Read this: Investigating Michael Jackson

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 what is the king of pop a paedophile to have been mini disgusting statement made recently concerning allegations of improper conduct on my part these statements about me are totally fast in life.

He denied it.

He beat multiple criminal charges, but tonight channel 4 broadcast compelling you testimony that Michael Jackson was a child abuser so when the subject of the allegations can't respond.

How should a documentary maker treat the claims my interview with the director of leaving Neverland is coming up shortly let me introduce you to our other guests in a studio take this basis here Westminster correspondent the Yorkshire Post Liz got the big politics story last week which led to the suspension by the Labour Party of the MP Chris Williamson the story was about how he told a meeting of actress that the party had been too apologetic over aunty.

Atlas axle coming in how many MPs are you keeping track of your paper? How many who have bigsby 5455 heating Yorkshire and all of them? Have you really have your own 54 people if it's about one of the 54th overtaken with jealousy and anxiety Richard Barrett is here at the editor of Jewish News Richard thanks as well teeth coming in at you're very kind Theory arranged your schedule to join us because of your new favourite goes to print that what's your splash goggles asleep preview Jewish labour movement tonight going to vote about an affiliated to the Labour Party first time in 100 years then might split.

Yeah.

I'm actually here and holding the paper for an extra few hours because I don't in the Beating things she still 8:30 rapidash back after this and find out what the result was out is but yeah, it could be a watershed moment in this four years old with labour anti-semitism.

Going to get internet in a big wait earlier and say thank you both very much indeed for it and coming in 9 in the army of moonwalkers as they call themselves outside Channel 4 headquarters this afternoon know you're fat do your research that's the chance from a group of die-hard Michael Jackson fans.

They were protesting against the premiere tonight of leaving Neverland d2pak 4-hour documentary makes a claim that the biggest pop star of all time was a child abuser leaving Neverland has been described as controversial not least because it didn't offer right of reply to anyone connected with Jackson MJ Troosers have already flooded move movie review sites with 1-star ratings the estate of Michael Jackson launched a lawsuit to try to stop HBO from scope screening in the US but those who've actually seen the film speak very differently it features the testimony of Wade Robson and James safechuck who has children?

Dwell with Jackson performing on stage and spending many many nights in Netherland Jackson's Ranch in California or early I spoke to the film's director Dan Reed and I asked him how he persuaded the two men to take part in his documentary by the time they met me they had persuaded themselves.

I think because the other lawyer put it to them and they discussed it with him, then they discussed it with their wives so by the time.

They had agreed to meet me and give me the benefit of the doubt and let me explain to them what I want to do and I think that's what I meant it and how much did Wade Robson James safechuck talk to each other about the fact that they're going to co-operate with you.

Not all my little because they you know that matters children and then again talking in their teens with hints of Jackson territory and then when James join the lawsuit that way did already begun against the estate they had lunch I think it's just my 2014 at lunch under the supervision of their lawyers and then after that had no contact whatsoever.

So they do they have much contact while you're actually making the program.

It's quite interesting although she kept apart because you want things they stayed and I think the Jackson organisation of saying as you know they they met and they've had no they've got their stories straight will have units where the storage so similar.

I don't believe that's true the obvious but necessary question is whether they're reliable victims of Nazi journalistic question here they previously had said different things under a potentially stand to earn a lot of money from this book deals and whatever else and they're accusing someone who been dead can't answer back James and we're not dead and that's the key fact here.

They have a 400.

Are they reliable? I spent a long time investigating the claims and I look back into normal stuff the police have dug up in 93 went to speak to The Detectives spoke to the prosecutors.

I didn't find a single dose me believe that Michael was innocent and I looked huge massive corroborating evidence of which there's there's a lot they're a lot of facts there that supports where does James story?

Unifix don't lie to paraphrase the Jackson camp paedophiles, do we show them some types of dancing performances things I've been doing of the last 2 years that he wanted to see I think it was a Friday and he said you had to you and the family.

Do you guys want to come to Neverland for the weekend?

once the abuse started

They were then that first week in every night that I was with him.

There was abuse while my mother was Uno next door.

Yeah, he started talking about how much he loves me.

What this is is us how we show our love for each other other people are ignorant and stupid and they've never understand if they were found out what we were doing about the sexual stuff.

United People's Park and that he and I would go to jail for the rest of our lives, how can you do your due diligence on events which are sexually nature a very disturbing and happened in a private room? How can you check that the accurately and the others from my camera partly after 30 years of interviewing people you look for inconsistencies.

You look for anyone trying to sell you a line you look for skipping lacunar in the in the story look for missing bits and both ways and James was very very consistent.

We went over this and over this and over this and and and also the sort of brutal graphic detail with which they describe what happened.

You know what your man was to sit down and talk about being sexually abused as a little boy.

It's difficult did you pay them no money not in any way?

So we were like this married couple and I see Mary because we had this Mark wedding ceremony.

We did this.

In his bedroom.

inui

I filled out some bows fibre bonded forever if elgood marine is nice.

It has a row of diamonds.

weather Goulburn

How is really into jewellery?

And he would reward me with jewellery for doing sexual acts for him.

He would say that I need to sell him some there a lot of people who do stick up the Michael Jackson you say that they spend more time with him in his internet company that he didn't sexually abuse them include a reference to a couple of the end of the first part of the documentary Michael Jackson's is state of being pretty aggressive in their pushback, which one would expect the Lucia lawsuit against HBO the co-producers documentary and they said of you Dan Reed violated every rule of responsible German documentary filmmaking the orbit embedded himself he accuses legal team to the point where he refused to devote even one minute of a 240 minute film to any of the mountainous evidence showing the Robson and save Jacqueline he refused to offer any counterpoint to their applications and refuse to talk to anyone who statements may not fit the storyline of a fictional film he was dead set on making from the outset.

That's a pretty brutal attack on you as a journalist.

Let's take them let's take them into her mistake the akinator.

Determine a fight them you all bit embedded yourself with the accusers legal team ourselves with anyone else.

You know there's plenty of for counterblast in the film from the FA Youth use any council in the documentary when that statement literally have no idea what they're talking about love of denials and rebuttals by Jackson in his legal team there's three of his lawyers in the film and then there's no way comes out with the story in 2013 this again.

We put in you know who's his trial lawyer Tom mesereau saying there's a load of rubbish and fans singing in Saints Row chosen as plentiful so cancer arguing and film did you try to contact any of the friends of Michael Jackson who would give a different account due to say that there are young and spend time with the word? It wasn't a paedophile was that even if you make me a document about Ted Bundy do you contact the poopy didn't murder slightly different isn't in the fact that you know the people Ted Bundy murder.

We know too that we know that was a criminal offence that we are Michael Jackson's to troll in the USA for child abuse charge.

Search committee lewd acts, but was found not guilty Court in Dorchester similar allegations Aaron stood up.

So this is Emma Ted Bundy which is for those who don't know murderer who's coming in a multi-part Netflix series.

He's a convicted criminal.

This is about someone who was found not guilty and I would have thought journalistic Lee there is a duty to give a platform in a voice of those who say actually this guy wasn't a paedophile at least give him some weight in 240 minutes a film which is pretty true to his allegations about when you can't answer back the people exist who claim to feel not that they won't abused and they kept his company of children.

It doesn't really shed any useful light on what way did James say in the end it we're talking about stuff that happened.

I unlock doors behind all of Jackson's alarm bells in the alarm systems and you know he he coached him to keep the secret and they do keep the secrets and one wonders how many other little boys are keeping secrets.

We couldn't believe that he would want to hang around us in this tiny little house and he walk in the house and you walk in the front door and he's got this safe sharks like he was at home you no full arm DAB acting to save charts.

That's how he felt about it.

He could be anywhere with anybody in the world and Michael wanted to be with our family.

This was also overwhelming and like a fairytale and I got lost in it and I know my husband got lasting it to when you watch the documentary NUC the devastation that this abuses had on on the families.

I think it's very hard once you see you know these boys mum's going on television and saying I delivered my little boy into the hands of a predatory paedophile who I thought was a great guy.

You know your name anyways the family tells the story of Jackson the kind the generous the the childlike Eden have a childhood something I've never understood why not having a childhood entitles you to to rape children and so I think by the end of it.

I think if you still believe that all these people are weaving A Cock and Bull Story I'm ID just like I said I think anyone who watches the film part 1 and part 2 you know I think I think it's just such compelling evidence.

I think it would have stood.

Fine criminal Court maxi, what's your duty of care to these two young men contact with them? They're both and therapy and do you know they're on a long long journey.

I think are trying to understand what happened to them and rebuild their lives around this complete reassessment of what their relationship would Jackson meant you know until we was in his late Twenties he thought Jackson was a wonderful man and his relationship with Jackson they've been in an equivalent of a good thing it wasn't abuse it was love to have been mini disgusting statements made recently concerning allegations of improper conduct on my part these statements about me are totally fast they served a search warrant find me which allowed them to view and photograph my body including my penis.

My buttocks and lower torso size in any other area that they wanted to stay.

Jackson also points out that Michael's children at have to enjoy his allegations.

Did you consider that you might have a duty of care to the Jackson family wants to know his see their father describes a paedophile TuneIn I do feel for the Jackson children.

They had nothing have no responsibility.

They can't have known you feel for the bit.

Do you do try to protect them in anyway as anything you can do to try and just only worn Paris that the film was coming out but more than that.

I think we do like you can't really say well.

That's a reason not tell the story and it's an important story has to be told Mike restorative course, it's alright so the practicalities.

How many hours of footage did you get in a can going to wait for 3 days and then to pick up interviews after that and James for 2 days again with pick-ups in a pretty about 24 hours of interview with with Wade and little less with James and then you know three days with where's Mum etc.

Etc.

A lot a great deal of Village raise money for a documentary like this and where did you raise the money from this was a channel for 48 minutes?

So when I got the meeting with with the lawyers I came back from that and said to transfer all if we get the in the interviews with weight James we've got this is got to be a commission to me when I came back within to use I put together a half-hour real of Wade and James interview and some archives staff and then I went to HBO cause only we needed a US broadcast partner.

It was going to be an expensive phone to make an HPI reactor very very quickly to give my neighbour to your behalf of listening to insects in expensive thing was only quarter of a million, but no lot more lot more than that and how did you get access the Jackson archive and the music right there are clips from Jackson's concerts and his music and you know that they're included under the fair dealing clause clearly stayed with me going to licence any archive to us and it's quite a despacito video footage something very disturbing with her because you eat Jameson raid Gates his right doesn't think probably majority are coming to the cider.

York library stuff with licensed all their personal archive congratulation congratulations on the David you were born in in my opinion.

You should spend this day with your mother and your father who fancies you and you should be given in the present and do you think that im into the world in the future is yours and you can do whatever you want so Congratulations I Love You by if you been posted a thread of lack of Vitamin Jackson's going to pretty figures fanclub their processing outside Channel 4 today as you know if you received death threats.

Yes platform mostly.

Well.

Just busy by email from people who lie cos you don't know where does different New York which which we found to be possibly more credible, but it turned out to be a guy in Australia if you still police protection.

They when James has had close protection during her some dancing and when they've been more exposed and the ND Salt Lake City police and park City police were amazing their Bond orders and SWAT team little bit Fallout what happens next now.

What happened on this film.

I mean is lot of attention to it.

You have see the nature documentaries as there's a particular rating of the number against it but what does success look like and what happens successfully looks like you know people out there learning about how grooming sexual abuse really goes down.

It's too terribly sad truth to have to confront that a child victim can fall in love with his or her abuser and that that can lead to a secret being kept for decades and and you know your whole childhood being based on the line.

It's because it's terrible psychological damage the secrecy in there, so I would hope the disk unit it's an amazing case study of a grooming paedophile at work.

So I want people to.

Toucan education from my phone and I think you know it's a blessing that it is Michael Jackson because more people to be interested, then read the director of leaving Neverland which is on Channel 4 tonight.

Let me bring back our guests here.

It is Westminster corresponding for the Yorkshire post at least you got skipped last week of Chris Williamson MP telling a meeting in Sheffield of Labour activists at the party had been too apologetic over the issue of anti-semitism.

I used to relate to the suspension of Chris Williamson by labour MP pologize for choice of words and said he was unswerving an unfaltering in the fight against anti-semitism story when was onto the new state tallest me how you got your scoop.

Well.

I feel like I would like to make it into a more interesting story that is looking to the meeting or something like that, but so Sheffield momentum invited Chris Williamson up to give a spit speak to them which is the 4th is that you saw they took the video of it and then they posted it into their Facebook group and somebody locally just gave me an urgent said hey have you seen this and yes, I use a little clip of it tweeted it out and

Quite short story and the we did online and then it can blow up from there and modern journalism.

Are you surprised it took off as a story narrated? Yeah? I was seeing me night when I saw the footage it sort of seemed quite powerful unit especially the way he was it was quite a bit rant about shouting but I guess I mean there was another story as we'll talk about in a second about Chris Williamson that day and inviting Jackie Walker who is it a suspended labour member into parliament and he has a bit of a history of doing things that are you know pretty provocative was the Jewish community answer me this seems like just another one of those things.

I knew that it might get a bit of pick up.

I was I was fairly certain that the Labour Party we're probably going to take any action on it, so I was really surprised when it got loads of reaction from quite left wing commentators.

You know Corbyn allies.

Did you get the sense or have you heard something new that there was an orchestrated campaign by labour MPs to really get mine the story WhatsApp groups of different MPs and on different issues.

It wouldn't surprise me if it had been said of shared around an MPs at political allies and decided you know this is the moment we really need to push when we really need to put pressure on that actually get the leaders office to take action but I mean I get the sense as well that there was a kind of more of a natural surprising it were people in Westminister that would just like this.

Is it we've had enough, so I just can't tell what's going to really kick off and not with going to talk about rich series of the story which are Jewish News break in just seconds before that when you got the video.

Obviously you're conscious.

You want only screwed you have an inkling or a worry that someone else to find it first and no not really just because it's one of those two Facebook group itself is public, but it's one of those you know one of those many kind of Lee

Hidden Facebook groups not a lot of people go on Sheffield momentum is not going particularly, you know well well visited as it is as a thing but your hours.

I mean I was conscious like as soon as I got it.

I want to get it up within the hour go to respond back of Yorkshire Post respond.js.

Mitcham sincerely to their the news editor those guys.

Yeah, I mean they were they were very supportive and aftermath because we obviously got a lot of was a bit of push back from people that is supportive of Chris Williamson we've and there was a Morningstar front cover that was basically you know slagging off the Yorkshire Post in saying that there was at do some sheep ocracy around us Publishing and opinion Pieces by somebody that have been accused of racism in the past and you know James was very vocal about saying that's a load of rubbish and I shouldn't have my reporters.

Did it get into the print edition cos you've broken online didn't make it into the paper.

It was too late at that point it was it was very much just an online story at that point I had an ad approach to Sheffield

Simple comment and labour and they both said no, we're not interested so basically all I had was that video so I just thought let's check this up online we did plenty of coverage of the backlash the day after and the suspension role of that original story that didn't go in the print edition of the paper and you know that the auction posters.

We don't not every so it wasn't paper goes online and vice versa the run parallel to each other in the eye when you look at that story because of the video is a Twitter story ru motoring Richards story which she had in Jewish News Richard just talked briefly if you were just consider what the school was that you had last week before the Yorkshire Post came along we thought we had the Chris Williamson school, which was Jackie Walker who has been suspended for a long time and I think her she's 8 months away.

I thinks from Mum home investigation.

It's been delayed for a long time anyway Chris Williamson hired a room in parliament for her to screen a video.

All about anti-semitism houses near what are you prepared to tell us where where you got your story from you know about this is be very honest about Sheffield meant to be looking at Facebook groups.

Can you tell us where you got your story? I don't say anything other than it was a source we are going to have heard that before they should you consider ways to story about Chris Williamson should appear in the same day.

Do you have a sense that someone might have been leaking against the Nazi the same person potentially but that Chris Williamson is is corbyn's outrider in many respects he he's somebody with a long rap sheet.

He's somebody who's and been poking and enjoy being an intern with the Jewish community for a long time and interestingly at the see now.

He has been suspended it took awhile.

I think was a notice investigation that was issued against him and the Labour Party which generally reacts with all the speed of a tectonic plate actually spent 24 hours.

I think before it finally write spended him ok and now yeah.

It's on the Creed on the specific point many hours is William Davies Williams with suspended.

These is apologise.

I will talk to you in a minute which about the

Empty about Jewish news passivity and at the business model for specialist publications, she took out a lot and check if you do that, this is so little Gems and we often talk about the lobby and the fact that down Jeremy corbyn's going to be a different relationship to the media to a summers breezes the Labour Party how much to how much access do you get to Colburn steam access is most generous and lobby some you know they decide what usually you know a leadership team is close to a couple of political editors that they particularly like and he was a little bit too.

I mean my guess would be that.

They are reasonably close to the mirror and because it you know they they have the episode of joints idea of what's important that you know the mirror is politically aligned with them.

Yeah, I be able to tell me when I was out there.

Not long ago.

What should I said you get to the Tories story readers when you're certain your readership of course.

I mean I get access to the Tories particularly.

I mean I took most of the MPs on our patch the auction Paisley we have to 17 avec toi MPs in Yorkshire in terms of access to number 10 we have daily Robbie briefings.

We have briefings from an intense spokesman, after hamsters questions you have a few numbers on my phone that I can that I can call up but you know I'm having recently junior journalist in Westminster a people that can pick up the phone to number 10 and talk to them any day of the week anytime they want to know Tim Shipman and then like but it takes a long time to get to that stage Potter 21st century Britain have you been trying to cover in Jewish News what you been trying to bring to this story that others can't well these stories have been going on for 4 years now and I don't see any.

The end in sight and the stories are just so multifaceted interlink.

They get there they Bleed into each other we have four or five pages of of a regular issue.

Just absolutely just all about the same subject tell us about your test papers as well as I'm holding a copy of Jewish news here to it's a small handsome newspaper.

How do you find it smaller handsome that the editor distribution Jewish newspaper in the country and we're currently facing the same challenges that all newspapers are facing we trying to find new business model new revenue streams and it's free and it is free 23000 copies inside the M25 began as a server 22 years and with a calling card of the community everybody and engages with it on a Friday say that but if what your first bit about the Calling Cardiff Stephen Pollard a very distinguished jurist was his yellow to the Jewish Chronicle he'd say that the Jewish Chronicle was the calling code of community is there a fierce rivalry between you two publications and Entente cordiale I fell down.

Do you have to lose it with one of your hax when there is story is happening in the Jewish Chronicle that you think should be done yours and I think there's kind of Our Mutual respect between the two papers especially I think in the current climate.

I'm at the papers.

Have work together in Factor last year we combined on the same front page United We Stand and when we wrote the same editorial on the front page which also got a lot of the major headlines as well.

So yeah, we have coordinated them in the past and potentially would do again great money we break-even but as I said it's the paper is the Lost leader at is the calling code for the community so we are a diverse brand now, so we do events are we having a vent week on Sunday which is basically an ideal home exhibition to the Jewish community with your something called night of Heroes last year which was like a pride of Britain Awards for the Jewish community with the wedding shows political q&as at we do events.

We do experiences for our readers and for our community and the papers the calling card and the and the way we amplify what we do in the community.

Be -18 years, did you earn when you started out at did you think you're going to do this long? I got made redundant by Rupert Murdoch 10 years ago and then they had a Jewish News came calling and I thought what life is a good.

Gary you got made redundant and then you got offered another ship.

I did yes, and then I thought well that this will do for a few months and 10 years later is the best we've ever had you have to say tell you what you going to do next Jewish Chronicle text Eva polystyrene.

You could do a little death a little jobs.

What band was very nice to see I'm sorry that weird with meeting is such a sad circumstances giving this rambling scandal, but then it's only giving this plenty to talk about thank you very much of the rich for coming in and take you to to Liz on to make your scooter last week and take it to Dan Reed of finding Neverland not finding Neverland ost.

Sorry leaving a flag which is on Channel 4 at this evening.

Thank you to you at home for listening as well remember.

There is a podcast version of this show which you can find on BBC sounds, just Google the media Show podcast in find it and hit subscribe.

Thanks for listening.

We're back at same time next week, goodbye.