Read this: 05/07/2019 Radio 4 Feedback

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts bearded state Monopoly the BBC has just published its annual report as presenters and executives earnings overall go up and audience figures overall go down.

How can the BBC justify taking away the free licence fee from most over 75's while I defend the BBC's move to charge those who are not on Pension Credit over 75 licence in its to find all these sorts of things the alternative would be not fun them and for the BBC Two weather in feedback, this week's informer BBC trusty and control of Radio 4 Mark damazer will examine whether radio listening figures particularly among the young are already withering and we hear from Nick Robinson on some brexit lessons that we should all learn I think there's always the BBC's job to put the light on.

But it's also the job of voters to pay attention.

We have the second part of our interview with her today and political thinking podcast presenter in which he describes how he tries to light up and lighting up the political landscape and in another world.

Where did the clothes come from there the second hand clothes come from abroad in Ghana we have a name for the second hand clothes.

They call it a brownie.

Where will which he translates as a white man is dead in or out of your comfort zone feature.

We have two listeners giving their opinions on the BBC world services V floor and they don't always agree.

I feel it's a bit simplistic disorder say that they were just would of light and sunny people I mean things to sort of them during those who who charted I wouldn't a very light and sunny on Tuesday the BBC published its annual reports and the next is Furious headlines made Grimm reading for the director-general the front pages of the sun the Daily Mail the Daily Express.

Daily Mirror and the Daily Telegraph focused on and we're highly critical of the levels of pay of the BBC's leading presenters this alleged over generous use of the licence fee was contrasted with the recent decision by The Corporation to withdraw free licences from most over 75's they're also headlines about falling listening and viewing figures particularly amongst the young will be examining some of the facts Behind Those headlines with Mark damazer the former controller of radio 4, but first this is what some of you had to say Derek blacklock.

I live in Orkney the BBC decided to take money from poor old people from next year.

It has just announced an increase of 11 million pounds for its Talent an increase of 7% the 156.8 million pounds.

It's increased its stuff by 1000 when my current licence expires and no longer pay for this outdated state, Monopoly

Douglas Johnston I will not be renewing my TV licence next year when it comes due to be paid to subsidise Gary Lineker's and others grossly inflated salaries at a time when most of the people are struggling on low wages that haven't gone up for years, but I'm not joined by a former controller of radio 4 and BBC trustee Mark damazer, who's now master of st.

Peter's Oxford there's been a pretty hostile pressure responsive on the tabloids at least to the BBC pay issues talking about cover-ups people paid live production companies salaries being so again song is this the usual well, I mean there are certain understandable elements where the BBC's competitors are very angry with the BBC when these figures come out.

I think it's a story of several things been possible at the same time for a lot of the readers of the papers that are complaining indeed others the figures themselves are very very large and if you were on.

Low wage you might be really shocked and upset that your licence fee is going to play so you can see that the same time it happens to be true.

They probably are not in each and every goes but in many the people being paid by the BBC the top rate presenters would be paid more if they worked for other broadcasting organisations and it's also true that in the last couple of years people have moved from the BBC presumably to higher paid jobs in other parts of the broadcasting market.

It is a very unforgiving political environment for the BBC particularly when it comes to free licences or not every licences for over 75's on Tuesday the prime minister's spokesman said referring to the annual report that the broadcaster either BBC needed to explain why staffing costs were increasing which they are overall despite the corporation saying could not afford to fund free TV licences for all over 75's and we seem both the contenders for conservative leadership and black to become Prime Minister of course both of them saying they.

Don't approve of the BBC's plans looks pretty difficult well.

It's not very surprising their saying that they're in the middle of the campaign and they probably genuinely believe it as well, but the fact is and I was there in 2015 when George Osborne launched his rather brilliantly constructed from his point of view ambush and the BBC was ill prepared for dealing with it, but one thing that was clear at the time and we all knew it was at the BBC was left with the task of beginning to think how it could make the case for the removal of the concession for all over 75 and 4 at least some of them to end up anger licence in order of the BBC could have the scale and ambition of a great public service broadcaster.

So it was left the BBC to try and work out what the best solution was I happen to supported I can see that it's painful and it painful would it has to come at this time where the top salaries have come out and it looks not great but I don't think that makes the decision wrong I think.

If you want in this country a public service broadcaster, it happened to me the BBC in this instance of scale and ambition doing things slightly differently and having a different conception of the audience and doing the range of things of the BBC does then it needs to be sufficiently well funded.

Some of these figures in radio are getting very worrying all day.

Let's look for example at 15 to 34 almost half of those they called young adults do not listen to BBC Radio at all.

I mean probably my now it is half don't listen to talk yet.

They will be required to pay the licence for this is getting very difficult isn't it? Will do things mean first of all the crisis and I think it's reasonable to say that it's some kind of a crisis in the full of radio reach for younger audiences has been around for a while to extremely give two controllers of Radio 1 Andy puffins and Ben Cooper have been grappling with it and that they have diversified the way they get there or tints by putting in Youtube channels and various other forms of digital Broadcasting

Hotels to try and sustain overall listening, but it's very difficult the market is extremely can go to do all of that is true, but you have to remember that that 50% may be consuming many other BBC services open Cut the Rope for the road Deepdene broadcasting house and it actually because they say a lot of young people now not been brought up with the BBC listening have they were subsequently when they get older my great as it work to BBC Radio 4 will that is indeed the risk and the concern and this is a long long game linear channels including Radio 1 and 1 Extra again to decline, but they're going to be kind pretty slowly and one way that you can make them to climb faster is by squeezing the resources out of them in the interest of any number of different causes that you may want to champion against the BBC's Public Service Broadcasting role for younger audiences.

I know that the BBC takes the challenge extremely seriously I know that the figures are not what the BBC might like.

But I don't think that it's entirely the right time to say the game is over it up these people will never migrate to other BBC channels and services.

They not consuming other things and therefore the BBC has lost in Charlie the battle with younger audiences.

I think it's a tremendous struggle, but it is not lost but if you would control the Radio 4 today you would be seeing that your reach should gone down from 20.6% to 19.3% you would have seen the time listening to Radio 4 gone down from 11 hours and 2 minutes to 10 hours and 59 minutes.

Well.

I could live without that.

You could have got I mean I should remember with that.

I think appropriate genuflection towards my time, but when I left in 2010 the radio for job those figures would probably in the large lower than they are now in other words.

They continue to rise no reasons to do with an ageing population and so on but it 11 million people listening for round about 11 hours a week each plus, what they consume on BBC sounds and podcast.

Singing all the rest of it is a thoroughly thoroughly respectable performance spending on Radio 4 has gone up from 91 million to 96 million which was surprised lots of a super scene budgets cut all over the place at but what we can't find out is where the money it is being spent and how much of it On podcast.

Can you help us know and that's because I think you understand the way the figures are produced every year there were probably movements within those figures that are technically need to be looked at and you could probably derive an answer, but further work so the larger frame is the one to look at which is how to balance with an overall in real terms declining slice of the pie is where the BBC has been there for several years how you manage to finance both appropriate investment in new technology and ways of getting to the audience and it's cold out in shorthand, BBC sounds all iPlayer and the great linear channels particularly radio channel.

Switch the audiences love not just Radio 4 on associate with and how do you balance the spend between them aside as a genuine dilemma and BBC sounds conceptually at least must be the right thing for the BBC to have done.

You couldn't have the whole music podcast audio world branded under iPlayer it was going to get lost though.

So putting it all together with one master brand is right.

It's going to cost money.

It's one of the reasons.

There are that's why I defend the BBC's move to charge those who are not on Pension Credit over 75 for licensing is to find all these sorts of things the alternative would be not refund for the BBC to whether my thanks to Mark damazer former controller of radio 4 and BBC trustee now master of st.

Peter's College Oxford as you would expect we did invite an existing BBC senior executives to discuss the annual report but none was made available now, let's escape the shorts and head for a warmer climate for our new feedback listening feature.

Which week are asking to BBC Radio listeners to step out of their comfort zones and listen to a program that they wouldn't normally switch on this week's Sharon Kelso from Portsmouth and Shirley belly from Preston I going to review an episode of the BBC World Service is the 5th floor which was broadcast on Friday the 21st of June just after 12 and was repeated at 18 the program Showcases global stories from the 5th floor home to the BBC's 41 language services to get an idea of their regular listing happy.

We are Sharon and Shirley for the titles of the top 3 programs.

They would have to take with them if they were stranded on a desert island, Shirley first.

I think it had to be the Today programme in the morning and maybe p.m.

At 5 p.m.

In the late afternoon and oversee the weekend it would have to be the Archers

Don't be pairing dinner and Gardeners Question Time especially on a desert island and become a few tips for that and any of the dramas, are they have on the Year afternoons and these Sundays Shirley did you enjoy it? I thought it was absolutely wonderful.

I really loved it.

I thought when we were first introduced of the journalist on the 5th or from all the different substations are all represented in different countries eat was always like being taken on a tour of a building when you're the new member of staff meeting all the staff and then when they chose their news stories.

I loved all those stories and how to describe the program and explain what it's all about the festival we were introduced to the journalist son and then they chose the news stories and when I was absolutely struck by the new story about the twins that were separated at birth and they found each other via Facebook when they were 19 but more than that I was touched by the journalist who who is also a twin and she couldn't imagine living without her sister and and that it touched her.

I I thought touch me.

And it's open to do on to the lives of the journalist as well as the people that had to be in their chosen news story about you meeting her for lunch today because yeah, I'm meeting up for lunch today because yesterday was a bad day you dressed in when we went out into Nairobi to the toy market.

It was a second hand market and because no row beings can't afford to buy new things and whilst there they join this pointed out that there was a T-shirt there with defence forces of Ireland on it.

You know the story there is is just intriguing you know a lot of the items came from abroad and they laughed together when they said we recall that white man's debt.

I think it was stories that never story did tickle my stomach at least I think a hotel restaurant in digiguide at the regional capital of Ethiopia Somali speaking regions course and that only allows you in if you own one.

The camels into a fall through now, how serious this comes from BBC Nairobi and I just love the attitudes of people they all kind of happy telling is how their names were brought about because somebody was born in the rain but the thing that really got me with the Parliament have stopped women you wearing hair extension to false eyelashes, they actually brought in something to prevent them doing it now.

There's a movement to have them get back to the normal in the 21st Century but they were quite light-hearted about it all and that's what got me.

I personally am 25 years old right now and when I guess I will come and I'm thinking that still old school to be thinking that a Woman Standing beauty is dictated eyelashes always on her head so few and of course many of the women who reacted right show me do it wasn't simply about a tax on imports was everyone simply frataxin commodities you see the sun attack.

They would like women to be naturalist everybody was happy to talk about these subjects but with a smile on my face and smile came across your own lots of things so that you haven't heard of him because normally about this is an exaggeration but quite often we only hear things from Africa if you know there are droughts if that's family and if that's where it's usually bad news and of course at same time with learning the dirty growth rate for Africa as a whole is is zooming up ahead of hours and so did you really get a picture a different picture of society from this program? I got pictures of happy people even when they wanted to protest about this movement in the parliament.

They was she was laughing about it.

So some programs that are made in the Cardiff area to pessimistic.

Did you get a sense this was really too optimistic try and as it were to sell their country to the world.

I just thought region of the world where people don't know.

What better way than to be upbeat about it and it made me want to find out more that these people were happy to talk about problem issues and as I save the one in the 21st Century where they've got women being told what they can and can't do they protesting in a lightweight about it.

Really is a bit simplistic disorder say that they they were just would have lightened and sunny people.

I mean is just one of them journalist who who charted I wouldn't a very light and sunny room that you will listen to this pregnant again and would you want to encourage live BBC producers to listen then perhaps change the way they report Africa I think that would be a really good idea because most of the time we can see that they are living a life better.

in some respects and we are because they

the making the best of what they have where's we complain about what we haven't got sure I do think producers or to listener.

You will again yourself a shake it definitely will I thought it was absolutely great my thanks to listen to Shirley Bailey and Sharon council and if you would like to take part in that feature or become part of our feedback, Please do get in touch you can send an email to feedback bbc.co.uk or write a letter the address is feedback PO Box 67234 London se1p 4ax.

You can follow our activity on Twitter by using at BBC R4 feedback or you can call her some leave a phone message on 0333 444 0544 standard landline charges apply, but it could cost more on some mobile networks and all those details are on our website now for voice you usually hear in the early morning.

They're not being implemented.

Back to the matter now, is that the withdrawal agreement is dead naked has been rejected by parliament and the only Focus for the Boris Johnson that the only Focus for Boris Johnson is to be the candidate of change that takes us out of the European Union Come What May that we are leaving the EU our latest by 31st.

This is not about an implementation.

It's that ship has sailed and gone we are now focused on leaving the EU but was Nick Robinson on the Today programme interviewing Priti Patel the Conservative MP and former minister recently in order to with Nick last week.

We discuss the virtues of the longer political interview such as that which can be found in his political thinking podcast in contrast to the shorter more combative confrontations often heard on programs like today this week.

We discuss something I put to Jonathan Munro had a BBC newsgathering a couple of weeks ago has BBC political news coverage being sufficiently challenging.

When inaccurate or questionable factual assertions are made by interviewees you've just played a clip in which I was challenging again and again and in a sense it represented the tension some people are shouting at the radio saying that's nonsense.

Why don't you point out? It's nonsense other people as they will you shut up stop interrupting and let us hear they're argument and that is the tightrope that we walk and it seems to me.

Yes, we should if there's an untruth pointed out but sometimes what people say is don't read isn't it a contentious argument well.

Let me use the example the classic example the figures on the bus when I put that Jonathan Andrew he said well.

It was contentious and when a private prosecution against Boris Johnson was turned down.

It was said by the BBC news on that time that the figures were contentious now.

There are some people who say they're not contentious.

They're wrong the figure on the bus was a gross figure the actual figure.

Money paid by this country to Europe with much less sheer sleeve it is contentious or you should say no because it's so central I have to spell this out in detail.

I did spell it out and diesel on the BBC and you think it should always be better for the referendum on telly.

I got a pen and I put a big cross through it say it was not true but subsequently when that's reported should just news journalists contentious cos it's awkward again it comes back to a number of terms which are used that maybe the politicians understand, but the audience doesn't 3 example sovereignty what we talking about women sovereignty shared power of exclusive part if we do have it there a range of things that are often the audience doesn't understand and it's used as shorthand.

I agree Roger we've got to find a way of explaining terms of challenging things that a contentious or indeed on true.

He is the problem we're in a permanent campaign.

Normally during my lifetime a campaign last a few weeks.

Maybe a few months and then it's over what has happened with brexit.

Is that effectively with permanent campaign than one part of the population of campaigning to get the referendum enforced another part are campaigning to get it overturned everyday every statement by many of the people interview is not what they really think it's what they want us to hear it is part of their campaign and that means the things we get used to in an election spread and frankly boring irritate not only not only boring bit confused on let's take this question of a technological solution to the Irish border between North and South one.

Size keeps saying it's not a problem technology will solve it the other side says what it might in a decade or so, but the technology is not there now.

What are you do on the Today programme when either of those sides make that suggestion what we tend to do?

Is to put to them what others are saying that taking example about?

What in interviews we could do is say to someone like Priti Patel who says you know where The Negotiator free trade agreement during implementation.

Hold on he is a list and I gave that that list all people very senior beaver on the governor of the Bank of England to the person who runs the world trade organisation this is wrong.

There is no StarTech can't really don't want to send reporters at Ross Hawkins for today does a good job and we do send him off at say go and explain it better cube into BBC long time by deputy editor journalist as well as political editor and you know that when the BBC comes under pressure at various times.

There are people within government and within the corporation who think the main thing get through this don't take size on anything will of course you shouldn't be partial but you should take the side on the truth shouldn't you you absolutely should take the side of the truth, but don't always.

The truth is what you believe it to be so certain things on plane true or untrue the difficulty with brexit is this often the debate is about a projection if we leave will this all that happened has not truth even if my job doesn't of economists think it it's still isn't true.

It's what most people finger well-informed secondly, it's open the guests about how a negotiation will work if I take this tough approach Boris Johnson then the EU will blink you can't say it right.

We got the wrong.

It might have none of us know until it happens and therefore it is a bit harder.

It's a lot of Roger to say that's true and that's not them people sometimes think but I'll give you one but we should increase the price politicians pay when they repeat something they pretty much.

No, it's not true but

I don't want to have an effect with the public the reason I interrupted Priti Patel repeatedly is because I wanted her to pay a price for saying something that she must have known was at best misleading cafe one final question to your witches of a prom other limitations of broadcasting in some ways out of specifically about at the referendum the question the way was whether or not the country light or did not like the European Union what it did not do was to go to the second stage which say what you don't have European Union what is that you do want for this country in the future and you think the BBC did enough to examine the alternatives because those in favour of brexit often have very different views about the country should be post brexit.

No doubt that the country should have had a conversation with itself about what the future should look like way before negotiators headed the Brussels to argue with.

I'm working on an hour long TV programme that examines exactly what went wrong which goes out next month and the BBC undoubtedly could and should have done more of that but he's the point quite often I can point you to things we have done and nobody paid attention you don't think it's a question of leaping into the dark and it was being the BBC's job, but the light on.

I think there's always the BBC's job to put the light on but it's also the job of voters to pay attention at those times.

I give me an example.

I need a big interview with David Cameron just days before the 2015 referendum as it happened.

I've been off ill.

Everyone told me what I should ask him and I said im only going to ask him one question and I did and I'll stick 5 times what prime minister is Plan B if you don't get a better deal from the EU and if you lose the referendum your promising to hold I saw.

That question would stand the test of time it went out very prominently nobody paid the slightest bit of attention because they thought either would have the referendum or if he did he was bound to win so sometimes we do broadcast things and later people say if only you done this and I'm ever so what we did actually and did he say this is plan de haven't got a plan B thanks to Nick Robinson presenter of today and political thinking and that's nearly it for a week in which England lost a woman's World Cup semi-final but don't despair another World Cup semi-final is coming up.

Yes Englishman beat New Zealand on Wednesday and I'm now in the Cricket World Cup semi-finals next week.

We plan to speak to someone from the test Match Special theme so do let us know your thoughts and questions for them or cricket commentators to parties that do you really want to hear about.

Coolest barbecues in case I miss some of the greats and less well-paid cricket commentators of the past like Brian Johnson was always prone to a fit of giggling when faced with an unfortunate innuendo remember this fortuna part of its.

I must have just remove the best things like over the weekend, so I never managed to bowl a maiden over time to remove the bullseye bales handful of the stumps goodbye.