Can't quite believe that STV and ITV one able to come to some sort of agreement whereby ITV was able to show at the Debate now.

I don't know I am not close to this.

Maybe ITV chose not to do that in which case I think it's a massive miss.

Options if I mean of course STV did Show online on STV Player which was accessible here in the UK but they obviously had these issues with the with the player and this week therefore rather spineless Lee blames their technology supplier.

I think in a very public apology and it's all slightly odd.

I think everyone's trying to cover their backs a little bit.

Yeah, you do one was going on behind it does seem to me that someone underestimated the interest around the rest of England and Wales and Northern Ireland into what is a massive issue.

Whether you get vote on it or not and you like the theatre.

If you don't want to see how they did that is actually I think when you looking at streaming events.

Obviously you've you've got to allow through enough people to go to access the feed and clearly that didn't happen on this occasion, which I really would Michael from a broadcast on if that had happened from maybe someone who runs in underlay British Fashion Week or the Brits or people who aren't you know broadcasters in their DNA you'd understand that but but this was this was a Broadcasting Company who undressed.

Which does Sim extraordinary how many part of the network ITV which obviously was the historic first home of the TV debate between the prime minister's wanted that you think they want to develop that as well and Jake in the latest issue of our magazine.

I think it's called broadcast or something.

There's a report on the issues facing TV Indies in Scotland if there's going to be a furminator broken.

We've done quite a reasonably extensive piece of work over the past few weeks talking to all the major Scottish production companies with spoken to about 20 of the 30 pack registered in these and other influential figures.

Just to get a sense of how they see the referendum playing out for their business a lot of them are upbeat about the potential upsides for the yes vote if the yes boat comes off not least the potential for additional funding but what is clear is there is a cloud of uncertainty many believe there.

Be delays between 18 months and 2 years where decisions get back.

Lol too because there are so many unanswered questions about what it will mean specifically for the BBC and Steve have you thought about that as you know? It's only works with big indie what you do in the event of a yes vote.

Do you set up a Scottish version of your offer something if you had that discussion.

I think we've been here before with regional quotas that sort of thing as you know many and is either did or looked at setting up.

You know basis in the north or in the world or universe bits of the country.

It's only for us.

It's not something.

It's really on the agenda.

Also in terms of the scale of real super and is I'll be really surprised if if that really was something it was seen as a business imperative for most another magazine which is going digital only this time.

It's company the younger sibling of Cosmo launched in 1978 owned by Hearst Magazines UK according to press Gazette during its last ABCs for the

6 months to the end of 2013 it had sales of just over 88018 years ago that number was 330000 at its October edition will be its last that released on the 5th of September if you want to go and get that is storage issue at Steve another brand going online only this one's aimed at 16 to 24 year old women so what does it stand a chance you think not really you know I think it's sadly unsurprising that this is happening and I think we'll be seeing this with a number of publications and clear the enemy has also had some pretty poor numbers this week, which which maybe we'll come to chat about a minute or two but you never difficulty for print publications when they're competing against against the online world is what's a USP what do they have that can't be accessed for free online and it is that old adage.

You can't compete against free for some magazines like company.

I think you really struggle to understand.

What is it that they're really offering that's unique and that's really what I think those number SE2

Because if they're only a 16 to 24 demographic will there is plenty of stuff you can get online that really is of the Elk of company and so what are their chances for Success going forward? I wouldn't want to bet on on a positive result there, but maybe this is to do with the age group that targeting as well because of the other end of the women's market good Housekeeping is now the number one women's lifestyle title performing slightly better than glamour in both print and digital sales for the first time.

They may be a better off targeting older readers if you want to have a print business still running as well the digital age and I think you have to look at publications like The Economist to have done it brilliantly in terms of not having their the written word version but coming up with video audio other things that play off their Brand and retain the loti of what was a reader and I think actually I'm in some Like The Economist is an interesting example because if you read about their strategy, what they talk about is the fact that they identify people with giving up subscription because

Didn't have time anymore to read the magazine and yet, they valued it and so what do The Economist do they started creating all sorts of different versions of the magazine? You know allowing people to hear it to to watch it in a contract with indifference to retain that Lucy and I think that's really a similar challenge at someone like company.

Has you know you'll you'll no longer can just see yourself as transferring the written word to the screen.

You've got to identify all the different ways in which you can reach that same audience and I'll see therefore deliver numbers for the Advertiser and Jake have those kind of conversations go inside broadcast.

Have you got a podcast now which you host so I hear and also you know you have video content as well and your website.

I mean, how do you discuss moving forward with that still seem very much as a print title number one but obviously people get their news from you online.

I guess this is something we discuss every single day and with each story right.

We try to figure out the best way to present the information bid online or in the magazine which would produce every week.

I don't.

Yeah, we always get it right but sometimes we do and an actor of creative tension is part of our everyday editorial conversation and I'm in for someone who loves print journalism.

It's always sad when you see a magazine clothes and I am in a little crown the the company website today and although I'm not the target audience it didn't feel particularly different all you need to know in what it was doing.

It was very BuzzFeed like there was lot of listicles, which we we we might talk about BuzzFeed later.

I'm not sure it's such a crowded market space as well.

I mean where does 16 to 24 year old girls get go to get their news.

I'd wager a large portion of them are on the Mail website.

I'm in Stevenage The Economist have you got a brand that you'd like to pick out the using has actually made the transition very well as well from and you're not allowed to mention broadcast from the traditional print version to even pants are payables model like yourself or A3 model online who else is doing it.


Do you think I don't think we can sit here at the moment so that anyone?

Got it right specifically certainly I'd I would struggle to name someone and I think everyone is sort of feeling their way around this and trying to find a sustainable model that will work online.

I don't think that point yet.

I think I will become clear until 3 years time but not all bad news for these ABC circulation figures as Lois saying good Housekeeping and glamour actually although the fight for the top spot both getting around 400000 combined sales per month in print and digital imprint isn't that is known as it is still healthy and I mean there's new magazines launching all the time only recently Mike Ashley who owns Sports Direct and is the owner of Newcastle launch there a magazine called sports Trevor and I think it's doing reasonably well, so yeah this still an appetite for print definitely but Steve you mentioned in a me.

I think they got less than 15000 sales in print.

I know that Web sites doing well, but if you were running now.

It's time to put the magazine out of its misery isn't it the same thing unfortunately?

Is that if you're a musical passive which is the sort of person who's going to buy anime? There are whole stack of websites you can go to not only to read about stuff that I take part in the conversation.

You know if you're passionate about something.

I just want to be fed information.

You know the new interactive range gives you the chance to be right at the heart of the conversation with with the people who may be more knowledgeable or or who are who are providing opinion or tastemaker guidance to you say again.

It's no real surprise.

I mean I think it's not necessarily about is Prince dead.

It's just that old adage that you know the content has to be strong enough and I think something is overdue Saturday with doing well had particular niches and when we think about broadcast ill.

See you in a you hold a particular niche and therefore the ability to have a payroll same obviously for the Financial Times you know you've got to have an initial reason for the audience to really want what it is.

You're providing and I think when we look at some examples that you meant it today who was struggling.

They don't have that case why I like to think we are the tastemakers when it comes to media opinion and

Will have more of that conversation in Chester say this episode of the media podcast is brought to you by squarespace and what is squarespace why it's the all-in-one platform that makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website portfolio and online store media podcast listeners can get a free trial and 10% off by entering the made up word mediapad at the Checkout but how does it work? I hear you ask.


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Let's tackle some other stories now and of course there have been many reports articles and opinion this week about the death of comedian and actor Robin Williams a few of them touching on the medias response to the coverage some like the academic Douglas Chalmers writing for the Drum criticise papers including the sun the mirror and the mail for their lurid detail sometimes in bullet point headlines.

He says they run the risk of bringing about copycat actions by individuals who perhaps may feel seriously depressed or have mental health issues at Jake there are clear guidelines for reporting suicide.

Do you think some of our publications that you mention is there actually cross that line that mean they really clear guidelines for television ofcom's pretty much don't do it.

Don't at least don't detail the method of suicide obviously with the printer press.

It's a bit more relaxed although the Samaritans do have some guidance which they've actually.

Republish this weekend it was doing the rounds on Twitter are being the guidance is really clear and it is said things like be mindful that celebrity suicides.

Have a higher risk of encouraging copycat behaviour particularly if the media coverage is extensive and sensationalist avoids explicit details of the suicide methods do not portray suicide as quick effective painless or easy and I was looking at the sun front page the day after Robin Williams is death and I think the sun pre-match broke all of those guidelines and the Christie's of my guess is you know this wasn't a quick reaction because we got the news that he was dead At Midnight that actually all of the papers the following morning didn't have the story at all.

They had 24hrs almost to get their act together.

It's not as if you could say it was the junior Foot Soldiers you know he just rushed out front page.

This is considered that page and all of the tabloids.

Did you think they went too far or do you think actually it is Justified to put this on the front page and to speculate about the Motives behind his suicide because it's such a huge story and effect.

That's what their defence is Justified to put on the front page because it was it was a massive story but but what why why we surprised that the titles you mentioned behave the way they have never seen is dead.

So why we surprised is not surprising is the question is it going to change the answer is probably no and the answer to that the reason for that sorry is it sells newspapers and as long as it continues to sell newspapers proprietors and not going to be too bothered about breaking some guidelines of the Samaritans upset out.

This is in the same week Frank Maloney and his story has revealed that actually the reason that the story was in the Sunday Mirror was because to other titles has doorstep not only him but his family it's kind of the same thing which is the pressure reverting or some of the pressure reverting back to type having for a year or to make sure they were really behaving themselves whilst Leveson was taking place and whilst we did by definition is the possibility of

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Helps you avoid these lies search which for impartial product reviews which keep questioning know what was going to.

I'm out of that now that they know they've pretty much got their own way with writing back to type.

I understand the argument of very passionate on the side of those who work in mental health because they'll say to media organisations that you actually have blood in your hands if you do this, we have evidence that people copycat what they see and read but I also see that if the regulations were drawn up a while ago and we are now living in an age.

Where people spent the whole day on Twitter and Facebook talking about this openly.

It would be a bit bizarre for the papers not reflect some of that conversation wouldn't it? Isn't that if you're any form of me to organisational outlet you do have a responsibility however wrapping wheels in to be an agreement of see that the papers were have every right to publish about the story and and actually probably go into detail about the story.

It's just the way that that's manage that that is probably the talking point hear one thing I am impressed by the level did seem to do if they all did publish numbers for minding this marathon is next the articles and that something that they seem to pay attention to you, but that seemed to them underline the fact their chosen to disregard some of the other.

Rules regarding the detailed methodology in so I'm ok.

Well another tightrope has also been walked by The Guardian this week over its decision to accept an advert critical of Hamas in Gaza in Mondays print edition at according to the Guardians John plunkett the times has refused the same advert in the previous week as it was too strong and would cause concern amongst its readers Steve the Guardians not the first paper to take out money from sources that might confuse their editorial position are the telegraph have for example had a regular supplement paid for by the Russian government.

I'm so good that made make the journalist at these papers feel pretty uncomfortable, but this one seems to be new ground in breakspear.

So why the fuss I mean, this is a really difficult she wasn't it? And I think when you get into politics.

This is probably one of the most difficult issues because everybody has an opinion and it's a very passionate subject and it's it's kind of tidying to the same to a similar theme I suppose a couple years ago when the previous War

I took place between israelis and Hamas when the BBC didn't run the ddc appeal kind of a similar debate about you know is it getting to political should you should you like this ultimately the Guardian obviously entitled to run an advert.

It doesn't actually say anything about their editorial line and if you read the Guardian you'll know that because they've certainly put across both sides and he was there when you getting an issue right because many of the Jewish community would say there to bias towards the Palestinians and many in the Palestinian community would say I was older to gentle one on the Israel so so it's a difficult issue.

I personally I dont see the problem in I think I think there's an Advertiser who's advertising about something that's that's quite valid.

I think it's ok mean in the same like they would accept her and I think the other side so was quite interesting.

Isn't it? Because if you were picking media Brands that would accept a kind of pro-israel advert rather than perhaps a pro-palestinian advert.

Dino stereotypically you think it would be the time that would be more easier going about the pro Israeli advert than the Guardian but I'm protected it.

Yeah, so I mean it is very difficult tightrope for all these companies to walk I'd like to sit on the fence a little bit on this one.

I really question I would ask a guardian is was the money they made from running at advert worth the risk of creating questions about the editorial integrity.

I guess the answer to that is it depends on whether it's clearly delineated as an advert, isn't it? Which is what Steve was saying is especially looking at the Guardians editorial stance if they have turned that advert away imagine the new story.

It's almost impossible isn't it to really come up with them with the right answer? I think I don't envy the Guardian let's try and make this decision as to make decisions about covering this this conflict.

You look at the way the broadcasters come out whenever I see coverage on television, I think.

It's very fair and balanced, but they've been processed outside the BBC and it's such a thorny issue to get right the general rule of thumb whenever you hear reporters talking about this this sort of thing but that when they say you've you've pissed off both sides.

You've usually got the story right for me.

I know in my LBC inbox if I have equal 50% either side calling me either a member of the Zionist delete or educated and I've got it about write a similar advert from the Palestinian side promoting that debate then.

I think you can say ok.

This is right it it if it's an uneven handed approach and that's a different thing but I don't think that's probably the case with the garden and what about when oversizing isn't obviously advertising day because we are moving to this world now with native advertising comedian.

John Oliver him again used is HBO show on Sunday to talk about this at which has itself gone viral.

He was protesting.

This new way that advertisers pay for editorial content and how do you react to what he was saying I did watch the video and he did make clear that stars in quite privileged position because he makes all his money through subscription, but I'm not entirely sure what I think about this issue, because it my mind it's been around for a long time.

I mean broadcasters do Advertiser funded programming we are broadcast run advertorials in a magazine.

You know that you could argue.

There are grey areas there.

So I think it's in it's just the next evolution of that be honest that the likes of BuzzFeed coming in and doing it in their way and that's one of the things that makes those company successful, isn't it the fact that they can in in bed advertising it doesn't feel like advertising that's part of the New Frontier and yeah, it's also concerning when you look at the model like The Guardian switch this phrase native advertising because as a company who work a lot with brands creating content with brands, and this is a space that is very fast growing.

There is actually a big difference between a piece of branded content on TV which which ostensibly is editorial Edge have you think of my cat like about a Red Bull show featuring you know one of their Flying events.

That's an editorial program, but it also has a relationship with red brick might have a relationship to their brand values or it might display something about the brand.

They want to come a bit in effect as an editorial.

You know has any toilet worth to it when we talk about native advertising your right Jake ineffective been around for ages and it's what we used to go advertorials and that's very different because that doesn't necessarily have auditory work that something that from an editorial standpoint is being at really you lead by the needs of the brand rather than the needs of the audience and I think there's a there's a desert there's a big point of difference there and this is where the content debate for Brands is on heating up because on the one hand you've got some fantastic content on YouTube and audio content and written content that has strong editorial worth putting on the other side you have what's now been called native advertising which

Is always been called advertorial and that's not the same thing I think the points Oliver makes is absolutely right actually in terms of it.

You know the point of Native advertising as it attempts to intentionally blur the lines so that the reader thinks they are getting something of editorial work.

It's interesting about him and I went on BuzzFeed today and there was a piece as sponsored by NatWest and I thought actually I can quite clearly see the NatWest logo there and I'm sure but she would argue that if that piece of content generates a good number of clicks and is shared a lot then they've given their audience a good piece of content and make money out of it was astonishing is that people will actually click and reason enjoying article that's called you know 12 ways the new NatWest current account is awesome, but if you hear it out the way that's entertaining.

They will know maybe the audience is complicit in that goes back to Steve's point if if it's editorially let it an engaging and interesting than does it matter if the content is.

Is right the Audit the orders ultimately will make the decision about how they feel about content and I understand the difficult thing with native advertising that I think what was him with lot of major advertising is it's not actually something your audience desires or that they showing An Appetite for your audience will ultimately decide that advertises right or produce the content themselves rather than a big and editorial lead piece of work.

I think that I think that's whether that's when you run into trouble well next week is of course.

They're not at all advertorial a titled guardian, Edinburgh International television festival at the media podcast will be there to cover the event so we thought we'd in this week with our pick of the sessions to attend Steve you got the program in front of you, but you're not going what could possibly low you out of your Tuscan Villa

How it integrates lots of the potential that digital and gaming and interactivity offers concessions would be would be very interesting like how do you do digital I notice as well that there are some sections relating really what we just been debating so you know the rise of the admin and and then I know where where the brands fit into this into this spectrum and this and this debate and then I think everything's going to use me as some of the sessions around Talent because year by year the power of Talent is growing and getting I you know I think for all broadcast is that is that is becoming of a difficult issue over where the power actually lies is with the broadcaster with the talent.

I will definitely be attending the not at all backslapping session is TV the new film backslapping Jake you're going to be there as well covering the event for broadcast top picks from you are well.

I mean clearly they might Taggart is is the big one it tends to set the time for the whole Festival this year.

It's Channel 4 chief, exec.

David Abraham I mean we've had a couple of I would argue from my point of view from a business point of view that we've had a couple of fellow years Kevin Spacey was great it creatively and you gave delivered a fantastic speech about coming here about coming here about wasn't ever get his about I think they will really get into some issues for the industry one of which being that the fact that channel 4 is going to get a bit tougher with at some of its suppliers suppliers that particularly or large production companies owned by foreign Giants effectively and the fact that Apple doesn't it doesn't think that money that it offers for Commission should be going outside the UK creative economy and aside from that.

I am an unashamedly.

Instant Game of Thrones Geek and there will be a big Game of Thrones session where we've been promised and special guests presumably some of the actors from the show and all the commissioners will fight to the death if you are listening is Jake from broadcasting as you're not meeting it's not it's time for the media quiz.

Thank God three questions one creme egg this time.

It's stat attack.

I'm gonna give you a statistic from the week's media news you tell me what story it relates to its that number 11 and 10 households use which digital Media service status net Flix correct surprise not really 3 million households use Netflix in the past year and meaning of there's more than one in ten now using it According to Bob amenities as they won't released.

Is there a good source of information I said not really is because when you think about the amount of streaming services and that there is no doubt that the brakes has now been made in the transfer from DVD consumption to streaming consumption.

Is it a surprise that one in ten are taking a service from one of the biggest providers for now and is more than that isn't it? Is that they are the brand it sums up their the hoover you know people say Netflix I think even if they're watching actually NOW TV or Amazon Prime when I want watching Amazon prime TV for Netflix and constantly looking Everett shoulder at what what Netflix is doing and I think it's only gonna get bigger as well and they started commission content here in the UK they got a massive order in with a company called left back pictures where they're going to do this huge biopic on the Queen were all issues that I think Kevin Spacey covered isn't in his ceramic target selection last year which is labelled light.

15% fall in what over 12 months radiator people households correct radiotoday reporting sales and dab Setzer fallen this year now Steve this is the first time DAB as followed the analogue trend is that a problem or is it actually about people buy mobiles and tablets and I can listen to radio there think it depends on consumption patterns, because the amount of of the population is listening has not massively changed over over the past few years though.

I know the hours are are down.

So it's really about what happened at what are the devices of people listening on if they are if they're not thinking clearly.

This is an issue.

Ok? This is very exciting moment cos we've only got a third question and we are at the moment.

So here goes that number 3 it's worth 3 times more than the Washington Post yes Jake BuzzFeed

The answer that correct BuzzFeed has received 50 million dollars in new funding which values the business at 850 million much more than Jeff bezos paid for the Washington Post last year, is it worth it you think I would certainly shakes off its sort of Cats on skateboards image.

I don't know what I'm not entirely convinced by party like it's in my mind.

It's a bit like going to the zoo.

I think ironic ThunderCats on skateboards thing you go there you see lots of exotic things.

It's really holds your attention, but when you leave it's always completely forgettable and every visit seems to sort meld into one memory that's my that's my view of BuzzFeed what is why I think you write them off because they've got deep pockets.

I sent you know of one that said very respectable journalist who was Lord there by a very good pay packet and options.

I think I might send them now got 15 foreign, Correspondents

I think I start of the UK may be working working for them and it seems to me the strategy is they've started from a place where they just need to get numbers in and now they will start to morph into something for more sophisticated service and look there's no doubt we'll know there's some newspaper world at all.

The news reporting world is in Revolution and turmoil maybe this is the this is the story that's going to emerge to it.

This is this is the brand that's going to imagine probably service after Millie stepping up their serious journalism efforts are also I mean they've got this guy called Frankie video and they've just appointed.

I think a guy called Michael shamberg to be a consultant big red name Siri so he produced Pulp Fiction and he's going to be helping with their video content so that will be really interesting to see how that develops and I'm sure broadcast in the UK will be keeping a close eye on what they do baby swim lessons for BBC3 if It Moves online next year well.

Thank you for that final thought and Steve I look forward to reading your listicle 10 reasons why you underestimate buzz.

That your parents that is it for this episode my thanks to Steve and TJ we going to be back even sooner than usual with are Edinburgh TV festival special and remember you can get the podcast as soon as it's ready by subscribing via our website the media podcast this week's episode is dedicated to Gemma Harris from backer.

Olly happy 1st anniversary Gemma Holly rights to say that this podcast has replaced the traditional one year paper and to Estelle Powell Rochdale from Barcelona who is studying journalism at the University of Sheffield thanks very much are still I've been Olly Mann the producer is Matt Hill and by the way the media podcast is a PPM production and not affiliated to the Guardian in anyway.

We'll see you in Edinburgh

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