Read this: The NYT and The FT
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BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 with me or editor of the world's most influential publications on the Times David see you again another barber is one of the UK's longest serving it is or was because yesterday line announced that he standing down in January as the editor of the Financial Times now.
Just a bit worried about your distinguished.
I'll have to join us today, but we have to come out to play Just you are second choice, but she will be joining us in the new year.
Look forward to that you said liner yesterday that it was a job in James it's important to know when to leave and know that you've managed to succession and you have a worthy successor.
That is really love, she's been deputy for 4 years and you know I've been edited for 14 years.
That's the second longest ever in the history of the ft since 1888 and we got 1.1 million readers and we've done some great journalism and I've coming up to 35 years and you know 6465 in January so good about it.
You can have the baton on you never want to leave a top job feet first what you going to do next have no idea got each other in the office.
Have you got the job vacancy reading up on the media show at can confirm that's completely untrue.
Have you got any office light up jobs and nothing by the way I got a job to do in your American accent.
Did you also have very sad news this month and commiserations from all of us that you've lost a number of your subscribers because President Trump has cancer.
Prescription to the New York Times but I want us to answer the following questions first of all elite newspapers like yours accentuating rather than solving the crisis of trust in journalism today secondly is social media damaging democracy III is the rise of strong men like President Trump actually the saviour of the news industry with a cover and a bit of both sides, but before we get into the big questions Dean and for those who don't know you so I don't find out about a bit more about your background and come from a regular working-class community in New Orleans tell me about the package.
I grew up in the back of a restaurant my father and mother in a small neighborhood restaurant.
Please call me.
I got to walk to the kitchen everyday and fried chicken for lunch and I think it was that that made me realise I had to leave me.
V5000 the restaurant business was too hard and I was reported in New Orleans for amateur college in New York reported in the wall and Chicago Washington Angeles and the first african-american run the so crazy lady.
Do you actually think about that? I think about that? I'm sure I think about the last laugh because it makes me realise how little diversity there isn't a business.
I mean of the 506 biggest newspapers in America only to have had an American eligible for me because I was the editor of The Times have it better not agree.
I think about it makes me in-house get the call is a person that makes me ask questions of powerful people give me that the trade that a good dramas should have and hope which is that I wish you like I'm on the outside Looking In which is good the new times has quite a lot and
And under Mark Thompsons where the former director-general of the BBC use your chief executive may be 2% Max of America what have you personally done in your time is activator to recharge say 98% of America who don't read you we started the podcast to get younger readers called the day when we intentionally we started a weekly television show me intention aligned ourselves with the network.
There was more widely seen in the middle of the country because I don't want any other time to only be read by people in New York London and Los Angeles that's important to me and I'm looking at these days if you want to go viral in Britain or in America attacking the media in as a conspiratorial way is often a very safe bet why is there such appetite today for the belief that journalists are on the take well on the take in a very gullible or actually taking money that they part of.
Ravishment the crap that they're part of an out of touch sleep well.
I think that there is a part of the criticism that way that the media this country were to metropolitan is correct.
There's a real problem in the decline of regional newspapers in the UK and I think if I was to indulge a little bit of self-criticism of the ft.
We didn't get brexit right.
I'll phone Chris donnellan, so we invited back to cover the referendum campaign all came back to London and said we just said it said leave and very few of us believe so we took some lessons from there now.
We've increased coverage and thoughtfulness of outside London if you try to do to your address that well I think making people get out of Westminster making sure that political Correspondents and not just quotes in the Bible and in a just paying a little bit more attention to the quality of commissioning.
Dean and I were talking about this last night and the most important thing is not to rush not to constantly feel that you're at the at the mercy of social media where everything is treat your trigger happy because the crucial thing for a news organisations where you don't get accused of Conspiracy people you win Trust is that your judge.
So good and you're not on a hair trigger and your distinguishing the signal from the noise of you to admit that you didn't get brexit completely right.
What would you done differently about ticketone? I think the most important thing was we would have understood that these were not quite rational judgement.
Just about economics.
We underestimated the power of the immigration argument in we looked at claims that turkey was going to join the EU by 2020 total rubbish.
I remember having a conversation on that in the margins of the first debate whether
To remain nameless and telling her that turkey is actually not going to join the EU you know we didn't believe it with these things for rubbish at we thought that a lot of the remain claims rubbish in terms of the Doom mongering but we underestimated but that people could be moved to vote leave not for purely rational grounds was actually no sorry can't tell fully believes what he says about journeys being corrupt.
It was an error fares to the corrupt news in addition to the fake news media that it's science it's the judiciary.
I think I think that he has said that his thing that's a stick in touch with the last time.
I talked to him was probably a year or two ago.
Do you have his number in your phone number on my phone has been present in person and that's when he came with your time this one and one phone conversation and what they want to speak to you about the dealership or you? Can you reset do something you didn't like did you change your what did you say to do in Broad principles? You can tell if you agreed with him and he is the gift that keeps on giving isn't he but editorial and commercial lease not so much of a war of attrition between the media and Trumpet some convenience is great for you.
You know in the beginning trump gave a big bump to the American media two things to give us a big economic Pompey give us a readers in the beginning.
He also gave us clarity of the American press in a suspect.
The press who was having an identity crisis.
We had lost audience also said the medium exchange people stop reading as we were going to layoffs buyout.
Over 7 people were stopping on the street and supporting me and saying please, please cover this guy save the Republic so it gave us a sense that people really want to but we had to offer a bump but he didn't do after the first few months.
I think the Rise after that after the first she was not because of trump and it was because technology get better and people said on the phone.
He also gave us something that's not so good.
He told a lot of people who want to read us.
They were not to be trusted and he told a lot of world leaders that it was ok to call the press enemies of the people and they go over The Long Haul that's not a good thing at all.
It's different corroded trusting too so much self-promotion that I did talk to the president did interview in the Oval Office in 2017 and it was like I think I can say this a bit like interviewing you know Tony Soprano
What do you mean by that? I mean the physical presence that kind of studied thuggery intimidation, but you know very narcissistic.
Please just extraordinary with total chaos In The Oval Office I mean I've been there a couple of times.
I never seem like it was like a film set and then the second point I want to pick up dinner saying you know it's an unadulterated plastics that trump.
You know it's great for the media actually one of the huge problems is how he dominates the movie dominates the conversation and he used to convey.
What's the Benin former Close adviser called diversionary fire.
I mean they create they create tension they Stoke head and then the media followers not known as the times but the temptation is to respond to every tweet I can remember 2 years ago one of my strategy sessions literally asked for a presentation on America and one of the editor says when I think.
We need a strategy for dealing with Trump's tweets, and I'm going I don't think so follow everything honestly with your sensitive red EFT had it on his death he had it on his office when the Times Michael go of that parish went to interview him.
I mean it wasn't there and it was in the room on his desk long enough when the times did the story the next day as I recall for some reason the picture the photograph wasn't that clear this discussion to addressing the issue of trust which is what is really corroded briefly we can obviously to have shown his whole series and how do you restore so much to corrode stick to the facts.
I mean when people say the alternative facts that you and dangerous territory understand that don't personalize.
Make it about an offer context and I think then if you if you don't purse over personalise, then I think you're on much sitting on that sofa.
Graham will be really transparent about how we work really let people know so you weren't sure you let people know that the corresponding to rain from Afghanistan on the ground and it been on the ground let people share your documents let people see how the reporters are let people see that there are no will people have acknowledged your mistakes and stick to your guns when you're right.
I want Windows that the most things fess up if you got things wrong you more films like spotlight in All the President's Men as well turning them to listen to hear it.
I will return to your very individual approaches to editing a newspaper.
There is a school around today that says in the internet age the role of Gatekeepers I edited is radically diminished.
How is the role of an executive editors you calling a state changed from when you started out?
It's huge mean when I started as a journalist it was all print and and you pick the stories for the front page and you pick the photos for the front page.
I now running is wrong that does video that does has a podcast is a weekly television show there's just so much more stuff to do and so many more ways to reach people you also have but I'm heading on the first The Newsroom filled with people who know how to do things I have no idea how to do my predecessors if you ran a newspaper in the 1970s a good editor could edit a story write a story headline.
I have no idea of running podcast I have no idea how to make a video that's any good.
I'm so so in away your main job is to sort of say yes or not.
That's my management style.
I say yes as often as I can sometimes I say yes, but but I try to say yes or not and I tried to step back and let the people know how to things.
Do things I don't know how to do on compared to when you started out, who it is that Bradley the Washington Post or when you're here is Harry Evans those guys had a control of the flow of information society that you can't possibly have in the digital age to how and why were you talking about this idea of the Gatekeeper how's the role of the editor had to be updated with accommodate the fact that you can't control what people know that people could 4 years ago.
I'm going to answer the question by saying that the Editors role is to be them the the maintainer of the gold standard you are the readers editor you are responsible for the quality and that means that you have to be you both engaged in the content.
You can't do everything but but if there's something centre you got to be aware on your radar that you're involved now.
Let me just had a couple of things to what day was saying so it's multimedia and that's what we're in now that game I mean people have to be able to do very different skills but the other two different so I would say.
We know so much more about our readers I mean before it was the letters to the editor the phone call now.
We got all this data with the of what people are consuming and the other thing is democratized and what I mean by that is you get instant reaction on readers comments people.
It's a two-way process in a way that it never was at the beginning last thing is when I just started on The Scotsman I mean we have to Bloody Mary's before lunchtime.
Who was the last time you had a drink and I can't remember that don't underestimate by the way the role of Edinburgh is gatekeeper you there down that still a very powerful role, but there's so much information coming out most of it not believe Mona believable a lot of advice a lot of it isn't a lot of it actually fake.
I do think that there is a role for for an institution like line out on mine people can turn to us.
I believe that a group of smart people for people are poor people suffer through all the stuff and this is the best version of we should be today in credit.
Just one very quickly the last thing is in the end, but really stops with Dean and with me so we're doing some investigation and it's got massively or risk being told gone through three lots of advice QC advice and I'm looking at a 2000003 Million Dollar Bill and I got to say I'm I going with this or not and it's actually your call and then why did you make the call you did and western which you say is a highlight of your career the times.
I had gone through hours with reporters from the beginning and you everything they had and you there on a record sources and their Off the Record sources, and it was completely salad.
It was just now look what it was actually easy call centre.
You personally briefly person involved in the colouring pages of the ft.
Hiring colonist using their issues anything copywriting headlines.
I'm very heavily involved in recruiting columnists.
I spoke to you do headlines and that's for the and and and edit copy, but when I spoke to you in your office couple of years ago.
You told me you don't have to know what's in the upper page until you read them in print the following our tradition at the New York Times executive editor runs everything but the opinion is there a superior wearing a newspaper reporter at the Daily Mail say you do you want to do in the former editor of The Daily Mail of course saying you do what you want to do the offered pages.
I'll check it out tomorrow.
You know I don't second guess on the commentary and the deal with the ft is the column is what they like, but they serve ultimately at the Palladium theatre, who does consult others but it's quite for me.
It's quite a pleasure to deal with commentary opinion and he goes without I never said that by the way.
Social media discussed this is another massive difference between the two of you.
I think in that line of your very big treat and Dean your last week was 5 years ago, but the Editors of your stature.
Do your top report to do? Why don't you first off? I think that editors have left to say my world consists unfortunately said that so most of my life as a reporter in of my office in Time Square in my apartment and expose the rest of the world.
It's first thing the second thing is I think I think my tweets whether I like it or not.
Would have so much more weight as the executive editor and I don't want to I don't want to do that to the dangers of spending so much time in what is in effect a glorified Chapman has risk thought long and hard about it and I think you know Dean's got a really serious point I mean if you put the editor out there on Twitter you got 280 characters in your finger opinion, I just
You this is a good way of promoting ft content and occasionally if I've done an interview with some substance in a little bit of the furnishing of the personal profile and you know if you know you're stepping down in January 2019.
This is about to Facebook and Twitter should be regulated as a public utility.
I'm not going to tell me because that's why we do have an opinion page which is that you are the boss of the most hallowed a venerated publication in America and you don't want to give us the weather tonight in the great questions of our age which is how we exercise democratic scrutiny over the companies that out of nowhere.
I really find out and you don't have to be regulated reporters whose job it is to investigate your Twitter and the others every day to cover them and the boss of the paper that played a large.
The Cambridge analytica story and I'm the guy who wants to be able to say to those platforms and when I cover the heck out of you, but I'm not going to take a position on how you should be regulated you work at the BBC visit both gone down.
I would be careful about regulation not least in a country the First Amendment on the other hand they clearly need to take more responsibility for the content that they're producing in their hands off attitude of two or three years ago.
It's not good enough now.
They had an army and of scrutiny is and also during this but if you would do that check if you got this used to be called I'm going to move on to the question of onus.
You can't talk about it without talking about coming down to accept you being exceptionally lucky with Marjorie scardino Pearson and then Nicky do you accept in in having the Salzburg as patient owner?
Profit first necessary you've been the exception of the paper at the worst think of it at the worst economic time when the Washington Post changed hands when the Los Angeles Times owners lost control the Salzburg is held onto the paper and even though it's bigger now than it ever been it never got smaller than like 11 or 1200.
That's in the Dog Days when everybody thought the place could business date day.
They see if they have a long long long view longer than mine and that's that's that's the reason of paper remains great.
We've been talking about your decagon careers in the meeting.
Where are the things about jainism and the public sphere in the two decades both me and the rise of pr.
And social media lower the barrier to entry in the weights democratise Media but particularly financial and corporate PR and now I don't always but often do put a barrier between you and the truth, so do you see Dean do CPR the enemy?
Your tea until proven innocent big companies always had PR politicians have always had PR the job of journalist has always been to get around them that job of journal we shouldn't we shouldn't pretend that the digital age has made getting access to powerful people and and uncovering the wrongdoing has become harder.
It's hard, but it's harder than it was before that crucial point is that the best reporters They're gonna have multiple sources.
I mean if you have a really well paid professional PR operation that you can seduce the reporter and thinking you know that's the story and they might get might get lazy, but I believe it has been around a long time the burnishing of the image which sometimes can be good facilitator personally.
I don't deal with them.
I mean I deal with them and they may try sometimes to get in touch.
As a general principles and then in that case how you both first managed to tell him at all jealous face when you have powerful sources and you guys do you know what's going on Dean you going to get close to people in power but then when those powerful people do bad things you have to sometimes burn Bridges and be independent of that activity of the people in power in the entire time I ran the Washington area of the New York Times to a big chunk of the Obama era.
I never meant Barack Obama when I was running the washing dryer ever socialise with senators if they wanted to come in and talk to me and reporters about stories.
I did that.
I never spend private social time with powerful people.
That's what a huge.
How do you look on those people who see as their job to be the inside a to be often too close to power sometimes there.
Lazy stenographers, but they might sometimes people think that I mean they're sitting in the lobby.
Which is a pack of Westminster's I love those guys feel it's a job to get close to what I have a whole news room filled with people whose job it is to get access to do reporting to find things out and I hope the role of the executive editor of The New York so large in American journalism, and I don't want to be one of those guys.
You know I don't want to bend brevi.
Where are you now? God rest his soul became so close to John Kennedy that he couldn't see some of us for us.
I know I think I think the especially is the editor of The New York Times I need to be clean and spend time with powerful people in a slightly different but I mean I like to be in the mix.
I like to have no the the political animals the business people but
If I my rule is you know I'm incredibly sensitive if there's anything we're they trying to interfere with content or a story if they ever make a call and I'll be kind of cold about it, but I I totally get what been saying you're in Brussels Boris Johnson said oh my god.
Have you tried to get close Jeremy Corbyn to be spent much time with him? He hasn't come in and when did you know I actually have never met him in the invited him to come here at the moment doing the Harvey Weinstein story when Harry Weinstein reached out to me how it was wondering what she will know it would have been where I biggest advertisers.
He reached out to me.
He could go on the reporters heads in common.
Use invite me places and everyone invite me to fundraisers and everyone and I told him I told these people are not taking the call if you want to talk about the story.
Google subjects of Investigation she talked to reporters don't get stuck to me.
Yeah, I take the same room as a fascinating for a minute when I make it look Indian comedians that will one day be right for you and all manner of highlights and I will look into it by talking about the much more interesting lowlights Dean all editors at screw up occasionally, what's the biggest mistake of your tenure? Can you put your face into your palms mating your text about brexit? I would say I will miss I miss the story of the rise of Donald Trump I don't have to have an understanding about educated the electrode was and how much the electric electric wanted a big change an acceptable next one.
I think we could have done a little bit more to understand the risks building up.
In the run-up to the financial crisis, but we did have the story we just didn't put it on the homepage.
OK that's fine.
If you must know what's the price of I think the interview with Vladimir Putin was a big to the pre midnight an hour and a half of the Beast Andy just changed all I cared enough to get down because you find an hour long version of our interview from last week with Bob began to the CEO of Disney remaking headlines on both sides of the Atlantic way back at the same time next week when Channel 4 Dorothy Byrne will be here and that's going to be very loud it for now.
Thanks to Anna barber.
Thanks to Andy McKay and that's it.
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