Read this: The big money bet on podcasting

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 podcast preserve of nerds and Fanatics a joyous audio garden where anyone with a microphone could wander aimlessly but not anymore because podcasting has become a massive cutthroat Media industry by big players and big money only Yesterday Bloomberg reported the Spotify had spent 250 million buying up yet another podcast production company to try and win you're looking at fresh at the podcasting Gold Rush and asking will it ever end of the industry from every angle from the big players to the Independent spirits that you can find if you look hard enough.

Let me introduce you to my guess is he managing director of something else the production company last week announced a deal with Sony music to make podcast with an interior that.

Before we do all that almost 30 years and she was the company and my big question for you is how much business do you think you've lost as a result of spelling something without the gym? I think I think it's been a business with a rather than a business partner is Nelson and something else is very famous cannonball Adderley jazz album jazz and it's a Jazz presenter.

So that's the name is Google in your company.

It's something an apostrophe is there they're not in the website because you don't have the journalism podcasts that your website is here.

I take it is the host of in good company at podcast where she interviews creative women take a welcome to the show and how do you get in the forecast forecast in my spare time and a couple of years ago.

I realise that a lot of conversations.

I was having with creative women or something that would make sense to share with a wide audience.

So it was just a different medium.

Play sharing information so different from kind of an online article about something like that easy to get to produce the stuff we can get into it later, but as you finally making a weekly basis or on a regular basis.

I've got a pretty straightforward and have a sort of media and journalism background so I think in terms of how to put together a story how to produce it.

I find that quite distinctive but I do think there is a fine art society editing a book that is going to be a success so I have someone else do it for me is quite possibly the UK's leading when it comes to the podcast in the hot pot at newsletter is one of the many places that you'll find her writing Caroline at welcome.

I've got a few other than the media show obviously obviously, what is the One Podcast that we can always go into right now at the moment.

I'm really into an independent podcast called the Irish passport partly because I've been really interested in the political stories coming out of them the last week with their General Election that just had and this show.

In about an hour, they made me understand a century of Irish political history word never previously know what it was about how they do that and Hotpoint news.com the adverts at the way I see it was ok.

Jerry Edwards is the founder of podcast Radio Hour podcast Radio Jerry it 12 hours ago 12 and a half something like that, but when you see out also the founder so that sounds and obviously the first thing you do is come and be with you, so we don't have an interesting spelling like Steve when the answers they were creative all we've done something you just doing the radio station what we did recognised over a year ago was that its booming and it's getting fat bastard.

Maybe you just before others did and an independent company so we're able to how do I describe this river to dip our toes and everyone pool radio station available DAB available where?

Right Cross London top to bottom left right and then we didn't say sorry actually says listening and sorry we're all through their and the idea is we think people making phenomenal content elsewhere now in radio radio stick it on the radio ok? We'll get as your business grows shortly, let's go big pictures beginning with start with you.

I want to get into the massive players now fighting it out in the world of podcasting this latest do I mention they spent a reported 250 million on a company called The Ring and over it about it for your hot pod newsletter.

Tell us more Caroline what is the ringer is a sports media company in America was founded by a regular bill Simmons who is pretty famous over there as a sports commentator and journalist he left ESPN and set up his own company which is the ringer the ringer does all kinds of coverage and they write a lot of articles that your videos on but they're best known for their podcasts most of which were about sports and Bill Simmons himself hosts one named after.

What is more popular but they also Pop Culture so they have chosen you know watching TV shows they had a very successful and about Game of Thrones and they just have done something that I think a lot of companies struggle to do which is not just produce one hit but produce a lot of hits and what's the instructions was so this is the fourth company that Spotify ball inside a year there.

Expenditure is now up to we think 600 million and they are just making a really big play to get more people listening to podcasts on their app Spotify has a kind of business model.

They would probably call it I have noticed a problem in that you know they've become ubiquitous for music streaming, but they don't actually make a serious amount of money from it because about 65% on every dollar goes back to the artists and their record labels taking him that much money from facilitating all of these billions of streams that we got into the Netflix

The show last week just as you say looks on the face of it quite similar to Netflix it feels huge user base with other people's content in its case music, but then it gets in to make its own content but isn't a key different Caroline she says Netflix is entirely subscription with Spotify still lets you hear that stuff and no charge, but just with adverts at what point if ever do you link Spotify mate? It's only available to premium subscribers at the moment.

I don't think that's very likely because they're very much in the reach as many people as possible game.

You know trying inculcate the Spotify podcast new habit in as many millions of people around the world as they can it could is one possible.

They could follow to monetization in the future and other is also when you pay for Spotify Premium you know here advert between your music.

They are at the moment as I can tell still running adverts on podcasts if you're a Spotify Premium user so there's the kind of monetizing and twice if that makes sense.

Where does Spotify rank in your view in terms of the other podcast platforms the way it looks at the moment the way it gets presented as it's a kind of two horse race apple has up until now being the dominant app distributor.

They don't at the moment make their own podcast although that is apparently on the horizon for them, but they are the principal way that a lot of people at podcast not least because he comes pre-installed on iPhones and iPads Spotify is often the average price of people who don't have apple devices.

You know if you're in an Android user.

It's a good and therefore very this kind of can Spotify overtake apple as the number one destination for people listen to podcasts.

There is something that's already happened in some places.

It's quite hard to research, but they're definitely you know shooting for the same market on all the mainstream platforms at the moment apple is the big.

I've been surprised.

I put it available on Spotify less than a year ago and already it's kind of surgery at the rankings in terms of what portion of listening to a different one of the other known as many people as possible to listen to it, but one of the platforms were so I need to start offering add money or easy way for me to monetize it that would definitely something else Steve your company is a story you know it's office in New York not already.

Open already has been out there this morning.

You don't look like a long way since 1991 when you start the cover is 500% of how you've grown in the past five years and what role podcast as played in that boom business.

We have three planks which audio social media and TV and frankly the social media Room TV bits with a bit 5 years ago we were.

Building out because the audio business was pretty much work for the BBC and there wasn't really much are the work to do and so the transformation has been really two things first development of a proper marketplace for ideas, so I see the BBC on the only ones buying shows audible on Spotify R&B in the States but also obviously for us and other companies like us to release titles director market and funding for advertising as you've just been talking about and so that's actually really transformative and so certainly podcasting within that space.

I'm in the past.

I say two to three years has been absolutely transformed it for us as a business to the terms you would deal with Sony music so it's not it's not a merger.

They got taken over coffee.

What's the deal has it worked with that yet? So it's not a merger.

They don't have ownership.

So so they don't know it's it's it's a partnership.

They are bringing funding to the table for our shows as well as the huge and very

Sony machine in terms of marketing PR Analytics all the different things or different leavers they're able to put on we're bringing obviously our creativity and ideas and we're coming together.

Hopefully create even more and pieces podcast not just for the UK market, but also be on to get money out.

So they giving you some cash, so we will both co and the podcast created and therefore will will come in the revenues that that come out of This podcast just done exactly the same way as you've only been talking about all the usual platform Spotify apple never rots one day be looking Monday so be looking to build its own platform.

I don't know I mean I mean I can't comment really on sort of what zone is grand plan is I know that's certainly what we're doing with them is about reaching podcast audiences wherever they might be so you know soon as we're concerned the plan at the moment is correct great great shows and reach lots of people and I think the other the other thing that sort of really cute.

Is really cool and the wider podcast market and I talked to her being a global marketplace for the other reason my podcasts have become so prominent my value around there is no problem is because of the value of IP inspect your property exactly that's only because I really had Robert Rinder on the show not long ago.

He's the boss of at Sony Music and the point that he made about Spotify was that Sony Sony a record company has Spotify exactly where they want it Spotify is literally paying millions of Dollars every hour to record labels in music royalties as spotify's deals with the record companies from signing artist directly so the only way for them to make money is to make the right content hence moving into podcast Spotify move away from music is something I think it's definitely yeah, and I think it's really smart.

That's only have chosen to do these partnerships rather than you know trying to build a platform trying to do anything in house their working with teams likely to you already know.

Already making hits it, so it's a they're not starting from zero basically.

They should have come in right at the end of the race to go through the tape and all the other major record labels excuse me also following the start to licence their podcast Spotify haven't yet seen any of the record labels following quite this same partnership strategy the bin some interesting Productions where record labels have teamed up with broadcasters to make a one-off series around a chicken a record or with a particular artist but that doesn't represent quite such as a teacher conversion financial skin in the game.

Did you see this coming anyone see it coming? I think if we were to talk about going back 5 years then no definitely not I think when we think about more recent times the reason we dive into it in terms of in terms of creating your own titles was because we

There was a market having a particularly because because the States is a year or two ahead of the UK and he can see what's going on over there and it's and and already obviously it's coming here but their growth is fast enough to the money and market is bigger there and use Netflix subscription and as for the following that model lots of people claiming to be the next Netflix have heard that next to become the world's number one in the audio market and by that he means taking on everyone including a regular radio and Jerry's we had at the top of Show yesterday launched a 12 hours ago.

Jerry 16 hours yesterday at midday to be honest.

I didn't get much sleep last night you if my little baby so I was up all night checking every hour goes out all the

Everything works correctly, what's today's relaxed over the BBC Radio 2 little baby.

Do you also have a little baby Bridges podcasting and regular radio mentions call podcast available as a dab station in London at the moment that plays nothing but podcast explaining the business rationale why you in it and just play podcast presenters and news updates, but there is a podcast The Running from top to bottom and that means we've got podcast programming as I mean a radio station that plays an audio file that we know as a song as you're listening to some but instead of that audio Barbie music it's now a Podcast episode we had to bring radio formatting to make that way so we don't just play it randomly but we don't just throw in the washing machine and see what order do they come out we programmed it when a style of listens and maybe listening in the day part 2 Monday to Friday been different for the weekend.

And we then contextualizing the presenter who is me at the moment in case you think we've got loads of sand in the same from Liverpool to London saying why you should be listening to the next podcast why you should be discovering that you know we want listeners station and we might be the first radio station in existence to save it to go and listen elsewhere if they like it because they're gonna trust us so much to come back after we go listening listening to you very attentively right now tell you what you got well right now with weight for a year without telling people who are yesterday was the big announcement and then we went on here.

We had our first episode and we had to pick this really carefully MTV first video clip and alienation episodes of talking with Robbie Williams about UFO is now we carefully picked one but we don't celebrities that doesn't work for us.

You know we wanted to be people who are recording for normal content in the kitchen for the same way we want listeners to find podcast because everyone's looking for the next podcast all the time now.

That's where helping with that when I trying to get in the way of companies are producing them.

How hard is it to set up a radio station? Is it safe to reply to when you get the introduction? Well, if I if I wasn't the businessman running this right and I'm not a businessman.

I would have to hire me to do it properly and I have been handed 2-piece blank paper and set design me a station and it was this time on my own time as a founder of the company and I thought that I could decide this and I was looking to podcasting.

I may fail podcast co-host of my nana previous radio station awake for tried to release 17 episode 2 celebrity names we were gay McKeon funny and maybe but to Radio 4 the podcast Wales but we just something we have to spend loads of our own money on marketing.

No one told you that no one no one talks about smoking and not in the same time see this in the marketing side of podcast again getting a hit.

Go is becoming more and more crucial and somebody spends their name on the States and a year ago before we launched before Steve knew what we were now obviously with Launceston to different game.

We now have a radio station.

What we have is reach for people that conversation go well.

They said do you want to put the David Tennant show on there and how much you going to pay and we're not so I said no.

I don't think so what we do in the Shadows having a go station right now.

What would you like? What's the offer that you are now paper up podcast to be on it, but we also charged podcast because that is where they save money and we don't take all of the episodes because we want them.

Let me make the state broadcasters deal and download.

We've got staffing costs on top of that to operate however in business terms.

That's not much too then have the ear of potentially millions of people now.

We don't have millions of listeners yet, but we have a potential reach through London and sorry a podcast or a platform doesn't have without running it down your throat so you're so quite a lot of advertising carrier crossword Caroline have been hearing this description of a new offer will it work? I'm I don't know who is out why I'm really interested in though is that podcast already have adverts in right all the adverts still in the podcast to play on the radio station research and development it depends what type of adventure mean.

We're talking programmatic digital insulation always talking Hoe Street always talking at a sponsor that pays for the podcast to be created instead of actually paying.

Set up the costs, so you don't have to record studio time the short answer is if it's High Street we talk to the Host first.

We do it on a case-by-case basis snow podcast the same we don't want to treat your everyday podcaster.

Who's got the most emotional incredible tale to tell or interview with someone who's not a celebrity.

We want to treat them the same as a program called podcast Radio I'm thinking is it an oxymoron do people listen to the radio say what that constant companion that sense of serendipity? Where is a listen to us because they know what they want and I want to listen to what they want where they want when they want.

I don't think there is a bit over.

I think the way that I can seem certain podcast as that I like having them on the background whilst I'm at home.

Kind of tidying up doing some checking in that replicates hi listen to the radio.

So that's how I listen to Radio 4.

It's going to turn on the morning and then it's on most of the day, but I also think of the appeal of podcast the fact that I can say ok, I've got

Shiny to get me to be I know I can listen to I the first segment or entire episode of the podcast have been saving for that time so I didn't podcasts and you can offer something on top of what radio does he can't have that flexibility podcast in good company.

Yes, so I said it up about 2 years ago and I run organisation for women who which essentially took to create and connect with women I realise that look the conversation as having behind the scenes were conversation that we really fruitful to share of people so basically just thought when I stick my friend in there and shadows with no hundreds or thousands of people that's based that's on this is you with the journalist and the author Jia tolentino.

There is a lot of like a friendship.

I think and I prefer just straight professionalism.

21 is listening and more recently to experience this as a thing and I find it really excited to give you an opportunity to participate in this matter campaign for free technically as well as editorial.

How big is your present at the production values you got the original I used to record data studio used to be the Show YouTube on NTS radio on online, East London radio station and now I do independence I work with a freelance producer but I do quite a lot of attention to the sound quality is very important to me that he has a studio like quality, so that was recorded in a kind of kind of soundproof room so this romantic vision that a lot of people have students listening to this show listen to the shares Have I've just using a mobile phone in the kitchen and you're not doing your nutting Steve is what you would say that wouldn't you know but the glory podcast that you don't need fancy technology.

I mean you don't and there is obviously a low.

If that's what you want to call but ultimately it's a really intimate medium a lot of listening to headphones and in are completely agree sound quality.

I think it's really cool.

I think you'll see that more and more now.

You know Big Show's are well-made shows the source of the area of the kitchen podcast this is I think coming to an end.

I approached me and want to advertise on the show and I thought you call a house read and I talked about their but then they pay me know it's all I think you have to have clear boundaries about what kind of things you wouldn't want and doors and how you do it, so I definitely I don't want her approaches me and I feel comfortable the sort of how do you get the shoulder suited what's yours one person marketing strategy and mechanism message me the biggest way that people do find the show the fact that I used to run and test radio.

I know found a lot of lessons that way but if I'm honest I don't do if I was to hear what you're saying about there being a huge marketing spend find love.

Because I let people find it organically working pretty well at the moment.

So what's the role of landscape with Spotify and he's mega companies.

What's the role of people start off as one man one woman.

I will listen this is genuinely the beauty of podcast and and some of the big big shows that come out of the UK and the US are you know single entity shows where someone is just doing a really great show turning really good money eventually morphing into Christ in different business.

So you know there's absolutely ruin the Landscape for everybody.

Let's talk about the big budgets and sometimes come with a bit where your podcast which is the one that you did with David Dimbleby audible which is a course at the company owned by at Amazon this is at the sun King which tells the story of someone called Rupert Murdoch and so the Fox Network was born came of age and 22 years later that network helped elect a president.

Rupert Murdoch intentionally created the audience then there were casting calls through a number of different elections and finally someone the audition Donald Trump doing now who's the president? What's the role that audible actually plays in the Amazon Empire something else, but it's not the centerpiece was just thinking about what you do.

If it would you think well that genuinely have no idea in terms of how old will I be in order boys is obviously Amazon's audio audio arm their relationship with us and others is the BBC Weather commissioning content they got massive budgets for the BBC and give you the only got decent budgets and I think the definitely changed the BBC is that people are older ones.

Have you know I have got decent budget? So they can spend on a bigger than you get his first yes Caroline what's your sense of order was role in this new environment podcast for audible specifically decor products.

He says there is there an audiobook platform but they use them as a kind of subscriber incentive.

You know if you've heard good things about the Sun came.

You might take out an audible subscription in order that you can listen and if you're ready and audible subscribe it on my add value for you say you consider keeping that subscription when you're cancelling other things.

I think that's it for now.

That's how they regarded podcast there's no sense that they are becoming a podcast from the BBC fit into this is wrong.

Not to mention the BBC sounds of a big player is it broadly good lesson if that's the money for independent companies or bad and dangerous because it can Crush the competition crashing anything yet? I think you know the reason a really difficult position when it comes to podcast they were in a prevented from really getting into the market property for a long time by the regulator.

Things that really accelerated away by the time that restrictions lifted and already the BBC has so many more boxes it has to check before it can put something out then and independent commercial can do about to the audience.

They're all the same in an upright with choosing between one of them equally you know we can't give the BBC Special handicap for all the things it has to be put in there as well.

So yeah, I think it's not a level playing field because it does advantage as a product and as a client is a client there fantastic.

They're still very important for us.

I think BBC sounds as a platform has challenges and that's especially because obviously at the moment most of the last podcast you here and there are only BBC One's ones that are made outside the BBC but I think it's great that the BBC is trying to replace within the global marketplace to finish.

Temples in one place independently play radio station to find new contents and we got a slogan Showcase and content and we have to do we have to decide where we going to sit we don't want to step on anyone's toes and I don't think people need to you know Caroline just many listeners.

No difference of they just want a new program final words of encouragement student audience to make it work.

I think recorded a few test episodes and then back to them and make sure that they are actually good quality if we put out and in terms of making money out of them just no that's why you can't do it tomorrow.

Oh, no, that's it for today.

Thank you to all of our guests Steve Ackerman is the managing director of something else with attitude.

Who is the host of in good company is the CEO and founder of podcast Radio and Caroline Crampton who's on the line from Liverpool is a journalist and writer for we are back at the same time next week, please subscribe to the podcast the media show on BBC sounds.

Thanks for listening and goodbye.