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Read this: Is opinion the future of journalism?

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Is opinion the future of journalism?…

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, I'm Andrea catherwood, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello, I've got today the editor of the Today programme as Tony award-winning radio presenter and uncle Luke who runs the TV channel called Dave and if that wasn't enough of a mixed visiting from Colorado a former report from the durango Herald in I have very big plans to tackle fake news worldwide.

Let me introduce them to you all start with these Tony award-winner.

It's shelagh Fogarty and she let you have come hotfoot from the BBC Studios you came off there.

I think I'm about half an hour ago.

Well done for getting here.

Thank you.

We talked about the leaders of the two largest political party is Jeremy Corbyn for 2-hours actually giving L20 made about his position on brexit in the event of becoming prime minister in the event of a referendum take place and then because of exchange between a man and Forest

East London Hospital this afternoon we decided to do a third hour on the appeal or not of Boris Johnson LBC stand for the London Broadcasting Corporation but no because it's available nationally it's rebranded itself as the leading Britain's conversation and Luke Hales knows all about clever band branding because Luke is the channel director Dave have to ask you why is your channel called Dave well, we went out and asked the audience about different names for a channel and Dave came out as the most contentious century most exciting option we had lots of less exciting options at 12 years ago when we was Scott Yates it is I visited from Denver Scott is now working for reporters and he's in the UK to promote something called the journalism Trust initiative quite technical but if it works it will be a very big thing not just for journalists, but for all of us fine.

Stories online we're going to talk about that moss got later on in the show but just wanted to ask a little bit about your job at the durango Herald where is the rain going? What will the new stories there is in the southwestern part of Colorado the property and I wasn't sure if I should take a job in drink because I went to school in New York City and I went to a professor of mine and I told him about the school and he said that the first paper I work but I can go to is it from college and so I went there and had a great time.

We had a lot of fun.

You know just regular small town who's the most popular featuring the paper was the police bladder SO16 of all the little things that the police have done overnight and we got a great stories out of that every one part of the paper that everybody read.

Thank you very much and I'll talk to you later Keira stands of course is the editor of the Today programme and solicitors in durango today is a BBC Radio 4 breakfast programme universally loved and respected by all sides in British politics.

It is of course a very busy week Sarah because tomorrow is John Humphrys last program.

I just took that so you got a big interview with David Cameron is that confirmed that's right.

We've got David Cameron as John's Cameron said he was coming to make sure he got the Old blogger out of the building and is there anything you to say are you hoping for a scope? I think it's always the way that the interviewers is rain tonight.

Think John will have total attention in the way that his unique and to improve interview which is that he doesn't get his so I think you should expect something exciting well.

John Humphrys is famous for being terrier rottweiler in his approach to interviews does that style of interviewing here from the Today programme with his departure.

I'm actually the other person that were interviewing tomorrow is Tony Blair and will be discussing the star of entering and whether it's a sustainable and actually that addictive politicians and scrutiny anyway that some of them are trying to avoid exactly that kind of interview a month ago John Humphrys and Tory grandee.

David Davis vote on the Today programme of domestic violence after a news item about male dancer hitting his wife, what did you think about that? It was it wasn't intentioned.

They were half distance one of those things that happens in live radio which I've earned income from newspapers.

They were only half paying attention.

They heard that there were two to tango dancers and having a bus stop then they haven't they haven't heard properly so we were both apologetic once they realise but but it certainly wasn't intentional second wasn't meant to be a joke about domestic violence.

Have you got a replacement lined up for John Humphreys

We have we have it Today programme presenters, so there are there are four of them and they were used to be too.

So they have already blossomed over that.

Yes, we got for presenters and we also have some and top journalists clearly at the BBC that we can supplement from time so you're going to stick with forming during yes after after you'll only supplement as and when you need at John Humphrys is of course just one of many today presenters over the last 60 years and years written an introduction to a new book about the history of a program.

It's called a history of our world through 60 years of conversation and controversies when I was looking through those that you find in a lot of transcripts of interviews at the program has done with those Cabinet ministers over the years.

Why isn't the case these days that top politicians don't seem to want to appear and expose themselves to the kind of scrutiny on the Today programme with the same.

Frequency that they once did they used to feel they needed to appear on the Today programme where they wanted to or not most of them do their to who don't notably Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson and that's you strategy.

I do think in the two most important ones yes, and it doesn't mean I would say it doesn't mean that we can't analyse and perfectly well in a courtroom style which of having said witnesses and as as well as defendants, but I think that they will realise that in the end and it's something that Tony Blair talks about you can have the retail politics where you just get your message out with me know that the strategy is television.

It's basically wanted looking for the dynamical sympathetic and then you get him out.

It doesn't always work we saw with the with the police photo opportunity at can go wrong and in the end which is something that is going to touch on you you can have as a retail politics but then when you're doing.

At some point you're going to have to explain and argue and I do think looking through that book.

You know the Moments when Mrs Thatcher who was the greatest hits of today supporter and said that her whole day was framed ranting Today programme who would just phone in the middle of an interview you just asked what I thought.

This is what I think so and I think most politicians most politicians do come on.

It is those two exceptions and I think they'll find find electioneering at some point.

They will need to add a notice that even though they say they don't need to let in real time on the phone to out the program.

So you don't have use their return to the editor.

Have a lot of contact with him saying but you should be saying if you want to come on you come and get me the number 10 press office are very very attentive to what's on at today.

So I think that the the the the pretense that somehow.

Listen to Everything believe me.

They are listening brexit.

Obviously the issue that has split the nation and made news programs like yours a huge time as well as something that must be what listen to you regularly accused of bias by figures from both sides of the Debate so what is your approach to balance? Is it is upsetting both sides indication of your strategy to be a better than my reply mostly is it says we are programmed and that's so what people have one thing and then and they respond to that in that they were in time there.

Isn't there is an overall sense of representation and actually wet one thing.

I'm looking at the book that once you go back and famous black man in the 60s who would say talk about demonstrators for instance against Vietnam is hooligans.

So you know I think we're pretty good.

Adding positive feelings are running very high which is another reason why I do think it's a time for politicians to try and explain and argue rather than just use of Sound by it's because that's what I've been messaging you just Twitter politics and actually that's not enough and I think if ever there was a time for a forum like the Today programme and the structure but Today programme interview and the depth of the Today programme interview.

It's now.

It is a genuinely think it's very important public service and democracy.

I'd like to bring a shelagh Fogarty in here as well at this point the BBC from many years hosting the Breakfast Show on five live you had two obviously be strictly impartial never express the personal opinion on political issues the job you have a Dell pc is so very different.

I just wanted to play a short clip you reacting to comments last week about the Independence of Judges yesterday when he did that was awful absolute.

Awful I mean I'm loathe to ever interview man again because it will be so uncomfortable because before you ask him about anything else you have to ask him about his character because that that my friends was the embodiment of lack of character liberating after the BBC to finally be able to say what you think or will you terrified to express your own opinion when you finally got the chance when I first started it wasn't the word of just a real discomfort because I was in the position of having new managers who were not rushing me about that because it's a very different beast and what they do.

I think very well at LBC is allowed presenters to actually be as far as you ever are really in in a radio studio your authentic self your real self, but you're still bound by the rules of of common.

I am still very much bound by my own journalistic.

Morality as well, which was born and raised in the BBC and and visit with everything that you just said there Sarah about the space for a program like the Today programme and the analytical into use there but interestingly since since this brexit division has grown grown and grown and deepened and I've certainly had as many if not more in-depth interviews with politicians around brexit on LBC as well and with call is because obviously there's a huge focus on callers and we get all of those attacks that you might get director that you from political Court as we can play you know down the mine during a conversation from from listeners, but it was it they were difficult skins to shared really interested in how much editorial input you have had LBC compared to other BBC total as a presenter total I'm in charge of it.

So you can say today.

I'm going to do this because I'm not an idiot and they know that I have those journalistic standards that I talk to.

And they know that I will approach it.

Hopefully they know with intelligence and with that you know of a degree of of savvy a bit, but yes, it's you know there's very different tell you what kind of a toilet put do today presenters have clearly not total net for if your presenter and then Goodbye by 9 so we should keep in touch but the structure of the program tends to have been done during the day but in conversation you've got love to break German lesson it and it's so it's done and dusted consultative way, but there are there is a point that you're putting the pregnant together wallpaper asleep.

Just listening to what she was saying are you of course? I've been a newspaper editor where you are paid to have opinions and lead paper.

How difficult was it for you to go the other way it was.

Different size but it's the truth and stop me one was amazing professional production team and how much work they put in you know the pre interview interview and so and it's all new to me and the other was that impartiality is just through your veins you know so I think I knew it was important that have to learn that that on everything but sometimes you know might be all sorts of things that had to catch we were talking about doing some University broadcast through the to the election which is one of the things that that that I've tried to do more off and then immediately is that is hosting the day program representative you body issues, if you were to university and everything comes back.

Eventually we've made the different journeys.

Haven't we from from one to the other do you feel that the impartiality?

Times of impartiality sometimes take the allegations of this accusations of this should say that some of the muscular tea and and and should have faced is taken out of it because you because presenters have to be so circumscribed in in in the need to be impartial.

Do you feel that a danger is improved it because it's the first it's the only option and it's me but I do think that such a courtroom sense of that has been trying to get to that you cannot let your own prejudices colour and to see that actually in the end.

You can strip that way, so I know that people can hear what they think it's isn't is a beauty, but I have never heard an opinion expressed in this place and I think that's an extraordinary thing you talked about it being sacred and leave me alone.

Is might be incredibly liberating away presenters wearables is a publicly for example how they voted in referendum like lots of presents a elsewhere.

I wonder if you can ever imagine it happening, but they wouldn't be impossible, but they could give over an opinion at the BBC it might be liberating.

I think it will destroy the BBC I think they're having done both.

I agree.

I think there is that there is a very very vital space for what goes on here and I think particularly around brexit not exclusively, there's a there's a vital space for what LBC does as well so different you know that there's a space for it because people feel so deeply about it.

I think there's room for the the emotion as long tempered and handle by people and you know I bite the the idea of impartiality at LBC listeners do slightly struggle with the Ofcom code.

All broadcasters including LBC News in whatever form must be reported with you accuracy and presented with due impartiality.

I wonder does that happen and many listeners wonder Nigel Farage evening show has as much right to be on LBC airwaves as I do or is any other presenter there does do you in past presented with you and parcel is as you said there's a program is 3 hours long LBC is 24-hours only any any any broadcast it's on 24/7 but that can be a cross a day and with the BBC you you engage expecting certain things and I think with LBC you engage unless you really don't know what the stations about you and expecting different things and the Ofcom demands.

I think I met over the day and if a particular allegation or particular claim is made by Nigel Farage mayor anybody else then.

Reply has to be sought and is sought and you Ofcom has talked to LBC about this and at the moment.

They're quite happy.

I know about you, but I don't LBC is a success story in terms of ratings had a uk-wide figures have soared particularly in that sort after demographic and 15 to 34 year old is up 65% and I'm sure there's a figure that today would absolutely love to have that huge optic amongst younger listeners.

Do you worry that the format that is so Central to the BBC with his younger viewers going elsewhere.

It's going to be able to remain long-term it will I think that we're in a particularly hectic emotive national mood at the moment, but I think I'm long-term people will start wanting a sense of calm again that already saying that you look how many.

3 days 3 and so I think it's all and I think the idea of it not been there worries people I noticed that if you say, would you would you prefer that it was another way, so I think you to hold your nerve to say when we do have that for the thread with PRINCE2 university students.

It is something they also that they want someone they can trust and they want somewhere that they feel isn't it way being manipulated and that actually is a forum of reason.

I think has another long-term future my business and somebody wants said to me.

Where are the BBC is light that being a good thing LBC door heat that being a bad thing I think I think we can all be both we can all be both long is everybody does their version of journalism which I'm sure you'll responsibly and with energy and a half a journalist with someone with actually with both eyes firmly on the truth and accuracy.

Does everybody think Sheila and Sarah thank you very much both from now on that subject of trust the debater underneath.

The journalistic impartiality is one of the challenges journalism is facing right now missing formation of fake news particularly on social media platforms.

It is eroding trust in the media.

How do we change it or what about if all journals in the world got together and agreed a set of quality standards that they could work to a kind of international kitemark scheme for journalism.

It might sound too idealistic, but reporters without borders the Ngo that campaigns for press freedom thanks.

It could be done set up something called the journalism Trust initiative Scott Yates you been working on this project.

You currently traveling the world talking about it.

That's what you doing here.

Tell us.

How would it work the basic idea is that anybody that wants to present the news go to the website and figure out take the questionnaire there have been working on this for more than a year now.

What are the basics? What are the fundamentals of the French and the initials for reporters on front of the French name for the organisation that was very forward thinking and thinking that we need to do something that is a new way to be a solution for this in the sense that we need something that led by journalist since the homeless in prices has come up.

There's been a lot of talking.

There's been a lot of proposals, but it hasn't been in the actual structural change and so the idea is that we would have actual standards that would come from journalists.

We don't want to government deciding who isn't a journalist and we don't want really is the reality right now which is the Silicon Valley companies are basically deciding who should get featured as a as a journey and we think we should leave that conversation and so that's why they've gone through this rather difficult arduous process of standards to come up with what is an actual News Centre news outlet.

Agreed to produce news in accordance with the standards being transparent for example about their funding having a complaints procedure working to an editorial code of conduct that kind of thing and in return.

They would get the digital certification that advertising platforms like Facebook would look out for the throat and it may not be an actual market may not be ok.

If somebody says we may never be a household brand name for the people in the business for the people that listen to the media show on BBC this will be an important tool an important process that will be able to elevate all of the that's been done around the world and also the journalism organisations that are open to support the motivation for this is because you think that it could stop fake news on this information from spreading and making money advertising talk through on that would work the basic idea is anybody that's doing what is willing to do the hard work of filling out the questionnaire to be able to be part of the standard process.

Easy thing to do and then so the moment will get the published the results and will be able to elevate those that are doing it and expose to the platforms in need obviously the platform the advertisers on board for this and then their algorithms would promote those certified resources and not the other ones and work 126 signatories and are Google and Facebook so they've been very involved in the process and you know it's a lot of hard conversations about exactly the way they think should be presented, but you know they're looking for two in they would like it to be there would like to be able to have Solutions that are owned by them.

So they can say look at this is journalist deciding for the original publishers and governments the Russell Crowe solutions to put a lot of money into local news in Canada but they don't want to be the one to decide who should get the money until they're looking for an external tool and the JT I could be a tool for that too.

I'm just

Talking about who are who are legitimate publishers.

Not what they publish for example.

It was a big story yesterday the sun in the UK splash the story about a personal tragedy in the life of Stokes family the cricketer many people find it distasteful, but it wouldn't have reached your standards.


I wish I can do specific black and white answer.

I will say that they don't do any individual piece of content but it could be that piece of content violated their own editorial mission statement part of the sentence is that you haven't had it for you say what that is and if that if that story had been in violation of their own of iteration statement somebody may have been with we had the same place somebody would be able to complain under that's it and they could potentially certification the British newspapers are at notorious.

Lee I don't want to be handcuffed or man called in this colourful.

Think in the past do you think that sign up for this?

I I think they might well resist as it's so is so ingrained that that sense of independence and partition happen in the case.

You've just mentioned is a threshold of public tolerance and you have to react to What your reader's to say you'll you'll No Remorse when they've gone too far and then they behave for a bit and then they you know return and I don't know whether so so much part of the psyche.

I think they're term the what the way that certainly that newspapers reacted against any such a firm sense of regulation in the formula.

Is it is would suggest not funny.

This is this word is the end it was significantly changed the algorithms and therefore the news that would see when we go online.

That's a goal and that's the hope in and we know that difficult to get publishers to produce food, but we think if we can show enough evidence of that and if we can maybe listen to a little bit better behaviour that we could all of them they would see the economic benefit of doing.

Stochastic practice, what does something that's going to be evolving working out of over using yours, thank you very much.

I'm going to make an abrupt tonight to the man from Dave Hales is the TV channel Dave and you can show tonight Luke it's called comedians giving lectures that's the new show that's just starting work today.

So can you do lectures is one of our new Originals with super excited about it is hosted by Sara Pascoe brilliant very smart comic and it is each week.

She invites 3 comments to come on and give a lecture they get it from a list of letters that have been given in the real world tour academic lectures or TED talks those kinds of things it is just a lovely way to get stand up on the Channel from a new angle.

I can't turn a huge amount of electrons that you will laugh a lot from her lectures tonight's we've got Nish Kumar we've got Natasha dimitriou got Tom Allen and they are all three brilliant.

Has brexit been good for Dave tricky question I think what what I'm surprised by it.

She is how comedy has kind of moved away from brexit.

I think a couple of years ago.

It was talking about on every single panel, Show at Edinburgh at the comedy awards and the Fringe Festival lots of the comedy sets I saw her about Donald Trump where about brexit and what was lovely this year was there seems to be a real age for people to stop talking about these things that aren't really very moving in opposite directions so lots of the company was a Chinese was about and critical power structures was about privilege and questions around kind of gender politics.

It was just a much more interesting deep thoughtful comedy at the bigger picture of your industry in a year and channel and Netflix is already well on your territory as Amazon them all signed deals with many British comedians to record sound up special.

Comedy panel shows etc that Dave is not long for this world.

I think I think I actually think it's really good you've got these if you got his big S5 providers with huge budgets coming into the industry and kind of injecting loads of cash and excitement back into comedy Dave is a channel.

We've come a long way since when we launched with the biggest producers of comedy week commission a huge amount of comedy with big-name Talent we used to get ideas after other broadcasters are turning down to be honest an hour getting them first so James Acaster brought us his idea for TV show like the school in Josh Widdicombe and we made that show without questioning as it was brilliant, so we've come a long way and we're at the forefront now which is excited got an awful.

Lot would talk about and we will do in the podcast and that will be like later on today, but that is it from us for today.

You can search on the BBC Sounds app for mediashow.

Thank you very much to all my guests.

Sans shelagh Fogarty Scott Yates and of course to be back sometime next week as the man from Dave thank you so much for staying on when it was quite a different proposition and it is involved quite quickly.

Tell me about that existed before day of the tentacle UKTV G2 which is a horrible name so we realise we had to do something that we came up with Dave in a preschool session at work with tested it with the audience it creates a lot of discussion provides a lot of quite heated discussion we were onto something so we don't just say but we kept the content very similar is an mainly archive content from the BBC so a lot of the comedy panel shows so Have I Got News For You QI Mock the Week things like that and then in daytime.

We're more than entertainment channel and so that's how we launched as an acquisition channel so we bought programs and repeat them on their faces and it's changed dramatically.

Yes so for a couple of years.

We stayed fairly.

Such success at the Beginning you know the brands really ignited something in people it felt like a cultural Zeitgeist a moment that we knew we had something really available on her hands, so we wanted to revolve the audience audience is have evolved a lot comedy has evolved a lot the TV landscape has evolved a lot and so we had to keep up with that the main change being as we commit most of us to make our own programs.

We still have the luxury of having some of the best content comedy content in the world from the BBC but we also make her own now one of those channels that you have to spend a fair amount of time scrolling down through the program guide to find what's your strategy for getting people to tune in today and we we do lots of things.

I think what what separates day from the competition is we've got heart with heart and soul got a tone of voice with very personal and so we spend a lot of time effort and money on.

Sing a message out into the world so we win lots of water out of home advertising which is purely designed to make people Chapel there's not many brands out there who don't have a call to Action or you know we're not drive to watch a show we just giving a little smile on the tuba on the train so we do lots of that we've got a brilliant and social media team so we're very active across Instagram Facebook with the usual platforms and again.

We had a bit of width of people's world.

We're just going to make people smile that day better.

So we just got a really passionate team you just we want everybody to spend a bit of time with data feel bit better when they leave and I think that's a lovely place to be in any well.

That's not always that nice you did mention that your audience in the daytime particular skewed towards towards men the channel name day you might assume.

It's a real blokes channel.

Is that the case no not at all? We definitely going Brand and when we launch we had more of an audience.

Is down the party getting to Dave as we've evolved the channel we have become much less gender has become much less binary culture has become much less binary, and I think Dave will continue on that path as well, so we we are a bit more most Green Day time in Peak we're actually not with quite gender neutral and an original programming of which we now have you know maybe 10 new comedy is a year they tend to be 50-50 male female because we're not trying to make comedy for men which one to make that resonates with all of modern Britain and that's men women people from every background pictures to advertisers that you're aiming for an abc1 audience that means people are quite well off.

Yeah, I mean advertising.

It's a murky while there are people that hard to reach by the BBC One's being people with a bit more disposable income I guess and put it in the simplest terms a bit late.

I'm watching TV so advertisers pay more to

Those people it's not necessarily that you have a disproportionate amount of those people.

It's just that you've got some and the other guys want them now.

Very representative of modern Britain we have we know we Are BANG on with Harry and representatives.

Who are your competitors them for that audience E4 spend a lot of money on comedy and tends to be US sitcom ITV to draw a huge young audiences.

Love Island is the biggest show on telly for young people Comedy Central Comedy Channel I mean they would be the kind of man.

I wonder audience for some of their comedies in some of the dramas, but it's obviously Netflix if you silly not to mention Netflix you know we're seeing more and more viewing going to extra services and making it hard for all of the traditional linear channels to stay still we have our own vod service called TV own vod service will UKTV play so we can.

Hold all the days content and without going through the traditional means and scrolling on our website and app is is brilliant to use really simple and all that contents on there, so what's going to happen next time you know this this year the UK TV the parent company of your channel is wholly owned by BBC Studios across commercial on the BBC and then we've got rip box.

This is the BBC and ITV streaming service Howard David into that we're still figuring it all out.

I think what I will say about being wholly owned by DC Studios is there's just a huge injector excitement and energy in the building.

You know we've got this partner who just want us to succeed and they know they have resource.

They have a pipeline of content they make some of the best continent in the world and are fully invested making these channels work be back on a linear traditional platformer be that in the digital space.

So what we do have now is a real opportunity to take Dave out into the real world and a real meaningful way and that's what we talked to BBC

is about mostly at the moment Luke hails from Dave thank you very much indeed for coming in.

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