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Read this: Media Masters - Heather Dietrick

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Media Masters - Heather Dietrick…



Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game today.

I'm here in New York and John by header Dietrich chief executive of the Daily Beast and media career began as a first amendment like initially in academia, then it publishes first before joining got his legal team when they were being sued by Hulk Hogan following its bankruptcy.

She became president of the organisation until it's still to univision in 2016 when the men website was closed down.

She joined the Daily Beast as chief executive in 2017 Heather thank you for joining me.

Thank you for having me so I had a million read is a day.

I mean there's clearly a digital market very Reverend intelligent news news breaking news with the voice singer of our writers have an opinion about something they were on their sleeve and we try to bring that voice into everything we do from the look of the site.

So you can tell when you come in all the way through the journalism through our in, Aubrey

Newspapers in our opinion pieces, how do you summarise the Daily Beast and if you met someone at a cocktail party who wasn't speaking Media literate and wasn't off and then you said that you know what you're always how you describe the website to someone the best endeavours to tell you what's most important.

So that you are an intelligent person into came to go about your day in understanding the news and also understanding what our writers with our experts think about what's going on so that it can shape your thoughts in your opinions about the world.

I mean choosing down trump scoops.

Is is putting the Beast in Direct competition with established brands like the New York Times and had to know where actually one of the few digital outlets that tries to break news that still a and you know it the big players in York Times the Washington Post I have have really done a brilliant job at that and then a lot of the smaller players have morphed to be in a more bloggers.

Essentially giving their takes on the days news or or reblogging it and we.

Endeavour to do a lot more we actually well in a walk away from a story or just do something very short on it and last week and advanced it and and bring it down the road so unlike a lot of news rooms were telling her journalist.

Hey we want you to get out from behind your computer.

You should be spending a lot of your time from from out behind your computers and talking to sources developing sources developing the story and trying to break something and what's advances narrative down the road what a typical day for you.

What's a typical week? What does the chief executive of the Beast do or doing a bit of everything that goes into running a media Business by in this very tumultuous age and media where there's a lot of consolidation is a lot of change in the market are a lot of the Focuses on building new and diverse revenue streams so traditionally we've been an advertising supported business, but it's no secret in the last few years.

They do Apple ear.

Google and Facebook have been taken that the Lions share of advertising dollars that still a very big focus of our business, but we are also focused on building consumer revenue lines and princess wanted probably our biggest endeavour in that which is beast inside our membership program for our readers and we are just about coming up on the first anniversary of beast inside the be at the end of June it's been a really exciting year and we have a product that has a lot of legs to attend is a is a real viable and sustainable lot of revenue going forward tell us about beast inside then, how do I join in what I get for my money you can join the site and you're getting is special additional content exclusive content you're getting a newsletters that you can't get anywhere else.

You're getting breaking news analysis.

Are you kidding early access to some far along juicy weekend, so it's it's really a bunch of extras and it is.

What we do every day and have you found that this quite a desire to support journalism Amy night-night subscribe to more websites and apps as never before because particularly the days of fake news and Donald Trump uni journalism coming under attack figuratively and literally I want journalism to prosper Assault on the media.

Which is a part of it and part of it is people realising that the Fourth Estate is more important now than ever to hold their their politicians their leaders and the people they buy their products from to account but I think there's also a powder and where the big streaming platform started to teach people that content is no longer free and and that you actually have to pay if you want really good content and so that was sort of it the at the very top of of this of the Summer Wine and then I think the the big players in news near times and Washington Post leaned in to their.

I don't really have to Aberdare subscription offerings and then that really opened the door for a smaller to Jill players like the bee's to lean into what we have which is a very large highly engaged audience that very obsessed with the biggest so we have a vermilion people coming from more than 50 page views a month because they very much want to see not just the news but the Beast take on the news and that allows organisation like us to start thinking about offering them something more and seeing a karate and suede were dinner not just come and be eyeballs on impressions on her ads but also other night and really start participating in our journalism and then that since you are different from all of the other mediabrands both traditional and digital first that are trying to find new ways of monetizing a content as you say than merely relying on the Old advertising revenue that everyone will win.

Do you really need to have an audience that is that is highly engaged and you also need to have a system for moving people people down the final so for us.

You know that the old game was grab every eyeball you possibly can like in 2014 the heyday of the Facebook spaghet being turned on that the traffic spaghetti.

Sorry about that.

It's Max Fulham you say companies like Verizon BuzzFeed really orienting themselves around that to grab every single new reader new viewer that they possibly could now we are we also the potential effects of that on the businesses that went Facebook changes its algorithm and shift its business strategy than that really can can precipitated a decline in in the media companies strategies for those who spend time building a karate and say and really building a relationship with the ideas.

They have this opportunity now to to monetize that are the Ensign in a different way and and the Beast didn't get the Big Valley

Station Inn in the time of flight mass traffic and in scale they 2014/2015 but we were very steady and strategic in in building the relationship with the audience and now have a real opportunity in this membership subscription space.

Do you see yourself as having any competition does that mean I'm from London England and unite in the old days the sun would compete with the Daily Mirror in the Telegraph would compete with the times at nowadays.

You know with digital first propositions you competition and festivals in abundance mentality can look at lots of different sides, but also as you can competition Netflix and CNN other apps on iPhone business Ed 1000 that down and so are we really think about other newsbrands mediabrands is competition for time and then we of course have competition for stories.

What against the New York Times for Political scoops in our our White House reporters and congressional reporters are are fighting for their scoops? Just as as the big guys are and and that is what really drives are ideas ideas comes back to us so many times because they know that they are going to find something that were going to find a way to advance that story and so there's really to two types of competition Mark I don't think in the subscription space, but it's a zero-sum game.

I I think it's been proven out their audiences are are interested in and willing to pay for multiple types of subscription you see that endless streaming platforms and I think you'll also see that in in news.

What's the top of you to do list at the moment.

I'm in top of my to-do list is there in 1 cc's collect the dry cleaning but I didn't mean in terms of like literally I mean in terms of unit 1 of the next big things that you've got coming up on that side damn we are continue.

How to build new types of content worked in to find ways to engage with their audience we hope to create more of a two-way conversation with the audience so they feel like they really part of what what were building in the Beast in this is more than just you know shelling out money wants a month for subscription if this is a real membership experience and they feel part of a beast inside and then we're also very focused on building e, so we launched last year at the sprint scouted.

It's actually scattered by The Beastie and we have this really great writers who are scouting out cool products products that are great value product that align with what are audiences is looking for a and delivers that to them and essentially as an editorial vertical handsome.

Just things that they might be interested in Kuwait products for them to have a traditional reader in mind is it? What are the demographics showing times of who is leading the Beast very diverse are the common thread that runs through them as 8th.

Are highly intelligent well-educated? They are generally news Junkies to sell when they come to us we expect that they have they read the news another they know there's the top stories of the day we are delivering the top stories of the day and a product called the cheat sheet which is some of the top 10 must-know right now read it.

Thank you only like the top stories of the most interesting that were not going to expand in a further an int into an article as though we expect the Bermuda checked out our cheeks you to read the news, Elsewhere and and they're really news Junkies and then they're usually fairly affluent they have their spending power and it's important that you the specificity that you know exactly who your reader's are because you're now starting to sell them things so you need to know what they're interest Aaron's on.

How do you how do you can ascertain what that is?

That that meant both being very Jack data-driven and then also talking to them we surveyed them.

We got this phenomenal response as it was great to see people are willing you know before we've been launched to be part of their centre.

Let us know who they are what they are interested in what type of content that they might read and then there are things we find out in the data that they not only won't tell you but there permanently tell you the opposite for instance when we we ask people the ranking out dozens of story types about that.

They might be interested in across-the-board invariably content about the royal family would be like at the very bottom and as it turns out the Guardian some cohort of the audiences like really interested in it so much so that we ended up building some special membership products around did we have a newsletter called The royalist and it's a great membership product that converts really well, and so when you're doing those kind of deepdyve.

He was a great lesson that you can't.

Rely on could have one angle.

You can't just ask people you can't just have your nose than the data.

You need to really come out it from several different angles and extract what people might like and then it's just a constantly evolving process of dinner every time we publish a story we get we get data back about you know how the audience reacted to a long day spent with it.

What did they do next year and what did that make them what to read next and that informed things that we produced especially for membership to some recent controversy over whether they should have revealed the identity of the anonymous troop supporter that that it is adopted Nancy Pelosi video.

What would you take on that are living in a world where at times for some people are so many people.

It's really hard to tell the difference between a real piece of content affect piece of contents alternator fixed of his getting so realistic now.

You can't tell exactly and I frankly think it's going to be the responsibility of news organizations to hold the hand of the reader through.

Best morass and sort through not only what does faking what is real but what were the motivations of the people producing this fit-content? Why were they doing it who they are can be incredibly important to their motivations that is it as it was in this case you know it's not just someone in their closet was no connections anyone.

It's not who we might think which is a group in Russia trying to install and something on American politics.

You know it's it's someone who has been practiced at this in his doing it for a reason and the identity of that person is important to that investigation.

Do you think journalism is under attack as never before certainly by our president is never before in in that has precipitated in a certain groups of people to attack the media on the other hand I think they're support for journalism like never before I think there's there's a realisation that much of what we know about our politicians the people who produce our products the people who are influential in our lives are celebrities much of what we know.

But actually real about the revelatory comes from journalists.

Otherwise were just being fed with those people want us to know and without that.

It's hard to it's hard to figure out who to vote for what to buy what to feed your kids your journal is really inform so much of that and I I think with so many revelations the journals have been able to make coming out of the Whitehouse centre trump world and down people are realising more and more that journalists are very important for that reason it still got ages until that journalism is what someone doesn't want you to know when everything else.

He just public relations subject of your stools are very upset to reveal something on unknown.

That is meaningful.

That is as we would say newsworthy to to your readership and that means it's a few people are going to be upset along the way.

But overall there is a greater mission in a greater good for getting that information out.

I want everyone to be held to the absolute highest possible standard with the important exception of me, but it comes to change one rule has to apply to everyone when I was researching you know your management style in your career at 4 This podcast are read that you and I quote a direct nobullshit managerial style with you from Golcar to recognise that description she had that that was my personal style and also I I came from this organisation from gawker Media that had this really passionate employee base that essentially practice what they called are we called radical transparency and so that meant as a leader as an executive you really never could but it your way through anything you can smell it any.

I can't exactly I know when jumping into the newsrooms Credit in the organization's credit and it was a really good lesson as a leader you know when you were thinking you ok, you're going to work out there to you and all hands of the dramatic moment and sort of unveil the plans are explain what's going on if it if it doesn't pass the smell test or if you can't if you can't look everyone in a straight face and sort of answer the toughest questions, then you might as well not even got there because you're going to be you going to be totally crashed in politics there because like mind up with my personality anyhow and so is that that's a natural way for me to am coming to the biggest know you begin your career as a first amendment lawyer.

Did you imagine when you started out your career that you would end up chief executive of a digital journalism Enterprise when I want to lascal.

I also got an MBA and I thought I wanted to know the basics some point.

I wanted to transition into the business side.

No idea how or when but I figured I'm here.

Yeah, I might as well and in so I had that in my back pocket.

So it wasn't it wasn't totally of the blue that I moved over to the business side though the way it happened was very very serendipitous.

Will I was going to say could you walk us through your career prefisso? What came first after you finish your studies to become a first-time buyer.

I didn't know what the time.

It's a little bit iffy old is there on a lot of us out there and it also like highly desirable for law students coming in because it's it's very well known.

It's sexy feel like I have a mission behind it but then very very few people are able to practice it so I went to a law firm where I was going to work for a very prominent Force limit Scotland in partner.

He was working on the Salomon amendment case which was where I lost call a group of Law schools were or challenging the salamander moment which word adonai federal funding for the entire University if a certain part.

I did not do it.

Is there anything and in this case that particular thing was it some more schools in this group wanted to protest don't ask don't tell by having job recruiters recruiting the slightly different area than the rest of their legal recruiters who came to help find lost his job and so the military found as unacceptable and this case when on another way up to the Supreme Court say my very first kiss out of Law School in my real world job was to work with this partner on this case we unfortunately lost it 820 will learn incredible privilege to argue with the supreme court and I don't argue.

I was just a baby out of Law school, but it's been incredible privilege.

I sent it to zero because I believe Justice O'Connor head retired either after argument of argument started in and hadn't been replaced but I I really wanted the First Amendment law to defend journalist.

That's what I was very very much interested in but when I was in college.

I thought I might become a journalist and then I

Decided I won't be a first amendment lawyer and sell from the law firm world I collect and then I went to Hurst and they have a very targeted very specialised first amendment team unlike most companies of that size.

They don't use outside counsel for the litigation.

They're essentially running a small litigation team of first memory experts inside and it's like the greatest training in the area in a space that you can really get we've had a number of executives from Hurst actually on the podcast and it only seems like like an incredible organisation with the great cultural Council is an aerial believer in free speech and getting stories out and it's a it's great leadership to have that you're not just coming from a purely defensive posture that you really care about the journalism first.

What came after first after her while I was there.

I had met the CTO of got her sort of all on the Seiko founder and said.

I would want to work there someday and eventually he tapped me on the shoulder and said he we have this opening and I'll get your resume on the pile in so I ended up going over for an interview and the founder CEO and I had a great chat and at the end.

He said this was a very important role.

That was really their first real lawyer Abbey castle building had a legal team but he wanted me to do a trial week before you could really make the offer because it's ok for a delicate Newsroom and it's a very important role, and so I left thinking me and I really really want this job, but that's impossible.

You know I have a job.

I can't pretend like I'm on vacation for a week.

There's no way I'm going to ask my boss if I can take a week off.

I'm sorry that I am I'm just going to have to let herself but then I slept on it in the next morning.

I just knew I have to I have to take a chance and ask my current boss so I was just utterly terrified here and when in the next day and said.

Can I go work somewhere else for a week and if it doesn't work out can I also come back and he was so so incredibly gracious Syria and litigation department at her and said you know there's no better place to really cut your teeth as a first amendment more than on The Newsroom floor of a place like that girl.

That's really at times.

You know kind of taking on the on the edge of taking risks and inpublishing that was incredibly generous is really amazing.

I do my week and it worked out and I got the job, and became general counsel and was tasked with building at the legal team and from there the job very quickly got much bigger than that unwinding allowed chewing gum and baling wire that had that had been holding the place together like many startups in advert very typical of startups that you're moving very very fast and processes are totally employees.

So I really started getting involved in almost every department and eventually became president of the company to run it along with its founder CEO and there and then we come to the famous Hulk Hogan lawsuit.

Yes that lasted her was filed already when I got to the company and was there a few months along there was a very robust to docket of litigation when I had arrived to the company because you didn't know this point who was behind its ultimately behind some of that.

I didn't know it was and it was an incredibly unusual because the company was taking a lot of things but it was really a lot and perhaps.

I should have that is there someone behind much of the Earth's let you know that captain hindsight 20/20 almost 82 admitted with the one thing I remember about that is the the gentleman whose wife Hulk Hogan was sleeping with was called Bubba the love sponge was intently.

That in itself is insane of course very literally every time you turn the page.

I just pulled back another layer of this onion the story got a stranger and stranger not only with the last year about this litigation Assault on the company and the fact that there's someone behind it.

You know when they Greaves subject of a story and his earlier.

Yes like a decade earlier than plodding plodding this plot in do you know finally found a pot of a bad mum listen to it? Really was a bit ultimate Lee we go through the litigation against the company and in order to keep it Afloat needed to clean the assets of through bankruptcy and sell what were with Alfie litigation a very great group of acids and so we did that in in very short order we raised money which was interesting because the company had foretold that stands really shout it from the mountain tops.

They will always be independent.

They didn't have outside funding.

Didn't have a parent company in on a VC funding it was profitable which was raring indigo media and you know they took the prophets in and put it back in the company in order to grow it and so in short order in the with that backdrop in this litigation.

We we raised money which was which is pretty amazing.

I went through this very difficult trial and then sold the acids in am really an option essentially a public option which is how bankruptcy works.

I ended up selling M22 univision it must have been incredibly emotional and challenging time really.

What did you get that? They can of tuna you mention the smell test? When did you start to think maybe there is some conspiracy behind all of this nonsense of litigation were not lining up as they as they usually do you know where a plaintiff usually wants to get paid Hulk Hogan's seems like the ultimate plaintiff who who wants to get paid things.

We just not aligning it one point the plane.

Just made a move to essentially collapse.

Insurance policy for essays and that's highly unusual usually appointed as happy happy that you have insurance because that's usually how they're going to find money if they are awarded a judgement in so they were just little signals along the way that like something is in is it right here but it became more clear after trial and then it was revealed that someone is actually behind behind the litigation.

So what came next so high when you said what was an emotional time? I really don't have time to be emotionally around-the-clock.

I was reading this litigation the capital for sale with our CEO and so we sold the assets to university and I stay too long for another six months end and try to integrate the company.

Is it and then I knew it was time for me to move on and find the next thing and I landed at the Daily Beast where I am now.

What was she breathed coming into the Beast then so I was looking for a place that had a real and very engaged audience and it was.

Really making an impact in the world with their journalism and that that felt like going to be easy to find actually it's not it's not that easy to find because the job it got there was fairly high profile has been called for a lot of different things but it was around the time where the sheen was coming off of a lot of these really high traffic numbers and inner for the companies.

They got the big evaluation and I I had a sense.

So you can't really see you down the road that in order to to kind of rebuild the business around journalism you had a start with a very real asset and that Man 3 audience had to be real people coming in because they are highly engaged with the contents not because you sort of tricked them.

You know being mesmerized watching she's Stratocaster across the screen which has its own American dinner.

Not not to diminish that but I decided to come to the beers because it really is trying to make an impact in the audience is really understanding now and there's a lot of brand affinity I mean the beast has always been.

Cenozoic and of Liberal left-leaning brand at neutrality is over in the way that people consume news and opinion that's funny.

You say that about the biggest because I wasn't there in the Obama era, but I understood and I know from editor-in-chief that critics would sometimes they are the beast of a neocon site and you're now either here or left-leaning and that all makes me feel good though.

Essentially The Newsroom is doing it's job which is holding whatever powers in office to account so yes, I'd say there are certain issues of the organisation.

Is is more liberal about you know gun control is probably one of those out a few others but overall I think the the era of trying to be completely neutral in news is it's probably really waning maybe the the BBC is the best example of an organisation still endeavoring to be very very neutral.

I don't know that we should warn that really.

I I think there is a real utility 4AU

Serve you our reader to understand.

You know the environment that there an like were the opinions are coming from if there's a bias you know have a voice say that if you have a voice and one of time to be neutral in a neutral you should certainly be unbiased in in your reporting, but I don't know that any human can be totally unbiased and so if you have an inclination towards something that have a voice on without come out on the story to there are very few news organisations now.

They're actually have the Ethos that the beast has about constantly breaking news stories that must be something you quite proud of ya of the impact.

We have other stories and it's not surprising that that's fairly rare it.

It's hard to do.

You need to really investing in your people and you need to give them room to breathe.

So you can't be saying you know everyday prettiest 66 blog and just pump them out too because they really need time to go out into the world and sort of figure out what's going on with the story to your call sources, you'll hit.

Dead ends, you'll get some Leeds colleges in in develop the narrative and and it takes time and it means you're getting volume wise less out of every individual but impact while you're getting so much more so you're really playing a long game you need to believe that your audience will understand that impact and and it will make a difference to them in that series in the dark comeback compared to just sort of giving them an onslaught of of contact with things also read about your management style is that one of your business strategies is to grab time every day when we can we wouldn't normally me to brainstorm with them.

How did that happen and how do you make it work it out? I think it helps close the gap between people in one of the organisation and management level and it helps the organisation get aligned on priorities and it helps.

Understand where pain points are they like? I would have never thought of or had no exposure to know because there might be several several levels away and so sitting in my seat.

I have the ability to remove ROBLOX racquetball.

You know I think of my job in one measure as really developing Talent giving them the freedom to grow a and breathe and have their ideas.

Play out and removing the roadworks in in their way and you know you're not able to do that if you don't know like the small stuff that's going on in so I just find like having coffee or lunch with someone at any level of the organisation I tried to do it like once a week can be really helpful for managing the business like at the other end.

What are the best aspects of the job and what are the most challenging parts? Do you personally I think because I have personally been interested in the news and involved in helping to get stories out the best aspectos when we do a really important story that made a difference in the world is your typical beast reader Innocence song.

I haven't you also be a behind the curtain as well.

I am in general and I read almost everything we publish everyday which isn't saying I married on the internet before doing that is very impressive by the biggest challenge is is setting strategy in this climate.

That is ever changing around us in our you have the power of the platforms is very much present in our lives every day even though we don't we don't try to rely overly so one and only a single platform.

They still incredibly powerful and your they can make decisions and and change your business strategy or or change its outcome.

Very quickly really would a blink of an eye and so you need to build notes around those things and also I think about innovating and in how to innovate in a one-way work innovating is via VR membership program, and what do you think you'll take that membership program and do you have I mean you don't have to shed exact numbers, but do you have like objectives into?

They are they revenue on our numbers of member centric at how are you? How are you wanted anything terrestrial fallen place later and so developing that program and our sophistication and understanding in an artist who the general audiences, but who are the various cohorts are we know we have people that are just utterly rabbit about politics in about the Beast take on politics and so enough for them right now.

We produced this breaking news analysis product cut rabbit hole where we are in a not.

Just can't talking about the big story of the day, but we are breaking it down.

We are making all of the connections are connecting all the dots for the purple characters again for people who are news Junkies and then they understand what the story of the day is but this is the much deeper product on it and then we have cold to come in for entertainment coverage and so we build products for them.

We have.

Newsletter at Exeter membership product, but it's the way we drive people down the funnel, as soon as one of our very popular entertainment writer of Kevin Fallon is essentially obsessed with that that week in the entertainment World and so and I to go on and on breaking down the cohorts, but the future for us is really about understanding who the audiences in in a very narrow specific way and then producing more of what they like that feels bees.

Do they feel is right to us.

Are you in One Sense like like a GoPro stereotypical the manager of a football team where you constant got an outfit the emerging Talent in lots of different geographies of the sexes.

Do you read something in the New Yorker or New York magazine away thing actually that right is amazing.

I've try and push them always looking for new Talent and my other and she was really the one out there looking for for new writers, but I I am very frequently reading something that I love interest in keeping my eye on someone and

Any any difference for any other business except that in journalism someone's work is just like write out their profile your interacting with their work very very naturally and sell and keeping our pipeline of Talent as is always really smart but we also investing are people so we don't expect to have a lot of turnover be hard to retain the best Talent we don't want especially because we're focused on on breaking news and advancing stories.

We know that takes time and we know it takes time for that muscle to really develop anthropology very skilled added and so were not just having people you know coming right a few blogs.

We've got somewhere else.

We we really hope that they build an audience for themselves end of the ways the Den in a has effects for the audience of the beast in the Beast voice, so I meet you started as a media lawyer first amendment lawyers as you would call them here have to remember that I'm British you say I have two.

Switch languages such as I can get it wrong, but what advice would you give someone that starting out now on their journey? They ultimately does does want to be the chief executive of a media operation such as the Beast my biggest piece of advice is be willing to take risks and put yourself in a position.

Where were you able to take risks because if you are if you're thinking about being a chief executive of you now down your career.

It's very difficult to plot that out exactly again or there will be a lot of twists and Turns and a lot of a lot of serendipity and so I think I have your eyes open and when an opportunity presents itself be willing to take a risk on it and you know I left what is essentially like a law firm world track which is very safe in traditional track for a lawyer most law students.

Go to be summer Associates absolutely internship in law firms and then must get offers in law firms and then they're on this very rage.

Track and I going to have to specialise in force limit law and I'm going to go coach is very unknown.

You know the really wasn't legal team or even a system for interacting with legal were alright.

Cos I wasn't sure that this would work out this way and I certainly don't think it would work out in the way ultimately dead in cell being in a position to try different things and have some something that work out.

I think it's really important and I've given that your chief executive and former Media lawyer general counsel, does that make you a kind of better customer internally of your own general counsel or Akshay you a nightmare customer because you was double thinking everything.

I always think about this must be the worst thing when you see your cousin it happens.

She having to have like your exact background is nothing worse than an ex-smoker is yet?

Even think about doing his job and so he is he is so highly capable and first and foremost a very skilled first amendment lawyer and sell hopefully I'm not too much of a nightmare to him, but it's really on the top of my mind.

I always ask this question at the end and I've been through 1/2 years of doing this.

No one's ever answered this I don't expect you to either but what's next for you because I'm very happy here at the moment.

No plans to move and give us giving us opportunities to expand and continuing to to make an impact with our work and then build a sustainable business model around that we know we are really part way through that Journey right now will Heather it's been a hugely enjoyable conversation.

I'm very grateful for your time.

Thank you so much.

podcast in association with big things Media


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