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Read this: Media Masters - Dominic Smales

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Media Masters - Dominic Smales…

Media matters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media masters at series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game, Dominic smales founder and chief executive of gleam futures after spending 15 years in Media Production and advertising at companies including chrysalis and USB content he set up gleam futures in 2010 the company is one of the biggest digital first talent management companies in the world and represents clients such as Tanya Burr Zoe Sugg aka.

Zoella pixiwoo Grace fit and Jack Maynard Dominic has been previously recognised in the debretts 500 most influential people in the UK the bookseller power 100 wired magazines 100 most powerful and the Business Insider coolest 100 people in tech don't thank you for joining me.

Thank you for having me coolest people many of these lists.

Am I on any of those why are you then come on tell us I think the point there is 2016.

People in tech and they charged me to receive a little trophy to put in the office as well perhaps.

They just after that extra revenue all you do is pretty cool.

Isn't a lesbi honest.

Let's just dispense with the formalities are pretty awesome job.

It is I say and have said in the past number of times.

It's the best job in the world absolutely listeners.

What do you actually do so I run a company called gleam Futures and we are digital first talent management company so we develop and manage the careers of people that have developed an audience on digital platforms first so YouTube Instagram underlay and the like and the such like absolutely and then it's about expanding those careers beyond those platforms are but we are experts at people that started their careers on digital platforms first of all member in about that their young girl who's on Instagram with millions of followers.

I couldn't even sell 23 t-shirts though.

So how do you do in how do you monetize it was that I wish you had.

I thought the forgotten her name was there implied in the question if I'm honest ok well back in 2010 when the business was founded it was a very different landscape than it is now and 2019 and to give you an idea of how far is come in 2010 if you went on her there's a website called social Blade that tracks the metrics and numbers behind the amount of people that profess to be creators on these platforms if you went on socialblade in 2010 and that there might be 15000 creators on social media platforms now.

There's 25 million creators on social media platform so between 2010 and now there's been an absolutely enormous explosion in just the volume of many people that are making a living on social media, but also businesses that come into the ecosystem to profit from all of the other ways of making money.

Innerspace and there Rising Tide lifts all boats but is there a bit of a dilution here actually to mix my metaphors that with all of those many millions of people now doing it that isn't it even more difficult to stand out in An Audience absolutely like everything I guess, our challenge is now more than it's ever been to stand out as the quality option and it's the same for the talent also in that the barriers to becoming nowadays, they called influences the barriers to becoming an influencer are pretty much non-existent if you've got an internet connection and a smartphone you can download Instagram and set up an Instagram account call yourself an influencer all those barriers are either very low or virtually non-existent.

So yeah, there's just an enormous volume of people in the space.

So it could be seen to a polity polity.

I mean I read an article recently about influences that are pretending that they've the holidays have been sponsored.

By troublegum is the relative just paid for it themselves, but they they want the cashier of having faking being a brand ambassador, is there a lot of a lot of that going on at the moment? Yeah? It's a really aspirational job to have to be a professional influencer or a professional digital first Talent and you will find that.

There's a certain amount of cache that comes with a hey.

I'm being paid to go on holiday or all of those kind of things so with that again as part of the Challenge for the whole industry is to be able to recognise.

What really good work looks like and that's their job work.

We got to do what does good work look like then.

I'm fascinated by this well.

Good work involves.

They're being genuine engagement between the Creator and the audience that's consuming the content that they create good work is people that can create content that is basically good quality, so if your podcast had terrible audio.

And really boring content then it wouldn't be as popular as someone them had achieved that level but that level of quality this has terrible content but it's recorded and really well on me of course not your good self and the same same applies really but there are mediums that have been around for a lot longer, so they've got a lot more experts in them that are more adept at noticing what good looks like than this particular medium ie social media Talent animal gif and I'm 44 so maybe I just don't get this ready, but I mean I follow a few people on Instagram but I can see that with my nieces for example.

Is that they spend so much more time on it and gave you things but I haven't I'm struggling to see how they would monetize it.


It like any other job in the Entertainment Business that has people entertaining audiences at scale then there are is a commercial site to it because it's not only the brands that want to partner with these guys in.

How to reach those audiences but also there's the creation of IP that depending on how good it is can be very valuable so if you look at I don't know your your nieces who may have the number of Instagram followers, how would your nieces a 14 and 16 right ok? So they might well have Instagram followers but do they have a relationship with those followers that allows monetization sour demonetizing that I mean books and video series.

How does it actually work? We know how does someone likes Zoella earn her money.

So there are a number of revenue streams and it is about creating content that people want to engage with them sometimes.

You can put them on platforms that you need to buy so a published book for example.

There's a publishing deal there that and money.

They are developing brands and we've helped Talent grow global brands themselves that are distributed in the same way any brand you can think of will be distributed in there's money there in the distribution.

As well as in some small part.

There are revenue shares within the platform themselves for advertising that featured on the on the platforms, so if you're a traditional brand is trying to attract young female audiences then someone like Zoella is a great person to partner with absolutely.

Yeah, so Zoe is and the very top tier of trusted creators for that type of content and she has a very large female young female audience so how would you how do you advise someone like that then to maximize their they're reaching impact because in a sense.

It is who she is that the that her audiences connecting with so you are you the experts at turning that into a business proposition then I'm making it sustainable.

We say we protect develop and monetize and it's about trying to build sustainable careers for people that find themselves in a situation where they have a a large audience.

I think that's probably where the word influencer when it was invented a few years ago has kind of distracted from that because it vanilla Rises

That even the word of an effort is it but it makes vanilla the job of doing that we're interested in people that are making valuable content and content this valuable to specific audiences and then we help them not only connect with partners that want to work with them on creating content together that might be a brand that might be a publisher.

It might be a clothing manufacturer.

Are we also work with them to build a strategy for a career that has longevity and we also do, peripheral things as well like a helping with finding quality and trusted partners with for publicity or making their own line of match or protecting them when it comes to legal and business affairs all kinda stuff even come of accompanying them down red Carpets when they've got a big night out.

I mean 42 million followers.

I think so well as across all of the various platforms.

Son of influences just on her.

I mean when you when you see some of the BBC news channel reviewing the papers on a night you know that they can best help to sell soul to a 300000 copies only compare that to 42 million.

It's like a traditional Media hasn't truly caught up with the sheer power and scale of this because frankly it seems to me like it's a generational thing that the old old gif as a running new song just dance scene the skillful.

This is a kind of luck as a constant question and line of conversation.

I don't think this isn't the death knell for all other forms of Media but this is the realisation that there has been a seismic shift in the way that a generation consume their entertainment and Talent so you will probably is quite clear now that even if your traditional Talent that has made their name and but they're all didn't on television.

It's just as pertinent that they have a following on social media also and then engage with those people as well as the passage TV show that babe.

Post is about recognition that these are valuable and fireball channels that can't be ignored anymore and we have to engage with audiences across all of those channels in a completely kind of agnostic way.

I guess we'll give you the other day for gleam futures I eat so I worked in media, but most of my working life and left college and got a job at marketing agencies and then I went into a big Media owners.

I Daily Mail and General trust and then Christmas radio which is now of course grown and merged and grown and is now a global radio and I ended up working at a small production company that made TV and radio content and it was during that time so long and Jesus story about had a big health episode basically that made me kind of question life and while I was doing I decided that I wanted to take more control on my destiny and all of those kind of things and I quit and started a small consultancy that dealt.

Social media because it was a realisation that I found social media and the platforms on social media fascinating has a media guy and I was fascinated to see where they would go in the future and so I started consulting with brands like weight and start a man consultancy and started consulting with brands on social media, but during those first few months and met a couple of girls who were running a YouTube channel called pixiwoo then and is it to makeup tutorials are Sam and NIC Chapman who were basically teaching an audience how to apply makeup but in a professional services a professional makeup artist and we met and got on and I was really interesting what they're doing and I could see that it would only grow I can see that the platform will only grow these guys as well.

Just make up artist teach me baddie.


They had bags of charisma, and I knew that I could walk them into a room with potential partners and they would be charming and presentable and although.

Things in and had the Makings of Talent that I haven't had much dealing with Talent other than we had agents at the production company that the managing TV and radio presenters, but I wasn't hands-on managing the more agent in them and we're doing this as a hobby at that point professional professional makeup artists and the proposition was that I think we could make more of what you're doing on YouTube they said well.

I got a manager you want to manage.

It's alright well alright.

I'll give it a crack and they introduce me to their friends and to their family actually also so who are all starting out on YouTube at that time this is 2010/2011, so it's very early days in YouTube Talent terms and their channels were also driving so I started brokering deals for them and it was specifically I guess you a question was about what gave me the idea.

It was a realisation that here is there an entertainment platform.

That is only going to grow I store and here are here is a new form of Talent that is only going to grow an interesting as well that Talent is about connecting with audiences in hyper.

Railways and Mrs at a point when reality TV and audience are getting more more savvy about what is really what is fake and all that kind of stuff analytical structured reality and yeah, even getstoryline consultants on so-called reality television shows like love Island yeah, I bet they're the kind of golden egg in there was this Talent to be able to perform properly and impart knowledge or entertain and then the unique relationship between Italian and their audience and those two things growing in the future.

I saw her before gone things basically so that's when I took her to the league pass away, what kind of stresses and strains do you have on the

Holland and given that it is this hyper connectedness this hyperreal.

I mean giving it will be blue uploading YouTube videos on a daily basis people must feeling incredibly meaningful and deep connection which is actually only one sided of course I say it wasn't one-sided there was a two-sided relationship for show the audience plays a really important role in The Italian the audience dynamic.

I see it with my own climie Matt Goss is one of our clients and you don't we tickets like 400 responses now.

You know he can't respond to phone people know I guess not then listen.

This is another kind of like misconception is that I've had a have a lot of conversations where everybody says patio.

I'm in the wrong job.

I'm going out to be making YouTube videos of my bedroom and earning a living because it seems like all that looks easy the last thing is is easy the people that are the top of their game are people that have applied years and years of hard work tenacity late nights always on.

Dealing with the pressure of the scrutiny of a very large audience constantly and not in the same way as you know I'm III appear on a TV show then I'll wait for the critics in the papers the next week or the next day.

It is an immediate feedback over social media within seconds + some negativity that can come with it and they don't have can I have another layer of producers and editors and so on and so forth between them and what the audience the same thinking so it it comes directly to the Creator in The Creator it is basically putting their personality.

I'm out there out there incredible.

I'm so here a vulnerability that yourself quite often you have to develop a thick skin and you also have the developer and ability I guess to deal with that kind of criticism at a particular level so that it doesn't affect you quite deeply in emotionally but

It is a tough job, do I need your clients share anything in common? Is it that resilience is it like a tenacity? Is it a thick skinned other any commonalities between them? Yeah, they mean all of the creative people and I think it's often forgotten as well.

How creative these guys are because they are producing things certainly to begin with totally on their own and the other thing is that there's a kind of like an innate entrepreneurialism that they have like a drive and ambition.

Yeah absolutely that requires the powerful ways on approach to producing content is also an enormous passion that drives them all that makes it most of the time it absolute pleasure and you've tried using algorithmic products.

Have you not think of a new stars? How's that work? Well? We haven't actually up to this point so we we there's a team of I don't know XL 50 people that gleam who all of which are?

Best with digital first Talent that's what we do an incredible.

It's fellow, employee my first life 50 people end of the month yet.

I do repent me and all of them have this passion about this reverse Talent in common.

It's all we do is always with ever done.

It's not kind of an arm of the business that have been an offshoot of an item after is all we do and so we discovering new Talent all the time just organically because people that sit on the floor reclaim both in London Los Angeles and in Sydney or spot people all the time now if someone comes up on the radar and I'm doing rabbit ears for round the word radar on someone comes up on the radar then it's obvious if they are going to be good because we colour know there is a certain amount of gut feeling that goes into it.

So there's been an explosion of algorithmic products that Drive Discovery a fast Grant Allen or

People that are talking about specific subjects and of course they will play their part in the future.

I'm sure but at the end of the day when you are talking about people that are just great and I going to be great.

I think that then there has to be a human subjective lens that we review it through basically.

That's what we apply going to get discovered because I've been labouring away This podcast for free miserable years and I still haven't been discovered, but let's say was a handsome algorithm discovered me are there other gleams and do you have competitors that that I might have competing offers from yes, we are we do we have a lot of competitors.

Nowadays blaze the trail and then these Johnny come lately is coming in there.

There's sneaking some of the business will certainly in this country.

We were absolutely the first in the States it was a bit more sophisticated.

She was saying they were at the west coast of America is the birthplace of online video and there are there and it's also the car.

I'd like the Hub of Talent in the world.

I guess and they are managers in the states that we're doing in around the same time and agent as well at some of the big agencies that work spotting the fact that they were created on digital platforms that the driving audiences that could be monetized perhaps but you we will certainly the first in the UK and that gives us a breadth of experience.

I guess that's fairly unrivalled when it comes to working with this type of Talent this now called influences.

It's 50 people that Sam is a scary large number of employees.

How does that work? I mean what how do you on the pie chart? What are the division of responsibilities of what it what are they doing now? They are divided into those Talent managers there a talent coordinators to help the talent managers with the talent because it is a very hands-on business the talent managers.

Not like agents in that there are tens and tens of Talent that the agent ID by the managers their managing them have a very close relationship with the managers with the talent that they deal with there are people that working out publishing department so we had such success Publishing books with the talent that we started our own literary agency in house called gleam titles and there were representing digital-first Talent but in literary.

We have a brand partnerships team that has grown considerably that deals specifically with the relationships between advertising Media agencies brands themselves and then brokering deals between those brands and the talent we have just founded a a brand consultancy called game Solutions which deals with end-to-end solutions for brands with digital first Talent because the space has become.

Very noisy and cluttered and confusing recently, but there's more more interested in how to work with these this type of Talent because the end of the day it's very powerful.

It works and experiences are growing we also have a legal and business affairs department we have the management said people that help me and that is kind of replicated in our other officers also so it's very busy.

It sounds it and these digital first stars as you call them.

Do they become can a broadcast second I mean you ever get there Bake Off come to you and say you know we want to put the next YouTube star on the show does it is that a part of evolution order they tend to stay loyal to their their base through social both our say I mean.

I think there is a big opportunity now for the lines to be for the blood between the mediums.

Would you take on a digital second client that said made their name on bake off but then you wanted to.

Developing a primarily digital presence as an interesting question because if you don't ask me that maybe a year or two ago.

I say no, but I think now there is an opportunity for Talent who are coming up through other platforms that will at the same time or develop a digital audience because of the way of the world so would have to be a specific type of Talent then there is an opportunity to manage them in a kind of like.

I don't know platform agnostic why I guess I think that the levels of expertise that we have on on social media platforms and managing Talent on social media platforms plays to our advantage very much when it comes to dealing with the other platforms as well so TV radio etc, because I think if we were to look at young Talent that naturally use social media platforms anyway, even if their hosting a TV show on ITV or Channel 4 then I think they're

Requisite skills so so I was very long answer.

It's a long allcast so grateful for the digger now.

I think we would but it have to be a specific type of Tallinn so it wouldn't if if someone from Antiques Roadshow approached us and says and said that would like to would like you to represent as with mostly interested in developing a radio format probably say no, but if it were someone that had a really Clear Vision on how they wanted to simultaneously grow there online career alongside the radio and television and I can't see any reason not to say nowadays.

I think audiences are less concerned with specific technology behind the platform that they're being entertained on or consuming their Talent on all their mediabrands on because the platforms are ubiquitous in that I like watching Sam and NIC Chapman teach me how to do make-up for example.

Now if I see them on my TV screen or I see them on my laptop or I see them on my smartphone.

I'm not overly concerned with that it Xbox easiest to consume that content I'll go to it and not think specifically about the brand of the platform.

So that's why I think we've done so when publishing is that for years previous to us publishing any books without telling the publishers would say well.

He's got a really great on YouTube and Instagram but there's no way they're going to send any books because the audience is used to getting all of the content that they can they consume from these guys for free.

So why would I pay to get a paperback book and the result was once we've got a publishing deal and published a book the result was the audience was just into what these guys were producing creative Leia book.

So they would if they were offered a different form of that creativity and it happened to be in the page of the book then that go down to the bookstore and pick up a book and consume that Talent on that platform hell happened about the plough.

Size which ones you can monetize because I mean you can share revenue with YouTube but if it's like Instagram and Facebook there if you creating content for those pages and did they take all the money Dundee from the adverts? Yeah? I think I think that's evolving all the time.

I mean there are there a platforms that don't have any monetization on at all.

Look at tiktok enormous Chinese social media platforms that doesn't that have as far as I know that my booty might change last week is the pace of this industry, but so I know is doesn't have any monetisation or or or had served in to it, but there are Talent on that platform with multi multi millions of followers.

It's about preserving quality though it be the end of the day and audiences whatever platform the talent is on won't pay for engage with content that isn't of a certain quality and what kind of relationship do you have with your clients are but your talent is ukulele on avakin a fundamental level.

I mean you don't Simon Fuller put together.

S Club 7 holidays, bands and you see Justin Timberlake didn't interview with Rolling Stone recently.

I said he only got $100 a week because the guy running sink created it and everything and then give him $15,000 at the end of it in the old left in poverty.

Do you have that type of relationship where you at Simon Fuller you create and control and if someone signs up with you to get £50 a week or or is it more of a traditional agent type railway Zoella read somewhere she gets 50 grand a month from YouTube now.

It doesn't matter what the figures are but do you get like a cut of that? How's it work? I'm not asking for specific use more about how this thing works in principle.

So now going to tell me to book your offer.

Neither is neither of those things out and part of a kind of like agent / manager reputation sometimes is that there are there interfering or there, puppet Masters or anything like that and what goes along with the theme of this medium and DS Talent is there actually what's so powerful about it is the talent of the Editors in chief there the studio bosses there there.

People that have the Direct relationship with the audience so our role is not as a gatekeeper in the same way that you might be in some of those other examples you just gave it's more of a protector facilitator strategist and we commissioned the work that the talent that do the commercial work that the talent do and that's all that our model basically.

It's slightly different on the green Solutions side of things because we are consulting with the Brand on how to best navigate in the influencer world when it count as a marketing tool, so they sent you like a movie director in so far as you know everyone knows Sylvester Stallone directed solid Rockies II III IV VI and VII but no one knows who directed Rocky 1 and Rocky 5 because it's Sylvester Stallone as Rocky that you going to see Quick at is it is a commercial risk that you could be fired in a sense because as long as they're at their the same on.

Screen it doesn't matter who's behind it.

Yeah absolutely I mean we are a service provider.

I would hope that now we're in a position that because we've got 10 years of experience now and we've pretty much kind of like a build an ecosystem around the talent that we represent that being on the gleam futures roster afford a lot of opportunities that are otherwise available because of the relationships and experience and Resources that we've got to be able to maximize the potential in a career of someone who wants to be a digital first Talent or is creating content that they want to explore the boundaries of in terms of how it can be distributed so as the Old adage that they want 80% of a million quid out of the 100% of 100 grand that can talk about 100% of saddle The Saddle fit into the next over the years.

It with no loss of Enthusiasm oh my god, what's next weekend over next 4 years? Where is it all going better big question it is we've got another 3 hours.

So who is going first of all this is an industry.

That is sticking around this whole kind of like entertaining people and growing Talent off of social media platforms the industry moves phenomenally past which is what makes it so exciting and inspiring to be around but it's what I thought it so many opportunities as well and I think that if we can stay ahead of the game a drawing on our unrivalled experience as well, then we can start creating the best work.

That is Yet to Come I think that the knowledge of what good looks like will only increase, so you'll get buyers in the marketplace in the ecosystem will be more and more expert about what they want.

What they expect so we'll see a separation of wheat from chaff as it were over the next couple of years and I think that the people that are doing business with Talent do have audiences on social media platforms to start with your season getting ever more sophisticated about the relationship that they have with them and that means I think we'll see even more exciting work.

I can't wait for the day that we see the the creativity that these guys have but exploited on other platforms with decent budget behind them as well.

So we got some really good Writers on the roster.

We have we have people that got amazing ideas for shows that aren't on social media but but movies and TV shows and we're already creating a lot of really great books excited see where that goes so I think it'll be about more kind of quality in the future.

I guess and it'll be a bit bit more of a defined career in the hurdles to be sick.

Festival on these platforms will probably get a bit higher I would have thought which is only a good thing.

I think it's a bit of a backlash against the in sometimes artificiality of love some of social media in terms of the unrealistic Body Image lifestyle type scenarios the Old jerk, is that you see people that travel places just so they get Instagram them you know did you think that social media this the influences are having a more profound impact on society than we all realise at the moment.

I think they're having a greater impact on society, but I think that the responsibility that the creators take to remain completely authentic is taken more and more seriously because I think that's the future of their success as well as I started off saying I think the audiences on social media are incredibly savvy it's like the wisdom of crowds ever heard that expression of indeed.

They can tell if someone's being.

Ingenuous about anything or Faked anything or set anything up it becomes obvious and it's the same with the arguments over fake followers and all that other stuff it becomes obvious.

I think when people are being disingenuous about what they represent on social media and actually the really valuable and unique thing about the content that these guys are producing is that it does represent an unfiltered version of their life or it can represent and unfiltered version of their life that more and more is being used for positive influence on audiences the proliferation of people portraying very realise on social media that they wouldn't be able to on other platforms is his increasing all the time but I think that's the only good thing but he body positivity and diversity all kinds of mental health issues all kinds of issues that are dealt with really openly and on the whole.

Accepting me as well on social media and I think that's a really good and positive direction for the platforms to moving how do you divide your time personally know? What does a typical week look like for you in the can a pie chart of time management.

Where are you spending your time? It interests me cos you know other entrepreneurs are running businesses because if you can choose to focus on any aspect of the business and anything that you do focus on his going to come in interior least at the expense of something else away.

Where do you choose to prioritise your own personal attention? So I'm I'm concerned primarily with Talent that was why I started the business.

I was fascinated by telling and I love the possibilities of what they could do on these these platforms and ask them my time finding new Talent and helping our global head of Talent as well.

Who also looking for Talent and the head of Talent in their particular regions.

I've never been discovered this far but carry out yet, but it's interesting we're having this chat.

And as now might have been wife invited you all I've discovered and I'm interested as well in the quality of work that is produced and I'm interested in st.

I will last me straight out there now because I'm feeling a first hurdle bigger ideas as well, So how can we develop what we've done what we done many times in the last 3 years.

How can we develop that into something really new and interesting for the future as well.

I really do passion you feel like we're kind of this business by this industry.

I guess if you look at it the oldest takes 10 years old can definitely was Instagram didn't exist 10 years 10 years ago for starters, but if you look at the media landscape and there was nothing to do with influencers YouTubers etc 10 years ago, but I still think we're at the kind of like neolithic age when it comes to what's possible and available in the future, so we just started really and I'm fascinated to see.

Where this goes next on most from turnitin what it involves is an increasing partnership, so how deeply big Media partners invest in that Alexa is not there on these platforms and invest on these platforms and their creativity that is stimulated from those partnerships and that includes brands as well.

So big brand owners that are looking at these guys and these platforms for investment now really properly kind of like putting her a stake in the ground as to write with an m.

Invest in this for the next couple of years and see where it where it goes because we have a belief in it and we just beginning to see those really great Deep partnerships where you can work with someone's to Cheadle EBA publishes a media owner aurora Brand and that's what we're really excited about are there going to be a lot of broken hearts along the way in so far as you are there is a bit of the can of Gold Rush meant.

SIA without SIM a lot of universe successful influences that made some money but there seems to be thousands upon thousands of people you know trying to do this now, and it's it's quite marked now on in traditional Media when someone says they do Instagram as as their career.

You know they can only be a finite number coming up very successful people around the rest of them at when is this going to be another rerun of Hollywood where you get a thousands of people go setting up selling Hollywood every year weighting table still get discovered and 9 out of 10 of them will never be discovered.

Maybe yeah.

I mean I think that your analogy about saving thousands and thousands of people coming but they'll only be a few people that will be very successful at it brings true that so true is rise of anything.

Isn't it? Really any industry Dua a builder or are a publisher or instagrammer? The really good people are going to rise to the top is that kind of quality that.

Are interested in not only as a 360-degree manager but also as a consultant for these brands that want to do commercial business with this Talent and I think that's what we've all if we all focus on that then this industry will shake off their cynicism that you just mentioned and they'll be any nice successful bright future because there is no doubt if you are found to influence the marketing or influence of publishing or influence of TV or whatever when it's done right.

It really works.

Is it harder for new entrants to come in if your Talents of example if I was a budding make-up artist on YouTube it's already been done and done in incredibly successful weird.

I mean that the old adage is there's only a finite number of Innovations that you can make or is that creativity limitless? I think that creativity is limitless.

Lot of Awesome creative people out there.

I mean it's played out in.

Formats like the X Factor that has been going for I don't know how many years now and are there any more people looking sing really well that we can find out there, but yes there are in a people being born all the time and there's some really great creative people being born on have to have some kind of the backstory of total object heartbreak.

They can be summarised in 60 seconds, but I think that's what's tender fuelless industry throughout the future.

Is that there are some great people now though though the people that blazed the trail if that's the expression to start with that was a top of their game now and then there are people that are inspired by them and have started an Instagram feed but they got their own story to tell and their own content to make and it's really good and they're the people they were excited about in the future, and I wouldn't mind pointing out as well at this face.

It's not about just the number next to their name either.

So how many followers they have it's about the quality of the stuff.

The bear creating and I think we're just getting into just had a bit of that a bit too the answer to the question you asked about what's exciting about future is that will be more concerned about that and there are other means of distribution for that great content that don't just rely upon the number of followers next to their name on Instagram or Facebook or YouTube for that matter so interested in Tallinn and that's what everybody should be interested in grout cleaner.

This this whole ecosystem interesting Talent innate Talent and that includes micro meteor and macro Talent and the one thing that happening in common.

Is they have something viable valuable authentic to say and creates a number of Friends are posting on Instagram and they will send me an email saying don't forget to like my post cos they're chasing likes at me quite a few platforms of said that they're considering not publicly showing like.

The count of you count on light county is that something that you think might be healthy? Yeah? I might well be because I think I've got two daughters and they just getting to the age where social medias coming into their internet world and lucky then worry about for them is the the competition that goes on in terms of how many followers have you got I've got this many does that make you better or worse than you know your friend and I think I don't think that's healthy and I would and if you were to talk to the top tier of our Talent as well.

Nowadays, there would be less concerned with the number next to their name.

That's not how they judge themselves.

That's not there.

That's not the calibration of their success for them.

It's about the work that they create minutes about the relationship.

They have with their audience however big or small but if I'm some middle-aged middle ranking marketing executive who looks after does Beano soap.

I am going to be looking at follower count and as well because that's what I've been conditioned to think is what matters rather than genuine reach your engagement.

I would love to cancel that middle-age marketing executive and say that shouldn't be your primary Concern at all.

You should be looking at other metrics that go beyond the vanity metrics and play much more too much more meaningful and sustainable measures of success and the little grinder platform because I was thinking I can't remember the point young ladies name but there was the and the young girl that did that nurse on Friday that was on YouTube where her parents are basically paid a company to write a song for and produced the music video and she said she would have terrible mental health Arms kazakos you subject of ridicule from millions of people and I was was a bit of fun really.

Did you get do you get sort of rich dad's approach? You say I want you to make my daughter.

YouTube megastar and there's 150 large tip to make it happen or something they're not out yet.

We wouldn't be interested because it wouldn't be eventing basically.

I think kind of like you know that's another one of those golden exits about is overused this word massively in this industry, but it is all about letter states that he can take that you've got it made he had to step in and do you want someone who's you know done? Xx YouTube videos got a can of groin following and then you can see that it's already gonna be a success.

It's all right and you can Accelerate that angel monitise that is there an ideal can a sweet spot on the on the on the growth journey that you that I do for you to step in.

No there's no there's no template as to at what point you sign someone up and build a career for them.

It's more about again.

It's about the content that they're creating and it is not about the the the number next to their name.

We want to add value to a career when we take a Talent on and we won't take that Talent on if we don't think we can add value.

So it has to fit there's another number of other criteria, but sheer volume of followers is not one of them basically.

What do you think the biggest threats to this industry? Are I think that it's lack of education probably I think the challenge that we've all got is for the the buyers in the market place now that are fuelling their continued growth because at the end of the day everybody coming onto the platforms to be a creator wants to be a professional creative you're creating content at the level that some of these guys.

Are you have to dedicate your all of your time to it? It's a proper job as an opportunity cost straight away absolutely is yeah.

It is not many people that are.

How to create content and compete at the level of the standard that there is out there now and hold down a full-time job doing something that isn't associated at the same time so there isn't enough people need to pay their bills now.

I think the biggest threat to this interests you would be the the Industries that are working with this Talent to not educate themselves to a particular degree.

Whereby it can be sustained.

We can make right Talent selection we can make right selection when it comes to be creative and the platforms and the strategy behind the the creative and make really good work in the future, and I think that this whole kind of like is a little bit of a race to the bottom.


Let's try and get it as cheap as possible as much talent Flood the Market Place as possible and just make it as as common as possible and I think that the

Will a accelerator right at the bottom and the Dangerous that the whole industry becomes a little bit toxic because we haven't focused on what was really unique and amazing about it in the first place which was the talent that creativity in a relationship with the audiences.

I mean it is not a zero sum game but in another sense.

She will have the limited retire resources of your audience because I mean that they only my only have two 3 hours a day to watch your clientele and content but there's also a lot of competition from other influences on other companies books but also Netflix killing Eve BBC show casualty Spotify there's a lot of there's a lot of competition in terms of attention of people are starting to realise now that the financial value of their dwell time of their retention.

I know myself if something is free like Facebook then I'm the product is my demographics been sold on yeah, but you was agency.

Will become more discerning about how you spend that time and you'll only give your time over to the for podcasts that you really love on your morning commute to work or the 6 people that you follow on Instagram and they end up right the beginning of your selection algorithms.

So you only see them anyway, so we're back to quality of content and it's the only way that your talent is going to stay head and shoulders if they they genuine desire and demand for what they put their producing totally quality of content but also that the authenticity and their validity and all of those kind of other things and that's why it's important.

I think for the future for all of us to approach things on these platforms through a talent lens to a Talent first lens and that gives a unique perspective on putting authenticity and creativity at the forefront of everything that we do ask the questions then I've got a friend who's producing a kind of Middle ranking weekly Media podcast biturbo.

44 years old is definitely a friend and it's definitely not me, but let's see that this person which I admit now.

Is me if I wanted to become an influencer, but what would you? What would you if I said I don't work out exactly what it is that you are 100-percent passionate about and know something about or can create content.

That's just getting to it.

Stay without bursting into tears because it isn't that everyone upset you I think you're doing a good job of it.

Thanks very much as it is this unique perspective on media and the world at large from Media professionals, but why shouldn't you be on other platforms at adding a bit of colour as well to the great great work that you've done on your podcast that's very kind of susceptible to flattery so thank you very much beyond the joke.

There is a serious question that which is the people set out now to be influenced as I'm in a lot of these people are starting out.

Do they have they already have the end in mind that they want to be another Zoella they want to be there.

Kind of influence or or is it now still a happy accident like your your to make up artist friends what I think it is now a real option for someone that has something to say or have something to create because you can use these platforms to build an audience yourself.

You'd have to wait to get discovered by a production company or a producer or editor you can build the audience yourself and I love that fact.

I love the fact that it's democratising content distribution basically but again it's kind of the you know the people that really make a go of it will be the people that have a really good at it as something really you need to Sale have an expert opinion that is finite in terms of at where people can get hold of it and that's the way of the world and traditional media as well as online media before you entered this kind of industry when you're in working traditional Media you had a really strong reputation for being incredibly ambitious.

Where do you want to take gleam now what you know? What's your postal ambition for the business over the next decade? I want I want the business to grow and I think there's lots of exciting markets around the world that new Talent coming up to his performance but there but the infrastructure and the resource available in those markets isn't as sophisticated as it is here on the states are in central Europe etc.

So I'd like to explore the town in those other markets and also unlike the brand gleam futures to be a byword for authentic quality successful campaigns or I pay this bill last question then what advice would you give to someone listening to this is starting at Necker are the things wow? I find this guy what he's doing inspirational.

I will be the next Dom smales.

It was not long until my 30s.

I think that I realised that the only way to.

Be successful, if something is just sheer hard work as well like there's there's no you get a dick if you get helping of luck then brilliant, but the one constant that is required of anybody is a successful business and entrepreneurial I include all the Talent on the roster and they send anybody else's make success in this in this industry is really really hard work and also relationships.

I would advise anybody and do the talent Lara rostron, anybody anybody that works with me in futures all the time to put trust first and focus on relationships that work and build on them investing them.

You're a legend.

Thank you.

Thank you are right angles podcast in association with big things Media

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