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Read this: Why seeing isn't believing

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Why seeing isn't believing…



BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, I'm Andrea catherwood, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 millions of Americans have been fooled this we buy a fake video that makes the top US politician look like she's drunk when software at Norwich this to make people say and do things I've never actually done in places.

They haven't even been to any of us distinguish between what's real and what's not more on that in just a few minutes and for no other reason than that it's at half term for some of us Sunday summer holidays are on the horizon.

We've assembled 3 of the UK's most influential travel journalist when booking a holiday what influences you travel supplements travel blogs or Instagram why are journalists work on all of them let me introduce you to them Simon Calder is here.

He's been a travel editor of The Independent for 25 years Simon can you think back to what you're very first job was in the travel industry.

Yes, I grew up 2 miles from the runway at Gatwick Airport so I was.

Cleaner for British Airways and to date me a little bit the planes.

They were using them were comets the very first jetliner and how exciting this plane has been to places.

I can only ever dream of going and now you get to kill yourself fantastic.

Not the other end of the travel Spectre and we've got to Chloe gunning his otherwise known as wanderlust Chloe one of the country's top travel bloggers, Chloe you've got a job that most people would end, what did you do for for this? I actually started right here and one of these these radio Studios I was a radio producer for about five or six years dream job and I'm quite excited to be on this by the microphone today and Michael Keating is a joint CEO of ink.

Which is the company that produces in-flight magazines for dozens of airlines Michael interesting movie talking about this in the media show office earlier and we think that you might have the largest circulation of any magazine group that we've ever actually had on this programme.

How many readers do you reach well, we produce over 30?

Print magazines and reach over 800 million passengers a year so probably the world's biggest publisher.

You've never heard of but you've certainly heard of all the Airlines you work with and we've got you on so will be finding out more at later on in the program.

We will return to that topic of travel journalism shortly, but first Nancy Pelosi is a huge figure in US politics.

She's Speaker of the House of Representatives the first woman to hold that position and has a Democrat outspoken in her criticism of the president.

She's a frequent target for supporters of Donald Trump then we all know that politics in Washington is a particularly Mackie business, but last week Pelosi experienced.

What might be a new low in the history of dirty tricks she was speaking at a conference about her experience of working with trump and a video of that event has racked up millions of views, but it went viral because someone had manipulated places voice to make her signed drunk take a listen so it's really sad.

The same night out of this to the room when she came in a made that statement that he walked out and get the secretary of the Treasury at all this then the other thing a distinguished group of members from the house and senate ok will Night by way of comparison.

Let me play you a clip of the original this to the room when she came in and that's definitely work out and get the secretary of the Treasury and all that this that and the other thing a distinguished group of members from the house and senate shocking isn't it? Love it isn't the first manipulation of video but it is one of the most high prof profile in a disturbing trend and if you can't tell what's real and what's not what does journalism respond Craig Silverman is the media editor of BuzzFeed and he's on the line now from Toronto Craig Nancy Pelosi is a very well-known Democrat and she has publicly anger Donald Trump what is the motor?

Station here to make her look like she's got a drink problem in this case in a weird kind of reminds me of what we signed 2016 when Hillary Clinton was the Democratic candidate for president and they were persistent claims spreading on a lot of friends websites and some more mainstream, Conservatives ones about her having a serious health issue, and so in that case it was raised questions about her fitness for office in this case I think it's it's just two more kind of thing with to raise questions about Nancy Pelosi as a leader of the Democrats you know Speaker of the House and to really try and diminish her and discredit her in terms of what she's going to do because she is the person who ultimately is really going to decide whether the house moves forward with impeachment proceedings over over Donald Trump or not.

So it seems like a clear attempt to discredit her and undermine her authority as she's the key player the key temic Democrat and all of this the do we have any idea as to who is behind this video now.

It's not clear.

Who originally came up with the idea of slowing down her speech to do this.

I know the video and this is the reality of our environment today once I sort of got onto one place online.

It was very quickly you know reuploaded and re share and spread to many places so in some cases.

It's very hard to figure out the original any in if you find the first place that uploaded it.

You know if they're not going to talk to you.

Don't know where they found it and so that it provides cover for the kind of people who would want to create and see these sorts of things that you cover a lot of fake news and you look at authenticating video and audio and it is getting increasingly sophisticated this one isn't particularly sophisticated.

Is it Amy actually are all producers there today and did this to my voice I won't I'm not working to spare you but it's not very difficult to do to slow it down and then to change the pitch to make it sound like it's there.

It's them to make it sound like you're drunk.

It's quite easy to do.

It's quite simple Z it is and this is a fig.

The important point here there's been a lot of discussion over the last 3 years so about deepfakes which is now very advanced artificial intelligence being used to create videos where people are able to say things that they never said before and it looks like them and sounds like them and there is a lot of concern about that, but this is the kind of cheap fake or shallow fake as some people are calling it where it's very easy and so many tolls are accessible to people now to manipulate Media whether it's photos or videos you don't need advanced knowledge.

You don't need to have a lot of technical expertise and and it does the job and so these are the things we should be most concerned about in the immediate term rather than the very advanced deepfakes because this stuff is accessible in once you sorted out there on the right places it can take off in it's very hard to put that that genie back in the bottle.

How do you say it does the job? Do you think that most people who've seen this think that it's real this point what we've seen as a

Huge amount of coverage making clear that this was a manipulated video so I think we're at a point where you know the pushback has been very strong and what I would say for something like this.

Is you know there's a poet small percentage of the population but think about in the United States who might see this and am believe it is real, but one of the things about information like this manipulate information or outright false information is that even if in the moment you don't have silly accepted as true and it's real.

It's still kind of stays in there and there is a familiarity Factor that's been documented in science that the more we see something I hear something so if there continue to be more videos of Pelosi protrainer his drunk or unstable things like that someone may not believe the first one, but over time it starts become familiar and it may actually start to affect unconsciously their perception of her said that to me is the kind of bigger concern that instantly people saying it and saying yep, she's absolutely drunk Craig the other issue that this is thrown up is that Facebook and Twitter have refused to?

Delete it from their platform, so YouTube has taken it done.

What is there argument for leaving up something that they know to be fake this is the situation they found themselves when it comes to Facebook when it comes to Twitter one of the things they say is that they do not remove things just because they are false and the explanation for that in an in the most basic sense of free speech.

You know people should have the right to be wrong.

That's part of free speech in a democratic Society and so that's really at the core of their argument and of course.

I think part of that is if they were moving everything that was an accurate one free speech concern but to just an incredible amount of work today, which have to do to be correcting people in real time and so that's why they're remaining up, but it should also be noted that in many cases ones are in a somewhat similar to this I suppose they come up with other reasons to remove it.

They find another policy if there's that the video has violated in this case you know Muslim have policies against harassment integrate harass.

Can I take protrainer public official is drunk in accurately may fall into that category.

So it has been interesting to see them leave it up and not take action ok, Craig Silverman of BuzzFeed news.

Many thanks for joining us.

I'd like to bring in hazelbaker.

Who is head of user generated content news gathering at the news agency reuters Hazel just to start user generated content.

It's it's pretty self-explanatory brilliant.

It's a video or audio that doesn't come from a reuters journalist, but perhaps it is shot by someone else.

That's right.

So the vast majority of imagery that we put out the reuters news agency formed by what is camera for by a trusted partner about for many reasons we can't always be the first people news events Putney vets expecting accidents incidents war zones and in those cases the best cameras may not be professional ones but this material is really valuable to the client to be able to tell stories and as a result being best lots of time and resource into verifying this material because of course you provide that content to your clients worldwide.

BD newspapers news organisation to set to end a run those stories if you were to let something slip by that was then find out to be fake and it could be disseminated worldwide not on social media from mainstream Media it would be awful for your credibility.

So how do you make sure that everything that goes out as authenticated absolutely if it is the key thing we've got to get right and we know our responsibility do we have our dedicated team looking at verifying this material and we adopted very formulaic workflow looking at verification 3 think about the content but we have to think about the source and so we can get clues and looking at the content itself.

We can do geolocation and we can make the corroborating imagery.

We can look for metadata on files, but then we also need to make sure in almost every case we have a really in-depth conversation with the person who's behind the lens and understand the motivation for filming and understand the context of whatever they films and and how it happened so you would never disseminate something if you didn't know the source absolutely we have to be really clear up.

I'm here filmed Craig mentions deepfakes.

That's an incredibly complicated area it is actually terribly frightening just tell me a little bit about what that can be what the heck is there any new tablets that can I come into use in the last 2 years in the reason? It's nude because what we've had fake video been around for many years, but this is a video that's using deep learning to drive the fakery so artificial intelligence is underpinning all of the computer generated graphics.

Just need to give us an example of what that could be well.

We created one in our Newsroom and that was reformed alcoholic.

I'm giving up a pretend business interview and we took that clip and we gave it to her a production house which uses but you just listen to her that we gave which was lots of the video of our colleague speaking I am I managed to regenerate her face then we took her a speech motor French we can colleague and use that to recreate the original colleague things same thing in French so it's entirely change the voice.

I am but you can have to do face swapping.

And it also programs that allow for object insertion and deletion and that's definitely concerning to an object insertion and deletion that means for example.

You could have a premier walking through our Warfield are you know and they would be perhaps soldiers would be gone what does so just would have different uniforms on something like vehicles.

You could be seeing lots of lots of different possibilities and it's quite scary just cuddle the pessimism that the 2020 presidential election is going to see a lot more of this kind of stuff is that I can send to you.

It is a concerning.

That's why we decided to make our own to do some testing because I think it's important for us to be able to know the landscape of video fakery for those of us working in verification and to that end.

We will sort of plotted out a sliding scale of deceit of these types of videos and actually click click mention the Young The Shallows making clothes out of harm actually very simple technology and actually put out videos that haven't had any manipulation can also cause harm, because I said up.

Contact our most forgiving entirely different meaning in fact.

We had a video sent to our Newsroom during cycling it I said to show bodies on the beach and Mozambique actually it was summer voices camera five years earlier in Libya I managed to come full circle back into the news and I clearly we didn't run that.

That got picked up very early in a verification checks, but that hadn't been manipulated.

It's only been reassured of course the flip side of this is that then if you do come across a really important bit of a sentik video that is Downing either to an individual running for office or to a country for example showing the use of funny chemical weapons oil human rights atrocities does make it easier for the regime at the centre of the storm to claim that that video footage is fake when it's real this really is an assault on the power of journalism to expose wrongdoing isn't it possible to liability is a serious threat.

Yeah, I'm already seeing people are members of the public actually questioning authentic video and I'm wondering whether it could be deepfake that this concept has entered the public mind set and

Absolutely put some more important to not delivering authentic material even more so I think because people are considering whether weather manipulation could have happened and we need to prove for one Way Or Another whether it has a thinker if you haven't heard about deepfake video before I think this is not going to be the last time hazelbaker.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us now with half term in full swing and summer on their eyes and you might be thinking about booking a holiday but with journalists play any role in your choice of destination.

They do.

To have a glamorous job, but she needs travel journalist when you've got TripAdvisor on Instagram when I introduced there are panel to you earlier.

They are Simon Calder seen your travel editor at the Independent Chloe gunning, who is the blogger behind wanderlust Chloe and Michael Keating who was the co-founder of ink the global travel media company which produces in-flight magazines for American Airlines Etihad Airways easyJet's and many other?

Michael Jackson talk to you a little bit more we suddenly in true that you're at you know you're somebody who and it's a magazine company that very many people haven't heard of yet.

It's a huge publishing company everybody knows that magazine and the seat pocket and front of you every time they fly it's there what most passengers don't know is that you actually pay the Airlines for the privilege of putting the magazines there.

Tell me what that works.

That's why we take all the risk actually and and very much disrupted the model 25 years ago when I lost the company being a back in the day the Airlines would have paid when I become an old-fashioned and publishing house to produce a magazine for them.

We went to her lands 25 years ago and said you have a terrible products costing you money.

Why don't we create something that's new stand and quality and will write you a cheque so we had to be 100% sure my ability to create an engaging product and to be able to sell the advertising which is key absolutely so mean advertising obviously is how you make all your money and indeed.

Leave enough money to pay the Airlines as well.

What is it that you can offer advertisers that so valuable firstly the Travelling public or a very high abc1 type demographic they have money to spend the affluent upwardly mobile what you must remember is that travel is on the app.

So ink is bucking the trend in terms of the decline of new stand print publications because passenger numbers are growing Simon will know that I asked her have numbers that stayed the Passengers will double by 2034 aircraft orders at an all-time high so we have a very appealing demographic to advertisers who are captive board and crying out to be able to change literally captive if they're on her budget Airlines flight how to remove most profitable.

Are you what I don't want to talk about the specifics of Prophet today.

However we sell about 100 million dollars worth of advertising per annum and we're experiencing double-digit growth in terms of prof.

So it's working and advertiser get a great response night.

You've got a thing as many people working in your advertising sales area as in your editorial department that must be GTA that's right, so we have offices in London Miami New York San Paulo and Abu Dhabi stay servicing over 25 hour lines and 50% of the 303rd work for a sign advertising sales in the restaurant creative dedicated to each airline easyJet team only work on easyJet traveller and the sales team of the cell that brand new tell me about the Airlines how much editorial control do they have over what goes into your magazines, so they definitely give us there and terms of wanting to promote a new route or they might say we have a new a new destination.

We want to promote the Caribbean or the ski season in terms of the keep looking.

But because we're be the market leader in the sector the airlines are very good at running around lines and

Deliver to get on with the publishing peace so with the exception of stating roots or types of holidays.

I did want to promote were pretty much left her own devices, but you must know what you wouldn't wouldn't put it in for example amino.

Would you talk about the very fact that says that's all Airlines have a damaging to the environment for example under perhaps the the best thing that we could be doing for the Environmental emergencies.

Not flying.

It's not something someone wants to read about when they're on the transatlantic flight as well.

That's true, but the airlines are very conscious about their green credentials in and do what they can and terms of weight on board more fuel-efficient aircraft and self-worth and and we will ensure that the paperweight is quite liked the format such that there isn't excessive fuel burn so the very aware of that Simon you take a lot of flights to read those in-flight magazines of course and I have a hugely improved if you go back 25 years too big for you had the low-cost Airlines

Would normally be reading a story which began something like Mallorca an island of contrasts now.

You'll be reading something much more engaging and that's great and it's because we got competition and the most over the past quarter century travel has become so much cheaper so much easier so much safer and it is now absolutely the industry of human happiness you been you've been riding like this for 25 years the genres change hugely in that time the Independent so went online only in 2016.

How much is that influence kind of articles that you write about huge because before that we had the Saturday travel section and you you would spend your week thinking.

How are we going to make this look good? What are we going to put in it? How we going to inspire people in entertainment use them and now you're thinking crikey.

What's happening? I better get on to it so this morning and I I actually just had to check just now what I've written today and we got strikes at Schiphol Airport III

Easiest in Europe Champions League football at the match of course on Saturday in Madrid fares have gone through the floor because the airline overcommitted and Brittany Ferries one of their flagship is broken so you're immediately responded that stuff that's happening all the time and it strikes me Simon that you're writing a lot more for people who are actually travelling themselves as for in the past when you were writing about wonderful trips that people might been sitting in the armchair reading about but they won't going to go on themselves.

Travel has become so much democratic.

That's has travel journalism and now for example you want to go to the other side of the world go to Sydney Australia I've just checked you can fly from Manchester to night £750 if you're a cleaner at Gatwick Airport that's about 8 days work to fly to the other side of the world and back extraordinary when I was a cleaner at Gatwick would have taken a year so we can go to all those places and so you kind of need travel jealous partly to say yes indeed, Uzbekistan

Is the most astonishing place you can go to but you also need to tell them all crikey.

Look out for this overbooking case that happened in them in in easyJet for example last week.

They sent this poor ladies luggage to build a but left her behind and you're such a chasing up all these consumer cases as well.

Chloe Chloe gunning.

You are a travel blogger and it does sound so many people like the dream job to actually be able to make your living or going on holiday surprisingly that there are thousands of travel blogs springing off a mean almost anybody with them with a smartphone and an Instagram account would like to do it you've built up wanderlust Chloe into a full-time career and you know you actually make money out of her right.

Yeah.

It's a full-time career it beats the salary that I had in radio.

I'm sorry to say but it is my dream job and it came from a passion for travel which is just a wonderful way to start something to just break it down for a simply hide.

You actually make money so the majority of my income comes through paid campaigns with.

Tourist boards Airlines hotels, they want to promote a service they have or destination they have and they want an engaging way to tell the stories behind the destination so for example of just been to Germany they want to show German summer cities what it's like in Germany in the summer.

Why everyone should book a flight there and go and kind of following our footsteps so I film some videos I obviously did all the Instagram stuff posting pictures everyday and since I got home.

I've been at my laptop day and night crafting lots of blog posts that will have tons of very relevant and up-to-date information and do you think that when people look at your blog and when they look at your Instagram account? They're aware that you were being paid by the German tourist board hangover that sentence.

Yes, because we have to be very transparent now.

I'd say a few years ago this industry didn't really exist how it does now when I started I didn't know it could be a career.

I didn't know people got paid for these things but obviously there is money exchanging and we have to be transfer.

I can say I have just wet with visit Germany and this is how the business model works.

I actually explain it on my blog exactly step-by-step how I get paid if I done it is very wondering if you go there you go to saxony and actually they send you somewhere and it is really disappointed yet.

I did have a good look through anything negative theremin.

Do you just leave that either or how do you cover it? It's pretty rare that I have an awful experience because I I guess it's part of why my blog works.

I am so passionate about travelling that I tend to find really wonderful experiences when I go away.

Yes, he might have rain you might be out in the rain all day, but you might be much rain.

I'm thinking about when a service is dreadful come across those but you would just you just skipped over that when I don't always skipped over actually publish negative reviews on my site before and I've had to deal with hotel owners coming back after and saying can you remove this and I've said no it's my travel blog.

This is me and when you book me for this project.

You booked it for me talking to my audience and not glossing over things and you know making it shiny new famously known as the man who pays his way does that mean that you you never accept free flights and discounted room rates in that kind of thing is very annoying the only good thing is it cheaper and cheaper for instance one of the first trip so I did when I joined independent was going to Rome and back and I remember pay £250 of the Guild a real bargain.

I would do it for 80 or less.

Thank you very much these days.

So that yet and it is one of those things where I am really got the job because I didn't take three trips because at the time.

I just thought I've done guide book writing and damp therefore nobody will give me any any free facilities and I just kept it like that for a long time the Independent had a strict no freebies policy, then we expanded the travel coverage and said basically the editorial budgets and don't allow us to produce three times as much are content and not take any 34.

British soap my excellent colleagues doing most of the stuff is is based on them.

I'm free facilities, but I still have my own solitary see what do you think of journalism like Chloe's and those kind of blogs and Instagram accounts.

Where are they are getting a lot of of 3 staff and they getting paid to go places.

I think it's great.

I think you are Chloe and enter your car of the future.

I mean if you go back to let's just remember ok.

I think travel is a good industry.

I think it's a delivers marvellous experiences for people but more importantly it redistribute wealth it connects people that breaks down barriers and it should be encouraged and the travel industry has for years been looking at this concept of equivalent advertising spend and Michael I defer to you on this but basically the idea is if we pay Chloe to go off to Germany and Tim go to all these beautiful cities and talk about it.

That's probably going to cost is less than taking out some advertisements in Michael

Excellent magazines and that's always been the case.

It's just that they used to effectively hand out free trips to to journalists now.

I think they are they are working increasingly do people like Chloe but the basic idea is as long as you are at as a journalist saying I'm going to say what I think it makes absolutely no difference and Michael you would have sponsored content in your magazines, so we do work closely with tourism boards and of course our job within the in-flight space is to promote the Airlines network so we don't write negative things because if you take easyJet full sample i-225 destinations.

We've got more than enough to fill out pages each month so why be negative as Simon saying earlier with dealing and happiness and and and selling the the travel dreams if you've got a piece that says I don't feel the best 5 restaurants in the end in the in the north west of Northern Ireland will those be sponsored or was that your journal it is gone.

HomeFinder bands coming to Northern Ireland we could we could do that all of our titles has very important to stress that the Editors are properly trained journalists mostly from a very very big new stand titles the editorial has absolute integrity so whilst tourism board may advertise we will support that destination by writing about them, but they do not have any editorial approval we have total independence on that and all the journalists do go to the destinations and actually report in person.

There's no desktop research.

It seems to me that there is almost two separate streams of other the new wave of travel construction one we've got TripAdvisor what it's all really raw and it's citizen journalism and it's warts and all and that's absolutely what we want.

We want to know without the towels were dirty herd the flight was laid at the bus wasn't cleaned.

All about and yet on the other side.

We've got this fantastic Instagram feed will we really want to see the beautiful pictures that you post for everything looks amazing and wonderful is there a contradiction there or do you think that's just the other people quite prepared to look at both and and way up where they think where they think the balance live somewhere the truth is in the middle somewhere.

I think definitely I know when I research my trips.

I do still look at writing sites and understand.

What's out there from those but then sometimes the reason I've actually got to the destination in the first place is from a much classier point of view.

It's from seeing you know the beautiful cliffs in I don't know in Thailand or something.

I've just been there and I definitely resets a lot of the killer locations.

I'd like to visit based on Instagram but then once I got there.

I was like well.

Where's the best restaurant do I read a few blogs first or do I look at TripAdvisor what's the easiest place to me to consume that right now and I think most people do peace there own kind of jigsaw puzzle together of what they need when they researching that.

Simon it is interesting is that I'll be that used to be that a travel company might have given you a tailor-made trip.

I'm not saying these things they don't exist they still exist but much more often people are doing it themselves and do you think that they look at a number of resources and pieces together? I was so interested to her when you mentioned TripAdvisor because that is in many ways a wonderful resource because it completely opens up bag travel journalism which is good anything which encourages competition has to be good it can be very useful but you've got to bear in mind that some is often said that if you want the new hotel first person to write a TripAdvisor review is the hotelier the next person is their spouse III review is a bad one from the hotelier down the road and then Anna and you've got no way.

I would much prefer to trust Chloe who is doing this professionally already.

Did I book writer to know how they would evaluate something professionally?

Describe how these different sources I suppose the thing which not distresses me or concerns me but to interest me is the way that the traditional Guidebook has become more and more marginalized at a time when actually is so much information around on the internet that if you're spending £1,000 on holiday and extra 20 quid on a decent Guidebook to Vietnam is money well-spent because you're going to get somebody who is Sam Lavery all the streets eating at the restaurants and and evaluated its them in a professional Michael what you think of the of the date of the travel journalism that you were journalists do what we just before.

I'm just picking up on what the TV was saying last week.

We like to TripAdvisor as a resource it it is frustrating as well because you are what I often want is a trained journalist to cut through the noise and the problem with TripAdvisor is that who is Barbara for Milwaukee and

Do I actually have your opinion so it can be a useful resource, but it's Simon saying you can't beat that traditional Guidebook be properly trained John Hurt has been to that destination and that's what we do.

So we ensure that the journalist goes to the places has eaten in the restaurant has been to the hotel and the summer quality control because one of the problems isn't it with TripAdvisor you don't know whether that person that's the very very first experience of a backpacker's or 6 star hotels.

Oh actually you don't know what people are comparing it with and it got journalist to your traveling and doing that all the time.

Hopefully they do and sometimes people use it as an opportunity.

Just a bad mouth and unfortunate situation which is it necessarily representative of the restaurant of the resort.

I'd like to talk about one other thing while I've got you all here and that's the idea of press trips like trucks press trips used to be very popular where there's a will you gets with 25 journalists Tudor

Put them on a tray a plane to Tenerife film full of champagne and canapes and give them a very quick try to look round a new hotel.

Can you give them loads of pr.

Bump about that and hope that they wrote it all up for you.

I want to know do they still exist do journalists use them and do and do bloggers use them have they moved from giving journalist to get time to giving blogger to good time well.

I've not been on one so I can't really talk about how they cheaper.

I do know they still exist because every day.

I will get maybe 3 or 14 never been 179 why I like you, but they definitely exist because I get two emails offering me places on press trips Michael have you been on one I have and as a company we do not go on them anymore that said we will do individually arranged trips.

We will clearly state that it has been compte.

But it doesn't necessarily guarantee a good write up, so Are or journalist will go or additives will go on a trip if it's organised independently, but it was interesting at world travel market last year.

I had a bit of an argument with the travel PR saying can I just sit to say that this is the big Vodafone UK and worldwide travel event which happens every October in a huge Exhibition Centre in in East London correct ratio should I should have stated that but I had an argument with the pr saying hang on you're being paid by a resort and yet you expect me to pay for all of the printing and descend the journalist and take the photographs etc.

Etc.

Maybe you should get your plan to advertise good thinking I've been on quite a few press trip.

So you can bet you have actually been on some as a journalist cos I do do some in-flight magazines and occasional articles for papers and I've also been on lot's as a blogger.

They are actually completely different so press trip.

Journalist yes you get taken to all the loveliest spots in the area and hopefully they get a great write-up of where you went at the end with blogger trips the big difference is that they give you so much free time because the point of having blogger on a campaign is that they go find what interests them and come back with their own content mate.

Maybe they need to shoot a video you can't just do that in 10 minutes when you visit a hotel his the hotel leave go to the next place.

We need time when your flexibility and that's the biggest kind of contrast but personally I prefer kind of my own trips where I plan my own itineraries and I'm not cutting round with a lot of other people who are all kind of conflicting advice face.

Oh, yeah.

It's a much better experience when you can go on your own and find your own space, so I'm fine.

Thank you all very much indeed for joining us on their sharing your stories with us today.

Thank you.


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