Read this: Sex, drugs and TV debates

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, I'm Andrea catherwood, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 The Daily is one of the most popular podcasts on the planet its host Michael dibari will be telling me why and it is the big election that motorbike most of us won't play any part in so it's the media doing a good enough job in holding to account on our behalf the candidates to be Prime Minister I'll be joining Little Lady by Emily maitlis, who's hosting at the BBC's debate with leadership hopefuls next week, but first the front page headline of today's Daily Mail reads will go to prison over TV licences the paper claims that Britons over 75's are in a full-scale rebellion after the BBC announced on Monday that it will no longer fund free TV licences for them anyone ever 75 not on Pension Credit will have to pay the full £154 a year Age UK the

Campaigning charity for older people to set up a petition to save the Free TV licence the sun has also joined the campaign their front page today reds Leeds rage, UK or Caroline Abrahams is Age UK charity director Caroline how many people have signed a petition now? I think almost 350000 the the numbers every time.

I look the numbers gone up.

So it is moving up very quickly not licences for over a 75 used to be paid for by the government until quite recently then it was the responsibility of the BBC the BBC so they just couldn't afforded in fact it would lead to the closure of major services.

So what do you want to see happen? Who do you want to see pick up the tab? We want to see the government pick up the tab and that's what I'll petition says we agree that the the decision that the BBC's been faced with his extremely difficult and of course lots of older people love their television and their radio and they don't want to see any any.

Can you shins to service either but they want to keep having their TV licence for free? That's particularly important for those who are on very low incomes of course the government are already decided it wasn't going to do that.

Do you really think that this petition is going to have the power to get them to change their mind I probably not on its own but I think there's a sort of gathering a number of people of celebrities of other news outlets as you've mentioned that are taking this campaign up and so I think it's perfectly possible that other one of the other topics you're going to be talking about on your programme of the leadership election for the Conservative Party it may well become a topic that those candidates are faced with I think 5 out of the 12 have already said that they support the continuation of the Free TV licence and so I'll tasker date UK of course is to try and ensure that all of them to that's what we want to see this should never have been outsourced by the government to the BBC in the first place.

It was completely the wrong thing to do it wasn't fair on the BBC and it's

Affair with older people and the government should accept that and a new prime minister.

Take it back if that doesn't happen.

What are you expecting the over 75 to do? Are you calling on them? Not to pay their license? Course? We're not we wouldn't do you want to say such a thing as a as a reputable registered charity but actually just today.

I was hearing a fun three older people who are quite clear that they're not going to pay it if they made to and if that means they ultimately end up going to prison.

They would do that as a matter of Conscience of course.

There will be all sorts of different reactions to this should it come to it? I think a lot of older people just be rather confused by this and actually rather worried because remember this applies to people who are you don't from 75 up with so you're going to have people in their late 90s even over 100 who have not paid for a TV licence for a very long time and then they suddenly going to have to start doing so I think it is a recipe for chaos of homemade.

So so we will be watching with story closely Caroline Abrahams Age UK thank you.

Very much not today.

It seems that everyone's got a podcast from retired footballers to your local council very few are actually popular and even fewer make money but one of the world's most successful, is this one x oh my god, this is a bit the daily from the New York Times have been going for a just two years, but it's not reported to make over 10 million dollars a year and advertising revenue lot of cash from a very simple format each day the Host Michael Vivaro chat to a fellow New York Times reporter about a single story and each day the daily gets 2 million listeners around the world will the borrower has been in the UK last week are as the New York Times makes a push for more subscribers over here.

He came into the media show studio and I asked him why he's show had such a peel.

Is there a laugh and a pretty audacious.

Bad that people would trust us to tell one story really really well explain something very deeply illuminating idea very richly and I think we deliver on their promise, but that was that was kind of courageous and unusual because most new shows almost by definition start with a series of headlines today and we say today put yourself in her hands for the next 20 minutes to take you on a journey here and at the end of the show we might give you a little bit of headlines a sprinkling of avenues from the day before and so I think that the unconventional approach surprised people at first and then I'm in India data that you say that it is essential that you come under the banner of a New York Times tell me tell me about that the audio expression overtime so this August 1340 Newsroom that is reported in all over the world and for the most part the narrators of our stories on the show or journalist at the time so I'm an economist.

With or who are Disney writing directly to a listener and then frequently we marry that with an interview that will do with somebody that he met out in the world and we come up with his interesting innovative iterations of how to make a Prince story uniquely Rd actually reaching new listeners, but you reaching people who didn't buy or don't buy the New York Times regularly the audience for the daily is different from the type only four star of the show the audience was of course help.

There's a heavy over in our dream was that that overlap were getting smaller and smaller wanted to find new people and that the success but I think we had that were proud of David young people who don't subscribe to The Times newspaper and swelling out of print paper they listen to The Daily the engage with a daily are my boss saying don't look at the New York Times who who helped oversee the creation of the show he caused the daily the new front page of the New York Times because it's a morepro true.

Or human informal front door to this is pretty intimidating place.

That's a really big playing I mean wow that you front door of the New York Times it's if it's very humbling is pretty surprising actually I think about that you talk just about the business model you got a lot of new listeners, and I'm who don't subscribe to the New York Times New York Times subscription online right, so you've got a pay for it.

Just don't have to pay for your podcast daily free that must be business conversation that you've had yes, so you don't pay for the daily but

Once we start the show people on musically and email us and ask could they pay for the daily should they be able to do and what we realise was that there was going to be a level of Engagement with the show that we were turning on people to the x in a way that we can then.

Convert amazonica, businessperson for just a minute into subscribers and at what happen if you listen to the show carefully you will hear produces come on in ads on the show saying if you like the daily new wants for the daily subscriber the types and we tell people that and they into a remarkable degree they have subscribed so you're actually not driving traffic to get New York Times in terms of numbers and money so Advertiser advertising on the gonna talk about that because of Vanity Fair has quoted 8 figure sum for advertising that something like 10 million US Dollars is that accurate I think what the numbers that we gave me and Lisa are accurate the show you know through advertising learns significant revenue that is pumped back into the news on how many people work on the program because it sounds like he's about 15 result now in the daily was started immediately triggered some other competitors in the newspaper Walter to create daily news shows in the one piece of Wi-Fi to give him is he now.

Don't think that you can start this thing with two or three or even four people because we tried making the daily with four people for about a year and it is nearly killed us.

It's so now to know now.

It's in the in the 15th syringe we can hear more of Michael barbaro in the media Show podcast which will be up this evening and again on Friday because he'll be the star of the BBC's beyond today podcast which you should be able to get via the BBC Sounds app will listen to that was Nick Newman of the reuters Institute for the study of journalism as luck would have it has co-authored a report published today on this very topic the reuters Institute digital news report looks at trends in News business around the world welcome news podcast like the daily are really no global phenomenon as you suddenly interview many many news providers in the last year.

I've started daily news podcasts and they've become to varying degrees successful.

It's really driven by

I will across the world what we find is 36% of people on average are in the countries were looking at consumer podcast and 15% say that they're consuming something around news and politics.

Not necessarily one of these podcasts but something related to it and I think the reasons are that it's a combination of better distribution new platforms.

Not just Apple anymore.

You've got smartphones combined with the headphones better headphones and better content more content coming through and as we also had the interview the business model starting to emerge as well and it's really that combination which means that Paul Constable kinds are floating around the world do podcasts have the potential to challenge mainstream outlets at as sources of news.

What do they really only work as an extension of an existing title like the New York Times I think it's two things going on so so talk to some extent its traditional brands taking audio to new places soap.

Caillou to multitask not just in the home which what radio did but actually taking that out.

You were to walk in the park or when you're exercising the gym, so that's that sort of part of it and traditional brands, but but you also seeing a minute time is it is an innovator and a disruptor and the space because it's from a newspaper background and it's coming reinventing audio only heard my cover Barrow they're talking about some turning it upside down almost even starting with a single story of numbering the news at the end and these news podcasts are really news that are essentially current affairs news doesn't really work in podcast format.

It doesn't have the immediacy but it does have the authenticity and ASDA hooks which is why people look forward to it.

It's it's it's there entertaining and let your report also finds that podcast of growing as a source of news and current affairs particularly as you said but there are quite a few other alternative new store sources that are also out there these days absolutely man one of the one of the real themes in a report this year of the last.

12 years has been the growth of different kinds of networks we got used to Facebook of courses sort of music but but now it's in Whatsapp being used not just me not particularly in western countries actually but around the world as someone like South Africa or Brazil over 50% of people are using WhatsApp now for news for sharing use for discussing used and it's completely local news that individuals with another actually as larger news providers using WhatsApp to combination of things so I mean the thing about WhatsApp you can't really distributes very easily.

So lot of this organic as some of it in Brazil is actually people sharing audio notes at within within WhatsApp so again different kinds of communication different types of information are working in these new networks and I'll see part of the problem with the spread of those networks is that it's it's less transparent you can't see what's going on.

So it's also a place where misinformation disinformation is being spread in places like India and Brazil nickname.

They're from the voices Institute for the study of journalism the race to be the next prime minister.

Very few of us will gonna say in its outcome because once Tory MPs Whittle the candidates down to the final to conservative party members around the country will choose one of them to be the next leader and this makes the medias job of scrutinising those in the Running that much more important some of the big Media moments will be the various TV debates that have been organised on Sunday evening Channel 4 News host the first and 90 minute to meet among the candidates while Sky News is planning its own head-to-head with the final two for later in the month and the first of the BBC's events is this Tuesday at 8 p.m.

On BBC One our next prime minister? It'll be hosted by Emily maitlis will earlier I asked her which of the candidates will still be in the race by then that is the big question comes just after the second coming at the slog route.

Where does a vet II VAT round of voting for the first?

One is on Thursday we don't know how many will get that point in an ideal world.

It would be somewhere between 4 and 6.

I think that would be that would be optimum but we have to respond to that's a part of the challenges only having 2 hours between the voting and the actual debate until if they need over 33 votes and we just don't know how many people at this stage.

We don't know how many candidates are going to get bad.

What's really interesting is that the secret ballot element of all day so we know all those who've declares and we know Boris Johnson appears to be the runaway favourite terms of those MP votes right now technically I mean mathematically many could go through to that second round still and we won't know if people shift or they say one thing or if there's lots of people that have made pledges publicly that decided differently in the privacy of the back.

So how many podiums have you ordered that is well?

Would I be revealing something huge if I said now then might not be a podium insight wow well, that is a scoop.

Have you got a commitment then from all of those candidates that they will actually turn up to that leaders Debate and just a few hours as you say after they know if they've got through well.

It's not like they will only have 2 hours to prepare and they have been sent letters of invitation.

They've gone out to every candidate the date is known the time is known and clearly it will depend weather's they're still in the game at that point of eight 8 on Tuesday the 18th of June women talks with every single one nobody's refuse to pulled out so we hope we will get all the candidates up on the stage that are still left in the race nothing.

That's really important you mentioned Boris Johnson a lot of campaign today.

Clearly he is the moment of bookies favourite is kept them really low profile up tonight and he's been rather elusive on the interview circuit.

I'd say what do you do if he doesn't show up I think.

Well, I mean I think people will remember what happened in 2017 when Theresa May chose not to I think it's not a particularly good.

Look for somebody that is hoping to be not just their party's leader but our next prime minister to somehow feel that they want to avoid questions from the public from the electorate and I'm sure Boris Johnson will recognise that and feel really strongly not just that it is a chance to be accountable but of chance to introduce yourself to the people.

It's not about me.

It's me about the BBC it's about anyone who's asking questions anyone who's gone to a studio and put their own question to him all the people that will be watching in a pretty Prime Time slot and I don't know why you wouldn't take that opportunity to to make your pictures are so you talked about 2 people asking questions that the electrode essentially asking questions tell me more about the format of the show from what we know where we're being a social.

D&D campaign at the moment which is to let everybody know that their questions are welcome and we are receiving questions by email.

I think that I have your say bbc.co.uk email to tell us what they like to be honest so that what we doing that debate for an hour is reflect the kinds of questions that people telling us.

They want answers to ad on the night there will be a big screen where we get people to ask questions live themselves.

It won't be as a studio audience because that takes you into a rather complicated area of how you balance the audience that the audience and I think then you start getting something that feels more like a question time Arena which you know it's going to happen anyway the following week, so the idea is just that people live members of the public can go to BBC studio right around the UK and ask the question themselves and we then put it to the can.

They can't be candidate specific.

But they can be a general area of interest or a specific question to each candidate which hopefully I will then try and get clarification on with the answers, so the public will be able to go to the TV studios around the country you still like the Eurovision Song Contest that was exactly what came to my house.

What could possibly go wrong.

I'm not like of course that debates and general elections.

When did the brexit Debate and ordered Eurovision Song Contest the vast majority of viewers of course I'm not going to be able to vote for the winner.

That's reserved for conservative party members, so that does a part of you think what's the point of any of it of the vast majority of Us won't go to sign the outcome.

I think the opposite.

I mean I think what you said is so true.

We calculated it's I think 0.27% of the electorate 160000 people and the fact that it feels so closed off in terms of the boat itself means that it is imperative for us to remember that this next person is going to be the leader of our country so 2.

Not somehow see that person perform in front of the whole nation would be a dereliction of Duty I think I think that MPs should also be very conscious of how those candidates perform on the stage 2 questions from the school not members of the audience for members of the public for around the country because surely as an MP you want to understand not just for your own party likes not just who you might get a job from but actually where where the nation is sitting you know that is a really important part of what comes next were in the most critical political 3-4 months and I think that the idea that you wouldn't want to take that to the country as a whole would be Madness Emily maitlis speaking to me earlier.

We know how influential the media can be in a general election, but what about this leadership contest where most of us?

Have no vote would have discussed the Media's role.

I'm joined by Katy balls.

The Spectator is Deputy political editor who hosted the Tories One Nation hustings in fact you was actually the only journalist there and Katherine Forster of the Sunday Times welcome to both of you at first of all.

I think I'm sure that you too will be watching that TV debates but said how many how many normal people do you think will bother to tune in I mean I imagine it'll be of more interest and perhaps prime Minister's Questions which isn't particularly well.

What about I do think a lot of people interested in this because clearly there to audiences in the story leadership contest and one is the people who get a say which is the first the Tory Party and types of the MPs and the membership and the second is the general public you'll have to put up with this person as prime minister.

I think a lot of people do you want to follow this and actually hear the conversation even if they had to have a frustration that they don't get to pick but they can always tell the MP

He that personal preferences obviously it's up to the MP where they actually take that on board Celtic Katie mention.

There's something that's that's very interesting in this there are in essentially two separate audiences here for all of the candidates when they're talking to the media.

There is there a grassroots Tory Party Association members are the ones who are actually going to get to vote for them and then there's everybody else and over audiences might want to hear slightly different messages.

Yes, yes absolutely and and also do a 160000 conservative party members together to make the decision over half of those over 55.

So they are predominantly much more for a clean brexit hard brexit want to call it what you will than the MPs I am and they are likely to go for somebody who is going to say we will take you out despite the fact that mean in Parliament has narrowly avoided taking No Deal off the table, but they are much more.

Trident interview is there may be a lot of people are in the wider electro Casey on interested in the amount of access that you've been getting to the candidates which might indicate the extent to which they think they need the media to win, but I think it is very for every cancer and it will see various on I suppose how well I think there are faring.

It is definitely the case at the front runner and this is also the case in a general election often feels like they don't need to bother with talking to journalists and the media as much and I think you can see that in what's happening with the Boris Johnson campaign it's been like into the song called of Tia submarine campaign.

He hasn't really done much.

He's done one big print interview in the Sunday Times at the weekend.

I don't think he's really done much broadcaster tool Evans expecting him to come forward.

I was at his launch this morning.

Where is official I said he did take 6 questions from journalists.

I think because he has taken so few questions in the past couple of weeks people wanted if you more than that, but that was really first time we saw him interacting that's

Letters in large, because Boris Johnson campaign team think the only really has things to lose me.

It's actually his supporters Bude Beth Rigby from from Sky TV so actually perhaps that that supporters in the room went quite as there is happy to see the journalist.

There is nobody movie.

They might have been texting at the back of the room when they're free be asked a question where she raised previous comments by Chancellor made on the Becca and there was impacting and I think you did say out very badly for the campaign now Boris Johnson in response to be freebies question did say this is a good question it does that answer but you are clearly associated by that I think if you compare Boris Johnson's Tactics and his campaign Tactics on I suppose not doing much Media to a candidate like Rory Stewart who is seen as an outside that I think to put it mildly and therefore is doing everything.

I think I can't really go and social media about seeing another interview.

He is done all the video he himself has made and I think that reflects the fact that they really feeling need to make.

This impression cannot talk a little bit about Rory Stewart at his Twitter videos are they are they essentially a waste of time? I mean he has been criticized little bit for being a media darling.

They might appeal a lot to two journalists, but are they playing well with grassroots Tories how many people who are going to vote at the end of the day or actually on Twitter far fewer then the jealousy Stanway to spend far too much time on Twitter but more of the Conservative Party membership will be on Facebook and older older voters older members are on Facebook so that's why Tommy Robinson has spent 50000 in the last week with targeted.

You know messaging on Facebook and those targeted messages have really been targeted at people who are over 55.

Well.

Yes, because those are the people that they believe are most likely to want get it out.

Get it out with without a deal if you have to provide polym.

Do that I mean I think there is a feeling they're more than a stock Boris campaign is more of a stock ROM because I think is a feeling that he actually is deadly serious about taking it out on the 31st October where is Boris Johnson Matthey surname may or may not be more persuadable some of the candidates have extraordinarily Close links to particular papers in if you just look at today's papers Sarah vine the mails column that appears on the front page in a photograph with her husband.

Who is a course Michael Gove and Boris Johnson used to write for the Telegraph how do you think Katie that's affecting the car recovery so getting what is always interesting on Sunday because you wanted to add a role reversal the Michael Gove is traditionally a x man if you look in his background as a journalist and he had a big interview on that which is what he wants to talk about on Sunday with the Sunday Telegraph where is Boris Johnson and he was traditionally a tachograph man regular users that column to get as a message request was in the Sunday Times

I don't think any of these candidates were ever going to struggle for media coverage anyway given that there as soon as favourites to be Prime Minister but you can certainly see that through I suppose that they have pick of the Saturdays income of favorable to to get an appointed view across and clearly Sarah vine.

Is it award-winning columnist in her own right and but I think give what's happened of Michael Gove over the weekend claims in this biography at he's admitted to drug use I think it was clearly Sarah's find choice to then make that her topic this week.

Jeremy Corbyn won the leadership of the Labour Party he didn't really have supports many of the mainstream newspapers, but he did have a very successful social media strategy.

It almost seems like the Tory leadership race.

It is the opposite of that in other words than 20 members by larger paying a lot more attention to the front page of the Mail on Sunday for example than than what they read on social media.

Do you see this is always colder aggressive campaign or one that's very good for mainstream, Media

I don't ever see as regressive.

I think there is definitely case that the Tory membership is older the way you go that back that is there much more like to read the Telegraph then perhaps goes on certain social media platforms, but also think of something else going on I speaking to one member of campaign team earlier and they don't really think the role of the mood is that important ole Ola strictly right now they see this is a mechanical process about convincing MPs and distant you need to hold the line and terms of media coverage, so I think it's impart that some campaign medium.

Just don't think they need to even try so do you think that Boris Johnson will turn out for the television debates? I think it's 50/50 and at the moment.

I would say that it's perhaps I know but they have time to be pressured health room.

I've certainly think he won't want to I'm unsure whether he will but I think he really should I think it will look terrible not that it will stop in becoming an ex Prime Minister if he doesn't show at all ok, what time is defeated us today? I'm afraid but thank you both cafe.

Fosters from the Sunday Times and Katy balls of The Spectator for those insights and thanks also to my other guests today the BBC Emily maitlis Michael Barrow of the daily Nick Newman from the reuters Institute for the study of journalism and Caroline Abrahams of Age UK will be back the same time next week and don't forget the media.

Show is available on a podcast find us via the BBC Sounds app.