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Read this: Media Business Podcast #2: Broadcast Gamechangers - Baz and Lambert in conversation

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Media Business Podcast #2: Broadcast Gam…

Hello welcome to the media business podcast which brought you buy Media business insight the publisher of screen international and broadcast I'm Chris Curtis the editor of broadcast and this month will take care of the feet with the first part of our 60th anniversary celebrations supported by plant and screen skills you're about to hear from Teen Titans Stephen Lambert launch.

Transformative formats for Channel 4 at the creative lead for RDF before doing it all over again and finding international success with his new indie studio Lambert which is just celebrated 10 years at the top whilst Peter bazalgette, Kickstarter de revolution in lifestyle programming in the mid-90s before introducing Big Brother to the UK as a senior figure at Endemol and subsequently going on become chairman of ITV recorded at the SoHo Hotel in front of a live audience settling for an hour of funny stories and forthright views.

To tell people why bazin I know each other in the early 1980s we were both working for the BBC documentary features department.

I wanted to be making serious documentaries in Wallsend Buzzard already seen the future.

He was editing a BBC Two series called food and drink and he knew that it was the returning popular factual programme but for six months.

I was assigned as a somewhat reluctant director on the expression on your face but he was very good you felt rather humiliated.

Didn't you buy the attachment? It was a good learning experience and make a film about well.

I did I learnt I learnt how to make clear entertaining short films of food and drink for which I'm very grateful.

We were very grateful to.

Anyway decades later a decade or so later.

We were both in the India sector vases at Endemol I was a daddy Earth and then in 2008 started studio Lambert and then of course has left television effectively went and became servers and the greater member of the great and the good running the Arts Council run in the English National Opera and now of course chairman of ITV me a question, but let's talk about scripting boom and what time will it start with your company then your current company because you've moved into drama.

How many dramas have you actually got commissioned at the moment 3? Do you still put as much effort into developing non-scripta formats as you're putting into developing scripted definitely projects Definitely Maybe we we have a strong scripted dollar.

Team and we have a strong separate Unscripted Development Team and then we've also got people in Los Angeles developing specifically for the American market and in Unscripted and what are moving into drama in the way you have into scripted have you done that and it did you buy did you bring put some Writers on retainers yourself? Did you buy the rights to a great head of drama to hug who had previously Run drama ITV she's been and gone to the BBC for several years and has been responsible for a house slated of dharma Productions there and she brought with her at an early stage 3 goals which was huge Triumph in terms of ratings and and and critical reception and was our first and but the idea was to do commercial drama and now we're just completing production of a big drama series it's principally funded by Amazon but also why you left?

Just call David Grossman near future, where are phones are inside our brains? I thought that was already the case with you and if yes we live in the near future with the feed is who is is everywhere and on and everybody's doing it, but the family that run it and had invented it.

Please start to have a problem because the feed starts to go wrong.

It's based on a novel that's a fantastic premises.

Yeah, I know I'm serious I really like to see as a brilliant idea, so who's the writer woman who was on the main Writers on the Walking Dead for the last 4 years and she came up with the scenario option data and that somehow because of the way which they get picked up and dropped in the sense that the train so many things at once it's easier to get in some ways if you got the right project as easy as I get a list.

American writers in some cases although the expensive than the Bridges a list writers does a Brita Danish writers are just so booked up and it's so hard to get them so with non-scripted your whole business model is to come up with ideas that can return returnable series that's your great phrase, but the three girls isn't returnable is it is so is it returning no no so that was a mint you needed to break your duck in drama broadly speaking you like to come up with returning drama series 2 of course is intended to be returning series 10 episodes initially and then if everybody watches it about what you just said about drama this fantastic amazing demand for drama high class drama by Netflix and Amazon Prime as well as all our domestic broadcast has continued to invest in it and indeed even cable channels in America investing in drama, when they didn't before.

So, how are you dealing? That's an opportunity for you, but how you dealing with that.

That competition for Talent well, it's really hard.

I mean no hint of the biggest problem for the same any dramas producers in the alterations, St Helens and I think that have a match the buyers talk about one thing to back new writers.

It's very hard to get new writers commissioned industry compared to the ease with the relative ease with which one can get a share away if you managed to get one of that handful of ironing 1020 a list writers that people will definitely buy from and we we all struggle with them.

It's it's it will lucky that Vincent Sue has this great relationship with Nicole Taylor who wrote three goals and who now is doing a BBC series for us.

That's is a proper fictional limited proper fixing three girls is opposite a proper drama, but it was based on truth and told the truth.

I'm in the characters were will be not fictional characters.

We now she's now doing her first fictional series 6 party and because of that relationship that Sue has with Nicole we're able to get her into the Fold but the best writers either have very deep long relationships with a handful of producers or increasingly their setting up as their own producers like two brothers and so it is it is it is it is a challenge and there is so many drama startups and they can't possibly or survive I mean I just don't see how they're going to be able to find the writers that people will feel confident about going with unless of course so much drama get sordid that people start taking risks on on on less experienced Riders in the end of the day everybody has to get their break somewhere the 28th wife is going to die one day and there will be other people replacing them by then.

Yeah, do you want to name anybody specifically who said how about ITV do you think ITV is a place for new writers? I'd like to think so let's remember that it's a it's the owner of probably the last simultaneous mass audience in the country and so Kevin lygo and his colleagues have to commission shows that their fellow, going to get a mass audience, but I think of the possibilities are if you take a serious like a time wasters ITV2 which I'm picking fondle and if you think of some of possibilities there you think about some of the contemporary drama that even a massage it can deliver I'm not saying it's done by a completely new writer but I I I particularly enjoyed cleaning up recently and I thought it was a very contemporary feeling serious.

He was great to see alarm on the network so

There are opportunities, but I think one particular opportunity for all broadcasters going forward and this is right across Europe kids Germany Italy France is that as broadcasters moving to more Online distribution birthday wilderness Ford there's going to be more of the commissioning of the sort the Netflix makes and some of that commissioning is of series whose primary function is to drive subscriber growth rather than viewing numbers although obviously ideally it would do both.

I'm thinking of a serious like Netflix at the moment sex education which I'm particularly fond of I think it's a brilliant series apparently they say it's had 40 million downloads in its first few weeks to download on Netflix stream.

Butter it is about 40 million packs.

They say now you know their statistics or not.

They're not everybody understands quite how that what what on what basis there quoting but is clearly very popular for them, but if that's all serious with a young Sensibility that I think we'll see more of actually when there's more Online distribution from broadcast that's right across Europe and I look forward to that.

Do you think something like sex education would sit happily.

I didn't text message to bring some example of so much of the talk about the new The X-Files and Netflix in particular, but also Amazon is to what extent are they creating programming commissioning programming that is particular to the territories in which they want to have a strong presence.

I was initially there were century American services and they put an enormous amount of energy and money into moving into a global player where they're creating programming for particular territory and what's interesting about sex.

Education to me is that that's a show which is British cast setting the British school, but doesn't look like a British School it's a British School where they have American lockers invite play American football and they don't dressing uniforms and that's my phone actually fascinating that way it is still it is still because of its subversive humour is still at quite I think British take on the High School movie but agree with you.

It is.

It's Shotton Wales actually isn't it? It's curiously stateless which I think works for them and that probably understand it.

I dictate so explains why they've had such success with it because they've just giving it that tweak that makes it sort of more international.

It's worked, but it's a dangerous road to go down in One Sense which is that time you know you know that in the food while in the footwell of gastronomy that dreaded phrase international cuisine.

Which means food from Nowhere pleasing no one and you want you don't want to get into the Euro pudding world but actually which is what where we know we were 1020 years ago a drama that was compromised but actually I'm not actually understands.

I've been watching couple of the dramas this four.

Seas be making was very dark Concord hidden people want hidden.

Yes, and then the other one more recently about the solicitor goes it disappears.

What was that one called you know the one I mean anyway and that's interesting because it's so you know it's not a one coat render its partial in Welsh with no but it's not interested that she Plymouth but obviously we had a low-budget wonderful actress who also turned up in cold feet the other night.

I noticed as a girlfriend if girlfriend, but no, it's fascinating isn't it? But we wouldn't drink that things with subtitles would have a way.

Audience but keeping faith was a huge hit on iPlayer I believe it anyway, so interesting what you can do and not get into the Euro pudding meso were much more sophisticated about how we make good drama, which involves more than one and possibly two or three cultures.

I'm going to answer your question.

Ok? I want to know whether we'll always emphasis on drama.

You say you're spending as much time developing a scripted Unscripted formats as you ever were is the demand from as strong as ever or are they suffering are they eroding as soon as we feed a feast on drama in all the schedules.

I don't think that their name in their think that Unscripted formats are incredibly prevalent in in in in our schedules.

I mean it with ITV I'm a celebrity dancing on ice X Factor

BBC The Apprentice strictly Channel 4 Bake Off Gogglebox on Netflix only just gotten going in Unscripted but already they've got a great success with having to the extent that one believes what the great successes are because they keep everything secret but nailed it queer eye which are a very fine come the ITV Studios for Netflix understand succeeded and so I think that are making many versions of the circle for Netflix I mean that's a big interesting move from their point of view because it's it's it's it's it's them moving into a competition reality show that's quite unlike what they've been doing before ok.

If we think of all the shows you've done faking it Wife Swap Gogglebox and son Undercover Boss Basquiat hair transplant offending what happens in the Stephen Lambert development from when people start to develop an idea and think of an idea what's sensibilities on their mind and and and I'm going to exemplify the question and you have to spare your brushes here because I said this to you before Gogglebox which is a shower.

I absolutely revere and love and anacostia with his brilliant up.

There was particular Edition and I've said this stupid for of Gogglebox at the time of the 2007 2015 General Election so that week.

I'm everybody thought it's going to be hung parliament and Ed Miliband might even be Prime Minister and there was a question time in Leeds

They brought them up people on one by one and Nigel Farage swore at the audience and said they were left his put there by the BBC liberal minded BBC Cameron the oldest in sympathy like him, but this is quite respect him every band half fell off the stage which wasn't actually is full but he suffered from it in terms of image and all that went on in that in that program that was on a Wednesday or Thursday that was one of the clips.

You showed your Gogglebox and you've got like what how many couples back 10 couples probably taking part in that One edition of Gogglebox the follow the result of the General Election was in that program that program went out on Friday the 10th elections the following Thursday and they all reacted to the Show by not exactly saying I like Cameron but you know he looks like a leader not liking Farage attacking the audience for asking questions.

Cos that and thinking Miliband hope is falling off the stage.

I'm just being honest.

That's how I felt the whole result the fact that conserve is gonna win was in that Pro

You had touched a profound cord of what people were thinking and got a snapshot on it.

So how does that happen from the beginning of the process? What are people sitting around the room saying to each other hello guys.

Well, I mean ideas come from different sources and there's no doubt that the coming up with a good idea of starting point of a good idea sometimes comes from me more often than not these days it comes from Tim Harcourt our creative director and then we we we we kick them around.

We I mean initially when Tim suggested the idea of Gogglebox I was a bit sceptical because when the BBC's doing Channel 4 started Jane root and Michael Jackson do the show called on the box and they have the idea of putting a camera inside televisions and it was an interesting sociological experiment that showed most of the time people and actually watching television on the television was on.

Arguing that they were ironing, but they weren't watching television could be quite dangerous initially with that has been sorted down and interests and then it was a realisation.

We talk more about it that it was actually an opportunity to just find an amazing cast of characters and the television was just going to be a weekly prompt for them to react to and and you're asking was there a kind of theme for the suit of ideas that we have developed a lot in the past and I think there's a core theme.

Is is is is is a clash of values.

We are often looking for ways of bringing together people who have got different values and and ideas about how the world is I mean whether it's obvious example be somewhere to family discover.

Are there in separate Civilizations and the idea of living in this other civilization is a huge dramatic and a can of involving process, but if you look at something like Secret Millionaire Undercover Boss or even faking it.

It's fish out of ordered people putting people and situations where they're exposed to people who got completely different values to themselves and they go on a journey of realising about the difference of the realisation of Gogglebox realising that you could do with showed that was about people with different sets of values, but didn't have to meet they just had to have a shared common experience and income shared common experience was was was was watching that week television yes, because you're always in my family actually joined the Royal Family was a brilliant show with life is Caroline and Craig have agreed to do the Royal Family

The Clash of values is one family very funny very evening situation, but with the with the Gogglebox we get we get at least 10 or a dozen different kinds of families reflecting a variety of values of a and the interesting about Gogglebox for me one of the interesting things is the way in which people from very different backgrounds sometimes reaction of very similar way to what they're saying but other times and acting a very different way and that variation is interesting so just before you ask me or next Siri and abrasive question because you're such a such a for the truth Stephen I noticed.

I don't want to talk to you best single, deal.

I never from The Royle Family which was brilliant.

I think you'll agree was fantastically written.

It was a genius series and I think it was written by Caroline Aherne what you want picking up programme The grandmother was still alive and the the youngest son brought a girlfriend home for the first time and she.

She was a vegetarian vegetarian.

They were discussing had a good deal with this vegetarians grandmother came up with a solution.

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Name the booze the kisses the squabbles underscore.

Xxx no idea what's going on in politics today make sense of it all with a digital subscription to The Times and the Sunday Times from only £3 for 3 man Hurry offer ends Monday April 15th search x sale now conditions of hire available to new subscribers only asked you about Big Brother because it ended really must you watch television and that that inspiring manhood was your boss tells you I have this new show and that's television.

I would like you to take it to Britain but when I read up when I read a book about Big Brother my extremely disable aging assistant dog out a memo.

I'd sent to John de Mol in 1999 is the year before it went onto UK TV

Words said I don't think we can sell this in UK but if we can only go out on Sky television which was pretty ironic because when I did come to sell the showed it was already a hit in Germany and Holland when I offered it to Liz Murdoch at Sky she never replied but it was a program.

That is so run-of-the-mill now and it's such a basic technique of making TV just having a fix camera rig and asking people essentially to sort of Excel themselves, but be themselves that it seems ridiculous now to get fed up of him, but at the time it was a very shocking idea that you know it caused a fatwa in Bahrain the show in Bahrain got close down by a mob of mothers and the CIA came in and took the

Chris Barrie is a naval base of a CIA surveillance on it and a caiman rescue the production team before the before the priests arrived to try and close the house done it cost to constitutional crisis in Malawi in Mexico but 200 Catholic families only bit companies and therefore do all the television advertising and they had a pact between them to withdrawal the advertising try and kill it off in Germany the regulator try to stop the show on the grounds that it infringed the right the post-war constitutional journey is every citizen's right to privacy reasons.

We don't understand and the 72 year olds regulator in rhine-westphalia said infringement of the people's privacy notice, but they're so you know, is it was a compromise in Germany and there was a room that didn't have cameras on in it for one hour a day consequently the

ASOS advertising people Neverwinter different going to make a much better version wasn't that different the main difference was the commissioning editor at Channel 4 is Tim gardam, and it was Tim you actually said they're only doing evictions every two weeks and that's not Brooklyn act in the action going on.

Let's do a eviction every week, so that was the main difference I chose that was Tim Tim was the person who then on a set of two series later had to judge.

There wasn't a serious incident and he had to judge whether the Edit of it this AMR Simpsons Bishop criteria to judge whether this amorous incident was it was appropriate to go out on television at 10 every time used to go on.

And so we had to send Overton the Edit of it and it got sent over on to Channel 4 and it was mentally this happened, but it went anyway out onto the main channel for ring main across the whole building in through reception.

There was this event this as a liaison and all working channel.

For half an hour everybody down tools and watch this extraordinary see and I remember him saying only wanted it.

You have to edit out one expression.

We should what's that? He said I've looked at his face you have to edit out the riches of pleasure very timid Cambridge educated very Tim Godfrey the region became principal of a college at Oxford translate about Tom some literary book king of literary criticism of Pleasure by Tim garder when it's over now on Channel 5 bike it's probably going on.

All over the world still isn't if I don't know sorry from Endemol shine with telus.

I'm sure look at the show is now 20 years old it started in 1999 in Holland V natural life of a format is as you know better than anybody the hit format will pick probably between the years about 5 and 8.

They will start to decline if it declines rapidly tough, but if it declines gently yes, it's still quite a property known and Big Brother I think it's still quite an unaffordable should I say yes, it's often the UK but I think it runs in other places.

Yes, I mean I think one of these Jordans with things as the way in which the Unscripted shows particularly using this on the American broadcast television that started in the early 2000s that they're the ones that are still going.

I'm in it so hard to launch a New York show insoles broadcast television the hits the still.

Liver Big Brother the bachelor amazing ways he shows amigo forever and ever and people's inertia is extraordinary and yet you see that the viewing figures for all networks the broadcast networks in America have just completely collapsed and the only thing that they are still watching but still it much much smaller numbers and before tend to be the weather this is Old War horses.

Well or indeed a popular fresh wonderful produce formats is another phrase that springs to mind but it's true in this other if I may add to the phenomenon.

You're talking about quite a lot of programs series formats that were axed as the whole broadcast schedule cake total broadcast cake scream anyways because of Online distribution, but they schedule cake is getting slightly smaller every year more rapidly in American here, and so there was shows that were cancelled forgetting six or eight.

Live viewers for the not coming back and doing very well and dancing on ice has been Revived on ITV Who Wants To Be A Millionaire has been Revived on ITV Love Island is actually revival from 2004 and so the ant and the advantage of those shows is that they have recognisable brands in an era where we know we have more choice and we're more destructive than ever before so yes, so it does that make it more difficult than to get more followers hits away.

Yes, everything is the second series I mean if you're lucky and you push and you've got an idea you believe in.

It's not always but sometimes you get the shows on there came the second series that's hard.

I'm in the number of shows that I thought that's going to work and we're going to get a second series and it doesn't happen is more than I care to think about what you just have to buy broadcast Estate what about ITV they were what about risk taking generally do you think that?

Mini, did you feel comfortable about how much risk ITV is willing to take or do you think it's quite a cautious network what I said earlier.

I don't get this network at all.

I create a network, but I think it is serving a simultaneous mass audience which means it's taking decisions that would obviate some sort of programs that wouldn't get a mass audience look I think the overall point to make here is that we are very blessed in the UK and arguably in the US I having more broadcasters than any other country in the world who are saying please bring his new ideas.

You think it may be slightly less now before or not.

I don't know you can comment on that but that's why I mean I didn't find out 4 years ago that most countries were used to sell formats to when I was at Endemol I used to say bring us a tried and tested for bringing a hip bring out of every country said bring us formats that already a hit there will be no new format so the fact that.

There are broadcasters and online distributors in this country saying bring us new ideas both in fiction and non-fiction is a wonderful thing and it's the reason that we've got such a strong sector.

We've got brilliant independent producers of John McVey their nose because you've done the numbers.

You know the exports of content from this country have gone up or ignition in the last 15 years ago that wouldn't happen this you had lots of people saying bring me new ideas.

Let's put money into new ideas and pilots.

So let's hope that goes on and I think I did his part of that site.

I don't think it's fair to say it doesn't take risks.

Completely agree with your mate.

I think that's what's extraordinary about being a producer in Britain you we are in the best place in the world for selling a paper idea and it's where you are.

When is in a strong position going to America as a British producer because they're looking for something where they can see tape and if you've made it here even if you

You just made the pilot hole and and and the Show isn't isn't isn't been broadcast yet here.

They want to see some tape and you can make a sizzle with with with your British Show and so it's an Americans and that's an enormous jump up compared to make something in American producer.

Having to go with a paper and is how we got this position of having more than half their trading entertainment formats because we had this testbed all this nursery in this country how confident are you in the future of Public Service Broadcasting this is actually very important and rather serious subject.

I'm gonna talk about the need for it before I tell her how confident I am in it because I think content with a public purpose which I think most people in this room have produced and I've consumed and believed in is probably more important in the internet era than it was before the internet here.

I think of the internet here is the error of the of the conduit of rumour gossip and paranoia.

I look at contact with the public purpose which is best exemplified by the public service broadcasters, but you'll find it on other channels as well and you'll find Sky for instance doing some very interesting programming with a public purpose.

I think it has three key functions the first is probably the most important of the three and that's democracy you cannot have a functioning democracy without a inform citizens and you can't have informed citizens unless they can go to trust and reliable sources of news and information and the only difference between now and 25 years ago is that the internet era unleash the demon opened a Pandora's box and it's like sort of Goebbels is fantasy Nobles only have the radio goebel said he could not have done what he did in 1930s Germany about the radio Magic Goebbels would have done with the internet.


You know it's happening and we're all subject to fake stuff all the time most of some of it with maligning.

Tent and that makes trust and reliable news and informations properly resourced and son more important than ever as particularly, pleased two nights ago on ITV News at the 10 news program.

Alastair Stewart was hosting at tonight's game never reporting on Damian Collins report from the select committee which was essentially about her sort of rather existential issue every country is facing which is how do you regulate the internet? We all know we have to regulate the internet but the question is how do you do it and either alastor or the new scriptwriter written In A Line about the importance of trusted news information and I do think the BBC and ITV News should probably spend sometime online and on television reminding people what it is.

I don't know why my kids would necessarily know how BBC news in ITV news is what the tenets are how the genus of train what the standards.

Are we need to promote news and news needs to explain itself and remind me.

It's values that something at the culture thing you know doesn't require much unpacking but I take the ITV example of plenty of examples and other channels that you know the Emmerdale and Coronation Street in a 6 times a week in each case if the countries thinking about and argue about gay marriage for immigration.

You'll find those issues exercise those programs are part of a national conversation and where as I would applaud Netflix and Amazon Prime I would repeat what you said that Sex Education season damn fine series is somehow stateless and a the mitten wonderful series teaches how to make drugs in the Arizona desert or sever bodies on Scandinavian Bridges and these are wonderful and they greatly enrich what consumers can watching the entertainment we get but programmes about us for us made bias as something that a very important for any country with a

Positive national conversation and functioning culture and the third thing is economy and I went on packet now, but content with the public purpose is part of the Investment in the creative economy, and the creative economy is one of the most important sectors in our economy going forward in the future in the knowledge economy the creative economy so for all those reasons content with a public purpose is critical and can be perfectly healthy if we find a way of finding the BBC beyond its current 11 year charter whatever that way is and if we allow ITV channel 4 and Channel 5 to continue with their model of being Advertiser supported which means not interfering too much in their model or bringing in overbearing rules about what can and can't be advertised unless there's damn find evidence for reasons for banning advertising and it requires in the multiplicity of distribution.

Listen some platforms a country to say if we believe in contact with the public purpose and people need to be able to find it and that means a certain rules about prominence not just on Virgin and sky Dad on internet connected TVs as well, so we've yet to work through that but that's important as well, so I am confident if we crack the things.

I've just talked about but we can still have a future where we have a strong tradition of content with a public purpose that was a very good.

How many jobs are we doing then? I mean with the big news.

I worry that I look at brexit and I think we haven't done a very good job.

You just unpack that for a moment.

So why what were your for? How do you do polls I read recently new 35% of people thinking that No Deal meant that we would stay in the EU and there will be no change.

You could ask those sorts of questions at any given time in our history.

Who's the prime minister? I normally only get upset when your right concussed in A&E actually and actually nobody knows that everyone in the nation is concussed at the moment.

It's either single question with the word end of the answer to something.

I thought that they did have the telephone brexit drama that scene where Oliver is is is complaining about the fact that you know we put on Nobel Prize economist talking about what a disaster.

This is going to be and you'll put on some complete lunatic against it to let's let's just let's just on pack that from him.

So you're saying that you found the Princeton sleep coverage of the referendum campaign unsatisfactory.

I didn't think it was.

Something's going on there and I'm not making point here.

That's either pro remain or leave by the way because both votes were perfectly respectable reasons for voting either way.

There's no point in being metropolitan and so how about this and say all your own as anyone answer isn't only one answer but when you ask a binary question be careful what you doing are parliamentary system has not been about binary questions except when you make a choice between parties of the General Election and I'll Birkin system is to elect MPs to as representatives.

Who's there intelligence and wit to work together to come up with Solutions in the country and if we don't like either performing every for 5 years and get rid of them.

It isn't our system to ask a binary question which can be decided on a simple majority the nature of which is divisive and you know the referendum incredibly devices in this country at divided by geography it divided by age.

Just by wealth it was profoundly unsettling experience for this country to go through that and to continue with that uncertainty now and then only off to think about those things you think about what how was the media meant to respond to that and I would agree with you.

I think the media fell down and that this is how I think they fell down.

I think they said well wearing partial so it's a binary question and it's yes or it snow and so will give 6 minutes the man who says yes and 6 minutes the woman who says no, that's not the role of brilliant independent Media old brilliant into metre Media is independently to enquire and investigate and whether you're talking about Project fear from the remain side which was ill thought out and certainly wasn't demonstrated immediately for the two years after referendum though.

He told me we're going to fall off a cliff.

Whether we will now is another matter who told medially not true or where they're talking about that 350 million number brilliantly written about in James Graham so play on Channel 4 which I thought was really good.

I really enjoyed it on the bus.

This was not properly interrogated so we did fall down on the job, but we fell down on the job because we were thought we were so taken over by the the premise of this binary question and this this device device on it.

So I ate the whole thing was profoundly unsatisfactory.

Yes, I agree to the public service ITV doesn't really make sense to have two news is opposite each other all the time.

I was watching ITV news last night thing.

Why is this going on the history of the BBC news for 9 to 10 for history argue that it's forcing people to watch 1 years of the oven extent that they watched BBC and ID

Question, it's a fairly minor question because you get to Frankley head up about the schedule of BBC One and heaviest is to forget that I put it in its broadest people watch the not just that not disturb the public service broadcasters have got to cooperate much more than compete with each other in the future for the for the betterment of Public Service Broadcasting that's the point so it's sort of a fairly narrow subject about is one program against another I get a bit bored with it ITV commercial sense to carry on having the obligations of being a PSP broadcaster, because what's the benefit is that prominence is that it because you could decide to give back the licence and just be a digital broadcaster, but so I mean there are two things here.

You know this is the technical discussion about what is the value of the licence and of course it used to have a huge value.

When you had limited spectrum course and the internet and existence on and that value of come down and down and there are various strange Sons done by Ofcom about what it is worth that so loved ones that your technical discussion is a different thing which is what's in your DNA as an organisation and the DNA of ITV and I'm not distinguishing here from Channel 4 all the BBC the DNA of ITV is to make not just mass entertainment but mass entertainment programs for the public purpose and that means as I said earlier what the soap operas do and that means that national and regional news this is essential that would you could do all that as your DNA without having to take on the obligations of those offered for those are the obligations? That's what we're going to do and not be regulated in the same way if you didn't have the licence if I like that slightly perverse if you're going to do what it is the regulators ask you to do some of these regulations are a pain in the neck only.

Ashley I don't tell you agree with that for instance the regulation that we should have 25% independent producers that seems to be a pretty healthy thing the regulation that we should make half-hour programs.

That's outside London that's a pretty healthy thing we got there a major production bases in Manchester and Leeds and we've got 17 regional news rumours and son those are pretty good pretty good things to be doing particularly when I talk about broadcasting or programs for the public purpose you know we are sitting here in a cinema in Soho we will go home to our London Houses tonight, but you know this was the case when out of the Arts Council as well, London sorry that Britain has been far to London South East centric.

I personally welcome, what channel fours now doing I welcome the fact pack day.

I read the other day is going to open an office in Leeds as well.

Leeds is one of actually VIII creati record report on how we could grow the creative Industries the governess industrial seshu, my main proposals.

We need to invest in creative.

Fastest one of those have been vestas Leeds and then channel fours going there packs opening opening up there.

This is all good stuff, but so you know that we need to spread the economic and the cultural investment wealth and all the rest of it across all Communities so now all of these things are good and would want to do them anyway, if you were a responsible public company, so you wouldn't know if yourself and some of those obligations.

I don't actually at the moment believe that it is any coming argument know there are circumstances as I said earlier where if regulation became too onerous mean look you only have to open a newspaper any day of the week to find somebody wants to ban something right a lot of things.

I want to ban.

I was things that are the life blood of our creative industry and pay for our programming like certain advertisements.

So if we were put under onerous regulation.

Other sort that some propose that might necessitate a change but at the moment.

No, I think it's a good system because I need to return last minute? So yeah.

I'm good or bad thing you use your revenues this your who's your biggest customer Netflix and Amazon how could you send? How could you have very could you for the fun of Medusa there are more buyers in the Market Place there's more opportunity to sell your wares and are they the best place to sell your wares.

I mean the deal isn't as good as selling to a British broadcaster where they only take UK rights and you have the ability to sell your taper your format around the world.

Netflix is trying hard over there with the show that we're doing that the circle we were in their new scheme where they are paying a format for effectively a premium for each person to encourage us to bring a format that otherwise we would sell around the world, but we give them the global rights and then each version they order they they pay a premium so they're trying to replicate the advantages of what we are normally used to but it's still the best possible hit you can have the best possible upside is a show where you are able to sell the format of the tape around the world and one or two territories maybe even just one has paid for the original version of this is all speaking entirely from the point of view of the economics of are we doing about the public or we're talking about I may be attached on some of that.

Public consequences of the emergence of of Netflix and news about Facebook earlier, I think some of the boys I wanted to make with how crazy are attempts to regulate these things and can sometimes can be we were talking before they started about the weird decision in pet retrospect Arthur fight the British broadcasters.

We're going to come together and offer something that would have been a real competitor to Netflix and Amazon with kangaroo and it was it was the regulator the Competition Commission I mean look back on it didn't want an extruded as in there, so we can't let that happen.

It would be detrimental to competition.

I remember somebody me a joke about so when we talk about the regulating of the internet look crazy decisions are made when you do start regulation, but it was the process of the competition markets authority of Competition Commission member somebody wants to me as a kid a dumb dumb bird and done number plates on its back because

How do you want to know where it's been it doesn't wanna know where it's going and the Competition Commission was fooling the historic role of the dum dum bird because it was only regulating by what it needed happened in the past.

He had no idea what's going to happen in the future, but the future happens really quickly we can say Netflix and Amazon our great customers great boon for consumers fantastic for creatives to have that the icon frenemies know they compete with ITV4 eyeballs, but they're one of our biggest customers as well Netflix and it's a wonderful thing now.

I am empowered in this orgy of self congratulation to ask your final question and it is what was your happiest moment in television? I also I mean there's nothing happy thought I do actually think we coming up with ideas that are returnable and popular.

Is much harder than making documentaries Amelia grooming after making documentaries about the Tamil Tigers or whoever British mercenaries in Croatia was fascinating and very intense experience, but it's not anything like as intellectually demanding as trying to come up with something in a room with some people or not in the room wandering around going for walks trying to come up with something that is engaging repeatable generates enough variation, so that you want to keep watching it and is makeable within the constraints of the programme budget, so that is such as getting a bigger audience is much more difficult to get in a small order and I learnt that because I was a research on that's life and my happiest moment was that moment I used to have to write Cyril get your members to cross-eyed Cyril in the chair.

Who is the read out the press cuttings well, I just have to write his bits of it as I had to go to the letters had the least important job in the rump and I'm happy.

Televisions when I received a letter with a photograph and it's still refused to do this by the way, but it was a photograph of two billboards, which were contiguous and the one on the left zvd can be cured if treated early and the right said I got it at the co-op St Dunlap thanks to them.

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