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The media's criminal obsession…

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 they are too big and no relation whatsoever to each other.

Yes, they are totally unconnected ok.

I'm talking about politicians and criminals start the criminals because we're asking why media about crime is the genre that really does pay podcast TV shows magazines boom time for true Crime serve time for fraud and users experience behind bars to co-found under TV production company specialising in tales from the criminal world turning little bit later about your new channel 4 Series what makes a murderer at the more trustworthy world, is it crime or TV products are both pretty much the same really?

The way and you know doing crying he's not like something that just anyone goes and dance like you have to be quite created to do it so TVs creative to Adam my business partner often says that we just arguing different in a little while and chief of heat magazine Bella magazine and crime monthly Julie when you're part of our monthly earlier at this year said the magazine was going to be positioned alongside Woman's Weekly titles on magazine racks.

Why you sad to do that because we knew there was a female audience for Crime TV documentaries true crime books.

We knew it was sort of 65% 70% female we knew we were all talking about true crime documentaries books etc ETC in the office and so we also made out of business decision.

We need to a mess that people actually buy magazines that goes to the newsstand and those.

The weekly buyers so I'm going to see how the political parties are using the media to get their messages out or not as the case may be which is why Alison Phillips here editor of The Daily Mirror Alison good to see you last week the mirrors reporter travelling with other journalist on the Conservative Party battle bus has that ban as you called it now being rescinded and did you have an explanation no, no we're still not on the bus we hold that it was felt that we weren't being sufficiently supportive.

I think to the Tories and they felt that small writing was was personal against Boris Johnson we know there's a couple of stories that we worked on an interesting particularly.

It was around the stuff that we've been doing about the possibility of the NHS being sold off or something.

It's really hitting a nerve and

How is the band conveyed to you? Is it through the night before that to the bus the next morning case there's a change of heart at which point she was pointed in the direction away and not allowed on which is the first time any that has ever happened to us in any in any in the last referendum.

We have always been on that bus every else.

It's so interesting that I should say we've invited the Conservative Party press office to respond to the claim that they want to get in touch.


Do thank you all as we can talk about the election coverage in the principles that guide it a bit more detail shortly last week and we looked at Facebook as refused to ban political advertising is also why the Tories have been criticized for how they used Twitter this week.

It's a very old school Media Tactics that have raised eyebrows newsquest one of the UK's largest regional publishers has written to the Electoral Commission basically accusing the Liberal Democrats of producing.

Fake local newspaper that mimics one of its titles Katy French is the editor of The Basingstoke Gazette the aggrieved party this Katie to explain what your complaint is about basically the problem this week in Hudson and singer of the country where the Liberal Democrats have posted invitation local newspapers through the door voters now.

They don't say that you got a masthead at the front and it says we are free newspaper covering Winchester and beyond quite closely to see that the paper is actually been published is not immediately clear newspapers is a type of campaign leaflet is an old is the hill that thing you about this is it a good excuse there are lots of things that result of the hills that rightly so you know ruled out when they pointed out to be inappropriate and I think dinner time but we're talking about fake news a lot more this clearly isn't.

A tactic that they should be especially if it's been so bad about taking you for the dangers.

Just really missing formation.

This is a national issue is not affected and James mitchinson, Yorkshire Post some of these so-called local papers in your neck and it's not just to let you know I guess we should be flattered because political parties want to be honest because there are many kings him and imitating on the one hand.

Yes, it is as old as the hills and the public at large and the media are getting more sophisticated.

We're better connected and better able to call out these things and and I just think it's slightly worrying actually because when were newspapers are imitated and the reader feels jute and it may well, be that they don't go back to a newspaper for a second.

That undermines all of us and undermines democracy.

What have you seen that? You don't get caught in north west liberal Democrat as she's again.

It's on the same template as the one that they can't do this one has your very own John pienaar's name and blazoned across the front and look at some sort of byline inside desert is a leading article.

It says news comment suggesting that everything else around it is obviously real and should be trusted and the format of this the presentation of it and it's nefarious.

It's wrong.

It needs calling him by the Electoral Commission and we need to legislate much more at rigorously robust against this because it really is dangerous and damaging president has to stop ok? Thank you Joseph stories in the Labour Party have also been at the taxi from James what he wants to be done about this.

What do you like to be done that it would be great and I also think that you know moving forward political party should not proceed with these types of Tactics and editorial director today has launched a campaign and he will not teasing Tactics and future.

We're all veterans with all these days giving their frequency is a general sense that things are getting worse and I can't quite work it out whether the parties now or employing people who just don't understand the Rules of Engagement things like the the the the the fact checking think went out on Twitter GCHQ press office.

Branded it's the fact that you've got people who are really deliberately trying to rescue the fact or you got an absolute idiot for too much influence which is possibly happen as well with the local newspapers.

Maybe you've got just got someone who just doesn't really understand the enormity of what was going on here and the dangers of it and it's just sort of thing I will knock out a newspaper that doesn't know mate maybe that's what happen.

If not we have got some very cynical things going on which are really trying to scare you add moxie pest.

I'm not allowed on the Tory party bus from the conservative point of view.

They would say the Daily Mirror coverage is predictably and permanently hostile to they've got beef with stories about your courage to the NHS and so they've got to find out room on Airbus lots of friendly pubs in Turners Cross Street would love to be on and they feel they do well in the post need you.

What should the Conservative Party

I give you a free pass on the bus, but I think they know as well as we do that if they are to be successful in this election they need to win over some of those to keep talking about in the summer the labour voters who voted leave in the referendum.

So they know that we have the means of speaking to people because someone has there are readers but they are they are so determined to cut out a conversation.

That's what he said to do now.

We feel that all our readers regardless of how they vote have got the right to know what's in store for them in a in a new government and so me what I think I have to go to think it matters what mirror readers think it matters that mirror readers have got the opportunity to see those policies and that there is somebody there scrutinising those policies on their behalf.

We need to be in that.

Would you have like the others? Would you like other journalists to walk out in solidarity with for instance and in particular is an excellent let it would have been good for her.

If she'd if other Genesis up with this will not.

Yeah, I do think that would be helpful and we had various shows of solidarity privately but no one actually got off the bus and there is a terrible precedent here as well is absolutely no nothing stopping the Labour Party from picking the telegraph for the Express or whoever else after they're both of them access to whatever events and then before you know it all we got is politicians.

Speak who they think agree with them and the polarization that we've seen in politics over the last 3-years.

Just gets worse and worse and we have no way of finding common ground.

Did you try to organise a bit of a protest did you try to encourage and solicit? No we didn't and I was absolutely incandescent as whole thing I was Furious but if you're going to start now because that's not to do with me.

That's what I read is 1 and what they what they write to us.

We can we count and their life experiences of the last 10 years of austerity, so that's why we hold.

We do but but when after the anger faded what I was just left this incredible sadness.

This is what we come to you as a country that the politicians won't listen.

It's not just asked we've got Boris Johnson that I believe he's not going to do engineering interview.

It's looking like it's come out in the last hour or so and he's not on the Channel 4 leaders debate is not going to do the Channel 4 climate change debate so so we've got those who just choosing who's going to write.

What about about various aspects and it's just not right.


I think he's definitely buy this is definitely hiding from people Piers Morgan's call you back quite a few times on this morning Good morning Britain stays out on the street campaigning everyday.

Does journey is done loads of Interest during the campaign he didn't give a Daily Mirror chance to go and have a free pass on the bus or those things out and about on the streets as well.

We know how manufacturers some of those are as well and without blowing trumpets.

Conotrane to difficult questions to try and get another problem.

That's why they put themselves in front of us before we come to my absolute.

I want to talk about the mirror in this election petition.

What do you know about what your reader's our readers voted in 2016? How is little lever mainlines, so we were marginally to remain a very big up in the northwest with very big in Liverpool Merseyside which voted very much to remain but because it's you know probably 554265 that there's not massively that we have kept fairly straight back on brexit because we understand all the reasons why people voted the way they did but I tell you the one thing is that they tell us what we know when they write to us, but that they are voting on brexit so many days until brexit on the NHS of crime.

Are you going to endorse Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party

That wasn't meant to be at the moment.

Don't know unless he does XYZ so they can rely on you.

They are aware that you get you get the sense speaking to them their operation there a way of how precious and rare the daily mirrors in terms of support from Fleet Street the left side of the argument you've got us and you've got the Guardian really and but what we do is that we speak to working normal ordinary people across the country.

I'm saying that they don't you know we're about 17 people across print and online now in massive not so there's a lot of people out there interesting events in the area.

Should be back in April the circulation Diplo 500000.

That's down 11% year-on-year that's in line with Fleet Street a whole decade ago.

It was 1.3 million, so you've lost 60% of your print readers.

What's 10 years now? I speak to somebody wants to close a newspaper very very sad.

Do you accept that the future of newspapers print is managed to climb I think you showed off an awful.

Lot longer than a lot of people have thought because you know you still got people to a regular print readers who are probably in their early 40s.

So you wanting a newspaper a print product however having said all of that clearly digital is the future and what we are trying to do is grohe digital presents and use all the skills and all the values and all the the the mirrors in making sure that that shines online.

What is special on tomorrow well at the moment the the unredacted papers about the NHS and what that could mean let's turn to crime and it will come back to your views on crime Crimes of the estate with cabbage and I know you a lot of time thinking about that to Alison at why is it the crime pays for the Media UK

Netflix box set and podcast about the criminal world, what is it about the British and American universal appetite for crime and how does the immediate satisfy I mention Tony that you are the co-founder of the World TV head of crime Story how you made the transition from Criminal to TV producer.

Yeah, I mean I started I had a documentary made about in 122011 call how to get away with stealing that was kind of my birth into the media world voice made.

It was a really good dark.

I started to stand the prices in the processes in the background and started to that.

I would do access to think and I'll get people in two places at that never been in before like I've had Gordon Ramsay in the boot of car a few times and things like that like taking them into environments that they've never ever been into but talking to people that are actually talking real stuff and getting the message out and we live in an extremely tough times and you know.

Stuff that we see on TV doesn't actually reflect what's going on out there and so some of those people really want to have a voice and talk about you use your experiences to help reduce the new Channel 4 show at what makes a murderer is be honest, how much were you trying to play on the huge accessory Netflix series called making a murderer didn't come into at all really.

He's a big coincident now because they didn't start off like that.

So actually started off with something called human time bombs which wasn't focused solely on murders in the beginning.

It was focused on people that commit violent acts and what leads them to commit a violent at how did you choose a contributed? It was a long process we interviewed loads of different contributors and then we will come down in the enter.

Just free and their stories were quiet impact for they were the main stage on board.

You know when to start talking to this guy start talking to their families about coming out in mainstream.

TV and their story is going to be able to the first time a lot of people started to fall away.

You know the families.

Don't want that sort of.

That kind of where we won't be that.

What's the present for those who don't know this is what happens if yes, I mean it starts off with a first.

It was a guy called John Massey as shown on the last weekend 2100.

You know John he shot her doorman in 1975 called Charlie Higgins and we go on a journey with John of why he done it so what actually lead John to commit murder and a courses as you go through the show you realise that John has a trunk and amygdala and there's lots of different risk factors.

We're not saying that that's actually made John commit murder, but that might be what made him commit murder and let me start looking at that side of it was never going to get anything done and we had a lot about the at the duty of care towards contributors to TV programmes in particular.

We cover the Ofcom consultation on new rules around it important factors that for you to production company massive.

I'm in at you know how duty of care goes on and on and on the guys would have been given you know.

I know there was two forms of informed consent that they went through every time and I still talk to the guys on a daily basis.

We meet we meeting up the week at the moment.

Just to make sure everything is ok when the show goes out.

I'm actually with the guys on the evening that the show goes out so there's me and another producer both sitting watching the show with the guys and their family just know he's been through that whole process because it's quiet enjoyment in your head on TV it's quite a big thing and I want to talk about Julius II just before I do she's due to the top but there's huge from a female audience for the date of the magazine suggested is a female if you heard that in your time in the sense that it's true Crime seems to appear a bill to a female audience for definitely definitely 51% of

Women you know that's the first time.

I've heard that is right, but I think it's a few things from research and anecdotal I think for some women.

It's a kind of knowledge is power situation facing fears arm yourself with knowledge whether that actually kind of meaningful play out.

That's stuck on the motivation.

I think women of very generally speaking quite empathic women enjoy a human interest stories stories are about relationships and very very powerful the most powerful human interest stories.

You can get really sorry.

I'm looking at you.

I'm looking for front pages 9.

It's I mean it's got a lot of got pictures of you.

Got some pretty Halloween looking at pictures of people.

There's a reference for a real life Hannibal Lecter

That is a danger of slipping slightly into some exploitation here I mean throughout the magazine.

It is very very we we do everything from investigations into prison reform to gay panic defence to all kinds of different times now on the cover.

It does tend to be hard hitting and what we do with the main story pretty much always is off the back of a new book or podcast about a big well-known or well-known case that people are interested and they know about a fascinating and it's maybe a new angle and you take on it.

You know all we can do is do that sensitively as possible to think about you know from a source of technical point of view heads sells pictures and then also in terms of the victims families.

We try and be as on-site as we possibly.

When talk to an array of people from different charities and organisations, so we we we try to balance what we no worries fascinated by with being as sensitive as we can so very different mindset presentation approach to the other titles you edit Hughes titles.

I mean heating Bella our patients are very popular as an editor.

How do you get yourself from one mindset? We think about what does heat one to another which is better to another altogether which is where your you know you're worried about sensationalising the horrible illegal stuff.

I mean it's ok.

So I got two great teams around me so it's not just me.

Obviously there is some kind of crossover in a way and Times of kinds of having a

Thanks for what your reader's one and how to execute that I was another country.

What do over the loud it's a lot of front pages and it's impact will stand out the news about why women are interested.

I think women just love human stories.

They there's something about the way women communicate if you get two women sitting together in a pub.

They'll be telling me.

How did you hear about this happened to sew and sew and their next door neighbour get two bikes instead of going to someone like you know that we could character or is there some sort of like school scoring number in things to do with a sport so women like talking about emotional drama and and and the tragedy of real life crime takes place doesn't have dedicated cromapol still yes.


We do when it's a huge part of what we do on the show before it since the Leveson Inquiry the relation between press and the police is much faster than it used to be used to actually years ago the police give you a briefing a great access and contact them.

Do you find it harder to those relationships?

I think even longer ago than that.

I think that the police became much more formula than the way they deal with the Press And A lot of lines have been drawn that the actor that it was when I was starting out as a reporter.

What do you think so? Yeah? I got that definitely is it? Is it when you are in the world of you.

Don't think it's that what you doing anyway.

It's not illegal, but when you're doing that sort of thing were there journalists will contact you trying to get to the real story.

Yeah all the time.

So even though you getting I didn't contact you by Jonas all the time because everyone's looking for their later stuff was going out there who is doing this is special about the food stuff.

I tell me I was getting contacted as he found in recent years the police partners whatever are Leveson Enquiry into allegations of police a lot more formal and more stuff and put a barrier between the actual story and and journalists haven't seen as much I'm kind of away from that kind of stuff.

I'm allowed to just be creative and get on with it and kind of get dealt with by other people some rock.

And when you're pitching thinks the Channel 4 do you find it basically? There's a lot of connections you have in an old world where you're trying very hard to persuade people who are ashamed of what they've done.


Spent time high bars that you have to go from being people who weren't thinking they can be in the public domain to actually go in the pub, but we had to persuade them it takes time you know trust build up because so you know on the first time.

We met all the contributors.

We kind of said to them.

This is an opportunity to change it for others know that's what this is all about all 3 contributors have taken part in what makes a murderer of all got they all want to help stuff for the future with other kids and other stuff that they see going on right now.

I mean there's no one better to tell these young kids are out there doing these horrible crimes people that have spent 43 years away every 43 Christmas is that he was away.

He regretted giving meaning to listen.

Yeah and like giving that back to the kids are out there doing all these crimes.

That's how we can really get changed.

He's got loads of stories in the resolution going to be checking out about 30000 months.

There's a few others in the market.

They been around a long time and a little bit old fashioned if I may say so busy old Mercury crime true Detective process by which you look at the data.

You look at you know from your readers heater belly.

So there is a gap.

There is a market in the gap as you know I think it was that kind of explosion in the area, so you know as we all know it kind of started with making a murderer and the podcast serial which obviously had millions and millions of Spain is growing all the time we now have sky crime channel.

We have loads of dedicated channels.

It's just grow and grow and actually it is interesting.

What time is saying about it becoming more minutes? I think as it's become bigger and bigger people are becoming a bit more thoughtful and thinking how can we make our output more me? How can I How can we help people and for example? There are a lot of podcast as a new one by the Dutch police are trying to solve a cold Case yeah.

I'm doing it as well as open source in Australia and it covered a cold case and actually it again so much traction week two weeks.

That's life week to eat and actually now the guy on trial for that murder which was I think a 1982 murder so that that podcast has actually led to a potential conviction.

If you think I think we are actually talking about at the moment.

We're just trying to work out the best kind of podcast because there are so many different ways you can do and who we might look up within the rest of the business internationally.

I think it'd be better for every cross-country.

If everyone was out here and Dad see what's going on.

That is all we have time today my huge.

Thanks to all that gets to the Davis is editor-in-chief of crime monthly underworld TV and Alison Phillips is editor of The Daily Mirror from Katy French the editor of The Basingstoke Gazette and also James mitchinson the editor of The Yorkshire Post next week.

Thanks for listening.

Thank you.


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