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Read this: Media Masters - Mark Borkowski

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Media Masters - Mark Borkowski…



Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews of people at the top of the media game down John by markovski PR industry Legend he began his career as a theatre publicist at 19 and soon became known as the go-to expert for publicity stunts he started his own firm in 1987.

Where can we consumer brands and celebrities including Led Zeppelin Jimmy Page Eddie Izzard live nation Nissan Cadbury's Sony mark is a regular TV and radio pundit on the media celebrity and the art of publicity and has written two books Mark thank you for joining me greetings for how you doing strange actually I mean in.

Are you being how long you been asked me to do that I've been I've been banging on at you for years to get you in that chair if you can nail Lynton Crosby I thought I better consider it, but it is with me because you know that you did mention very kindly that in that intro, but I do like to comment on other people.

I don't actually like talking about myself.

Is giving out of hell there and it's going to be hard doesn't come easy to me cos I'm doing this for 2 years your hair like I've been doing PSI 15 years and I've got about a tenth of Talent and experience of you you can you just tell me what the secret is.

I've never worked a day in my life and I have a passion for people.

I've always had a passion for people stories people's Adventures and I've commercialize that I guess I was incredibly lucky unfortunate so I think I would get I don't know 10-12 emails a day from people wanting to get into PR you know people who hear me and speak to me to Adam I had my kids.

You know get into PR and I I lucked out I think that I had some a guiding spirit my father died when I should have been working harder getting into a university.

Was wants to be a history teacher I'm obsessed by history and then I thought maybe I should go to art college and then maybe you don't have thought maybe I should be a town and Country planning Andrew plans actually have desires that and that's how that so confused you know a kid is doing Milton Keynes would have look very different if you'd have been on the passage light switches Hannah deeply profound effect on me.

It was right in the middle of this or even the punk explosion I was fascinated by the Pistols and I became incredibly fascinated by Malcolm McLaren and actually realise couldn't see in complaisance remember actually.

I love the spec.

I could see what's happening.

I had an Instinct that read the enemy when it was the same thing to read every week in fact.

There's a front cover and blown up on my office wall of the Grundy you know some for letter expletive moment on Thames which made them and I thought this.

Is generating such a conversation about them and I wanted to be that person I wanted I then quickly but then you know University came bumping down to the ground because I've spent too much time.

I look at my own kids now.

Haha they work for therefore there exams and get through University I'd never was into that and I came to a different time and it was it was it was that year.

It was all the explosion going on there and I just thought you know how I woke up one day and what the hell am I going to do you know I was still love you know failed failed miserably getting into the various place that had it but at the end of university and I get a day I need to grow up and then come to my father's death was was was quite a wait and I did some sort of know Openshaw job, then.

Working in a pork pie factory 17/18.

How to get hold of wolves.

Are you doing telling pork pies? Are you selling them? You have I got this job?

That's pretty good at selling property and Yellow Tit I hated every moment of it and I went to work everyday and drove to this.

This is not long deceased little family planning Gloucestershire hillier's and I was miserable.

I was absolutely miserable and all my mates are University of Leeds and I was still doing this this job quite hard, but that's what I realise that money doesn't really isn't your company's compensation god bless my mother in the days when local newspapers advertise job to remember that there was a job that my mother spotted for a trainee marketing and general meeting General of management theatre in Swindon and and I thought my mum said she got to go for it when I got an interview remarkably I mean wasn't qualified and this this is nothing there things to happen in your life.

There are moments happened in your life.

The hostello Moments that actually change your course of life and some of them you bring on yourself and intentionally some things outside forces driving and I remember I was driving and I got the top of the road in theatre, Isle of the remember.

My friend was home from university Easter break a Happy Meal and I was returning the car now setting aside of me to you rang her go for it and I turn the wheel and I headed there and I'm an amazing man call Krishna dandakam, and the theatre in the days when regional Theatre had Subsea both locally and nationally this is quite a vibrant small Theatre and this amazing man call cristian Dan Decker saw something and I think at the time you are scouts or a try to improve some of marketing and whatever and here I am a person who understood a little bit about marketing and had a passion for newspapers and he took h.

How to get me a job that I started on April 1st 1978 as a kid and I heard I forget what it was at 2 grand and a 1550 pound dress allowance and adults per child Savage that it's a director now.

You know the significance of a man in theatre.

Chested one thing that took a risk and most of all four letters most important letters risk because all through my career.

It's about client about me taking risks and we're not in the age of taking written out to be quite honest.

It's a different aged but it took a risk of me and from that moment I discovered something that was quite extraordinary that I could tell I could come up with crazy ideas to get bums on seats and there was a moment where we hope you're not I was getting they love me the Swindon evening advertiser not display.

Love me because I will play with immediate and people to come in with his week-long runs, and I think we had some we had some a production of what no 4G

Something with Fiona Fullerton who is a sore bum girl and her some whiskey and model and there was a silly weird weirdo be back by today's standards nothing, but it was a son of patriarchal poster and I slap posters up and that was part of my job getting the post that surrounds flyposting and stuff like that and it disappeared though.

They've all been torn down a bit weird so I put them up again and same thing happened again.

So Jess I was leaving that day does a woman in tweeds, who was in front of me and she looked at me and she pointer finger pornographer pornography and she left and I found this woman was the organiser of the Marlborough and Swindon bridge club in Hyde next thing I can a call from the police station to the box office and said could I come?

And I said yes and I met this I went to Swindon police station met despoil.

Yes Sergeant Detective Sergeant Barnes will see you and it's this very nice.

I think I was going on here centre.

We had a complaint for a Mrs whatever name what size plug for distributing pornographic literature and I said what he said yes, and he brought this still damp live wallpaper paste poster on it obvious obvious rather Name poster police and she was clearly now, and I said officer this isn't a graph you do about it.

So I just think me and I had two tickets.

Can we get a discount and I said oh, yes, I can give it to Skype and I said but can I tell local present in those days and please some more openly said nearside front pay your post Leveson you know bobbies.

Kinobody scam to see saw sea shell hole report and I remember that night.

I was doing fine by CT and opening at theatre and mega sharpedo managing your Straits on whenever I saw these two people and it will clearly not for you to goes and I can imagine that they sat there any thoroughly enjoyed the show they loved it and it came out and I spoke to them so we we only came because we saw in the advert the Advertiser power of thought that's what you didn't believe that moment.

You know that was my that was why secondary moment and I came to London that was it so I mean you can give you come to London to seek fame and fortune again seconds.

You know another man.

Who is a crab a powerful for me who made my career sky Philip Hedley Theatre Royal Stratford East in the 1980s.

It was most radical theatre at the time due incredible were.

Ross's Grant Nike gave me a chance he'd seen what I done and he wanted to do it and that was that was history that that we were up against we're up against cuts the Arts Council cuts it was this is a theatre that was way ahead of diversity and inclusion we were doing in.

Oh my my first freelance jobs for the black bit of corporate if you know trevereux Michael happened to Tony Marchant incredible drama political Theatre it's best at the time and that was it and then Philip gave me that chance and we were down.

You're fighting to keep the building open when they are skodas Grant any banks of the times are a supportive credible time of people have gone on to write incredible TV and stars We Know by Brenda Blethyn and being there whatever it was it was a bit of family and that's not connected to the family the theatre mother Theatre and it's family was powerful for me and some powerful friend and I stayed there for 4 years developing it begin again.

Show and you know you start to freelance and then built the agency up and the rest is history really in the sense that that understanding about bums on seats and about sustaining a message.

That's what it's about you you see everything now.

It's quickly gone sometimes crisis sometimes the story sometimes vegan sausage rolls or sometime some float your something on the Thames from stamp.

It's about sustaining and when you've got no money to spend on advertising on marketing you need the power of the media.

You need to Paris in France as a word of mouth should I build up and you sustain a message and that's what I've always try to do is to say that every day is Holly I've got to come up with a creative solution with that you cannot and I said my people every day.

You've gotta come up with solution.

You've got to create magic for your clients and if you're not doing that it's and I think this is why PR is got very introverted and very trade Media Focus rewards Focus which is fine.

I've gone for it was in the past.

I'm not I'm not knocking people to do that but which has lost it with this become slightly pruning and self-important because his clients are important and sustaining at network and its tough.

It's it.

It's stuff now and it was tough in those days because you know you know you were my business card used APR scammer human too because of your business journalists were the tacky yellow and I look at things now in terms of the sort of millennial Culture generation whatever culture and it's all very nice and it's good that is very caring generation coming through who are obsessed rightly by the state of affairs at the moment, but environmental politically and socially in but in those days.

You were absolutely toasting live you were you were crucified.

They wanted to kill your client.

They would kill your client for no good reason and that was a very hard lesson to learn taking on some of the real in a

Rottweilers of of of of tabloid journalism back in the time and it was fun and it was difficult and yeah, there was bullying and there was a Gresham there was dirty Tactics and there was hacking that was what we got on with and actually what I love.

Does a fact that come up with something shop for it.

Come out for a run away pulling away from it.

You know don't go bleating to 2 whatever but it's it's you know.

I've I've seen different iterations of the media through the years.

I'm pleased about that and I'm I'm thrilled and I cherish that but I haven't I have so much more energy now than I've ever had before because it's is an incredible time as each generation is I don't sit back in a particularly things.

I didn't press got all my locker in Tidworth to even took the Ed reverser in August now my into my entertainment team at the moment getting set red and brown pickguard and I see some bohring-opitz kawaii Edinburgh's not what it used to be.

No, it's not and that's good.

It's not because it's a separate is a generation.

Now to invent what it is within Media within whatever it's not for people sit back of the eye like remember.

It was a lot of drunks.

I mean you know I've seen a lot of people lot of contacts.

I've had piano and a NatWest in there because of the process you know this whole idea that we all went down which true you know you've had long lunches, and it was a girl that asked for some good was it was a good for anybody's health and none of those sort of libations of particularly healthy and a lot of people crash buy it now and a lot of women in a lot of strong women came out of women with destroyed by a lot of men with stripe.

I see if it was a brutal existence because you know you were handling you got that phone call on a Friday night for your client and it looked pretty bad and even if it was a new one Storey or story wasn't ruin it still happens to this day unit 1 some believes that that story is true because that's the agent.

It's not about you supposed to that show me how ironic we've had April Fools Day what's the point of April fools day.

Everyday is bloody awful stag and it was crowned feel and when you see when you're inside Nexus somebody who's got a significant crisis the people getting hurt them for clickbait all stories that they don't care.

I don't care what they feel about destroying families of whatever and it's made another the audience care ultimately the audience want the story of my life is one big game show at the moment for spectacle itself.

It's always been you know the great publicity.

You know when I got obsessed about I think it was around about the sort of you notes, so there was a moment.

Where was various relationships being fake so I think of the time allegedly you know Geri Halliwell and Chris Evans and and all these little things being built up you know for PR purposes.

And it was all Harold is something that was particularly new and whatever and reality shows kicked off and it was all this obsession about throwing out these these these near the world's into in society and I use a Sonos not because you'll be a student of the game if you actually look back at the game nothing changes we are all driven by that curiosity to get inside that titillating story and great publicis whether it was the great PT Barnum or Harry Wright handbag or or or whoever had a new how to activate the crowd and some of the darkest publicists in his visual propaganda merchants and people are Joseph Goebbels you know I mean nothing has changed the crowd is no leaderless.

You look at the chaos in brexit now because we have leaders we have no response in a problem brexit both remain and stay so did remain campaign and The brexit Campaign

Appalling campaigns are completely so this is a mess with him now because of vested interest in see what's going on in Parliament now.

Everybody's got an eye on the next job keeping their seat and election Corbyn stereo PRG group is awesome people looking at it and saying I'm on a minute and nobody is finding a way of communicating something that is that could have saved this sort of issue, and it's down two bags of sunrise and Fear Factory whatever and European Union got a lot to answer for kazoos ever projected the value of the European Union so it's this is where they are absolutely fails because you have process and what I see now particularly when you get higher up the food chain.

You know people by processor.

Don't buy results a bribe me a fancy process that a katydid quantifies at summer job the success of the campaign as whether you're in a pub and a person in the pub.

You don't know and

What you do you say to publish? They made eye you know what that is used in the you explain it heard about that.

I know about that all they're talking about your campaign or they talking about campaigns that matter and you don't hear that because things disappear so quickly and never before have I seen such as the explosion of new businesses which is good.

Everything is very moving to some micro niche the big operators the headlines of the world.

Do you know I still stronger than ever been a very interesting sort of a powerful bass with a bad but the son of everything is becoming localised in micro and people from outside this country where in a bit of a bubble at the moment and I don't think we we consciously understand how the world cos they think this country is images the royal family is the Olympics which was you 8 years ago nearly 70 years ago, but still living off that at the moment which is a great exercise and projecting something better.

Predicting how to ship in a Danny balls opening ceremony was a mark of genius and but you know and it's sustained lots of things so you can see powerful communication events pseudo-events it really make an impact but come on guys.

It's get real about what the world is now and what the challenges we feel the world.

I'm really really impressed with Extinction rebellions work at the moment bunch of activists and others guys got well.

I think there there they gradually in emerging as towards realisation or you know into what we got a face and I think that there's there's there's a huge amount of timber cutting each other on the back of appeal people cutting other people advertising PR week for that reason.

It is important for people to be an important.

If you're setting our company has a completely see the value of it and I completely see why it's important or trade publications everybody knows replication.

I don't care.

What is the weather is is Roddy all the stage of the Mechanical Engineers Gazette really moans about if they're not in and takes a grunting when they're not in that's that's that let it when they are in that's not the point but the point is it's actually his words and deeds and actions are three different things and I think there needs to be more actions rather than people positioning ever has it been that so you know nothing in my main motto my main thing I sell all my people everything's different everything's the same the more things change the more they stay the same didn't that breakdown in trust this lack of leadership.

Do we have in in western society is an opportunity for PR people like girls or is it actually that you know the rise of trump and people like Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage where did they feel that it's actually a backlash against this over polished type presentation like people like Tony Blair and Barack Obama they said they did to polished every single, and every single word is perfect and they like your so-called quote unquote real people like

Your Donald Trump Nigel Farage whether they're right or wrong a little even a genuine connection with them as I think we have the we have the hindsight of looking back at things of 20/20 vision and there's there's always a myriad of arguments actually shaped things.

I think the problem is the media are looking for the sound bite now.

Hehe who can come to the best sand by twins and we do not have the capacity in this digitally with our minds like goldfish spinning around to actually Harbour on something and really digested with lost and a generation do not want to read long form and how many websites now throw up.

This is a minute read.

This is a 4 Minute maid is a 10-minute read is interesting.

I think where the New Yorker New York Times of episode of exploding actually doing more I think the time is a really good paper that moment God in his trying as well, but he respected.

Everybody's trying to come up with a bite sized.

Yeah, they can I come up? I think I mean I think it is certainly television and the video previous that the image whether it was Kennedy or whatever it is the mark of elections won by the force of Personality the people bought into and look what's happening in in in Eastern Europe now this sort of um this comedian.

All this is our house is going to win the presidential thing is people just are familiar with people and all those people who you mentioned from Boris Johnson to Farage and trump are showman.

They had to show me them with the history will tell us that showman twins showmans actually are so many go out there PT Barnum Oliver

Personally, I remember sort of in the in the old days that you couldn't get a celebrity in a broadsheet and I remember the Telegraph running you know something on I think it was either Vanessa-Mae and it was a photogenic moment as an front page and I thought my god the Telegraph of putting some facile story or something has changed then because this is a drive for readership for clicks rabbit rising 4 likes and whatever and I think people become a lot more pragmatic about the news is you know and James Harding you seem tortoises a very interesting concept that he's doing a Katie Ballard some really interesting Concepts loan, you slow digestion.

We've got it in education is also in in in a problem that you know in in terms of how we are we training people to get to university through example not we're not in the presence of teaching people on learning.

I mean I was lucky to have some really great teachers who mentored me and and brought brought my interests alive.

I mean, I've got a boyfriend is a teacher is actually buying his own calculators for his class because a teacher run out of money to school in Bristol is going to 3 1/2 days a week at the moment cos I can't afford over 4 days at these important things and these are things overshadowing the Brecon this is one knows where brexit is actually take me out of really important issues last two years because we're focusing on a bunch of brain people you know trying to idea that you know come tomorrow be drinking watneys red barrel on watching but he knows some of black and white movies on the Sunday afternoon.

You know I'm playing golf you know it is so complex so therefore when you've got these powerful communicators who Jasmine understand soundbite and they are the witching and they're dragging people because they're saying things Donald Trump does not build anything he says upon any factual thing I like I will be very surprised to see Donald Trump not being second term president in oh no matter what it is and if you leave Analytics

You seem noise generating around certain things we analyse road closed coastal in America you know you can see this flare up in heat.

Maps is very cold sores east Coast west coast and sea Washington and whatever but the rest of places dark.

You know now when is clicking into this and I think we can be very hubristic.

We have the other media bubble in London which I benefit from the when are interest was happening in in in Sunderland or Swansea or whatever is despite.

What channel 4 in a position themselves.

We're going out to the regions now.

I'm moving out of London sup like this is all virtue signalling and I just think that we brexit and trump is a group of the Media losing touch with what people have actually so fed up and isn't very clever people and their you know until I look at them people talk about an hour or so many interesting people way below the waterline.

They're affecting our life.

Who do not who are not sort out there not got out.

How long did it take?

To get to Cambridge analytica, you know you know and what year did Nigel Oakes have been doing number for Cambridge analytica was way back in the 80s piano using data using using basics to actually perform opinion and we we we look at the we look at the celebrity the easy clickbait angle without actually reporting the hard stuff and there isn't the resources really to to do things in the way and I think the news newspapers particular broadsheets lost confidence in themselves around the 90s and you know the modern review was very significant with what Toby young and Julie burchill didn't in popularizing sort of Culture making you feel a little bit more intellectual but you know I am I look at things and it today.

There's most ridiculous headlines that was in the Daily Mail about the English National Opera which I know something about for the crisis.

They've been through and then you.

Director Stuart Murphy who comes from TV and an interesting appointment you never said we're going to dragon audiences new audiences to the Year no proper work, so we can invite the likes of Holly Willoughby and Davina McCall to tweet about the performance and this is going to attract a young audience what a pile of rubbish.

You know you are chasing the physical equivalent of clique said football 6 hours sitting through the meistersingers, what planet are these people and again is a headline.

It's a celebrity and it's a clickbait and no one is thinking about how do you get the difficult questions? Why do you get the difficult ideas through you know a media that heart under-resourced a lazy look at the headlines looking from me.

Looking for exclusive, can you get ahead of the Twitter trends? You know? How do you do that when everybody now has got a voice or suppose? It's got a voice you know me some sell well.

It's big on Twitter and I said what mean of 13 people have got 10 followers and say this is a big idea.

You know this is these these are pieces screwed metrics and the biggest part of our Industry at the moment is everybody selling you evaluation tools selling you ways of salt water meetings all content whatever you know it's it's it's it's distracting because you know it takes time to develop a story takes time to build influence around it and whether or not Piers Morgan I have a sore jumped up and down on a it's you know they're doing it for their own in a I like Piers and Piers Morgan

She asked that question followers on Twitter is a character.

You know when you see some of the some of the decisions newspapers have made for senior positions over the years.

He know that's slightly down the process.

This is this is not this is just an observation.

There's pragmatic commercial decisions be made around these things but you know everybody should take a very good look at himself at the state.

We're in at the moment and the confusion we face and say actually be careful what you wish for a week implicit in it in as I mean we as in the audience the view was the listeners the readers of course were complicit in it.

I mean if people didn't want to know about the son of the the goings-on of celebrity.

I'm in the heyday of the News of the World simply.

Don't I mean I don't have to school choice and people talk to me that all advertising and PR is piano so aggressive is its choice P&O what we doing offering should.

Shopping people choice and every place been fascinated.

This is not a modern thing in at the height of the silent movie era.

They were they were magazines selling people's you know lifestyles nothing nothing changes with fascinated by that so a Corsa complicit, but we've lost the ability to find true critical opinion that is beyond just Gathering some soundbar on Twitter and thinking that is genius migos Twitter is genius in and there are some fantastic people on it and noticed something yesterday about your manager.

How saying that you know she's seeing feisty across his face is very good.

It's very easy to in a troll people.

I'm a very easy to being kind to people is there any you know God people think of the effects of they've got this voice is the son of outside themselves if you mix yellow and the greatest threats to our Facebook and Twitter and Instagram

Somatic is highly ironic highly ironic that her Prince Harry barks out yesterday the how gaming and social media doleful 2 days after they are 19 hours ago, but of course they're not in same because there's another message Ingrid after you know because we are like we are like her goldfish.

We were spinning around about what's next.

What's 6 what's 10 x nothing you know can is is is is remembered in the way that it used to be and would actually sustain people sometimes.

It's good because people make mistakes people are making mistakes and people should be allowed to recover from those mistakes and they should not be allowed to repeat those mistakes, but at least they should be able to recover and given a second chance of Second Chances level lot of people getting off your pants history.

In terms of dealing with crisis cos it's so easy now to destroy your someone's reputation or reputation with the rub tweet of something in Harriman Churchill I think said the prom with the world is the aisle I can get half way.

We're halfway around the world before the truth as it got its boots on.

I mean now.

You can tweet something and within 220 minutes you can career can be over.

I think it is through your career potential.

Do you know what it was harder back then to protect people it was much harder because it it felt sometimes you what you're fighting a battle was interesting now is if there is a half-truth.

There is a piece of fake news.

There is a bit a new one thing going on if your client has got a big enough channel or he has the ability to position his argument from his own lips of from her own lips, then I can go viral anak can undo quite a lot as I think it's always about moving quickly, it's never never change that it's always about.

Having the best you can interest Trust relationships to build a lab.

I think a lot of people who are doing crisis now.

Who are very good at their trade have been around the block for a long time and an even even in Hollywood piano certainly up to five six years ago most of the people wrangling significant reputations were the north of 40 and had seen it all and Ozil people are are you know? What no what it takes? I think that now.

We have more mechanisms to counter we have better relationships with legal firms, which I think a certain part 3 guys if I have two then commission a a a legal firm there to start writing.

I find more often than not now.

It's the legal times at a commissioning us.

And of course what you fine now is that some Astoria will be tried out on on a digital platform you know and we do and it can be quickly taking down if there's if someone cries foul so I think it's the technology.

That's always change things to think about PR focuser.

They've always grabs technology writer top of whether it was using telegrams when he is using faxes when it was using mail merge whatever the technology came the first people to jump on that will communicate his PR people hands and I think we're the first right.

She see the advantage of social media team sometimes you can for our clients because he said he could become a significant mean and stand story so what doesn't change is the human reaction to it? When people say to me that might like it won't skinsuit Mia wants to do PR Amelia whatever what course should you study should he go to Bournemouth uni, Westminster

Do Anthropologie understand human behaviour the great publicis understood the crowd understood the heard understood what motivated people and their great political spin Masters understood that so I think things things things have changed is the things can evaporate very quickly I think that you have the ability of reforming Astoria very quickly if it's untrue and if you can create a creative and narrative account a narrative to it that can help things it helps if your client has his confidence in himself or herself in what they do and I think you know I was so people get the ppr.

They deserve because some people being out finally very difficult to communicate.

You know I think there's been some great politicians who should have gone into power who might have changed things for us to just weren't fit for the media age and now we are looking at personality before.

The substance what people are saying I'm repeating myself slightly when people feel about those people in front of you, but isn't the choice of whether you have a leader ultimately an emotional because that the public can't have metrics on where the Boris Johnson you know can type at a certain rate of words per minute or whether he's got the right connectivity tool effectively subjective.

Is it now I think people to a certain extent were better informed seems to be reasonably competent, but she's clearly socially and other clearly prism has a sense of Duty and purpose within it is impossible.

It's it's it's it's like it's trying to get to the Moon on a tandem really think with jazza on the back.

We become a lot more parties and become a lot more trouble with my lot more niche.

We've got a lot more.

You know we're stuck in whatever bubble worrying and breaking out of that bubble.

It is very difficult when your server stuff that you need and I think there should be a lot more critical appraisal of the systems that we use for ease.

There's not a free lunch near you use in a use Facebook or you use Twitter or whatever you use to express your views or can get your news if it's free.

What's the price? What are you giving away? And I'm I think people are waking up to that to a certain extent after what happened to Cambridge analytica but term in a decent a multi leveled and I think that someone has to be no we don't have the ability to sit back and I is ring carriage my my phone to gaze out the window.

You know I'm in Somerset in with my best wizard in a wasting dollars.

I said well actually reflection is incredibly important for a creative process UDO

Come up with an idea.

You work as a team.

I've been lucky to have you know many incredible people working for me in all different levels seen him some people call a cold.

I'm deeply deeply proud of people going on see that their own companies are in who gone on to represent brands and whatever and I've got a great set of young people and at the moment.

You know if I'm pretty lucky to attract great people because it's not about me.

You know it is about all those of people doing hard work, but you have to create that environments and one of the things is actually creating a reflective environment for people to think about what they're doing and and to be sensible about it rather making dumb decisions because a bunch of soul of cool kids in in in order to telling them that do you know and I and you know it's it is actually having the strength of your personality.

You know to really be positive about what you're doing and why you're doing it and having a

Real goal and and an attracting the suppliers that will allow you to do that and because sometimes we've all done it and how you tell you chase the money and sometimes you chasing a very big feeling very difficult job.

That's the ones that she test your your your credibility that test your morals and everybody had will have their challenges and that can have it and change the way corporate culture works within an organisation will look at them.

I think we've seen the top level of it.

I think it's very deep.

I looked at that story and of course the entire virtue signal PR professions or left on it.

I think it stems from a situation where they had been involved with in a bit of a downturn in Peasedown to an expose the Independent did.

Catching up with a fake lobbying jobs exposing the thing so the PRC it wanted to be seen to Haul them but like one of one of their competitors a couple of our competitors and one in particular said to me.

Why would I want to be part of an organisation is going to find me so you think that yes a prca do some great work in in in in training people and and stay there and I'm bringing people together and helping people and creating rules and giving people indication to give you a growing company and have some very piano stop metrics to join so it's a trade body.

I know how they work but at the end of the day sometimes it reflects it into the world and I always think that you know how many of the really interesting PR companies.

I use at wedding fairs e-commerce are not members of PLC about 10 years ago.

I'm still in rpr people born play with that Talent is it in a time is it something you can learn you know I spoke to a friend of mine a senior PR guide for years when he said you are there in a natural communicator.

Are you not only said he's like the clappers either.

Got it or you haven't you asked about changes a lot of changes now is the fact that some and some of my old mates in PR moan about it.

So why don't people go out? Why don't people lunch easy and keep them? I want to do that.

They don't want to do that and that's fine.

They communicate through other means to talk to people then if you're working in a digital platform which is more out of battery hen Farm Where You Don't See the Light of Day and there's no clocks there.

You don't have any time to and it isn't is a different way of networking that I personally don't think it's the best way of networking.

I've been out but I like your eyeball someone.

You just need to meet people in need to understand people and get me Baba Jenner still have the time you know to to to to to get out there you can't put you press junkets together like he used to do another 2-3 days going to something exotic place to go to meet up to to meet your clients.

So it is so different so are people born in any profession you're good.

You know I mean you know there are certain people born to be an undertaker.

There's some people born to be account at the same people born to be a golf pro.

You know it is known to be an entrepreneur.

I think you just have to be lucky enough to understand or get the opportunity to be that sort of person and a problem that everybody sees in opra something that is achievable and sexy and whatever and everything is changing and npr's and dinner will be redundant piano in a minute and 15 years.

We will have a high versions of ourselves communicating messages.

I'm in the work.

That's going on in nai.

It is quite staggering you know in terms of thumb.

Painters at bellarmine ultimately there is a point where human contacted and put important if you can't communicate here if you're if you're an introvert when the RPI was not for you, but then again you might have a different scale RC within a company you not going to win.

You're not going to win the open with a pata and every every company needs a skill set of people you can't have a bunch of yellow leaders at their you could have the support staff you gonna people underneath that and I was very keen to create a structure with everybody had a voice you know some of the best ideas used to come from the person who runs reception you know remember the adage about the cleaners massive that support man on the moon is true and from that man who gave the first break you know Chris the dundaga was obsessed about the cleanliness of the theatre as I want someone going in and out she's sitting down and she finds in a sitting in someone's of chewing gum the

Pharmacy, you know because that's experience you have so I think it's a holistic thing you look at and you look for people with differing strengths different personalities to make up.

What is a family rock ll20 do the best and that's early oracle when your interview people like me you in the hiring and firing game.

Do you get g can I use your experience and you got to salad can make an assessment of someone sum of the first 30 seconds in a year this person has got it.

All.

They haven't Impreza in the first 30 seconds of Danny employment.

Do you know what anybody first round? I have a have a brilliant hijab women Angela who who keeps in line and have other people in the company go through that and then I meet them and yes at some point at the interview are going to

Think you know can I go on a long train journey to hell with this person and you know in the same question is why would you ever go to Whole of course, but I sent you should not be reading this at the thing is that you looking for people with ambition impaction you looking people who will will not get out and I say kick people at my office for a bunch of people who worked on the Sony account and they wouldn't leave the office.

You know they love her clients so much and love the work and that's the other cruel thing is you know when you work so passionately 4LB had Vodafone to 7 years and we've been launched Vodafone remember much else is getting people to use text messaging you know and it's a hell of a thing to lose a huge smile like that.

Not just yet financially which is a bit of a blow before the team moto.

Heart and you know it's those with one of my old people is the lunch yesterday is got a very need new PR company which is is going Places and can you talking about an older older teething Pains of growing pains and the client relationship issues.

He has is no different from anybody else.

I tell him you know everybody feels that and you know you'll just have to find a way of navigating through and having the room and the ability to make the right choices about your clients because pitching is grumbling shamelessly for work.

It's a complete stitch up.

It's never told me about the work.

You are going to do for them.

You should have picked you never ever do the work is saying a picture and if any changes his weather most people across the room like you in that sort of irrational really because you know you can have a lot of likeability and have no ability and secondly you can keep a client going because you're pretty damn good at process.

Gordano it you think we spent what on what you know and it's difficult as it, is it a skilled to pick up the phone a 70 time when 6 journalism already turned you down as it's more of a character traits more than well if you're if you're saying the same thing to journalist on your 6 phone calls and getting A6 reaction you do something wrong.

So this is like another word meaning conversations again.

He's got a know the journeys.

What turns them on either they know what the genus writes about what they're interested in and you got to have something that is a is is something as news you know there.

Was you know when you're talking if you talking to news on a mate.

There's got to be something as relevant within it not that I exist therefore I'm looking for her that I exist therefore I'm looking for publicity and with a lot of people.

I've done this ok.

What's interesting that thousands of people doing there any stop?

Is a piece you know on a website that she knows what they're doing and your space and people are just hubristic.

So that's some going to forgot.

I mean talking talking truth to closest is a Tapas thing particularly a crisis and I've got a very difficult weekend me next week if you know dealing with someone who who cannot accept.

What's happening to him and he's just got to get with the times.

So you do become part shrink in a particular need we need when you did it without you, but even a reach people but it is these people don't fire clients enough and I think that term I've done it a couple of times.

I've got done it enough added once last week Brandon it for about 3 years before that and it was quite stressful and possibly 5 people 3 people or whatever team working on the job and you gonna think about what does that say unto them as you're making decision your insta your knowledge of what's coming down the pipe is not what they are and they don't understand that seem seem.

Night in the woods on his client because they were quite they want a pleasure to work for ready fact.

It was it was demoralising you can't do that.

You asked what different people are expecting a lot more from the work spaces are not more that they're not buying into the fact that they are going to possibly work for you.

Loyalty, is is not at a premium otherwise been bless.

I must say I've been blessed by people who have been incredible to me and get out and sometimes regret.

I don't I don't keep up with them as I said he's alive but you know if I've got other people that work for me for 2-3 years and then we parted amicably and I think will that was that was a good period of time for them to work for me and it was time for them to move true true and I think that that's case but I think people don't come in without sore Sensation it's it's very much and I listen it's some you know it is it is incredibly personal experience that you go through with p.

And you've got a create structure you going to create a structure to allow people to develop their going to be learning.

I've always thought I did my best and I'm sure he will time to create a learning environment where I could I can bestow some of my experience on people whether it was Wisdom on.

I don't know but he give them some idea of of the way it goes and because it's been whether it's at whether it's a blogger and influencer and journalist.

You know I can't do whatever you've got to understand human emotions.

You've got to understand.

What makes a human tick you know and sometimes if if you managed to make contact with somebody is important and they've had a bad day.

Don't take it personally know when you went to the Beginning you said you know your first West End show and then you said you went freelancing and then started agents in the rest is history of how you summarise at 30 years in 20 seconds there.

Do you have an ideal amount of people at the size for your agency for a for a book of ski agency because you

Teen years and you know sometimes we've been 30 sometimes.

We've been five and I'm still trying to get the levers in the right order at the moment were around 20 that seems to be about the right size for me in that when I've gone bigger than that.

It is always gone wrong.

It's just it just depends on what you want to achieve.

I think that if you want to remain a petite business you you know there are some fantastic art consultancy that started up when I was going that's still for a 5 people and two incredibly well have great influence and make in a good money.

I would assume there are growing agencies in one around the world and he wants a son of have offices in every country in the world.

I think that the is it is what your business plan is where you want to be how you see yourself going? Where do you want to be in in 3 4 5 6 10 years and mocking it and at the heart of it you got over.

I'm strident financial backbone you have to have you know the structure of people around you at the Board to make that work and you know sometimes.

It's worth me sometimes.

It hasn't and is what you do mention is I mean for you know for for me how I thought my business would be in 89 is not how it was in 95 out wasn't in 2005.

How it certainly wasn't 2009 and how it wasn't now to stay so opportunities no battle plan never survives contact with the enemy is attributable steps with three elephants and Ian Botham back in 1989 that was an experience.

I got to know hannibal's footsteps really quite well that brings me to my next question cos I mean you are the master of the publicity stunt come out with some genius things like you know gift wrapping a helicopter to publicise Harrods and didn't you want to feel Selfridges

Block 700 naked people YouTube subs at the time and I think James Bidwell and we're the only three clothes people in the entire store, but there's a classic example of old Selfridge Churchill James Bidwell they were incredible team of people who went on to sell with these huge events that we contributed to you know how I think yeah.

I live I still what I've I've lost track on some of the more wild and wonderful things I didn't get them done today.

I think it's a very dangerous world of some of the stands have pulled off.

You know I've been nearly arrested.

I'm nearly killed myself an early kill clients have seen clothes be fired.

You know that would risk you know you have to do.

Understand everything around the globe and of course use different now because you can't really be part of you know that's all fake news 12 and I think very few I remember I looked at some for Typhoo and one stands.

I wanted to pull off with take the Hollywood sign and this is for Photoshop so I employed crack team of ex-military people and we spent two weeks looking well.

It would be for one moment to take off to the two it was it was a 2000 Hollywood's and turn it into Thai food and we could have done it and it was quite affordable to do and we looked into it and it was sort of post 9/11.

So there were there.

We had a meeting with the client and the client said so what's the what's the negative your side of this because of my guys probably would have to have bullet-proof vests is a good opportunity that he shot.

Which supermarket is a general office at Australia Padiham for 15 years he loves a great you lots of great grapes a bit of creativity and you know I buy a member wrapping a house, that was incredible wrapped in Thai house and to give away for valentine day is presently went right the way around the world Santa we also a little kid who said help with buying a house when I said I will Santa get down the chimney and we actually worked on as Santa perfect chimney the dimensions what it would take to get Santa down the chimney and putting it up and down and whatever this gonna be a real sense of narratives floating Scarborough to get the name of a story that looks and things hangover minute but you know.

What is fun gym and I think what's changed from me is I used to be someone who's obsessed by the base when the basement was a file and finally store in front page nationals Atwood have spark things off and I'm an hour and you know he doesn't exist anymore because that's the risk of Us health and safety culture that be rightly so I think rightly so I mean some of the stuff I did for the sexes are present in my only career.

I mean you know no strings on a safety net in a doing incredible stunts on tops buildings on every photo opportunity in whenever I mean god.

They were Fearless I'm ok.

I'll switches you know which is a chainsaw juggling crazy Circus that I won't the road with when I was a kid.

You know they were incredible.

They didn't care will be a bit is it going to get us publis table? Do it and people of you know people look at things I noticed a great stunt yesterday was lemurs Lee

Yoga for a hotel in Keswick and I thought it's a beautiful stenholm good looking people doing a yoga poses a monk's a bunch of something exotic animals for a hotel in cheese invented Lima colourful brilliant.

That's just Sweden Brighton is there really a thing called name of the other who cares as a great photo and I think where you push.

It is where there is a son of there's a sudden urge that there is not a sense of fun publicity stunts campervan hire in Go James earrings company now.

I think you know do some very clever stuff.

I think there's lot of people trying to do leg day did they didn't we did the court for being out and they were doing the consumer work and they came up the idea of actually writing a letter to to Jacob rees-mogg the same stop nicking vvip of Mrs something and it went everywhere because it's it's clever.

I think a lot of people do stunts that the get lot of Awards but do nothing you know because they just disappear very quickly.

I think it's a Staines

There is a formula there is a formula for a Pakistan Iona formula and I know how it works I can bet you if you hit these elements will form at your stand for work and it will go global because that's a point you've got to go outside Country For You Really cheer successo, I mean I mean by Jim Rose Circus I let a bunch of scorpions inlet listen to BBC green room with pebble Mill I mean that was chaos that brought the Communist yeah, I did say to somebody at the Sting are you covered if you are, I don't know whether they were and I walked in Elephant across the road in history got away with that and no one was harmed means you're a legend we could have gone wrong legend.

Great fun things and had a guinot can tell if you will stories about it.

I like there's things that went wrong with an idea idea what I thought was a great idea and iLauncher first Nando's my pic of my idea was that we would do crazy talking about it and if Miranda's listen to this you worked hard on this but we are got helium balloons and we flew pieces of Fried Chicken all over healing and if you collected this check if you was a carriage not to eat it obviously being collected.

He could describe it could have been a plastic fake piece of chicken, but no I had to be a real piece of chicken riddle with calculator rats and can I do something terrible idea? Hope your I'd disagree having something.

And some aggressive PR stunts in in in South Africa is it because it was a great supporter of it, but I didn't keep the account.

I wonder why what's next for you.

Is it more of the same? Will you still be doing this 20 years from now well, it's two things either the business all the business are retirement said had enough of it or I can't think of anything else.

I want to do you know I look at a lot of my friends who sold out and did very well and they went round the world all they bought their 12 in a bed 12 houses off their collectible cars A1 avenger know what each one himself to get back into the business cos actually it's a very exciting business to be any in any also if you get a call, I had a call yesterday and the most extraordinary call and I go there a week goes by when I don't hear something well.

I'll be able to represent it not be true, but you hear fantastic things you see the underbelly you see something else that's going on and I would be cut off from that.

So if my health gives up and then obviously.

If my been fine fettle might my brain doesn't work in but I don't think I look at some of the when I again when I wrote the phone for had the joy of seeing some of the most powerful people have a generation many of which are never going back into trips to LA and every time I came back the personal interview guide so I didn't decide that.

I don't speak to her first night as tasty as long as I still have the capability and still I can do it.

I don't see why shouldn't do it the day it becomes like work to me then.

It's time to to pack it up, but where will all be in the next year or two years who knows I mean you know anybody who makes plans gods laughing at you Mark an angle dispute this but you're a legend thanks ever so much free time appreciate it.

I will dispute it.

Thank you for having me and it's been a pleasure talking to you.

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