Read this: A right Royal PR disaster
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BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 it's the story of the decade I don't you think Harry and meghan's bombshell announcement and it raises so many juicy issues for the media show I appreciate the Republican some of you might be reaching for the office which at this point stop don't do it.
It's not the only topic for today.
Let me introduce you to our guests in is executive editor at the sun at the man who bears significant responsibility for this royal prices down.
Hope you got this on your conscience the last Tuesday night.
You break the story with the words on the front page of the off again Prince Harry and Meghan could move to Canada for 2020 and ditch hrh titles after quote feel sidelined surely the biggest good for your career, which congratulations and get you weren't even in the UK no, I was at home on my parents couch in Wellington New Zealand trying to deal with a terrible time difference and also.
A little bit nervous at that point because number one worried that Harry and Meghan we're going to release a statement before we were able to break the story which one point was room and also worried what if I just have the spectacularly wrong and to the middle of the night when it broke on the sun, so what did you go to the time difference thing first thing in the morning when the statement came out ok? We're going to get the answers to hear that you're very welcome to tell sources that will get to that journalist and author Robert Hardman is a daily mails and correspondence royal expert as I see it how I see it.
So, what do you know about queen queen consume he consumes very broad section of the papers plus the field Horse and Hound and racing posters first port of call.
Would you read dancer in a paper edition of The Sun deliver to her door or is she more likely to be a digital subscriber when there's elusive whether it is safe to say he is old media and we'll have read the paper version that resigned or not.
I don't know but I think that would have been a red top rather than website to listen to the show simply don't know what she doesn't is a textbook PR crisis and as luck would have it.
We have with us Chloe Francis ex-director up for it now agency Francis spelt with two S's for those with Googling vigorously other search engines are available is in the fact that Harry and meghan's and outfit was supposedly masterminded by PR proof that actually it's too should now retired from public Life no.
I think that we've got more to do at this point probably quite a lot more certainly with.
Engaging the US Space Agency back in September which I think was already a shot across the bows and gave a little bit of an insight as to what might be coming.
I will talk to you more about that surely people said that this is like an episode of the Crown and remaster can't surely wishes the Crown was an exclusive drama on the service that she is in charge of director at britbox.
The Venture between ITV and BBC that launched in November for £6 a month you get what the marketing calls the biggest the biggest British box sets is a bit like the bunker Bob for November the biggest box maybe not the first to a literary work this morning the director general BBC revealed that the service will be expanded to other countries later this year.
We are free streaming services like iPlayer all four.
The hub at Sandbach pay on top of the likes of Netflix Amazon sky why do we need another one so doing something different to all of those other guys streaming is sort of a way of watching floods of people are moving to sow British contacts really underrepresented in that area kind of a wash with us if you like watching On Demand box sets in that way.
It's US series so but box is the largest collection of books that you can get anywhere.
It's really permanent so don't come in and out of there and a catch up window as they do on the free catch-up services from TV Channel 4 series box sets to watch them straight from the beginning to the end.
They don't really have any transmitted on TV they're just there and permanent.
Where is the ketchup services are linked to when they broadcast they go out after a period of time after the forecast for capturing.
You know it's 2 months ago.
Christmas a big TV watching season how many subscribers have you got now? So I can't tell you about subscriber numbers because it's one of the joys of streaming actually give out their subscriber numbers.
Is it because Disney's bobo you came on the show not long after he wants Disney plus and they were very keen to tell us 10 million subscribers in America on their first day.
So if you want to tell us makes me think that maybe have got loads of Disney Disney was never in our plan.
So that is a fact you can write but no we're really pleased with performance.
We don't talking to you know they are useful to an extent, but it's not really a back catalogue of Extraordinary IP but they've also got original TV shows when we going to see original content on britbox, so will be putting books on to the service this year.
I wish I could tell you about some of the projects.
We've got cooking.
Why can't you tell us what is ready but they will be landing on the original drama documentaries main but not exclusively so dramas comedies, but that's really what would be commissioning original got much rupees.
Is it no I know it's not very good who's paying revenues and commissioning for every producer going so let me just get so how you pay for me the shortest and most of the streaming services like Netflix isn't possible yet.
So you know the long-term strategic play from both BBC and ITV but we also have our own production company so ITV Studios BBC Studios all of production Communities that we Commission from what sort of demographic you putting your original shows at the young intelli terms people were you know in the main 25kw?
40 bit younger, what were you seen in as you were saying we want to book in the States and also in Canada so that's a plus for Harry and Meghan and those are really really mature streaming markets and the people coming to the service there tend to be slightly older.
It's a great second wave of mainstream viewers the you know they are tend to be slightly older and that's a great fit with the content as well.
So within the UK Originals probably younger demographic but if you look at things like a back catalogue of everything from Fawlty Towers to you know amazing bigserial.
I don't like Downton Abbey they've got really mass appeal so I kind of huge swath of people that are coming to streaming a bit more mainstream.
I've got to sign up to this Robert
Everything I need to see sounds like is under One Roof options and you feel like you know you need a hell of a an offer to pay for another subscription a lot between myself and my son who's 12 and so we cover quite a broad spectrum of TV stuff.
I think that we can get quite a lot to watch isn't it? Is it ITV cause a shot and it's something that most of the cash is that right? It's ITV is majority shareholder internationally as a 50/50 joint venture actually so in terms of running the Brand and the business.
We do that together but in the majority investor variety you think if I had to be made new episodes of love Island available early and exclusive box you might be on something but why would I say we do that because I left it for bedtime.
You get some ITV2 there's no reason to prioritise you a straightforward competition between what's good for ITV on britbox.
What's goodbye to visit Russia broadcaster model on linear channels and then on ITV hub catch up service which works really well for those premieres of osho's the window much.
They are available is pretty type transmission and 30-days and picked up pretty much will catch-up services leave off and as we've seen in u-know.
Lots of those is not just a shiny big new Originals that get people there sometimes you know the new battleground as much for the friends and Seinfeld and back catalogue that people are going back in and really enjoying and that sold Only Fools and Horses you know we have got a queue between the BBC and ITV huge sort of treasure House of other sorts of things so it's a real a real mix of the to the very recent and also the much-loved kind of classics.
Operation kangaroo which is an attempt an idea to learn something a bit like this several years ago over a decade ago and that was eventually blocked by the Competition Commission since their Netflix Amazon Prime video Disney plus have launched into the ether.
Do you accept that britbox would be more effective at hoovering up subscribers if it be launched when kangaroo was muted over a decade ago you soon actually.
I think you know we will gutted we didn't get ahead of some of the major kind of giants in streaming, but I often talk I think we've got late mover advantage which is the market knows what it is and people what telly on the internet was so and that's a really difficult task you know the time that would have been better for you.
Please come with me.
Thank you very much older streaming service Dad we approach this program.
I ask you about your computer you got your parents living room and you tell us who told you now.
I can't obviously I mean what has fast over the past week and actually it shows the fracture within the royal family right because you have Harry and Meghan and the Sussex team accusing Prince Charles house sources of Buckingham Palace Kensington Palace then you have those guys at the palaces pointing the finger at Harry and meghan's American team in other than know but what shows the breakdown in trust that has caused this move mechanics at school, but not the origin of it has it come to an email WhatsApp and message.
I think it was a message originally.
I think it was Facebook actually one of those social networking services, but I'm very trusted contact and one point that I did want to make as well.
Is that some people are so what did you bounce Harry and Meghan into heavens release the statements and actually I first went to Harry and meghan's communication circuitry with the story on December 28th Sarah Latham Bomer Floyd's very accomplished woman and a great job and clearly didn't want me to run it you this story with this quote to her on the 28th and early version of the sorry.
I didn't have all of the details that we ended up at that point put it this way there wasn't much help coming and so I worked on the story 14 days, but what I just wanted to make clear as people who is staying over the song in some ways to have forced Harriman into it's like no, no you had 10 days you had 10 days.
We could communicate with the Queen with Prince Charles you could have shown them the statement you eventually going to I just
This Media environment 10 days is a long time to talk about the Mechanics of the story that you took to Sarah later on the 28th of December was it materially very different to the one that you eventually ran in other words the story get a lot stronger by the time it was on your face story got stronger, but the main line of the story that Harry and Meghan were permanently moving to Canada I talk to her on the 28th of December we had some robust conversation, but you doing tonight, but I felt I needed to work at more to get some more meat on the bones of the website ao.com and there's a whole section about their and media relations at policy stories that may be accurately by Royal Correspondents are also often edited or rewritten by Media editorial team to prevent false impressions the basics of having them know I'm in my school how I see it and see if I can see how they may see some of.
One day in the paper for Manhattan see how the beam refracted if you like through social media which is turned into a very polarizing Force but no ice editorial is is based on what the report on the ground as they did they really interesting and you want to sync between what correspondence report and what the headlines and that was their distinction.
Do you get approval of headlines across the street to be a fairly straight demarcation line substitute headlines reporters reported.
No, I think we have great success everyday people in Germany but no wee wee these things are often produced in very very tight circumstances, but we?
Go to great deal of effort to make sure they are the substance of the most credible and get it before I bring in front of Dad Harry Meghan said they would drawing for the Royal rota the system whereby during this take it in turns to attend a function shampoo live reporting how would not having access to them via the Royal rota hinder you wouldn't get a day today.
Look at what they're doing but I think they're mad personally because the Royal rota actually provides royals in this country huge protections and being part of the Royal rota.
System is why for example the newspapers have this gentleman's agreement in place with Kate and William for example not to run pictures of the children window out privately, where is there any public event in agreement that they will be photographs so to me what this is all about is Megan as used to Hollywood coverage, Hollywood coverage from the publications like the Hollywood reporter and variety is glowing.
The journalist don't push them particularly hard.
They often get a look at copy.
You know she's used to be on the cover of Vogue and Harper's Bazaar she doesn't want the screw to me that the UK press and use is provided and I believe is a publicly funded.
Royal family we have to provide that's good, then.
I'm not part of the Royal rota, but I have been covering the family and even some stuff around that but again I think and now you at times.
We have to hold this family to account just so we have to any other problem.
Do you know if your source who came to you on Facebook has have you been in touch with assault course has a sauce give you more information about needs more stories and son hopefully and you know your sources been confronted by Harry Meghan don't think so the only source of this curious website sussex.com what do you make a profit review with this specific Media relations section and it's really detailed on the media.
It seems designed to wind up people like down woman.
I think I think what's interesting about this site.
Is that for something that came out as a saying that they wanted to step away quietly.
They haven't the site really does going to a lot of detail having said that it lists out the kind of Media that they do want to speak to you and it doesn't exclude but it does state that they want to make sure that they're able to pick and choose and I think that standpoint of you know there is a gentleman's agreement if you like or or I don't want to do that.
I mean they love Bryony Gordon telegraph for example.
Who is a columnist who goes to Frogmore Cottage and has tea with them as friends with them and Prince Harry goes on her podcast.
I'm sorry Bryony Gordon is not providing journalistic and she's not she's not critically examining gym wear that what they're doing with their money.
What do what do?
Which you used to do that from your acceptable you're not for a through? It's just not the way constitutional democracy.
It's very much for the pr crisis because it seems to me that after the screaming Kate there was that time is tremendous control of the public narrative and it's all gone to the pieces since then Prince Andrew Chloe when he faced questions about his relationship with his PR strategy was to do what turned out to be an absolutely disastrous tv.
Interview with Emily maitlis and Newsnight how do how do Harry Meghan now fix their own crisis crisis making well? I think it's interesting that you bring up the Prince and the paedo storyline because I think that has been overshadowed quite significantly and have a
The times I am with a story which is a very very strong feelings on this because without newspapers The Prince and friendship with Jeffrey Epstein would never have been revealed.
It was the News of the World why was working at the time in 2011 that seem to crack team and spin weeks and weeks and tears of thousands of pounds in a picture Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew walking together in Central Park so I'm sorry to somehow try and say that the newspapers have not responsibly and appropriately cover the Prince Andrew scandals Andrews I don't think it's nonsense to say that's been overshadowed.
I think at this point we stopped talking about Prince Andrew and talking about now, but we stop talking about that because this is me which is much about him a lot more to come and let's be honest as well.
He was forced to step down from his role as as a as a public SR well, I mean the concert.
As a result of the media coverage of that story have been fast and significant.
I think that this story is them stepping away from that limelight voluntarily but looking at how they can control that narrative right now is your advert for what would you say crisis management? They take control don't think where they're going with it and their approach to their can I have the charity aspect to the things that they want to communicate and to taking it a step away from the conversations happening even today with her.
You know had happened that the legal case etc and looking at it at a different level.
I think that they have gone through a lot of scrutiny that hasn't felt like it's protective hasn't felt like it.
Casting and their best life back line and they decide who gets invited to work with these people on a daily basis and huge mistake because the way that Hollywood be companies work is to treat journalist as the enemy and to not work with the journalist and to bypass the genus and to bypass the tabloid Media were British people tend to be much more sensible and understand that actually tabloid or the Daily Mail or mail Online consider narrative and sit in a ginger before you put it down there are some people would say that actually this is a young couple who have been hounded by the paparazzi lost their privacy who might have public duties might be funded by the taxpayer but who find themselves completely Natalie bullied by British tablets are not say user.js by British tabloid culture and they would say that.
You're not playing the game well.
I would disagree with Dad and I would say when you look at the coverage of Meghan and Harry when they into the royal family photo of Megan when she entered the royal family I mean that day wedding day the cold country came together the media attention towards making was nothing but positive and actually the sun Rose and editorial say this is incredible.
We've got this mixed-race woman.
She's going to be a breath of fresh air she's going to the monarchy win the criticism came and I don't like it, but it's when they were waiting and political issues like climate change at the same time as taking for private jet flights and 11 days and they didn't like that if you look at the Sussex royal website now conceded that they're not going to fly private jets anymore Robert made a different Robert Hardman for the Daily Mail isn't there a generation point here the statement which the website they put all your stuff out on Instagram is the people who are basically millennial as they are don't need journalist to communicate with the public as a generation ago for instance the late Princess Diana
Clearly it's strange but I'm in the fundamental role of the media which is to hold authority to account specially unelected authority like monarchy.
That hasn't changed one bit and there's always been a very clear the line between royalty and celebrity most members of the royal family have understood that journalism should be it should be ridiculous and cutting it should be naughty and inside affectionate and analytical know those are the words of the Duchess of Cornwall when she was addressing the the Press Club back in 2011 as someone who's been through the most appalling Media treat a time but nonetheless could see the read that the way the media works in a free Society and accepted and cheese I think of a good example of a member of the royal family who have taken the rough with the smooth and actually is a much-loved national public figure and I think from the very outset with Harry Meghan age difference way of doing things you could go right back to the wedding day itself on the wedding day.
Duke and Duchess of Cambridge Kate Middleton when she walked up the aisle they invited the Royal correspondence to the service at Westminster Abbey on the wedding day of Harry and Meghan the Royal correspondent at the other end of the call so we talked about all of this because they feel and Harry Prince Harry said in his statement October that he saw what happened with that have with this talking about a tablet cultural issues directly do you think it's morally defensible for paparazzi take pictures of a couple on holiday.
It's all to do with where what when how I mean if they've flown somewhere on a private jet having just giving a speech saying don't don't fly then.
You know there's a legitimate protections on this.
I mean I was the record when I'm old enough to be in response during the Diana days and there's no question that was founded she was treated.
Calling me at the time.
I was the Telegraph correspondent and used to see some of this stuff and it's just it looks like another world when you repeat that hasn't happened with the sussex's but then the Moments for example one of the things that I really cool response while summer is on the Duchess went to Wimbledon and the sitting in was quite clearly a public space and members of the public and the press when was the Public Order not to take photographs offer on their iPhones I can understand it's irritating us sitting and watching tennis people taking your photo, but this is what herb goes with the territory and again.
It's blowing that line between royalty and celebrity.
I think you know they were coming to understand that but I didn't really give it very long and now they decided they vote with their feet and ask about the question and pepper actually because in 1987 after the death of Princess Diana Mail front page saying the price of the daily mail mail on Sunday and even said it announced last night that it will not in future purchase pictures taken by the paparazzi.
This is a very severe rather rather who's the father.
And it went on the Daily Mail general Trust plc said I am and always have been an admirer of Diana Princess of Wales and the Protector so far as they could against her powerful enemies in developmental science of outrage.
I'm instructed by editors.
No paparazzi pictures of to be purchased without my knowledge and consent what happened, so that's still applies.
I don't know I wasn't on the mail at the time in the in the in the aftermath of Diana's death of that was very much a rethink and that's a Fleet Street ultimately make me look rough and brutal and almost about it is it's there to to to paint a picture.
What is going on with our first first family and there are moments where that you know there is a grey area and if we if we ever step the line then you will be punished if you go to America or you go just like I've been in Australia New Zealand you see lots and lots of pictures of the roles including Meghan and Harry on the front cover of magazine that the
Papers do not publish in this country because of the circumstances in which they were taken paparazzi pictures of those couples on holiday all the time looking Closer magazine in front of the topless pictures of Cape you do not see them published in this country and so Harry Meghan thinking I'm going to get more protection in Canada or the US is delusional so I mean I don't listen to this show what can expect immediate treatment in the coming months it will be absolutely fine as it always has been and will be truthful.
Just like the story was about their move you thinking to be flight to Vancouver Island very much very nice.
I don't want to be anywhere near the how's your parents react when you said I've got some news stories.
I'm afraid I'm not be able to have dinner whilst over here on the other side of the world that we won't be going on a walk now.
I think they should they should keep going with that mean and keep the communication channels open that's also.
Thank you very much indeed.
All I guess.
Robert Hardy the Daily Mail Chloe Frances found her PR agency and Mr Khan
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