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Read this: Media Masters - Will Young

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Media Masters - Will Young…

Media matters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game today Will Young award-winning singer-songwriter actor and co-host of The Homo sapiens podcast after winning the first series of ITV talent show pop idol in 2002 he released six consecutive chart-topping albums and phone number one singles.

He was also nominated for a Laurence Olivier award in 2013 for his role as the master of ceremonies in cabaret Will is a regular speak on issues around sexuality and mental health and is a patron of several charities.

He's just announced his return to music after 4 year break with the release of his seventh studio album.

Thank you for joining me you got nice nails.

Just looking at your fingers, but they're dirty you're not supposed to look and I'm absolutely horrified marrying a lovely thank you very much.

I want to see I think you're lovely as well.

Yeah, thanks for having me I promise to great pleasure tell us about the podcast then, where are the podcast? Yeah? I mean Chris is a great friend of mine we met.

He was a video director and we met on one of my videos that we actually murder party funny enough and I copied ip65 coffee done amazing eats animal film with an actor called emberson sundowner great activate and I loved it so I copied it for my website military copied it so you came up to me at the party and said I am Chris and I did this thing and I said oh my god.

I want to tell you that I copied copied and he really like that that I was honest it was it take me to the wake up mate when you already so probably hate me and he's got a meal and then we did a video and we've just stayed great friends and it's great thing about the creative Industries you just find your kind of pack.

You've always swapped ideas.

We did another video together and he said I think we should do a podcast and it's being LGBT podcast like Woman's Hour there's nothing in that's

Face and we're Woman's Hour don't you on Saturday you go clear when that's probably had sounds better and yeah.

We just started in his kitchen really very very rudimentary.

How many years ago was this probably two and a half 3 years ago? It's been quite a while now.

Yeah really successful.


Yeah, I mean we weren't we went immediately into the top 5 from the Apple charts and I just think the willy went into the top 100 50 so there you go, did you well no one is in this well that doesn't matter because I'm enjoying talking to you and we we we thought basically that there was there was obviously a space that needs to be filled you know and I didn't I didn't listen to I don't listen to podcast.

I don't and now I make a point of not listen to him because I don't want to start copying other people's and I worry that I would stop being.

Authentic and I think it's really important to be as authentic and in the moment as possible so Chris listens to a lot of them, but it's been brilliant and we've so do we kind of had a plan for it and we've got to where we wanted to go to a third season.

We went around America you met him on from the Sam Smith and that transgender rodeo star and wonderful to one of the biggest stars of this season has been Natalie the uber driver because as we went to different places we spoke to people and just press record ask them of course and we wanted to know Natalie with fantastic.

She was gay.

She is gay.

She's black and so she's representing quite a interesting cross section of a type of person in La in Trumps America and she started off by saying when I was 18.

I tried to kill myself because I knew I was gay mean that was the first thing she said to us.

She was the most inspirational women so it's funny we have very famous guest like Jeremy Corbyn Sam Smith I'm coming and really the ones that can often sign out the most of it everyday people I actually call them everyday Heroes I want to have a website called everyday Heroes where I just have 3 minute conversations with people because all around us there Are Heroes you know your hero.

I'm a hero we have things in our lives that we will have to overcome and no hero I'm lazy and I've let myself go over hey stop that offer still you stop that right now doesn't matter so you know that's why I love doing it.

Yeah and also we just get so many people writing in saying how much they needed that in their lives yeah, yeah it also if you don't it's great fun as well as nearly having fun as well.

Then we start talking and Matt are producer goes can we press record now because it's not we'll let you just start talking and I'm really proud of that that we haven't moved suddenly become more kind of broadcast three and Jasmine faith episode of fake fake laughter in fake.

I genuinely am Hitler the last one.

We did this week.

We were called on Mondays he literally is making me crack up he is so funny and that's why you such good friends and is very intelligent and I love listening and I listen back to what we've done.

You know to check it make sure it's alright.

I love the questions he asked and I love his intelligence and you not I genuinely love him as a friend so it's I think that's why it works and enhance the other things people liked hearing two friends talking about stuff.

We would talk about the stuff whether it was recorded or not.

We talk about what it's like to be in relationship.

We talk about gay shame we talk about you know.

Why Amazon parcels are driving as mad you know how we talk about why I think currently people is stealing my logs from outside my house now they yes, I think so, I'm thinking about getting a camera on it, but then I suddenly gone I wasn't about 100 quid olejnik that as well.

I think people are taking my logs.

I ordered a very large pallet of logs.

I mean literally they can get it into my tiny little front garden and now they're just there and then I thought well if people need to take the logs not yourself out.

I've seen loads of episodes of The Sopranos have kill him Kill em.

All it's the only way you've got to send a message right you know and actually that's a very good point.

I think I might just make my dachshund trying to go for their jugglers.

She's very very vicious, what kind of your hand I mean.

I know a shame as a regular theme of the interviews and and that Frank this for me was a huge change from like the pop idol error when your management said that you had to be kind of under threatening and not sexual.

Yeah, I mean that's just such.

The sign of where I'm at now.

You know I'm 40 look good for for now.

Thank you.

Yes, I love lot of work.

I just literally throw my face into a face masks and scare the dogs.

I yeah.

I just I don't I'm so different to then and I think you've just got to have no fear and if you have no fear no one's got anything on you they just don't because what someone going to say and I think it's very important that to no fear no shame.

You can have healthy shame.

I am I still in a book from the local light.

You know what I mean.

I'll be here and I do have a book should rightly be shamed for that publicly.

I don't care.

I threw it out.

I sort out the window in my phone, but it left it was the journal actually it's tough to have you heard it here the political quarterly.

It's in my study.

But I think if you own something so I own things there's nothing that anyone can say it's like one that I ain't that that's fine.

Yeah, so that's very important and also now.

I'm older I've got things worked out of my head.

You know what it is to be getting to be long time to get over gay shame and even know what it was like 34 and if you think about it.

It's faintly ridiculous that we have a society that shames people for their sexuality and I mean I don't care what anyone sexualities and I mean that in a nice ways.

I think it is I think it's there's always going to be you know the hardest things his kids because you know kids want to particularly boys the thing is that to be cold day at school is the ultimate kind of keeping black card if you've been marked with that in that you might see what you can Snow White kids why the rate of suicidal thoughts of suicide or attempted suicides almost twice that much.

Young heterosexual heteronormative boys because it is like having a black mark on your own you become a social pariah in that moment and the reason for that.

Is it is the ultimate shame you know shaming tool how that can be changed which is brilliant now.

It's from a younger age.

Where are you now? I've read some stories on CBeebies about to Papas it's cold and my youngest nephew nephew Maxwell he's ate absolutely love that story.

He just can't get over the fact that someone might have to Dad's you think it's he thinks it's the coolest thing in the world.

He doesn't care about two guys thing is we put the agenda as adults on kids bisexual lighting it it on sexulising it you know but we think no you can't see those stories the kids.

They think about a man bombing another man.

It's like with kids don't care.

They just need just want to know that people have it.

Weather in Isle how great is that so I think if we get in at that level which people are now it would change the whole agenda of them what it is to be gay when you're 11 and you know but we've got to get in young and unfortunately.

I think people are so hung up on the sexual act what it is to be with someone you know the sexual act of a man being with a man is still people are obsessed with weird.

It's very weird, but it's kind of an English thing we are obsessed with sex will be said of hate it so myself and adjusted it.

Just seems you know still so to the Vile and disgusting to adult kids because we've grown up in that kids take care, but even heteronormative married couples and manowar live in my 25 years.

They're not shagging either well.

It's exactly is a generational thing like another decline of religion and the fact that you can read it every single incremental generation of becomes more and more.

Known it is becoming more and things like your podcast frankly yeah, I think that's done a lot and I think probably you know me being a popstar who was gay from the beginning of his career publicly gay know that makes a difference of course it doesn't all those people that came before me.

I'm in my god.

You know I sent there's a phrase you know you stand on the shoulders of giants and certainly I just stood on the shoulders of giants 8 pave the way so it does get better with Every Generation and now these stories are just I just brilliant Chris and I hoping to do some more stuff with kids with stories and George Michael without it and I remember feeling very sorry form of the tank is the narrative at the sounds like he withheld it from as a miss letters like his sexuality is something to be ashamed of our business.

What he does in the bedroom with care is where are the narrative was so different then and of course you know when you're a pop star sexuality and being sexual can be pa.

How to being a popstar you know and that's can be embraced in a very healthy way so I remember when I knew I wanted to be a popstar.

I knew that my sexuality would come into it because people who in Poplar, Dordon in a slightly and often satellites so for me.

I was it was going to be a case, but I think it just becomes so much more heightened then, so yes certainly what happened to George Michael The what you did was brilliant.

You didn't came out with a video called out so I love remember it when they get urinals turn around and there was a genius set up you know he was it was all for you.

Set up by the police will fulfill this is awful, but I watched failed the video for that idea en Vivo per couple of months ago.

I mean you was hopefully this whiskey with Captain hindsight.

I think so he's dancing with vertigo flamboyant.

I think people just so different now.

You know if you don't even care Hermione said to me 16mm interviewed Sam Smith

You know and that's the way it should be but I remember years ago when I used to do promotion in Europe I go over to Holland Mrs Right the beginning and no one will even ask me about myself not aggressive cook.

Play literally would not ask me who said not of interest in the know so that you know that that was just such an interesting marker for at the time where the UK was and where are the countries were but then of course you know if I went to America I remember even 6 years ago going on American Idol and I spoke I was doing an interview and I mentioned a boyfriend and I'm not joking the person for the record company came in a cup of phone call off, because she thought I done something she said god no cut it off you know so therein lies the difference between every lots of countries and what's it like to eat to be famous in to be so don't be so recognised Amy night and also many people seeking either a friend of mine.

She's an actor whose in Game of Thrones and you she finds it quite.

Stressful actually does people always want the selfie they feel that they are big up soon as he always than herself and she has to be in a hurry to catch something just to apologise to give the most frightful looks and so hopefully she stuck up you just have to become very boundaries.

You know and I'm really into boundaries and luckily because I've done internet phrases a lot of work on myself.

I'm very boundaries and I just I don't give a shit if someone you know it's it's not for me to control.

How someone reacts to if I say I really can't do this time with my nephew and Toys R Us or whatever you know.

I don't care and I've had that in our have had people go someone I remember when I was my van is broken down coming back from a festival.

I've got an Old Bedford van and you know she wanted to self in my van was literally blowing up and I said I can't do it now.

So are you stuck up but you know very occasionally that gets upsetting but actually it really.

Doesn't it really doesn't bother me honestly, it is not top of my list on all van.

So I just bought a note counters will kill me.

I've just bought an old Honda scooter from the 80s.


It's so cool got 200 quid in Holland I love him anything old I love him and I'm a child of the 80s.

So you know I want a mark 2 Escort XR3i and you'll I have trying to get one of the original Mustangs I found one but it's like 150g an addict R4.

I've got a new one.

I love the heavy things.

I want a new one.

I want the Old the original one you got a great the great fun.

You know what I can spend my money on cars and under I don't have very flashy collection.

It's my collection.

I love it.

Do not like Jerry Seinfeld then where you get stuck in your on traffic now, but I'd love to do that.

I mean if I could if I could be Chris Evans I would yeah.

The Hanger with Yahoo account becomes like tastes, you know if it's all relative if you've got that money fine, but he's I mean listen.

It's basically collecting matchbox cars when your kid is just the same thing it is I love it.

I've got a Tesla now as well.

I love that.

I know which one are the P90 which is yes, ok yeah.

Yeah, they really need anything about electric as it fits like a glove Knight Rider when I was literally drives itself had no Porsche 924 that look like the Knight Rider car cancel that but yeah, it's a there's electric cars incredible City spend your entire leisuretime.

Just forming the pages AutoTrader I've got a few friends.

I just love it.

I just like seeing the price of them and we should work as podcast the media shape anyway.

Yeah, it's just the passion and my

How many a car mod with my mum? Who is what 67 she drives Nissan GTR and it's a pretty much a supercar ideal 350 Z Roadster how are you? I was one of the quickest rap ever been in my life and she's got an Audi RS4 I mean, she's she's my grandparents collector cards image of a car family.

I must be down at Somerset cliche questions asked but they cannot downsides to pay my man.

You haven't spoken quite Camberley about how are you recovering from post-traumatic stress disorder on Strictly I mean? No that wasn't cuz of strictly forgive me.

Yeah, but forgiving you know I was ill going into strictly I try to get out of it.

I really did try and get out of it and I unfortunately I wasn't strong enough to remain bound read actually on that because actually it was a lot of stories in the media know about how you know ITV and all of his organise it all of these broadcasters that creates these shows a duty of care to the people that star in his relatives could their stuff?

Ring from Cena traumatic episodes.

I think that they offer counseling to people who've been on Love Island in Soho that think they have to give him what someone just told me yesterday.

Didn't know they had two people that killed themselves running around I don't watch it, but I I think I am I didn't duty of care now was a great thing and I'm pleased that that's coming to enter TV in general and film and Theatre and I know the last Shogun in the theatre was great sense of duty of care.

They were very big on it actually or come to the credit.

Yeah absolutely I took a week off because I was getting a bit too much.

I was burnt out so I said right.

That's it.

I'm taking a week off the good thing is now that the climate changed you know a producer cannot go that's not good enough.

You know so when I knew want to take a week off.

I went to my psychiatrist said I just need you to write a note basically you know because they're gonna need it for the insurance would ever write the note wedding.

Is the note I'm off for a week and I at the thing is I have no problem with that because I'm much better looking after myself having left strictly at its on the best thing that ever did in my life turn down 100 grand at which has been paid you know all the potential benefits of it best thing I ever did because now I know what I can leave at any stage.

I'm not trapped.

There's nothing worse than feeling trapped and now people.

Can you know bosses and you did a lot of work with big exacting and you can't and I go into companies and talk to them about their mental health and and and tell them how I can organise their companies and use myself as a model because I'm my own employer and employee I'm schizophrenic and I think it's called multiple personality.

That's it.

I'll take that and you know I just say look this how you can do it and bosses now.

Can't ignore them employee but why should they not only because of the ear?

Fix that they they should take out of the people that they have a duty to but also it's not good for business frankly tongue burnt out and now he's that's what I say.

That's what I say exactly and I think also it's not good for their brand.

You know can't might not go to a brand that have a bad record on on well-being and monks their business within the within their business within their offices.

She's not good for the Brandon it certainly would be why companies like ITV there probably shitting themselves in Oldham it the course.

I like someone's killed themselves me know better grapple this back.

It's not that it's their responsibility, but what if it makes them have her but you're not a better regime next time you and that fewer people than suffer that goes mental and yet, then then it Frankie's it's worth it something good to come out of it should say yes definitely and um it's incredibly inspiring.

How old when you are at all of these things because again you know we took took the six answered him, but even mental health was stigmatized perceived as not being man later number from pan.

They used to call it a shellshock.

Didn't know where people suffer mental health problems, but it was something that use a shameful thing to be hidden and certainly not discussed openly totally and I think it's got to be discussed something for myself appropriately and you know contain them in that I don't go in tonight.

You know my local cafe and go can I have a lot in and by the way? I'm having a panic attack you know it is it's got to be contained in that way, but I think again is that thing of like if it's open and it's being shouted then the same goes in ok same as 50% of any problem most the time is it in my opinion so get it out in the open I get a given example so my friend rang me last night and spoke to him for a bit and I moved house and he's got new fella and he's really happy in those things music in you rang me and he said I have I have I done something to offend you cos I feel like we haven't spoken for a few months.

And I'm worried that I've said something like that then he said I don't be going over my mind in my mind of things that I've said that you will probably offended by he said so I'd finally decided that.

I just need to call you.

I said I'm so pleased you call me know you haven't phoned me and I'm mentioning it because he bought it out into the open over 14/40.

I need never actually checked in to the sauce and gone you no arguing with a willy my head of the actual will that Leanne and we don't check in with the sauce because we worry that they're going to think we're mental you know tonight what you know we don't want to do it but if I have said something to a friend or I feel awkward about it now.

I get in touch them pretty much into Sunni and so I'm really worry.

I offended you then cos then I stop the Chatter in my head and they go don't be silly.

No didn't offend me at all so I stop it but I never used to check in without because I'd be worried.

It's a weird site.

I be worried that they would think im mental you know what you mean when you put me some water you worried you offended me.

How stupid are you course no friends going to say that no friend of worse anyway, because we're terrified about what others think of us in the odd.

It's very old you can see with I mean.

I was guilty this is Yvonne Elsa with people on Instagram everyone's just trying to show off and say look how great my lifestyle is now.

It's not even about shiny things like cars is more than that.

It's a look at my lifestyle.

Look at the great days.

I'm having everyday because it's not the full truth, because it no one puts their totality they live on Instagram page 9th 10th of my life is boring work graft on friendship and one of the things we should have said was the people that we should have support from at the very people that we trying to impress which is a friendship group.

It's crazy.

We're all trying to keep up appearances with the very people that we shouldn't be having to keep up appearances the problem.

Is it sometimes when people share we might share with the wrong person and this is what I learnt after had a breakdown because I'd highly recommend their there were two camps of people ones that were emotionally able to cope with their own stuff, so could handle me saying I'm feeling miserable today and ones they couldn't the ones that couldn't go in the bigger category, so I had to quickly learn which friends could cope with their emotions, so they could handle having a adult conversation open and all those friends.

I am now so much closer to and then it's a two-way thing.

They share with me is wonderful Chris and quickly basically Chris and I used this as an example.

There's a power invulnerability isn't there totally and we just don't want to be vulnerable.

It probably goes back to childhood.

You know where our emotions we're not validated and so it just carried on but I must say the best thing that I ever did was open up to friends, but the worst thing that can happen is if we open up to a friend in the invalid data.

Cos then it's like so it's like I feel ashamed of feeling this and now you just completely invalidated it and that that's really difficult and a tough thing that as you rightly said earlier.

Is that says more about them from giving you 100% but you know it's very hard to see that so I always say to people when they say what can we do about mental health you what would you recommend you one piece of advice? I say openly share with people who you trust is often.

What we do is we come in.

It's really I find it fascinating because I like studying it often.

What we do is we open up because in our childhood.

We've opened up and that's been reviewed.

We then just search out people that we going to open up to who will be cut again.

Do you know what I mean?

Anakin vicious circle it's a vicious circle Twitter used to that our nervous systems used to that be no brains used to it.

So it's that's why people getting the wrong relationship, so I actually you know sometimes when they kind of get better and more well.

They often friendships group friendship groups will change a lot because we suddenly look at our friends to go see if I haven't had a drink in about 89 years, but I had drinking buddies back in the day and you're I'm still Facebook friends of them if I see you in the street.

I don't have no desire to sit in a pub within for 5 hours and get pissed.

That's the thing I mean that's a very common thing.

I know and I had that when I stop drinking and it suddenly there were certain friends that I realise my god after two drinks.

We just talk about something you know and What I Might Do I Want to for the rest of my life on a Friday and Saturday night.

I find it amazing that drinking people think teetotal is a boring because everyone says

The doll it's really fascinating that it is and again it comes back to people when they're having a problem like if you're vegetarian people go know what do you think they take it as a personal review and because they're being judged for drinking.

That's what I find so I don't drink and then they can sell anything but you're judging me but they don't I mean I don't anyway so be there.

No that's very interesting and a tough one really tough one.

I mean I never thought that I could go on a date without a drink.

I never thought I could go to a club and dance without a drink people think they can't dance and have sex without a drink there.

We go say I've had another ends with never had never had sex where they've not had at least one glass of wine in the UK and that's fine.

You know that doesn't matter in many ways, but I certainly wanted to challenge that in myself and done a whole Society is predicated actually on alcohol.

Yeah, you know if you have a great day in at work.

You have a drink to celebrate if you have a terrible day.

Have a drink to commiserate weddings.

Things special occasion today everyone's out to get drunk and I think it's really of that Society views alcoholism and I cannot really binary way like your eyes are an alcoholic basically a boat ramp or you're a high-flying reality is everyone's on a Spectrum total I have a lot of friends are about 4 and 1/2 out of 10 they just they are drinking for the wrong reasons often to excess, but it's not yet ruin their lives well functioning alcoholics.

I mean basic.

I'm addicted to cigarettes mean about was alcohol.

It's where you drove isn't it seekers smoke in the car? Yeah? I love it.

So bad.

I will never buy a car if you the Lost Inca factory stinking the amount of times I get told off at my rent when I rent a van or something.

Yeah, I was drinking as much as I smoke my friend is an alcoholic and I said him look your choice of drug is alcohol my choice of drug is cigarettes made was a drug is sugar addictive like biscuits really hard.

It's horrendous so I can give it up and relapses.

I was sugar free for 5 months last year order and then thank you, but then I was at a wedding there some homemade Brownies and they look delicious another how many one of them and I was back on eating any other crap and you know what hear you say that I think you know really relate to I can literally just walked down a whole chocolate bar.

No problem and a big one been like 3 minutes or yeah.


Yeah, I noticed that when I stop drinking actually.

I just literally just want chocolate and of course.

There's always me something replaced but the key thing is that I really try not to say myself for it now.

You know what I mean pictures of my cat is no point in you but we save ourselves.

Yeah, you know my work done it again.

I'm such dreadful person.

I'd never talk like that to anyone what I say to my friend is look you choose alcohol other people choose Saxo people to shopping people choose types of friends that they have everyone has it is on a Spectrum the very few people that don't have addictive personalities and the ones that don't know probably.

Be prepared very good childhood to be honest.

You know well and we wish them well does it? I don't I hope we can meet you outside now.

Just want them yet again.

Does it help though the in our society that you're kind of other person who's famous and as an artist that you can of commoditized and people don't think that you're human being that you're will off of Pop Idol I really you know I would be lying if I said because of my job there problems.

No, it is actually the opposite.

I wouldn't know I wouldn't be doing mental health talks if I wasn't famous you know I wouldn't be doing stuff with animal charities.

I wouldn't be doing my music which I love but won't be doing the podcast.

I wouldn't be writing a book on gay shame that would you know all these things to do I get out of stuff because I'm famous is wonderful.

I don't read anything that people say I don't.

I'm not I don't feel like I'm a commodity.

I've got a really good way of protecting myself.

I've worked out the way now that I I just really see my music as in which is tied in most least being famous and because I'm really at the forefront of that, where is if I'm acting I can hide behind a part in there an earthquake.

That's just like paint dress up as a kid and I just keep it in its box so like I found out yesterday, but my song the new song of done.

It's gone straight to the highest rotation on Radio 2 and it's record of the week now.

That is joyous news congratulations.

Thank you.

It's wonderful news and I have to modify myself and not get to elated and the reason is I used to get so elated and completely rely on my joy being whether I got that are not does that make sense because record it won't be record of the week in a week from now.

It's actually so it's like I have to just be a little bit more like that wonder.

No, think it's brilliant.

That's so cool, but not go on a big.

Hi cuz what I used to do is go on a massive high in a massive load.

They must have higher than a massive loan, and work was a disaster because of it.

You know Krusty the Clown once famously said he wanted incredible highs the terrible laws on the creamy middles and I have a good way of keeping it in its place and of course like look I'm not Gandhi you know you know of course it oscillates in and then and sometimes it doesn't work and you know I literally buy new even though we we say we shouldn't commodities you week.

We literally are doing that.

We does where I was buying his CDs that really shows how old I am.

I but not downloading your music and if you're not even an executor on ITV or BBC when they're putting on a show it is kind of giving you a celebrity Mark out of 10 at their commercializing.

He will drive that when he was or listeners.

Yeah, and that's business.

You know the Entertainer it matters and it really doesn't matter you know I'm not going to be on the street.

The kids you know who are dying all over the world every day, so I put it in perspective.

I just said the joy of something realising that none of it matters is wonderful because then everything's a bonus that it doesn't matter really doesn't matter.

I just know I have to bring it back to basics.

So I that's why I don't get stressed because before I mean it could become very stressful because yeah, you're worth is based on in popping in my industry is very much based on how many followers do you have on Instagram and that become really soul-destroying because I think I'll garden I don't have enough so I can only get on this show.

I what can only get this sponsorship know what God that person's got a million followers, so I just make sure that I'm very disciplined about not going down that route you know.

This is very addictive but also like let's say you have a million followers on something won't why did that make it up he wants about the next out of 1.1 million that stuff that's the problem.

Isn't it? It's not indicative of any any kind of worth in any event anywhere when not to disrespect see Kim Kardashian but she's like 45 million followers on Twitter mean the thing is I think where it gets mixed up.

It's that will be very good for her business so it becomes an addiction in there and I have lots of meetings with people that I absolutely hate my way not a people with meetings and they go this is how you can get so I didn't say for me because it doesn't work.

I didn't go to meeting with Twitter is not anti Twitter I went to meeting once before and I am just not into that realm.

I don't want to try and get more followers.

It feels so inauthentic other people loved it and that's great, but I can't maintain my authenticity and hold my shape when I'm in that realm it stresses me out I feel insecure and I feel less than and I want to do.

Not playing the part of Will at that point is don't like it.

I don't want to feel less than I don't want to feel I'm like I just be I am going to get that enough in life without putting myself in a place.

That is unsafe for me social media is a brown that I feel fundamentally unsafe.

I really don't like it's the old thing is they're going onto Twitter walk it a good thing is I was like walking through a room where oh yeah.

I just don't like it.

So I have people that do social media for me casian the I posted and it's quite fun but very rarely cause it terrifies me so just stay away from it.

Do you ever come of leverage your celebrity Status to make it and like I said difference in society by don't mean that kind of cliche mean for example like you had Jeremy Corbyn on as a guest talking about LGBT rights and giving him a political grilling is that something you like him is it also helping reframing the narrative because frankly I like Donald Trump like Jeremy Kyle be like meeting old white bloke sweet.

We can't know what it's like to be gay or discriminated against.

Frank have not suffered that discrimination well.

I think you know there's a great thing of like we can all recognise our privileged and that's all we can do in anywhere we come from my middle class white XL you know I've had it easy in anyway.

So you will have both look good as well.

So that opens doors.

Yes, and it was actually just Flash flash a smile that there's nothing better.

There's nothing I love more than leveraging my phone to bettering a cause and bettering a cause for people that I don't think can fight their corner.

So I'll go hell for leather unfortunately sometimes.

I'm a bit rude, but you know I wouldn't do it for my music but my god I go for it big time with you in Widnes Corbyn wouldn't come on you it would be interviewed by you unless you were had a look strong following he wants to be seen to be interviewed by you but on the other hand that's an opportunity view to educating and holding to account I think so and also you know I had a

Sing with with Nicky Morgan when she was education Surrey and I'll have to watch my tongue on this and that they're in the end long boring story but in the end.

I said I'm just gonna stand outside your office with a sandwich board telling you how many transgender kids try and kill themselves which is 54% over half you know fine if you don't want to meet me how to stand here you know I just and I'll do that.

I wouldn't do that for my music because that small serving me but if it's serving other people I get really passionate and a little bit of my mum comes out and I get I can cider lose my rag sometimes but I just won't take it won't stand for a won't stand for people who won't look after particularly young people in a night.

Why would you not be doing this? It drives me mad.

It drives me mad the politicians talking this ridiculous language when they say nothing you know that that really need.

The way the politicians talk has to change now it has to the way they talking House of Commons is it's like an old boys club for it's disgusting this is you know it's disgusting the way to self teach other you don't get that in your New Zealand Parliament now that we know their prime minister is amazing and she's respected.

I don't listen.

What if you think about Theresa May I don't think I've got an opinion, but they fitting showerwall politicians come on the radio and they say nothing just human being they don't know they need to change it.

It's like a gladiatorial combat weather trying to beat John Humphrys with a dick is crazy is crazy.

Just talk normally.

They don't give you anything so they are terrified of getting the present get a sound bite that they can use against them yet.

Will the will frankly I know they will and it was an interesting one because I I do empathize with them.

I'd like they have the right to be paranoid as a paranoid person thinks people like to get them.

Where's a politician acknowledges the

Reality that people are out to get them but how great how great if you have a politician that goes yeah, I know I said that yet and I made a mistake or Amber not allowed.

Lol yeah, that's what I said.


It's a shame that rhyme with that but then that suppress.

I know I know it's really complicated.

My friend is head of Prestwick conservative and I know it's complicated but I just think it has to change I mean someone like I have to say that's why I like someone that Nick Clegg he is actually quite normal person any tools in the normal way, I was like naked the weather weather agree with his politics of Norton you know him.

Where is Tuesday new job is now but at least he spoke like a human being and they just don't and I don't I don't think they can fully just say it's because of the press if they want to change the gender they need to change it.

You know what I mean because I could be like that.

I could sit there and you can take I mean.

Bullying clips sound Bites from this interview and it could be split a billion different ways, but let's just say anyway, that's my rant over.

Why do you think he's obsessed with public Bathrooms and end defining people by their binary gender me like you look at slavery look and emancipation of women and gave it was always like one thing that the biggest and the stick in the mud seem to obsess over at the moment.

It's you must be the man who must be a woman gender is it up get on with it when I go to Starbucks old gender neutral Bathrooms and problem solved near Great that I think it's some I mean definitely for transgender people.

Do you know they're really there's so much prejudiced against them and I think what it is.

It's always here.

You know because ok his I mean is a bit of Krakatoa got to go with anyway.

My family dogs have all of us.

Is a Siberian husky German shepherd and she goes for the post but sometimes but dogs off and go for postman, because they wear hi-vis jacket and hi-vis jackets Fizz around for dogs eyes and so they scared because if effectively they have been something fitting walking towards them.

There's also an element of them thinking their defending The Pack totally that that's their job totally because they don't understand.

What what it is and they're scared they go on attack and that's what people do if they don't understand they can't get their head around what it is to be transgender.

They go on the attack because it because it rocks their identity if we can't understand something and our whole identity is based on women going those lose men going those lose if you can't modify yourself from being more fluid.

You're going to get scared and it's going to rock your world and we didn't interview with skin.

I'm from skunk Anansie and she said a great things she said just give people a moment.

She said was she's living in the countryside is a black bisexual women did never seen a black woman or bisexual women you know in Rock do you want to meet and she said I just had to give people a moment and I think you're going to get over the fact is a black bisexual.

Yeah, because she was like they've never seen someone like me before so I've just got to give him a little bit of a moment and I think that's something that I try and keep in my head.

I cannot force people to immediately understand something but people have to respect it.

Don't you judge the worth of a person there by their ability to genuinely empathize.

You don't be able to see the world through the lens of someone else be at the dog or you are a black bisexual.


I do find it hard and also particularly because you know the people that I like to be around a liberal thinking people that flex.

Eleanor thinking in Deal voted remain let's be honest, let's be honest.

You know and of course I do find it difficult and I'll go for someone when they start becoming ubiquitous.

There was a wee interviews guy call Andrew Moffat I had master of school in Birmingham year introduced to the initiative called no outsiders 99% muslim.

School sounds inclusive very you know he didn't want to what his thing was that he said to parents.

I'm not going to tell your kids that you should say that being a free sample is right because your religion and basically your life.

You know you the way you live your life is based on one of those strong Pillars in your religion your religious beliefs.

He goes all I'm saying is let's understand and have it for the policy that we welcome people and we have no outsiders.

We might not agree with it and I think it was a

Very good way of looking at things I say I actually the other way and I can see now that would be so gentle so he went well, but I get why you so that is a great sample of recognising that I would not go in a debate with someone to try and change their views that being gay is that they agree with it so wasting my time? I don't need to you know but what I do ask for is respect and empathy like you said and understanding and there's a difference between the two so when people start going into attack mode then you've got up you got to defend yourself.

You know so it's it is sad when people do go to attack attack mode, but you know I got two kids and friend he's got a kid who's

Transgender and she's now you know change the name and she's going wearing the right school uniform for her which is a dress and the school because of legal rights now.

They have to give her either gender neutral bathroom or allowed to go into the girls bathroom.

They can't not and that's brilliant.

There's another example of the compost changing if that makes sense and my friends have gone about it brilliantly and they looked up the law and then they went into the school and when he is the law we need a gender neutral progress by the government.

I mean that's just wonderful was fantastic.

So there are brilliant changes happening even as recently as 10 of 15 years ago.

We were debating with a gay people could get married on a civil partnership to me now.

It just leave it seems like something from 100 years ago even now when you look at me to New Look at all these things that when he was prime minister people saying.

We do be going to bring civil partnerships in Prime Minister work that leads inevitably to gay marriage and he had to give up yeah.

Why not well, that's been a great thing you know we are ready great stage for so many things like the great thing about embracing difference is you just Embrace the world more and you can't even brace yourself more because we are all different we all particularly at school.

I think we won't be the same.

You know it's like I've got the latest Nike I hope you know I want the latest Nike you might not want it but you feel you have to fit in after all the latest Now yummy last order list everything latest phone just because I'd like well.

I know I want the latest phone yeah.

Yeah well if you can afford to have anything but it is based on survival quiz kids you survive by not standing out you know but actually when I was a shed in poverty, isn't it? Because when I couldn't afford it.

I was raised on in social housing in York and sometimes we couldn't afford things and because people that have I remember when I was 2.

Filofaxes rule the reign of upper middle class families all came into school with filofaxes loads of money in all that I couldn't afford one I did knock off one and it was it was obvious to straight up.

That's not a real filofax people like looking for the identifying Marks and when they were there you go off the market Paul your pool near that's how that I haven't experienced that so I I empathize with that and my sister's kids have experienced that because they went to two of them went to private school for the first up to work after 11.

I think and I know there was some parents because my sister doesn't drive around in a Land Rover in Gloucestershire where hunter Wellies you know and they were they said we don't want you going round that house this we have some plants in here.

We have some plants in York that have immense wealth one of my clients friends has five kids and each one of them has their own nanny driver and chef.

Is this serious wealth that is just nearly back.

I'm even comprehend.

It's just absolutely insane mine was Reebok Pumps the people had rebuilt idea was my everyone is different.

I might like liver you might not like liver.

You know so by looking and noticing how different everyone is your baby start loving yourself more his kids because it's only thing I don't have to like that music.

I might like that.

So it's brilliant because you start following your own individual path from a young age.

You know so just slowly introducing idea of that the fact that everyone is different it makes so much better Society it totally does so it's kind of win-win doesn't religion poisons everything girl because like you're gay and if my God says that you've been goes wrong and you can't question that are you?

Tell me what I can because it comes from Jesus that type of thing I think that's the thing and actually no, I can't question it because if that's your believe.

I'm not going to who am I know my brother told me once it was very very wise of him.

He said these people are basing their lives on these beliefs are never gonna change them if I have a breakdown and that's not what does how you get to bigotry cos people that just leads, aw thank blowing the mind is echo and terrifying so it's not for me to change it but don't you dare start attacking me Richard Dawkins once said to me you said you can't reason someone out of a position that does not reason themselves into my all-time favourite of all time.

How many times have you watched all his debates on YouTube Christopher Hitchens Christopher Hitchens genuinely cried when he died I beg I get smoke and drank as well.

He's the only exception for me I get sad.

Particularly that Paxman interview he did at the end.

He's astonishing that man I mean it's only thing is brothers and such as other different area of politics and everything different thinking they reconcile at the end of love always conquers hate.

It's great and also why can't someone have was just so interesting that such a dichotomy, but yeah, you can't you can't reason them and I'm not going to waste my time.

You know I'm I swear by my head against brick wall.

What you doing next then, because this is a media podcast us was weak this been so interesting that I should legitimise the wood and meet you in the podcast talking Media? I love to plait mean she gone back into music then on tune a big way.

Yeah, I stopped after leaving Strictly actually I've had enough and I was very ill you know and so I needed to stop for one and I don't do it anymore and so I should be then yeah, I'm in a slightly did that so classic.

Finger going occasional thing and then I didn't really genuinely didn't think I was going to do it and then I was doing this show and I was singing all the music in the show and I slowly when I knew this would have happened.

I said you got frustrated cos I said I would do the arrangement like that.

You know and had to sing with this band every night, but the bank and never play anything different.

Where is when I sing with my band you know I said moveable feast every night.

So they might play different called let you know now really promote that and it makes my heart seeing you know I love hearing them be fluid in their play you're gonna end up a jazz singer aren't you glad I've done Matt Goss is basically gone old job every weekend in The Mirage Vegas well.

I wrote a song so I thought will I go back onto I did a live gig during this West End show at the live gig with my band.

So I have quite Family Guy just don't talk again, then I wrote a song which is the ended up being the single.

Just crazy exciting even want to right anymore which maybe that's always the way and I don't have management and it that's made it a lot easier.

I'm not auntie the people that did manage me it just works better for me.

I have someone that manages my music but I don't have management and there is a difference Southampton a pressure and I did it.

I only write with two people which of my friends than in Wales and I worked with Richard exon producing the record again.

Who is brilliant and produced my best record anyway.

I think two records ago has been amazing.

It's been amazing and I only work work a full day week.

What do you do on the 5th day? Jeremy corbyn's only wants it allowed in you thinking Aloud that you've give it all up and just do gardening full to her yet.

Love that all my family garden is my sister's gardener my Mum's garden designer.

This is not a kind of adversarial hostile.

Casper can I put it to you directly into gardening is boring yes, cos you don't if you don't like it is also boring actually understand cricket.

I don't want to go to my grave having never understood it.

Yeah, the same as snooker characters ice play lots near Grand Arcade and it was a way for me to get to know my dad, because when I was a bit snooker players are playing in the snooker with him, but it's not about snooker is about me and my dad.


I suppose I just come from a family of it and I just find it I get so much joy out of it is really weird.

I mean it's just a lot of work and then you putting in a bowl and you go on and your property.

I know it's funny isn't it? I mean literally I've just taken order of 6 bags of compost before coming here and I am beyond excited about which will be my day off tomorrow Friday

About spreading that compost, that's why you didn't judge my dirty nails cause cause of the garden that you will have console out feel so much and I created God and designing is an are in a garden designers at erotic the minimum age is amazing.

I decided call Dan Pearson he's just incredible, but no I mean when I was 20.

I did when I was a gardener when I was 20 supposed maybe I did enjoy it then grown up with it though.

We know literally we spent our all our weekends outside, but it was just a childhood.

We instantly my family and not Swiss Family Robinson Sophie under no illusion, but you know it was lovely to do that and help my dad in the garden that was my thing as you play something with your dad, but I would garden with my dad and do a bonfire anyway.

I'm going to regulate hostility to him now then no don't I mean god? It is boring if you don't enjoy It's Alright listen to The Archers and I love the

What is that people think I'm absolutely mental yes, I too would really really than what I wanna listen to think father time is doing that really to generate token young listening.

No really know this intermediate podcast when you work 4 days a week.

What is that work then? Is it music and then the podcast what what do you actually what is it along well there isn't a typical day.

You know and that's wonderful sometimes.

I slightly crave it, but I try and keep to her to attend till 6 thing now and I won't look at my emails after 6 if that's my new thing I mean I can only say let's see what I do on Monday I did the podcast Tuesday I had a shoot with ranking for mental health thing and then I had to go have a meeting Spotify then ask her back to Camden to finish off the shoot and then I had to go back into town have another meeting.

Who is a lot of meetings and then today speaking to yourself and then I've got another interview this will be the best one will let you know after the next one and and then I go home.

You know and then tomorrow is unfortunate have to do a couple of things which really I couldn't put off I was to have the day off tomorrow is the day off see I've got to do just one the phone before you go on show you have to do it often do M3 research call unit on a bit seriously doll basically is what I'm saying.

It's a lot.

I will I spoke to my friend yesterday.

I love him.

I love you to bits military giggled the whole time and I was like I spend most of my time driving or moving between meetings and meetings in London NW6 and Alex cowboys anytime.

I'm really tired me out because that's not good for my anxiety.

I'm in smoking isn't good travelling.

That's the ball, Camel cigarettes.

But I find that stressful the Travelling really stresses me and I need to be outside in the countryside having freedom and that's what tyres me the meetings.

Don't you know I had 4 hours of work yesterday and 4 hours of travelling.

Do you know what I mean? I lived in London for 9/10 years and we sold our car the day before we moved to London and end the day we moved out we bought one.

I love driving but I would never drive around London even getting the tube looks like it will be a 50 minute walk the tube station have to change to you twice in again.

It's like that's what really turns me so so when I get the Friday off.

I don't travel anywhere I sit around with my dog's I do depending on how my anxieties that Dale I have to work on that that's a constant thing my life.

I go to the gym.

I've got this trainer now.

I'm seeing his trainer.

He's not romantic lyrics very handsome.

He's a MMA fighter Jesus rather than me.


I don't want to know know I did some kickboxing wants and they got my bro.

I went with my brother to Thailand do this my thai kickboxing and they made us power against each other as 37 then and he punched me in the face and I cry if that really hurts gotta do that's what we doing here.

I do this brilliant exercises with him so a lot of stuff on the Rings like the gymnastic rings and I just it's amazing I can build up my strength.

That's very good for my diet is where was the exercise and cardio ready helps it down really help, but isn't isn't appearing on stage two thousands of people and it been televised millions of people isn't I mean that would give many people are panic attack you get a is that the same.

Body lifting but it's really really good question because it is actually an adrenaline rush and I spent quite a lot of time thinking well.

Am I said of doing something that just doesn't work for me because I got I have a very dodgy nervous system and how am I doing something that's just crazy and weird.

I think a lot of performers get very bad anxiety.

So what are you going to step Up TV shows on fine because you don't see him.

This is the camera and what like 200 people in the audience.

That's fine if that and I grew up on TV I mean that snitched.

I was on a talent show so we were trained how to do it, so that's literally just liked walk in the park.

I mean I want to sing it well.

Obviously, so that's a bit nerve-racking near most nerve-wracking time never said it went on the most nerve-wracking thing about seen on TV is whether they get the sound right cos if the sound you rely on a sound engineer and if they don't have the same right you sent A Love so traumatic.

I can't because I don't think that.

I just think your return and if you want and I still have this now, but I'm much better at it if I'm wanting to get the sound right, but I don't want to sound like I'm difficult and that used to stress me out so much because it's like if I can't hear my ship.

I can't hear myself.

I won't be able to sing in to see that that is the only stress of thing about him TV lol so I mean I typed Hunter vocal training many many years ago when I first started to get a lot of presentations and it's all about breath control and some because one of the things when I used it very nervous giving talks 20 years ago was the nerves manifest themselves in poor quality vocal Delivery part of mind taking a breath in before you start speaking because nervous people have shallower breaths and therefore they run out of breath.

Yeah, that must be an extra stress that because the value not even said you got shaky how much you just put them in your trouser pocket your voice you can play again.

That's what you're selling.


I think I think I'm lucky because actually think it actually with the opens up my diaphragm naturally side.

Normally tend to feel better after I've done but certainly when I was very ill.

I mean there were times when I was meant to be on stage at 8:30 and I was on the floor.

You know I mean once my manager file mean I was in the fetal position on the floor in my bathroom Jesus at 8:30.

So that's why I took a break but now I'm better you know and you sound like you're a better person because of beer gone through that even though it was deeply unpleasant and debilitating and horrendous.

It's almost worth having done it won't Eddie the person you are I wouldn't go back.

I mean it is it's really hard work and I suppose I always always had it but I was having lot doing lots of behaviour to mask it.

You know or to try and avoid it like relying on highs and lows in the atom work all the stuff.

I just got back as a motorbike on the road less travelled by no well.

Yeah and the opening chapters of the opening line is life is difficult and in fact that you need to accept that embrace.

And because everyone has problems in the way to go about solving your problems in life is to go about solving your problems are not run away from them either through drugs or drink or just denial that that's only ever going to make it worse at my god easier said than done.

You know that you know I know I mean I was talking to my neighbour weirdly.

Just before Caroline and I was saying there's a great phrase that my wonderful therapist who was so capital PLC told me if I was your boyfriend.

I dump you and I thought that was a nice inside it how how is she was hospital on brilliant firm but fair absolutely and she said radical candor is the new frame and she said don't expect from people what they're not willing or capable of giving so there are I was in Treatment with a lot of people you know and we were a family and we all got to where we could get to.

It's someone that I was with my roommate.

He killed him so he hung himself and Jesus he and I love him.

You know and I think of him often and the reason I'm talking about it.

I hope it's not be sensational or try and elevate myself in some way to show all look for sympathy.

You know look how bad it was for me.

I I I think I'm using it to say that.

I he just wasn't capable of doing it.

You know and that's called look poor bloke and that's fine and he went and I actually was like I was there enough.

I was raised like many people were even in my generation my parents didn't do this deliberately or because they were horrible.

It was a generational with you, but I was raised to think that suicide was a selfish and was weak, and if it is one of the biggest things I've learnt that changes a human being is killing me something is not weakness.

You're going to kill yourself things must be.

Pretty bad I had respect for him.

I was like the game.

You know when I know a couple of people that killed themselves sometimes.

It makes me sad because it's someone that has felt suicidal quite often when when when and still can it with my anxiety is a trauma hijack if it takes over my brain you know I have to watch myself, but I know what to do.

I mean like literally it's really bad.

I call people I know what's going on and now I don't want to kill myself call the Samaritans in his they were brilliant and 0 cm in that they do after I did keep on forgetting ladies name but I thought I'm suicidal if you like me to the way we listen Debbie she was like my name is Mark I was there anyway Brenda and thus my sadness is that I think sometimes as someone that has been in that state and then come down fitter get it.

I think God just imagine we could have just got out of it.

You know it was it a takeover for you or were you really compus mentus? That's that can.

My sadness but I don't think it's selfish at all and I respect I respect where they ended up.

I'm like ok.

That's where you ended up the results on a family are horrific class and I don't know if you ever get over that because the heart of the stigma of mental illness as well go there.

You know if you've got motor neurone disease or something like that and you go to dignitas most people say well.

You know you're trying Your Best because it's a physical problem and can't be helped.

Where is it if your kind of caught on court merely depressed and you decide to do some of the Golden Gate Bridge of that selfish.

You know you would have snapped out of it will be just as real you write.

It's like mental illness is not a legitimate reason to kill yourself.

Where is if you've had your legs blown off that that is is it? Is it is it because things like that takes motor neuron disease.

People go to dignitas is it because it's so obviously seen and so there's not a gilt attached to either because people it's no one's thought that someone would have got cancer or motor neurone disease people were think can think it's their fault that someone you know if only I just asked how they were you know if only they just spoken to me.

You could have killed them.

You know what I mean and I will certainly have alleviated their suffering and listened and potentially been that you'll never know with you now, but I think you're right.

You know there's there's been times when it's been so painful eye member saying to friends.

I said you know this is not a way to live this is nowhere to live because this is not living there is no life quality here you know because I'm not involved in life.

I was so anxious.

I could not take joy from anything my dog's anything and I so I get it and like I suffered from debilitating panic attacks in my early twenties.

And it was really wedding in stressful situations and my hands would shake and if I was like drinking a cup of coffee in a business meeting I'll be worried about the tune of them seeing that and for about a year before to be drinking coffee in a business meeting would itself give me a panic attack so what what are the ways? I got out of it now, so I can drink coffee and business meetings now and have been able to 4 years but in The Awkward Yeti promised myself before I went into a business meeting that I would receive the coffee because then I wouldn't feel them because I'm not I'm not gonna have a coffee and you built it up now at I mean.

I was deeply ashamed of the time until very few people know I think we'll everyone's going to do these things it happened.

So they are you know hearing you say about the coffee in the meetings in your hand shaking you know I have a friend that he got so nervous about going to parties because his hands would shake lol come on little dimmer drink a lot of alcoholics are really worried about that.

They can tuna David if he were what would I have if I look?

Fibre diet coke asimina going to know so the trick is that you have a tonic water because the people assume.

It's got a gin and early when he asks interrupted some see because he was getting so panic about it.

You know and he was just very conscious of his hands shaking and so you know he had to CBT and we have the same and shops but also if it's handshake so what you know that thing is and I mean that positively you know that's I'm not judging because he's got bit shaky have some it might be some some peoples handshake because I have low blood sugar cause they all know they've got my BT whatever if someone has a shaky and I don't think you look at that person with shaky hands were that's the thing I don't know what they're going through.

That's the thing you know we always think I mean.

I sweat a lot was talking about it and I did have botox for it, but the guy said you're the only person I know in Europe to sweat through Patrick and I said that's a nice title to happen.

So often I pointed out so like I'm sorry.

I'm sweating into my

Grey sweatshirt called hyperhidrosis hyperhidrosis image of a shot on is autonomic nervous system, where am I can't control as if I feel as though because I can suit because I think I'll sweat into it and then do yeah.

I'm good and you can't judge.

Won't stop it now.

So what botox does it literally kills the nerve of gnomes it for six months of the evening your subconscious brain? Can't tell you sweat glands activate.

I will that didn't work and I think it's probably inside of my Alton today or tomorrow Sonic nerves autonomic that if you look at like films and TV and everything that I pay alpha male leader often has sweaty armpits.

I've but I tell you what I mean for me.

It was debilitating actually because I would get terrified about tv.

Because sweating will be humiliated Tony Blair when he gets up speech and it was a Sunday

Hot lights at Blackpool wasn't he didn't have a vest on and he sweated but you're my god.

It is it's funny.

Isn't it? It's it's a shameful that I had them when this shoot yesterday and she doesn't happen very often I hadn't slept well and I was getting panicky and sweaty and it was ranking taking it and I don't have video with him and he's a very well-known photographer and I thought he said you even though I knew him so I'll god have you asked me waiting an hour and sweating and I just said I'm just going to step out because I'm sweating and I said im having hot flushes and I need to sort it out and then the because I said that because I couldn't stay in front of the camera.

Cos it's getting worse I was getting in my head.

You know I was like.

Oh god it's getting worse it's getting worse and the worry drives more worried and the person the first aid II which is the person that runs basically any video shoot she got me a wet towel and put on my I take my shoes off because I don't have to shoot my legs and

But wet towel on my feet I wasn't sure if it at all, but yes, I would never of done that and I would have just got more and more stressed about it.

So there's a good example again.

I've just had to force myself to do it because I still get a shame.

I don't think you should feel shame for that.

I think you should feel proud because now you've discovered that the strength to persevere through it like everyone else.

I think it's the other thing is people too busy thing about so we are all thinking about me so I said yes, I would bankrupt about 12 years ago my dad said to me at the time.

You said no one really care because they're more worried about their own bills you know to worry about sharing you little sister wants to shame you for bankruptcy in there so judgemental you didn't anyone off you get on with it and now I have you things like that as like a parking ticket where I'm not if I get a parking ticket.

I'm not proud of it, but I'm not send if I do.

It's just everything have to pay it when you move on.

I'm about to go parking ticket.

Hopefully, we'll it's been incredibly interesting conversation probably one of the best.

I've ever had on the entire podcast I don't go that like oh my god, so no flipping out.

Thank you.

It's been great.

Thank you ever so much free time.

Thank you are right angles podcast in association with big things Media

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