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Who sets the news agenda?…

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 who sets the news last week newspaper front pages were dominated by images of the process until Thursday when Madeleine McCann displacement campaigner said it was evidence of systemic racism in the British Media the Editors judge an update on a white child who went missing 13 years ago to be more important than millions of black people protesting around the world, so is that true it's one of the big questions for the media show that I was going to get into how the process of being covered on the ground and the role of activist as well as journalists and the difference between the two getting some of the footage that you've likely seen these last few days and when the stop and iconic images of statues being torn down sees, how do you keep systemic racism in the news, let me introduce you to guess Clive myrie is a BBC presenter and Fearne Cotton

Reporting on and off from the US almost 25 years and when you realise that the story that in America today is eerily similar to that you've been covering for a quarter of a century.

What's the governor ocean is it saddest is it regret is it to the exhaustion? It's all of that and a level of anger as well, because what you've seen over 203040 56 years is an attempt whenever the issue of racism and Prejudice in society is raised to change the conversation and normally that happens in the last 2030 years when they're demonstrations and there's a bit of violence that is not happening at the moment which I think is really interesting social media keeps it in front of us.

It's a combination of things coronavirus people at home.

They're not at work.

They're not diverted.

They can focus and we all know how the viewership of News programmes has rocket.

Because of this people are seeing stuff including a bloke put his full weight on the neck of a man, so people can focus secondly.

I think the argument that we should focus on the violence the looting whatever it's not getting traction.

Just simply not getting traction because it's been furnished by the majority of the protests have been peaceful and there is an understanding from a lot of white people that they need to speak up about racial injustice and you see white people all the matches as well.

It is difficult to divide and conquer.

No you cannot just say all this is a black problem.

Let's focus on you know the economy and money and probably because that's why people are focused on you go down to the square you go to Baltimore you go to New York you go to Australia you go to all these places Whites are part of the mix and I had a civil rights leaders speaking at the funeral George Lloyd couple of days ago saying he's never seen anything.

Yeah, I know we're going to get into the feeling of it.

It's omnipresent fantastic day when I'm pick those things over the next 25 minutes or so, we've also got lothian-mclean freelance journalist who writes for a month so there's ID guardian and the Independent going to come on to hear you've been reporting on the process and your sense of how at the British media as a whole has done.

Just give us will enjoy your experience as a freelance journalist when dealing with autism stories over the last few days, what they've been keen to hear from you on that leadership within the media and they want new voices he come from black and mixed heritage backgrounds.

So they want you to talk about what's been happening grand like you guys.

Do what happened with.

And also where the movements going to go but one of the things I noticed about this is not come first of all to mixed heritage journalist Robyn going to black journalists or black actually challenge with other people approached me.

They're already got two people on the list already within the system and although I have a lot of thoughts and I'll have to speak on this topic.

I do think that that's one of the problems.

I'm at the moment that's going on over the use of what happened on the ground and where the movements heading which we don't know yet.

I'll look forward to talking Adam Cantwell corners on the line is a co-founder of the Bristol cable.

That is a hyper local newspaper which is owned and financed by 2000 of its readers an atom with the Edwards statue, Bristol that sell very much and international news story over the weekend.

What do that do for your traffic and for your subscriptions? Yeah definitely a massive issue 4.

Around around the world and there's a really great reporting by other local outlets as well.

So yeah, that's it to them to the east coast is clear.

What is the executive director first draught that a project that seeks to fight misinformation and disinformation online so quite busy clear good to have you with us as well originally from Northampton station today and yesterday President Trump tweeted elderly man injured when he was pushed over by police in Buffalo at the video which has been seen globally could actually been and I grow an anti-violence the anti fascist movement Provocateur appearance of present to scan police Communications in order to Black out the equipment.

That is a conspiracy theory.

It doesn't have any Foundation when you've got the president of America spreading fake news.

I wonder whether you think it's about time to give up the phone in your career a very very busy for months and it's been a very very challenging 2-weeks anything when people talk about this information online.

I like to think about Russian trolls.

I like to think about low-level information, but unfortunately there's two weeks in a lot of misinformation coming from very high levels from police forces from politicians and the president and that really changes the game ok great have you will let me start with you on the big thing that you mention.

I should say that you know when we spoke protein pasta.

I know how seriously you take impartiality and that's a concert Sauvignon about to say and you're talking person you don't speak on the BBC having sex then I ask you the question which is about so much more social media and elsewhere.

Who do you think set the news agenda in this country? It's a combination of people situations and issues.

You know if a tree falls down in a forest it.

How does it become news because as a reporter and editor whose you know paying the report puts it on on the TV or the radio or in the newspaper.

I mean you know I haven't been an editor of a of a national newspaper that there are other.

The can involve can be involved in this.

You know it may be that you spent a lot of money on a particular campaign that doesn't necessarily appeal to the majority of the readership all the viewers out there, but it's important Paul royal the edge of the 10:00 news bless his socks.

He was willing to put one of the pieces that I did from the Royal London Hospital looking at the problems of the peak of the pandemic and the NHS dealing with that he was going to put that at the top of the program now.

It could have been argued that it wasn't in fact.

I'm in the minority on Twitter that this was all news this was about the peak.

This was about 2-3 months ago this isn't where we are now.

We should be getting out there and going back to work and Paul's argument and what we hadn't didn't have a granular look at how the poor men and women of the NHS cooked with that pic.

What it did to them psychologically what it did to the house.

That was not done by Paul decided that should be lead story and in fact.

It was only story and the response has been incredible for disclosure is something I work with very nice as well and 10 Tuesday afternoon.

He is possibly the most powerful Giants in Britain can you just take it inside the conversations that you have as a high-profile anchor a high-profile anchor news reporter from America as a family heritage from Jamaica conversations you have with Paul about how you're having a process.

Can you give us analysts as a flavour what you're saying to it.

So we will have a number of discussions concerning how we approach? What is not just a national story in America been an international story that touches people here.

There are obviously lots of black people hair loss of black people around the world are lots of people who are discriminated against and who are subject to racism and and Prejudice and as a result this.

The relevant story it goes beyond a particular Street in Minneapolis in Minneapolis it goes way across the world and my feeling yes, you will have people in America doing what happened on the day what this copper did how this man died I could bring something slightly different which is context the wider at the continuing problem of racism and Prejudice around the world but also the historical thread that links what happened to George Floyd to the civil rights marches back to the Ku Klux Klan back to slavery because that context is critical absolutely critical and I think that's being born out in the numbers of statue of white low trainers that are being pulled down now and the Debate that is going on around that Ian McLean and there are a lot of people listen to it.

Will say that if a journalist.

Impartiality is strong enough as it should be the place out the BBC their skin colour doesn't actually matter what you say to that what it does matter and I think the within these museums and BBC4 while actually and the problem is it's about perspective and thinking about these perspectives for example if you have a white genus and majority white Newsroom problem is some of the perspective that are needed in the context that was talking about they just won't and they won't think about it.

So it's like an angle on a story where you know Colston Hall statue of Edward Colston reporting on that as a white journalist, you might not see the harm or the first because you don't have the emotional experience and the emotional context that comes from the history of being mixed music and I've noticed that time again.

It's why there's mistakes made a headline reporting a while.

There was one recently in a major national news outlet that I won't name where.

John boyega comments on social media about racism or framed in a negative combative way at the same time the story about Seth Rogen and actor White actor went out who made similar comments and they were positive but if you're far more likely to unconsciously continue and perpetrating those messages if you from a black background or even a minor ethnic minority background that isn't back and it really does matter.

That's why I like the media is 94% white there's the nachos in its reporting.

I just come back to the fascinating history of unconscious bias in this impartiality in which you're talking about you.

You reported proton the protest in Bristol and the central task of the report it as I understand it.

It's a tell the truth.

What does attention there to you Mya is telling the truth about objectively and neutrally describing events at of emotional distance or about making clear moral calls.

For instance President Trump or the causes animating these protests in London about from centuries, I think now in this day and age the problem is that the idea of balance has become very skewed so we started like to posing things like the government for example and some like some place time is like a natural thing but also any messages that comes out of the government highly pasta, and I think of that messaging is subjective not messaging is like obviously opposed to what you're saying documented in front of you and video evidence or you were there and you know that is even if that's my part-time place you have to challenge that but if I don't like.

I think I was pushed say I go for latter definition.

I will call you tomorrow calls from first draught is journalism big enough to both the objective truth as the ones we tried to be impartial do things that an emotional distance and the moral Crusaders conversations in and around the world are the structures and the guidelines that we had up to this moment and I think the answer is no and we seeing you X people have to step down because of headlines are running op-ed that offensive I think it is the moment where Jonathan used to say we've not told this story correctly and this is not a time for objectivity and we need to make clear.

How do we stand against structural racism and that is very uncomfortable.

I mean I spend a lot of time in the BBC 10 years ago developing social media guidelines paralysed the last 2-weeks about what I could treat and over the last 3/4 days my staff of help me record.

Is a nonsense we need to have these hard conversations at this moment in history and I think if we don't then we really feeling a reader they were failing each other very powerful words clear as I probably start.

This is not a time for objectivity strike at the very heart of what the BBC is meant to be about which is impartiality.

How do you recognise impartiality which to the BBC is Sacred believe it or not what you say about the fact that this is not the time to be objective in the language that we use I think we've hidden behind this idea of objectivity and I think objectivity and impartiality in the idea of Two Sides to unpick that on this particular moment around this particular story and recognise.

What does it mean if we talk about this we can talk about what's happening on the ground but we just have this discussion about flaming make decisions about photographs to show which sources to talk to all of that you can do in a very important journalism, but I think if we say we can't say anything at this moment.

Play the service but I'm not saying it's easy absolutely not but I'm saying we need to have hard conversations in your dream.

Do you believe that the BBC impartiality rules allow you to say on the slavery was wrong.

Yeah, because slavery modern day slavery illegal.

I mean in the BBC is not going to not break the law the problem comes and then because I've been referring to this.

Is is the rhetoric in the language that can come out of that idea of racial superiority.

You know Donald Trump is a classic example.

Can I call Donald Trump a racist as far as the BBC is concerned as a presenter know should I be doing that? No other line because you've got it because I am supposed to be an independent guide to the news for the viewer my job is not to.

My opinion, I'm simply a site through which the public can make up their own Minds based on the expertise of a correspondent in situ or an editor or something like that as a presenter.

I personally don't feel that I can do that.

I'm under the rules of of the BBC but as I say the problem for me my come in dealing with the language that can come out of that that sense of white superiority and that's that's where the difficulty might be I mean I did a two-way last 2-days ago with huw Edwards on the 10:00 news trying to frame what the protesters argument was in relation to the coverage of the looting and the dating and the attacks on on the police that took place late on on Saturday I put forward Boris Johnson's argument in his in his address that he gets to the voice newspaper.

Which was that he understood the cold reality of racism and discrimination in society, but I then put alongside that the feeling that some investors believe you focus too much on all that which was a minority of the events that took place on Saturday it was a small part of what happened then you're not discussing the core issue.

There wouldn't be on the streets of there wasn't racism so that's the key issue everything else.

Is is is is chaff frankly particularly of the right to take place afterwards are a minor skirmish.

I'm going to park if you don't mind me what you were saying that unconscious bias.

Will come back to its.

I know you've all got strong views on it.

Let's move on to the specific to the project Adam can't recall your face in Bristol someone actually report for yourself.

What time have you taken at the Bristol cable in how you cover this enormous local story.

Video of the Statue actually coming down we took the deliberate decision to cut out the faces of the individuals that were taking part in the statue down and I think that what that indicates is that we actually made a deliberate decision in a way that journalists and editors doing always and I think it's not perhaps controversial to say we're not going to aid for example of the investigation of pursuit of these individuals and I think that's an implication of what we think is an organisation is the significance and legitimacy of the protesters.

Why you why you protecting criminals from you know you got this fantastic footage first hand stuff.

Why are you protecting criminals because I think whenever I think whenever journalist make a decision.

What to include a what not to include there's always some form of censorship going on and it comes back to what you were saying about who you select to be a voice or a source in terms of this particular incidents like we don't think that I'm a nice person here at least is that we don't think that though warrants further investigation for this act and actually there was a bit of history.

It was a bit history in the making the Democratic or the so-called democratic process had been absolutely exhausted and in fact despite their casual use of the word violence by some Media outlets with regards to what happened recently in particular this protest actually there was no violence that happens on Sunday in Bristol it was to be a petty actor criminal damage from citizen journalist.

That particular incidents that was myself on my colleague were there at the moment and pages again today, but in in being on the front pages.

The media is kind of moved on to something hasn't it from the issues behind the process and it's dead as we gather for and against debate about the statues and this is exactly what the media doesn't it's what I was saying earlier about how they changed the conversation.

I do actually think what we witnessing right now is the attempt to change the conversation even if they don't realise it and this is the problem is when it's a bit of unconscious bias and statues and much easier to report on a special anaesthetic discussion then diving into systemic racism and really I'm picking that which would need hole vertical they need that in the same way that they posted on coronavirus continue rolling coverage with new seems devoted to it.

If they really want to get into the black lives matter Protest the aim and the whole the way they feeding to be entitled to.

Statues almost like an easy headline, but it's also because you say the in the cycle and special with digital news being so much before and now it moved on so quickly so myself that we see on Twitter like in the morning or afternoon, but we forget that half the rest of the country is moving out completely slow pace and I think that's also why if you look to the headlines on Monday they were one of the garden had big defuse tensions as racism protest escalate the time had state flags must face Justice police in the process in that like the day.

I was talking about Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein in the mirror was talking about Madeleine McCann so all those journalists protest there a second weekend a protest to be obsolete and you already said basing way you look at the BBC News front page right now.

I think only one story on the most read and there's none on the top read the singer.

Related to even slightly to Black lives matter is Winston Churchill hero or villain and that's already moved on a completely different tangents.

Oh, yeah, it's it's taking the discussion away from what the focus should be with you about 2 mate.

Yep really interesting point this I think what is critical for responsible journalists frankly is that they keep the story alive cos it makes sense to keep it alive because the statues being brought down a part of the whole argument in terms of discrimination and racism.

It's about putting things in Context these people aren't pulling down Edward Colston statue for a laugh.

It's part of the same dynamic.

I mean I've got in front of me now.

I just thought I looked this up because I remembered it in about 2015.

It's a geography book from the United States for 9th graders and it says the Atlantic slave trade between the 1500 and 1800 brought millions of

Workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations workers, he does not refer to slavery.

There is a huge and knowledge deficit out there on the part of the public about the link between slavery between Colchester and the marches over George IV death what we need to do as journalists is keep the between the two alive figure Clive isn't it about which has got baby pictures and which ones that makes headlines and which one Gravesend what goes viral absolute in an era of a water retention and tensions inundated the fact is if you have pictures of violence and protests.

It's going to be the headlights isn't as simple as crude as that is absolutely and you started the program by asking you know who makes news and at the end of the day.

You know your servants is a newspaper or a broadcaster.

Whenever is is what you broadcast all published being relevant to people's ordinary lives and it but it's clear that there is a groundswell of opinion.

White people that you cannot continue to have racial discrimination the way that we've had it over many many many years and if you can do it it may be on the inside page it may not be on the ten oclock news on the 1 oclock news or it may be on the news channel make that link between those statues on George Floyd because there is a direct link and just before I bring him back in I said I'd mention the front page at last Thursday Maddie McCann it was an interesting development there in a long-running story Piers Morgan called it an example of unwitting subliminal decision-making is that fair?

I think it probably is fair actually I mean look disgusting racism and centuries of of discrimination is It's Complicated it's messy.

It's do you know it? It's disgusting Miley McCann a horrible horrible disappearance and potential murder.

You know it hurts my back to a simpler time as you said at the end of that you need to follow papers, but you know there are 13 14 2030 pages in a newspaper.

It might not be on the front page but as long as it's in there.

Are we got it? We got it in this context are we going to talk about this information and disinformation that there was a video lots of things being shared why your social media including by British politicians including a video produced by 11 of Tommy Robinson Associates is it feel to you clear that the viewer is being manipulated when the videographer has such an obvious agenda.

This is the challenge which is we like to think that video what imagery is neutral and alternator somebody who's holding the camera.

It's still evidence but in the same way as genital always talk about who the source who is the person that was holding a phone.

Who is then we sharing and in what context and I think we just don't need to do a better job of explaining to people why he's pushed and within right now a number of different narratives within organisational information is Les Mis information.

It's that weaponization then and that's what so terrifying is I see this play out in the US because the closer to date.

Is it is it is a narrative that they're trying to see that.

It's the protester too dangerous for mainstream.

Genesis up to brave activists to get the switching tell us what's really going on is that their agenda people out there holding cameras they come with different positions and you know during the Arab Spring lots of major news outlets had to rely on video evidence a lot of the activist.

Could we possibly use it because the activist.

The things that we wouldn't have happened if there was a big camera crew that you know please go back to the way they have because I didn't think anybody would feel me sometimes.

I didn't care but it's important that this is being evidence but we what do that mean in the context of who was filming it away because I mean that we shouldn't use it.

We just need to provide more context is growing locally routine.

It's getting first-hand footage.

What's happened over the past week.

We talk about deep issues within the media here systemic Prejudice and racism and I'm going to end with a big short from you what we need to do to make the media to reflect and do a better job of reporting on his radar dishes.

I mean first I think we definitely have to look like operationally an internally about how we organizer organizer publishing operations and Thomas Recruitment and training outreach partnerships and that sort of thing and I think you know what other people have said it's me.

Just got to do that consistent work that goes beyond the headlines and sort of like tries to move the conversation on from the source of light and evitable like outrage conveyor belt that a lot of you is based on incidentally that is because of the clip driven needs of advertising based journalism in the commercial sense and that is what we're trying to address this model that's really owns and read a financed.

So they actually a bit more accountable bit more sustainable and can do like longer.

I'm going work rather than just Like This by the screaming headlines that rhyme with and a very good.

Thank you so much to all of my guess.

That's it for today Claire Wardle Close Murray royal lothian-mclean Adam Cantwell corn and a studio engineer was Jackie marjoram.

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