Read this: Brexit's "done" - so what will the media talk about now?!
Summary: PodcastDownload MP3 www.bbc.co.ukBrexit's "done" - so what will the media…
BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 we leaving the EU brexit will be done it says Boris Johnson so what's the Liberal Media going to whine about what anime with the tabloids have to read about because it the truth about brexit being good for journalism these last four years.
It's all that all those viral videos so today planning for Life After brexit with you could say have done rather rest assured.
We are not re-running the 2016 referendum on today's show this is about it's effect on our trade.
Let me to Argos in rough order of how far they travelled to be here.
My penis is the Brussels correspondent for the New York Times and smiling pronounce correctly that one has really just asked him to get it right.
If I'm very pleased so could you give me what your role?
Martin is there a kind of a lobby in Brussels we spend all day hanging out the EU Parliament open get it a message from Michel barnier to tell you what's going on for an absolutely no stay away from the institutions and that physical and metaphorical stance towards covering the European Union covering brexit affect close but safe distance and they're really depends the role.
I think of the New York Times in the way, I see myself as a source of Insider outsider someone who who's not covering their home country or something that's so extension close to home affords you a little bit of distance and choosing a moment.
So how do you get the stories if you stay keep your distance from the biggest which is where the decisions being made? I mean I do talk to them.
I just don't go inside all the time and exactly what the carpets inside of a demoralizing is the UK correspondent for France 24 which is the French state broadcaster Benedict I'm guessing that the royal family.
Is it as the top of keeping you most busy in the last month has been the regime and menu I've had since 2015 really we had a few terrorist attacks unfortunately a lot of meaningful votes also we were told leadership turbulence at an election is she going is she not the Theresa May is a deal happening.
Is it not this is the vote This Is the Day protest Donald Trump but the royal family is of great interest so we are French English Arabic 24-hours a day and we do Spanish now for 12 hours a day and so there is great interesting many things UK and it is certainly HR reporting in both French and English on meaningful vote saw was supposed to be meaningful votes for the UK and not getting bogged down in a bureaucracy or red table.
He's got at the same time decision-makers watching it, so you've got governments and ministers and Industry I see you at the same time.
You've got people who don't know that much about whether the UK so you got to make it interesting been very very at times.
It's amazing be on location outside parliament and being on the receiving end most of the time from people not often for a while protected by the police, but that was changed when Anna soubry unfortunately was that very badly attacks me.
Yeah, I have had a broadcast interrupted now.
I'm sometimes getting used to being accosted my name perfectly pronounce on the street, so as someone who's half French half British this whole process has been extraordinary and doing a job as a presenter of on LBC James news this week that the Times is launching its own radio station that tweeting live as we're talking.
Play radio station of the year it's going to be a Break Free is to provide productive well-informed entertaining and useful discussion of the Radio 4 rival is there room for another speech network? I think the problem is actually yes, I'm back.
I don't know whether they get it right history suggests.
It will be a much bigger challenge than they realize a lot of newspaper people think that moving into radio is a piece of cake and then probably being is littered with their carcasses, but yeah the more the merrier as well, so it means that there's more job opportunities out there when you can't reply tyres of you, which can happen if you see is your biggest rival in LBC play my slaughter was Estate what you're probably be lucky over the years with the paucity of opposition longer talk radio continue manner of her, but soon as long as it's superb for Maya listening.
What's your strategy for defeating what we do different things you know Emma has to observe the B&B
Partiality and video is not the same on catch and it certainly isn't this and that you've started your newspapers is your showbiz journalist Express and we have here outside mcbookie who's Michael Burke we make those might makes right.
Would you consider giving a prominent remainer the following week? We would you like to change the readers now and again? It's not after a good movie and has a position you get a full time job years ago.
This would you like to know the radio station if you could just as a time set a radio station TV station is a little more goals in our own heads up.
We're thinking Express again.
I think there is room in the market for I think brexit is showing that there's a market for lots of different tribes these days whichever takeaway, so yeah, I think it's well.
Let's get into I want to try the next 20 minutes or so to understand.
How big is changing and where germs and goes now.
I know I know it isn't done yet.
Still a trade deal, but we are in a new phase out me Martina let me start with you editorial challenge because which eventually led to 40 because it really really really matters constitutional historic extremely complex and quite a lot of the time not much happens.
I mean that's totally true and I've had such Sympathy for the colleagues for the
SN Brussels just trying and of course for you guys here in the UK just trying to keep telling the story in it also use the service to the public and then try and tell them why this is the last time when you don't really actually know whether it's different that last time and you don't know what the next time.
It's going to be like and I think I believe it's a different nature of Challenge for international newspapers cover because we don't have a captive audience.
You know our readers.
Don't necessarily or the desperately need to hear about every twist and turn and brexit so again while we've been doing live in here live briefings rather we call them these days of of brexit brexit days covering the news specially from London sometimes from from Brussels to we've also just had to think so hard about how can we cover this in a way that they bring humans in that helps our readers relate to what's going on here and brushes and is explanatory in a way that.
Patronising make your editor.
I think it's fair to say mentor Hugh whittow said in 2017 is for additives and it said he said in 2017 that the referendum result demonstrated beyond dispute.
It was the Daily Express which had been all along the architect of an editorial campaign which brought about a dramatic political victory, was it expressed on it? I think he's a little bit whatever it was about 3 months before I joined in about 2010 when they decided they had a meeting with the political editor and the readers clearly weren't big fans of the European Union so they started to run a referendum within a few weeks that had 400500 thousand-pound coupons in the paper because there are very old fashioned readership home.
We were then and we live down the street.
So when you got about half a million readers saying they want a certain thing.
I think you're onto something there and from then on it.
Just do exponentially and I think it did suddenly I think to start with people that David
Express leave them over there, but then it did Pro and I think we did catch the public mode and as we saw from the referendum and then the election result that's what the word for prior to Richard Desmond was very personally devoted to the task involved with the thing with that is he went along with what the readers sit and all that was all this idea that he set up there and is Ivory Tower we're coming down and then every now and again the edict issued where you have to write this tour you have to write that I never experienced that and he would always listened to his readers because he's a businessman, and that's so that's where the money so if you're not going to do something that is not going to bring him the money so in impure in Commercial sense, Richard Desmond knows what he's doing.
So it wasn't it was the readers that pushed it.
We won't push in the how do I that's why you got a couple of questions about it is really interesting I remember the last general election the brexit party page you huge amounts of money for what the trade was a wrap around you no more.
Get me any winning know how much they charge 2 how to charge that privilege.
I don't know the figures of the behind that but I think there was a decent amount of money.
Spent there and a few other newspapers as well as yourself Nigel Farage did ring me a couple of times to to do those deals.
You can trust me.
I knew that I'd be working with cubic in the UK days as well.
Sorry he wanted straight answer straight away and we organised what's your pitched as an Express editor to remain voters like James how do you get to pick up a copy Express I think it's someone like James needs to read every single type of newspaper anyway to get a broad idea of what's going on.
I think it's interesting we did we did some panels with our readers and you think people read a newspaper in a certain way a lot of these people all of them Express readers harder than very educated people.
Bovine readers of the Express they hadn't really noticed how strong we were on brexit people read newspapers in a totally different way and I think I can pick up the mail I can pick up the mirror I can pick up the garden and I can I can see why I read it cos I'm interested in what they're saying so I think you need to be read reviews that do challenges in today's Daily the daily the first reference that is until page 5 indecent for sales in terms of it doesn't give you a big spike in sales for 18 the running backwards race of Fleet Street it's Lord everyone to hell but they're also called labouring under the illusion that it's over which was the most interesting questions.
How you fulfill your responsibility to those readers reality begins to buy and it bears no resemblance at all to what you promised them? It would look like I thought you might have to keep to stick the journalism has been great for your career and get stopped for selfies in the street on the way here.
I've got the best selling book in Waterstones at the moment and Andy podcast Galore but that's just a coincidence it still baffles me Sophie rallying points in the British Media for people who simply were not responding to public opinion, but he journalism giving the public the information.
They need to make informed decisions, so what's made of proprietorship asking informed readers what they thought about things and then in Dorset Prejudice is every time and you're right.
It's a brilliant business model polarizing debate which is using the midi does I mean is LBC
You're not charging over 0% in its successful all the things that some people polarizing debate you got your show in the morning Nigel Farage one in the evening reasonable moderate Balance Centre grandpa very very important point because I think I'm the reasonable Balance Centre ground and under the shifting of the Overton window in British politics does create this sort of your not mad with self-doubt when it comes up.
I am actually speak to people ask him what wto terms mean.
He tells me then Andrea leadsom or Ann Widdecombe in the Sunday Express try to call them about how they know more than Pascal Lamy and I just said that as the centre ground and think you know what the guy that used to run it goes a bit more about it and we'll come down and that for some reason has made me a standout in British journalism at the moment and Frank it's a disgrace because when you put somebody who is the leader of the
Jacob rees-mogg, and you give him his own program you put Nigel Farage was tried unsuccessfully seven or eight times now to be an MP who is tonight not going to be you on Friday and I'm in pain anymore and who was saying this afternoon in Brussels when were moments away from the European Parliament voting through what will let's not forget the history.
This is the first time does an EU member at club of 27 other you member states is leaving and of course that was never planned.
So there is a possibility as a broadcaster when one chooses to put active politicians on a like that and I think one of the challenges what's been planned for journalism is viewers listeners engaging so I think that's been extraordinary and it's coincided with the speed with which we can communicate across the world The Intern
Whether it's tiktok now Instagram whatever is the latest thing is extraordinary and that is sometimes good sometimes bad for presenters for broadcasters for businesses in general right now said we which has become the biggest sample his career would have gone you know down the pan faster the eventually did but we have a responsibility we have to be careful how we use it.
I just want to pick up on something that you you mention which is engagement again our audience in the course.
We have many readers in the UK and around Europe region largest Americans this further process of what can we what? Can we write about and how can we really think about the angle with which we approach brexit to draw people in has been an incredibly fun right? I've spent honestly hundreds of hours and I've only been based in Brussels for 6-months hundreds of hours following brexit learning about you know the legal in Zante
The policy and the math of economics and all of that following having making sure that I am on top of it.
We are breaking news as I was going on but just as much time thinking about one story and I thought you know what time is my boss is in London my head is in London I'm in Brussels I just get on and off your son is in for your convenience thing and sometimes on a Monday returning not having a cup of tea and it's a brief moment and you're under the tunnel is no reception.
I just maybe sometimes and discreetly you know he's dropping what other people talking about I picked up a couple of news, so are you know cos there's all these underhero kratom British officials riding with the researchers hey you know what maybe I'll do a story about the Eurostar in this Tribe of Britain European shuttling between Brussels and that's why people love that people love reading about people and a real-life situation of people build careers around this connection between London and that's really interesting mysteries funny.
It's got a colour.
The travel about it, but the Wendy Mackay these expensive these are just a few weeks ago.
He had this spiritual attachment to the idea of impartiality aloofness distance and I guess the that would not be good for journalism is whether or not really a straight down the line trusted in kind of going out of fashion if you look at the eyeballs, it's James's monologue sometimes 710 minutes long way.
He takes people on aggressive.
It's loud that stuff.
That's really kicking off isn't it? I don't think that's true.
I don't think it's true at all.
Just to directly respond to them.
I would say that there is obviously every country and group of people have a culture and trends of how they consume the media.
I think there's space for everyone in this room is doing and there is clearly demand for it one way or another that's not going to sing as a good as a Bat but I would say is that based on the numbers of the New York Times the approach that the times.
For its readers serves its readers, we are going out not to know what day it is.
It's confidence in The Passion that gets them on the radio in the first place, so what I'm very surprised to have ended up associated with this asking the most simple questions we got this really trying to ask you if they know something a bit gorgeous because it becomes got the internet and they don't know you going to rain because you think they're not in order to read.
I think that what you had this is this is this building as well as the BBC possibly more dangerous than anywhere else because the commercial imperatives are very different from the BBC's routine responsibilities, but but
Example what we can't control our money our borders and our laws that started off on the fringes of British politics and it really should have stayed on the fringe is because it's meaningless what you've had now is reaching even cabinet and Danny street-level people still saying we gonna do it because we will be able to control our money on our borders and all good so you say what money and you end up having to acknowledge if you're being properly questioned whether the Today programme or whether it's Doris ringing LBC what money is less than 1% of national expenditure.
What laws well.
I can't name a single one.
We can't we can't controller board you demonstrate profound ignorance of the European Union constitution without a doubt the impossibility and that there is a trying to be impartial trying to be factual in a 24 of those are all facts that I was just saying yes well.
Yes, but of course there are the facts as we see them, so I think there's a degree in human.
And if there's anything that brexit has told me what does broadcasting it's not me.
It's interesting doing two languages because you're with a different presenter in a different place and a live bullet in the lead up with him and you coming back to analysis so I'm debriefing myself between the two languages and I think it's just tryna dress the presenter of The X question maybe I realise that there's something I didn't impartiality and there's a place for positioning a strong but there is a huge tendency in the new referendum and since then and in radio and TV in that thing about getting people crashing and having the year and the black and I'm sorry I don't want to shirk the obvious question just because it's awkward and her and asked you James before and when you say that phrase and whatever it is.
It's gone for the
Titles are responsible for that and irresponsible irresponsible because it works so you know I used to work on the I know what the readers alike.
I did the people and foreign fishing 350 million single person who didn't read the Daily Express UK map to me and say the Daily Express how I thought about things that were putting out these lies which untruths which I've never seen the responsible we report what certain people are saying who are the people who are our readers will be voting for I think some of the commentary may have got out of hand in certain places, but I don't know not particularly that I can think of in our titles.
I think the stories and put out there.
I think people are.
Enough to make up their own Minds unconscious unconscious bias on other issues.
Doesn't it? Reinforce people want to read these sailors what they already believe and maybe you're helping to reinforce and others are reinforcing my job is not to reinforce somebody's belief.
That's the difference between what time is the AliExpress titles in partial.
I think we present our newspapers and we present our news and what our readers want.
It's not well.
Not in that sense.
We try to be in in in as many ways as we possibly can of course we do matters particularly something like that, but I think like a newspaper people pay the money in the take the choice is riverboat as well again.
I just want to take a step back and I know we're talking about brexit, but I just want to bring up something else.
Maybe is is a little more about the leg the lasting Legacy of brexit for the media and perhaps broader Society Great that's so I'm I'm great great and I covered in Greek crisis for my previous employer and and one of the things that I learnt over the course of that very very long crisis which also accommodated in a referendum was that something intrinsically conflictual about the phrasing of the referendum.
You know there is no way about it.
You're going to be putting half the country against the other half in some way how you handle the stress of that is critical is critical in a social level sometimes families a split.
It's critical for your Newsroom it's critical for the role that your publication or broadcast her place in society and I think this is going to be a lasting Legacy of brexit the media Grabber with for so much longer.
There's going to be a trade deal.
There's going to be a future relationship.
It's going to be 10 years down the line.
Lasting Legacy will still be there had a kilos to visit downside is that the media also whether it's in Britain or let's talk about just the EU for example that most most concerned my brexit is that I think for some people we have not performed.
We have and I'm talking weird broadcasters.
Yes, it is.
I think it's going up because it was so low we were so low I think it's it's gone back up, but there's no doubt that we don't watch all the times.
I want the same radio shows all things like that.
We occasionally do you want royal weddings and things like that much together, so we I think and the whole issue of fake news.
We're not specifically then linking but we definitely have a tricky pass and there are going to be more more outlets the multiplicity of outlets and as we see with the announcement of the
Yesterday at the BBC the challenge is huge and what I would personally say about the BBC is be careful before someone destroys something because you going to get it back easily, but of course the BBC has to compete with the changing audiences and there's no doubt that there is there are huge challenges for we've all learnt something from brexit you lots of things for the next so troubling because the vote was cast by people who believe their lies would improve as a result of leaving the European the best thing that can happen to Britain is that they do because that not only has the division's that we are all very well aware of but it also a course is good for everybody when you're on the winning side of the losing side.
There is currently no evidence or optimism fact-based optimism for believing that it will they banned in the 350 million quid before that before the painted actually been professionally removed from from the boss of the Chinese journalists have now.
When is the American media just keep counting the lies that trump tells or do you see to somehow make them land? Do you think journalism is actually played the The Division in this country? No I think from the people I see when I'm going around.
I don't see this this nation at war with itself.
Yes people have fallen out, but I think sometimes we other play The Division Harry and Meghan become the Nation's everybody's opinion on but I'm up and all that it was definitely brexit.
I think you're not getting the story isn't any conflict and Drama I mean the whole situation because it's all nonsense until the last moment is it because I think everything's ok?
That's a real challenge because it's a conflict is too much more posturing earlier on is shows that you might not know this but it's been that thing when you've got to have the remaining you've got to have them and then fight and I think then that's on TV that's already that's where the division is healthy and it's also that gives an impression that we need to the thing is we wanted to be engaging and entertaining but we need to analyse and get round the posturing that will be lots more posturing folks in the divorce.
I love that was the end of the show everyone took it was equal value respect should be much much indeed to all my guests massively appreciated as James had the courtesy to mention.
We are on BBC sounds, just search and show and you can click and subscribe to the podcast about the same time next week.
It's listening and goodbye.
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