Read this: Spotify's big move on radio

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 last year we spent an enormous amount of time on this show reporting on what the US tech companies are up to now, then this year rather pleasing I feel that we should the fair amount of time talking about the Resurgence in the UK of a very old Media you guessed it is called radio Rupert Murdoch had of course been investing massively in his radio station is Chris Evans getting the test cricket meanwhile Simon Mayo has been posted by battle Radio 2 front a completely new station well.

We talking audio as a call at these days out again today, but with a new media twist because the breaking news coming out of the USA's you just heard is that the tech company Spotify is making a big move on radio find out how shortly first let me introduce you to our very last year's panel hearing studio Judith holder is best known as the producer of the TV show grumpy old women as she said because she too is join the audio.

Sunset she's got a new podcast out due to Jenny Eclair is your co-presenter.

What's it called? What's it about is called older and wider see what we did that and it's about growing old really like a lot of a comedy that I've been writing for a long time and Jenny Eclair as my partner in crime and a very good friend and we could have just missed together really we going to find little clip letters to get harder by the way over the course of the show that was am the low wide-eyed podcasting would kill off the type of audio my next guest knows all about far from it at Peppa soya is programme director of Wycombe sound which is one of over 200 community radio stations at around Britain pepper.

Thanks so much for coming in community radio stations of course.

I'll just local radio they have to meet certain very specific criteria like having a strong social component what of community radio stations got to do well.

We have to operate on a not-for-profit basis first of all many stations operate on an absolute Shoestring all of the Pea

Involved in Wycombe sound are all volunteers we have to deliver social game which you mentioned just there and that can be in all sorts of different ways it could be training it could be getting information out to local people that they might not hear any other way, because let's not forget not everybody's connected to social media resizer exactly and it makes you do an incredible job to get into out in a little while paper good to see you and we're also gonna be looking at the world of local radio which is why we also joined by Chris Burns who's the BBC's new head of low credit agricole many stations.

Are you responsible for? How big is your Empire what I've done since.

I've started.

I spent much more time on a train.

Just going round and visiting all the very stations and I think what you see is how different they are pending on the area.

The serving has a very different audiences you hear very different conversations pending and where you're going to and it gives you a

Inside it what people are talking about across England the questions I can get hold of you as well.

I promise as you know Chris some say the company have first story today is about poses an existential threat to the whole of BBC Radio Spotify announce to the New York Stock Exchange this morning where it's valued at 25 billion dollars that it's purchasing not one but two companies that make podcasts.

It's buying gimlet Media at the producer of a number formula podcast and another called anchor which offers technical tools to podcast up till now podcasting has been considered by many as something of a cottage industry that doesn't make much money per Spotify evidently think differently because the sum of money there now reported to be investing in podcast in our frankly absolutely staggering acquire rights the trade newsletter hotpot and earlier.

I asked him how the podcast and world has reacted to the news media.

Who are there? What do they do so gonna let me that is essentially a giant publish or reproduce the number of why people have shows Alex startup crimetown Mr ratio anova since they were founded about 4 years ago.

There was a bad Santa things like that Pakistan had zero issues, but essentially you should think about them as a publisher advertising agency as part of it and who owns gimlet media event was a bad back company is so technically it was up until now only because Consortium of that's ok, because they reported Price Tag is 230 million which is many multiples argue between 3 and 4 packs of evaluation does that surprise you 230 million dollars exchange rates.

Are you think it's way macedon.

Davis I was going to be a medical closest comparable.

Do you took place last year was that I heard the acquiring stuff made out of the podcast Robert Shapiro show.

Lyca howstuffworks, I meant that went for 55 million.

So this is this is quite a job for 55 to 30 and hearing all about from the community that Spotify my default for paid but I think it's a situation where I want to make a big statement and they were pretty excited about this brand and they kinda went for it here.

Let me bringing Peter Kafka is the executive editor of recode Peter you broke the story this week our last week on Spotify strategy.

Do it sounded to respire the podcast thing is a much better chance of profit margin with the park capital city of the music business is controlled by three major labels and they take the majority of revenue generated from the music.

Comics get much better margins back yet and 20% you think Peter this is Spotify trying to outmaneuver Apple because apple has been the number one house the podcast would have content creator like giving it not be something that Apple coveted as well.

Apple doesn't even remotely interested in podcast it's not well more billions TV shows I'm sure about Google and Amazon Echo smart speaker reversal to buy ankle say need audio content to put on them us company would have been quite attracted to them when it is an audio content company makes sense for Apple on Amazon it's a matter of scale Spotify only this is the music business reply to what they let me bring Nick were those of us to listen to podcasts.

What's it mean in practical terms mean might we be able to or about to see some podcast become exclusive to Spotify

So sorry, what would probably going to see some Spotify has already been experimenting Portugal podcast over the past couple years before does acquisition.

They had signed an exclusive deals with to make sure Amy schumer.

Joe Budden and doses were initially exclusive to the platform until it's going to be like that not enough people are finding it and then so I think the thinking is now that gimlet shows will mostly be exclusive, but it won't be entirely exclusive because exclusivity hasn't really been proven yet and it's it's something that that is a habitat need to be cultivated.

So my sense is that going to win arguments being so do you know the Big Body Brando bring people to the door to try so far, but this is unproven territory for the most part a pizza from Ricoh do you think edition already abroad classes should be if spotify's entry here.

I mean Daniel EK the CEO of Spotify as written on his blog today that and I quote people still spend over 2 hours a day listening to Radio and we want to bring that radio listening.

Two Spotify to cook PCs for trade replicate directly the live radio experience perhaps even higher to Radio 4 live radio shows person and I think Spotify want to be around about the world.

I think it's it's very familiar with a better since seeing in general.

Look at all this radio listening eventually, it's going to move to answer me and that's the reason next writing a newsletter.

That's recording companies investing in money will move over to park at 63 guys like every other incumbent industry of interest to move over there baby Spotify thank you very much.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you to the town of that's a perfect you into your podcast called older and wider as you mention come on Spotify offer to 100 million dollars for it.

Are we doing it for free at the moment? I mean I think they're meant to come on the Chosen so that they have offered you those business things to do sofa A2 yesterday, which haven't quite dropped by the way, did you like that's quite down with the kids? Isn't it dropped not transmitted the phrase? I didn't I didn't mean that we will always platform agnostic.

Is it is it a bit weird compared to TV where you wouldn't even take a huge names and also Korean TV you get rating Siri how you doing cuz you don't quite know cos you don't have to use the wonderful thing.

I can just get into a room we can start talking about whatever is been going on in our lives.

You know that week what it's like to have let your lipstick on RTE 7BT have the sexual you're ever pot plant which you know whatever and outitgoes you don't have a wonderful young person.

You could have producers in Haxey

About a bit crucial by the way and Norfolk games if you mention your car is Jenny Eclair and then it certainly is funny that have a listen podcast we got a lot of natural and Wittering between you and I am a yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah whatever over the garden wall.

I think it's how you put it went.

It was very high altitude have to is not barbed wire on the stuff as well.

There is the equivalent of a gnat override we can't get paid we can't because we need ladders and arrows ladders very bad idea.

I know you've been quite a solicitor cost of people who don't really know what a podcast podcast for the older generation getting a bit fed up.

7% of listen to radio radio live radio, but I've got brexit fatigue.

I've got Today programme fatigue.

I've got people having punch up so the party politics fatigue and I want something else and actually I want something that reflects my age group and actually is driven by by my age group edit unit with have mischief.

I'm not gonna forgive interrupting.

I'm not asking Mrs.

63.

Do you really think that 63 year old women on painted catered for supposed to say you don't look at my you don't look it at all.

Me a lot of you would say that people in the 60s a very well catered for in terms of radio.

Do you really think you're not being catered for and we are missing is that sort of mischievous comedy voice and I think what's assumed of us.

Is that we want that big thought of you know these issues current affairs and we don't we don't really we come on and off.

I am laughing and I think the brilliant thing about podcasting.

Is is just that you're not governed by the same rules that you are as a broadcaster so hats off Hangouts off.

Cos you can have a lot of fun on a podcast and talking about the numbers as well.

You know immediately how many people have downloaded you can check by the hour to see how many people be cleverer than somebody else do that will be checking those numbers so they're there in front of you wear as in my case.

We can't afford to be part of the survey that the big networks apart of I got no idea.

How many people listen to Wycombe sound I can hazard a guess based on the things that we can measure but that's the beauty of a podcast you know exactly where you are due to make money from this amazing the long read it be quite nice.

You know to be paid in werther's Originals or whatever it is the currency might be yeah.

Yeah, of course.

I will be lovely when you have to say I listen to whenever they're the sort of you thirtysomething equivalent of the

Fathers coming down today and they are now getting very heavy I notice on advertising at the top of the podcast and I think that is a bit tiresome.

Isn't it? That would be a shame if it would about live events rebel events when you Jenny we might do a bit of that some of the others creative freedom but also in terms of barriers to entry logically it's easier to do than getting grumpy old women onto TV and it's so much easier than it used to be a man.

I literally have discovered podcast in the last 403 or 4 months and I got the app you know I didn't didn't even have to drive a teenager to show me how to do it was quite straightforward got the app and suddenly.

I'm in his new forest of all this new content in Absolutely Fabulous in comparison.

How tricky was it who had difficult is it to get grumpy old women commission so incredibly difficult but I can't tell you how many metres hello I mean you see what was interesting is and I think I'm sure it's still the case is that you you're looking you're talking to people were much younger than you who are the commissioning editors and honestly I promise you.

We were told so many times well.

You know the over 50s watching anyway.

That is literally what people said the Assumption is that yeah, but you know that that's that section of the audience are listening or watching anyway, so you don't need to worry about them.

Only got any mention about me bringing Chris Burns head of BBC local radio Chris at your in charge of the BBC's as you say 39 local stations in England from BBC radio Guernsey to BBC Radio Newcastle you got a new strategy apparently at what is it? I think what we said is for local radio.

We want to own the local conversations in some Judas was talking about being fed up of news news is still important part of local radio, but it's also all the other stuff around news.

It's the things of interest that actually buying Communities Together I think also we want to reflect and connect with the audience to a serving which is why penny which local radio station you're at your get a very kind of different offer and a different kind of Sound and texture and I think the other thing we want to do is broader appeal I think tradition.

Do people have seen local radios being foot an older audience and I still think that's a very important part of our audience to serve but I think actually we can also broaden it out to appeal to a slightly younger audiences.

Well.

I was talking as in radio Berkshire today and someone was talking to me about the music policy what we might do that and I said well.

I think we can afford pets to think a bit younger because if you look at the people who about signing up for tickets for Glastonbury they just as likely to be in their 50s as they on their 25th probably loosened experience of Reading press releases.

I'm sad to say that I really really exist as in something of a slap in the face book though that older audiences Chris as outlined a plan for the service focusing on uncovering a nurturing new Talent increasing visibility in local Communities and appealing to younger audiences Judith what do you make that?

All of that mean, I'm sure you you're going to get some great new Talent but I must say I was struggling to find anybody older than about 30.

I just like the odds against Chris let me know that you are saying Network radio in England is a reach around 6 million people and 60% of those are over 55 and they still is very important part of that audience and you know if you'd attended the very staff meetings.

I've been holding you'll feel sick consistently.

I'm saying that I don't want to alienate people who are in their 50s by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think we can broaden our appeal because I want actually those younger audiences to get into the local radio habit as well, but you will Dailey in their name if you change your music 1970s gold and I don't think you know if you look at the Graham Norton Show Graham Norton place a very broad cross-section of of music on his show but what he does which is so clever.

Is he frames it so he introduces people to new music as well as playing classic music and I think you know people are in there.

That their 50s and 60s in their 70s there still curious about life you still want you things and that's what I want us to reflect on local radio is some of the stuff actually Judith you're talking about the Radio 2 juggernaut behind just for a bringing pivot unity I mean I hear what you're saying but I would love to say I'm Graham Norton is a brilliant example of somebody who is obvious certainly she has that ridiculous expression and has attitude mischief comedy although they say but I would love to think that hope that the new Talent that you're finding might be you know and you are not might be somebody who's who isn't just as you don't have very experienced to absolute radio presenter.

Talk about Cinemas sorry that sounded we're talking about people.

What do it would be going ahead of local radio Chris is going to make sure that radio the BBC does is embedded in local Communities but we can sounds is all about what do community stations offer that local BBC radio stations don't community stations are more local than the BBC network and I think many of us.

Would aim to be a more local version of the local BBC station to have you got an equivalent to Chris Burns a strategy of targeting young people making sure your penis new audiences as I want you just put it out there.

Hope anyone who listens to type of local I think it's fair to say that of the 260 + community stations everyone is different and they're all unique.

You know they are gems that are as yet uncovered an under-the-radar at Wycombe sound remix the music up so the key for us.

Is that all the music is familiar and in the Breakfast Show for example? There are a couple of spots.

Where will introduce new music each week, but we're playing the same tune in the same spot 5 days, so it becomes familiar over a period of time but search but listeners are calling Orson contacting us all the time saying how much they love the mix of music on we cancelled because it's familiar and it might have been a hit from the 70s all the

80s that they haven't heard in 25 years funny imagine that this have a little listen to Wycombe Sam say good morning to you welcome along to the Breakfast Show here on Wycombe Sound 106.6 FM like to publicly say a huge.

Thank you to Luke who does drive time and traffic Mick who hung around yesterday afternoon to give him a hand because there was so much information flooding in from you yesterday afternoon.

Thank you to you if you call them.

Are you broadcasting 24/7? Yes, we are you and what's the name of the operation? Where do you broadcast from Watford of how much you have to spend on the logistics in the practicalities Wearing in a wearing at the 1960s office block where in the middle of the town centre with very accessible for visitors and volunteers to get into.

Work with that but you know it's its staff its tough to pay the bills.

It's tough when you want to work with people with disabilities or people with limited mobility and the lift doesn't work.

We can't open the windows and those sorts of things but because we all love what we do.

We put up with it or studio held together by hair grips, but hey Chris Brown and one of the things we should also says the community radio on local radio very often work very closely together and I think one of the things that we need to talk about more is how we can work more closely together and if there are opportunities to share resources all that kind of stuff because we've got buildings those building should be used 24/7 and there's a way in which we can work more effectively with you.

We should do that for yeah absolutely forgive each other.

I don't know this is regulatory detail in this is the BBC obliged to help community stations in that way it was just that you feel should be part of local state always worked hand-in-hand with community radio and I think though it's something that as we look to implement if you like the new Strat

We should look at again, so if you look for example I was in Somerset the other week and there are no number of those presenters work in community read out the still involved in community radio and now working for the BBC so it's exactly should be a two-way relationship.

Yeah, and it is and if I could just as well.

That's very people who come through our sports team half a dozen young presenters trained up with Wycombe sound all now working in BBC Sport lacrosse.

The networks Jewellers.

As of of people who are interesting.

I'll let you know if you can if you access them in the right way and you actually find the right beef when you took them everyone's got the amazing story to tell and isn't that great that you might be able to some showcase are really it is absolutely and that's what we're all about.

It's all about being relevant to our local community were holding local politicians to account with with boosting the local economy.

By promoting local events and so on everybody has you said you'd if everybody has got a story.

It's just finding that story and presenting it and how far literally paper.

Do you broadcast? How do you have as a transmitter reach? What's your radius? It's one of the limitations of a community licences the power you're allowed to put so I guess answers 8 to 10 miles radius of a transmitter and you tell much overtime not enough, but isn't it only speaking frankly and crudely.

We just over the trail buy-to-let Spotify being valued at 25 billion and they have scale and they have a direct consumer relationship as it were isn't there a fundamental limit in the hyper local market which is that the scalar small that you're going to struggle to get the advertising dollars or pounds in this case are werther's Originals I think I think the business is out there because if you look at the commercial radio networks.

They're carrying big brand names up and down the motorway is a like juggernaut but Mick's MOT garage at the end of the road.

Number one you can't afford to be on commercial radio and lumber to the covering a much bigger area so he wouldn't be able to cope with the business even if you could generate it, so that's where we're ideal.

My problem is getting volunteers who want to sell advertising rather than want to be presenters other garages are available to describe ring Chris Packham actually the appetite for more bespoke content will happen more and more won't it a minute seat Mendes and community radio on local radio probably will work absolutely I'm into that appetite Chris Browns isn't a fundamental problem with BBC local radio simply that many people don't actually have an affinity with the study Bazaar boundaries that divide us some of the station, so it makes sense of your listening to one of the Metropolitan Station is Three Counties who define themselves as coming from the Three Counties what Three Counties exemption you choose that chose that particular one because I actually started my BBC career.

What was then called radio Bedfordshire which went on to be renamed Three Counties and I think of you actually listen to the station it has.

But there's something about the commonalities between people across those areas and actually the voices on air that kind of bring them all together because there are things they share in common and you know when you're living in a particular area.

We're not all the same sometimes.

It's about pointing out some of the differences and celebrating the difference is going up.

Yes, I do absolutely yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah ok and we start the short-term Spotify Chris should BBC shows become exclusive to what is basa the BBC's version Spotify CBBC sounds? I think we shouldn't be afraid of new things that come along because what I think is really exciting about the industry at the moment is the growth and interest in audio it when I started out my career.

I can other people so they say hallway radio speed of a Dying medium no-one's really going to go that are you actually go on a train the number of people wearing headphones and consuming live radio consuming podcast or making their own content and actually the more things we have and warm.

Is distributing that's going to be good for the great because it pressed wings interest to give me the question is should BBC shows become exclusive to BBC sounds that's a question for James Purnell roles of local radio BBC shows be suited to BBC sounds of local to as possibly can does that mean making exclusive moves I think that's a question for James tonight on the way the same studio of the provisional company.

I've got to ask you is buffalo credit should BBC staff exclusive beauty something with the commercial sector have strong opinions on it is but I think you know I'm responsible for local radio.

I'm not responsible for BBC sounds and that is the question for James Purnell I just wanted to add that with all of these different formats and progress that we're making local radio when it snows when your town centre grinds to a halt in the school run and in Rush Hour everybody.

Terms to local radio and that clip that you played just now with me on the breakfast show the morning after a sudden deluge of snow thanking the hundreds of people that called in and got in touch with us to tell us.

What was happening on every single little local road, because we are the Smart cars of radio 260 stations and we telling me what's happening at the end of your strength everybody, isn't it? What would be your message to the head of BBC local radio station BBC local radar should do the no one else can do in channels and because I think we have got sort of news fatigue and punch up for tea, and I may be showing off local talent, but yes certainly some new older Talent would be absolutely under stoma.

How many be very old I mean people in the 90s people in their nineties could be hilarious that in barrel from Radio Humberside they were incredibly popular yet.

We're all about owning the local conversation.

That's what I want us to reflect I can you get away from fatigue mean.

You know people have as I need to know about brexit.

They have to find out about it from Youtube the officer absolutely and I think we are connected if you like to the outside world with Arun Humberside but you can actually reflect that story also in a local way because I do go across the country you will find different views on brexit and that's part of what local radio absolutely thank you all very much do Chris Pippa and Julie if I wasn't it was luckily we put it as a podcast on BBC sounds.

Just search for search BBC sounds.

I should say for me to show and hit subscribe.

We're back at the same time next week.

Thank you so much for listening and by the media show was presented by amol Rajan and the producer is Richard Hooper