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Read this: #138 - Equality in Audio Pact; Tim Davie named BBC DG; Journos out, AI in at MSN

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#138 - Equality in Audio Pact; Tim Davie…

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Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only man hundreds of Audio company signing in quality pack to fight racism in the industry editors top US publications over workplace culture and some of Britain's favourite comedies a pulled from streaming sites plus the BBC has a new DG and Microsoft discuss Downside of letting artificial intelligence Curate their home page and in the media quiz we play Your Cards Right in celebration of Alan Carr epic game show today's Media podcast.

Deliciously at how is touting for work going during lockdown 4 hours.

Have you been on any nice walks with commissioners? We've been quite lucky.

We had a documentary go out BBC3 called my mates and Muslim which one at last month and did really well.

We still not entirely on lockdown.

I'm just doing some stuff.

We just deliver some stuff for own it which is the BBC literacy brand so we've been busier than we expected to be which is always nice and it definitely feels like people are starting to take calls and emails now also weather today digital editor from immediate Media Rebecca Messina is back on the show hello Rebecca on the your home style website the other day and I could lead to believe that you've had a hand in that was that your work today in fact.

It was the Didsbury strawberry and Sicilian Lemon really nice has any other day so when we were in the office who would you like a taste test and we have the same six or seven people and try them now.

Obviously it's kind of this one was the other one one operation so I had to drink it like four different ways to work out.

What was the best one in the name of journalistic integrity so new website for your home and you mentioned in the office.

What's it like being an immediate at the moment when presumably still not everyone is in the office and some people worry about their jobs are getting used to the same thing.

I think most people have now actually find sometimes.

It's easier to get hold of people over whom you know sometimes.

I spend half a day going downstairs at the office and you know finding the same people that are still in a meeting is actually easier to track people down.

I think people are quite conscious of looking like they're available for calls you know because they don't people think they're out walking the dog or doing something.

And also returning to us from don't skip Media podcast to Christina Moore hi Christina hello.

Are you open the podcast Studio with pulling timing are either have small businesses or their self employed so that includes authors influences and they don't always want to record in their home.

So that the line is you might work from home, but your home isn't always open for business and it said that's who the studios for and when do you reopen it's based in Kentish Town and with a bit of luck will reopen next week.

Studio somewhere really does have to be in zone one or two if you're in London doesn't it? Yeah, I mean it was I did a little bit of a survey before I opened the most people were willing to travel much further than that start with you because you were one of the launch partners for the new equality and audio packed tell us a bit about that and how you got involved in it back of all the process that have been happening both here in the UK but especially in America around George Floyd and it's while he can't do anything about policing we can do something about the way we treat inclusion and representation in media for the next TV audio as specifically work on audio and so Rene Richardson

Broccoli content she works really hard with her team on setting up some 5 points are packed in fact so the first point is in town.

So you may or may not be surprised that even though it's illegal a lot of people find a lot of companies find a way to get around paying interns to a tyre people from the lgbtqia plus community black people people of colour and other minority so we've had a few comments based on one of them being it should include people with disabilities and perhaps we should have a focus on ageism but we included the and other minorities within the the podcast and audio industry to be inclusive in that way and then it's higher than 4.

That are not only related to their identity right thing that you have noticed as a pernicious habit in the industry.

You know it will say look we've got lots of black minority staff because they making a programme about street music or whatever but not making the discussion programme Radio 4.

This is joking aside there is a kind of a weird Talents to be struck because on the one hand as somebody that is from another community you want to be that the voice that their stories and it's important that you are in the room and then there's always get told but like I said it's not the only story you interested in and it is really frustrating when the only work that you get all the only time people send you a brief it.

You with your identity and not to do with the quality of your work or or the fact that you've got skills and interests and knowledge in other spaces, so you know that's the kind of honest as you know we need to do everything that we can to broadcast the sort of things that were into and content that we need to make and we like I said we just done this documentary my mates a Muslim around Ramadan ya Ramadan and and I'm from Emerson background and but we wanted to demonstrate that we can take that topic and make it in the BBC freestyle so that the next that comes along it's like right.

They can BBC Three now.

Let's give them another area and those discussions have already started happening.

So it's good to use as a Proving Ground but it's really important that people don't just get completely silo.

It's only making content about their identity cuz if anything else just a bit weird ok Christina carry on point number three on the 5-point plan.

What was it is if you are a company that releases gender pay gap?

Release your race pay gap data at the same time so some companies are obliged to release their gender pay gap there have been calls to make it mandatory to release also the race pay gap, but what were saying to the company is that if you're going to release One release the other there shouldn't be any reason any any more reason why you should be embarrassed about the gender pay gap when you should be releasing a race pay gap.

So the BBC is one of the signatories, but I mean this is a newspaper story waiting to happen next year isn't the BBC releasing race pay gap data going to see some probably not very surprising that depressing headlines around this it reminds me of when they released gender pay gap data.

Previously, there was a massive discrepancy obviously and there was some backlash within the company and there was just a really tone-deaf response that was basically boiling down to the figures are skewed by Mrs and obviously the people in the hire Rolls-Royce even bigger bonuses, so you know we were like oh, yeah, that's obviously that's not a problem that you and Christina don't just participate in panels that are not representative of the cities towns and Industries that they take place in an interesting one because you know people do you go to in the radio industry spends all over the world and think people are aware that they need to have an ethnically diverse panel doesn't always happen, but there are there is an issue this idea that you have to have someone from the place where you're doing the panel.

I mean I've never seen it so it's more than the Spirit of this point is that if you're in Manchester and you're holding a podcast panel or event.

You inviting people from Manchester who creates podcast it just seems like the obvious thing to do sadly not so yeah, it's just one of those things there's some cities for instance like London where is not just about inviting London as to the any of the podcast festival or any other panels.

It's about making sure that in place as diverse as London that those panels are also diverse as well, so which is not to say that if you are in.

I don't know I don't go home if you're in Hull and you podcast panel that we expect you to have somebody represents Asian people and also black people if that's not the makeup of your population were not expecting but where it is fitting this is where we expect that you make a very conscious decision to bring people in from that community or in diverse areas to make sure that's represented.

And finally briefly point number 5 I feel like Paul Gambaccini now about who works for your company as well as their role position and permanent so this number five has come about because some who shall remain nameless some companies will put on their profiles a number of outlets for the sake of the lack of a better word b a m e staff and and I say that an inverted commas and they're not there freelancers who they bring in specifically for number 2 which is the only hire black Asian people and the lgbtq plus community just to fulfill.

Let's say they're closer as they have had a commission commission and therefore will bring into a freelancer just for that role.

Well if they're good enough to do that.

Production, why are they not good enough for to hire permanently if that post is open permanently and were expecting this packed to do as well as it has a public shaming is what has called it.

I bet you've heard I think more than 50 signatories now and big names on there as well as the BBC people like a car something else etc.

I think they're close to 200 know we were not expecting it.


I wasn't I can only speak for myself.

I was not expecting that many people to participate.

I really thought that it would be a couple of independence podcast houses production houses at who kind of wanted to Spearhead change, but it turns out in the wake of all of these race conversations that a lot of people actually thinking that we need to act on it, so I'm very busy problem.

Because there's not going to be a board is actually in control and monitoring this stuff, but there is no monitoring that and we had a meeting this morning to talk about ways that we could make it I guess somewhat democratise it we didn't necessarily want to control it but we definitely needed and mean accountability so we're looking at ways that people could perhaps report things and honestly and ways we can communicate with the companies.

They could improve on any offences committed well done is obviously a tremendously successful, think I should say the both of the production company behind the media podcast PPM and rethink audio signed up to the packs as well, but one of the things that I read that Renee said too hot pod the newsletter for podcast is and it did strike me as a little bit strong.

Pause if you have a team of 10 and 1 black face or no black faces, you are upholding white supremacy bearing in mind that you know pame employees are in a minority in the media industry.

Not just because they're not being employed because there are minority in the country and there are a whole range of reasons like with internships as we discussed that getting into me just in the first place.

I can't use independent production company we do have one but members self we're working on getting more with employ the best people for the job that doesn't make you want to practice.

I think part of what the George Floyd issue has it's not listening like this.

Not enough is being done it too slow and obviously a lot of that has to do with authority and and policing and the issues based around that but the reality is that this diversity conversation has been going on for so long people like me and I'm sure others are just bored of it now and if you're not doing the housework and if the strongest language isn't going to be used in Dunnes

Attention and just going to see it as a form of a better phrase a box ticking exercise so I think strong language is is necessary and if you want to defend yourself against not hiring people of colour or not home people from communities in different backgrounds.

You know it's sometimes you going to set up and defend yourself harder if you're going to be called a white supremacist and if there's a legitimate reason why you haven't been able to do it and you want to defend yourself against that then fine let's start with the most outrageous thing that you could possibly be a keystore and work backwards from there.

Hopefully the easiest solution is going to be biased more diverse people rather than argue with Rebecca obviously this station is part of a much wider conversation about race that's happening specifically in America but all over the world but over there there's been a bit of a recommend this week for bosses who have allegedly created the toxic environment for black and brown staff with resignations at us publications.

Tell us about some of those.

To resign after the day published an opinion piece by a US senator of sending the troops and it was basically suggesting that the military should be sent to restore order and due to the protests that have been taken us by Storm right across the country this had a big backlash in the New York Times office itself off and James Bennett has now stepped aside and been temporarily replaced.

I just think that I mean that in itself is really I mean symbolic of where this the US is right now in the sense that a piece that was written by an elected representatives has met with such a backlash among you know opponents on the progressive opponent, but it has for the editor who proved it to stand out you know if you look at the piece itself senator cotton has since come forward and said look I didn't say sending troops.

To break up protest.

I've just said that if the police will overwhelm then the military have to be sent in which is true, but the backlash was more to do with you know somebody uncertainty made about the infiltrators causing violence and about police officers bearing the Brunt of the violence associated with the protest but I do think it's like it's incredible to think that this person was elected to his office and has written a pea-sized own viewpoint and that has forced someone to have to stand down at the New York Times really just shows how divided the nation really is the news publications bon appetit and refinery29 as well.

I think this happens when you know these are sites that star stuff quite small and have ballooned in size and they still got the same people at the head of them who you know kind of being.

Managing them in a video syncratic haphazard way and you know it's become their personal fiefdom and there was one of the complaints made about rapport with someone who had worked for him and said that he was texting you so often at the weekend and asking her to do personal errands that she spoke to HR and but it just continued because there's just no you know mechanisms are in place to protect people like you might have it I can organise corporation.

It's all under the control of these figures as I'm off to ask you about requesting that these kind of Good Morning Britain at the moment, but you know there's an important story in medial and which is the pulling of Little Britain and Bo Selecta from online streaming services because of brown face essentially there are other politically correct issues with those programs, but that's what brought it to a head with this is the context.

What did you make of all of that and also? What do you make a Jack Carroll comedian tweeting that taking download?

Play voicing quote the real work to counteract racism.

I'm never a massive fan of of knee-jerk reactions to to very complex issues.

There's no doubt in my mind.

I've always had problems with with butter as a character from Kazakhstan and what that's done to hold country like to know what this country thinks it has occurred beyond the on that one can obviously Little Britain was a primetime comedy we had the same thing around Bo Selecta and and so comedy is stereotypes and it's sometimes the line has been pushed too far to literally apparently people for what they look like or what they speak like and that is that is problematic my my view.

They are cultural artefacts of their time and I don't believe they should be erased.

Oh, I think that I very much support the idea of putting up cards before programming goes out and we had a similar sort of.

In The Simpsons and that character is now gone but I grew up with the Simpsons and at the for a long time it was the only mainstream Asian character that was you know existed and so you know there was a weird disconnect that I had with a character like that and I really do feel that the deleting all of that history that doesn't really serve any value and what should be done is I think what is done.

Previously differently which we put up messaging to say look this is an article about time and it's not effective it would be Goldberg did a similar sort of thing around dumbo and it's not it's not relevant now, but we are keeping it uncut because it's important to know how how that contacted content existed in that time.

I think the reason that people have been so shocked by this have reacting the way they have is it because it's so recent I mean the Gone with the Wind argument is different because it's such an old film and we all know that racism existed in that time and we've gone through lots of pain and heart.

The fact that were talking about comedy shows that existed and was commissioned while some of us were still working in television really go to demonstrate.

How much further we do need to go because it like the warning that Disney plus product for example disclaimer.

Is this show contains outdated cultural depictions it was made in a completely different political context is different in that.

I'm speaking for them here and that I have no permission to do so but I'd imagine that the time if you ask them Lucas and Williams would have seen themselves and I know they're both white men etc, but they would have seen themselves, so basically post politically correct comedians especially since they were projecting such a game it as well.

They would seem a Little Britain and it's called this is basically what would happen if the Two Ronnies real multicultural world that was all the characters.

Just like Eddie Murphy didn't coming to America and it's a backlash Against The Blair new Labour government which is all about political correctness.

Not to be seen in the context of a kind of UKIP territory government we have now from a different era.

Politically is not necessary that the ratio of any more or less powerful than my where is the Joker's interpreted differently but I think I think the the way that this has been rolled out in a messaging around.

This is what fallen down.

I cannot see your situation where BBC worldwide and and the BBC themselves don't bring back Little Britain or back onto S4 services.

I can't see the fact that he's going to delete that whole area of comedy completely I imagine what's happening is a behind-the-scenes a conversation with Matt Lucas David Walliams too kind of do an intro to that show that when you watch it before hand they say exactly what you just said and and say that we apologize that cause offence and this is this is the time in some of it is not quite right now and etc.

That's probably what will end up happening the problem is that like they just gone let's just delete it because people are getting a bit upset and that project about image on.

And creative folks today about what we need to talk about which is what is appropriate on-screen.

What is inappropriate on screen? When can we make jokes about things and when can we impersonate things and how far do we go to impersonate a good part of comedy discourse and I don't want to lose impersonation that don't want to lose the ability to laugh at people and try to caricatures simply because we're too worried about how we portrayed on screen by what they look like.

We need to have that debate and not just think they're off limits because of the way they look that's going to be a problem.

I think I would you make for Leigh francis' apology for Bo Selecta it was very interesting to me that you posted it as Keith Lemon because that's what is social media following is but he started between by saying hello Francis my play a comedy character called Keith Lemon and suddenly you're looking very introspective man.

Did you believe him?

Remorse from him in the sense that he's just realised what he's done it.

It's quite shocking that he has just realise what he's done.

I mean if you remember Bo Selecta all the principal characters were black characters Michael Jackson Craig David Trisha Goddard now.

I'll be all the main characters that the avid Merrion or Leigh Francis or Keith Lemon portrayed with black characters and that is you know you would hope that those commissioner that looked at when this is a bit weird but for whatever reason they didn't and I think that you know even keep lemons carrots and now on Celebrity Juice which is effectively I've got blonde hair blue-eyed girls on either side of my panel and I'm making jokes about them is going to be seen as problematic in the future and and so again.

It's comedy of its time but it but I do think we need to cut through tonight at a little bit more Christina problem.

Nothing now.

I have always hated that show was also the character Keith Lemon just don't understand.

Why this is on Earth or why it's tolerated by his female presenters? I just have no I I cannot father play bo' Selecta was acceptable then, but then also why the character of Keith Lemon is acceptable now neither one of those are acceptable for me and they were both problematic.

I suppose you playing the fool isn't it? The idea as like you're laughing at him for objectifying women and the women are in on the joke, but it's something nice.

Isn't it cracking back with more meeting you after This podcast Christina Rebecca and Faraz are still with me.

Let's pick up now to digital journalism because Microsoft has just replaced its human news editors with artificial intelligence software that Rebecca tell us more about this.

Very recently actually basically.

I think it was a couple of dozen journalists were told that they were no longer required by Microsoft to run and also the news feed for the edge browser because the technology has finally been perfected and now robots could replace them worth noting that they don't actually from scratch that you take content from Elsewhere and sometimes they speak a little bit but they even that good luck.

If people like me that it can produce original contactless indistinguishable forget I testing gym as they were trying the the Beta version of this technology it turns out that it's not to tell the difference between the two mixed-race members of Little Mix putting a picture of the an on a story about Jade and Jade subsequently took to social media.

Doing this I think the consensus seems to be that at that moment.

She thought it was a human error calling out the as you would a human editors, but she was out the technology and I'm ok.

Just been laid off to see that this would be the first major news story involving the new technology and it's the first time that has been involved in scandals to do with Rachel recognition the infamous Nikon camera instant 2010 when people are taking photos of age and subjects moving asked blinked because the machine technology haven't been trained to recognise a wide diversity of faces know you had Google photos which was classifying spaces of black people as

Which they still hasn't been resolved I was looking at this was in 2016.

I think I had a quick look before we started and basically what they did as they stop Google photos categorising any photos of as being of gorillas chimpanzees, so they obviously still haven't managed to find seen that technology so they've just put in a unicorn emoji work around so yeah, this is you know far from the first time that this kind of this kind of incident and that goes to speak to the implicit racial bias of of artificial intelligence doesn't it Christine it's not no human.

Obviously has designed a program that hot water absolutely would like to stress that AI isn't necessary is not racially biased.

It's the people who programmed it.

Who are the 120 and therefore that makes a a racial bias and the people who programmed it is the general public is the problem if it's not even about the program.

Imparfait they'll be it will be a combination of both so it's the programming of the software so they are essentially is engineered to behave and performing a certain way, but then it's also asked to learn from us from our behaviour which means that it's doing both.

It's more I see they're the reflection of the society that it's been a problem in and of itself and so I think that like so many of these issues.

We should probably be questioning our own Behaviour online and developing these technologies and those and those questions will help prohibit those sorts of feelings also for as I mean of all companies at the moment Microsoft you know who own teams and a big chunk of zoom which were using right now.

I'm Skype right now with the world literally took.

Using their products all the time of all companies.

They would have enough money swelling around do not fire a load of journalists and replace them with computers but we're doing it what hope everyone else well.

I mean if I was a conspiracy.


I would say that if I can get it right for them and then they can sell their product to newsrooms across lots of different places and and I think it would kind of Johanna mean if I save loads of money starting is always a big big expense and if Microsoft can develop products that can save lots of people lots of money, then then you know I imagine that they want to get that you what word that sounds like a terrifying proposition.

We do have to remember that there are a lot of newspapers right now that are in a lot of trouble and the Democratic values of not having any local papers for instance end and the fact that they're all kind of really really struggling at the moment means that cost savings that stop publications being shut down.

Is it something that is attractive?

Bored and now as much as I don't want to see generally say jobs.

I think there is a market for a product that will allow things like this to particularly if it is just PR3 posted for entertainment value like this story probably was that is you know that is going to be attractive to certain place it so I can see why Microsoft wanna get this product right you can get it right in their own space than then the value is going to be it's going to be quite high for them.

So that's probably why they doing it, but I think I really agree with what casino was saying that a lot of it comes down to how these things a program I remember story about Lukaku and stormzy that an Irish newspaper out where they put a picture of stormzy rather than the Man U striker okaka about his his premiership transfer just because they both look similar and that causes problems and the result of that means that there is lots of press about how Lukaku has being mistaken for stormzy and if your name and all you're doing is scraping data.

Stormzy you getting a picture of all the time then I imagine I'm not in a eye specialist, but I imagine that those things are going to cause inherent bias depending on how do you program that software so there are there are built-in systemic racism of and of our industry and the way the internet works and I think that there's a lot of work that needs to be done before we can create a product we can go out market and start selling also Rebecca original journalism is expensive but if you don't cost cutting this kind of curation or journalism actually is cheap business you get a graduate who's got a brain on my shoulders and get them to look through some new sources and correct the homepage of MSM and it's important.

I know it's like divided brand these days, but it's the homepage and it's but it's got to be worth your 25 grand a year to just make sure it doesn't because it doesn't mean you would think so it is going to see companies.

Play sing to get this technology is obviously very profitable in the future technology out there before they have made sure that they're completely ironed out you know any of these any of these errors which enormously to the people know the individuals involved then.

I'm staying away.

That's all as well, but I mean this is kind of donors and it's a bit like the list of colours something it gets a lot of derision online but for a lot of young journalist that is their first role, and you know not everyone has a kind of connections.

Are they could happen to you know assistant editor role, let you know if you're coming into it and you don't have this connection to your foot in the door and people do cheap jobs.

You know running social media but obviously anyone who works in media knows that those rolls are normally important and their difficult you know and they are.

And even more significant in the future, but it's just part of a pattern whether used entry level roles.

Are you know really valued I mean not saying that they are necessarily you know the most challenging jobs, or you know the most important that they do represent a valuable foot in the door for a lot of people long-term value of teaching those journalist how to write copy that people are searching for is actually useful skill as well and I was speaking to you the day.

You were telling me his first job was basically New Year writing what time is Tesco open on Christmas day articles, which would be incredibly highly but you know to get to the website that is what people are searching for that's going to make you a better but it's going to make you a journalist who is appealing to a larger audience with why do the clocks go forward today then? There's a lot of value having a journalist and not just in town but sometimes sometimes left with some experience on on this.

Platform the reason is is what we've been talking about today a journalist can actively pursue stories that represents the community that either talking or whether that they're in and so you don't have to have a sea of white faces when a motor on a platform it's you would kind of how to make sure that they exercised that kind of editorial judgement director-general is this far down in the running order for us to look after audio music at the BBC and then he was working at the Studio so he's had kind of quite a breadth of the of experience across the BBC he previously worked for pepsico.

He's got a kind of commercial head and shoulders as well which is going to be useful for the BBC particularly in in the direction.

They're going in right now and with the new BBC BBC BBC worldwide becoming a bigger and more important part of what the BBC is.

I think there was a bit of a shock in the industry.

I think it was generally seen as Charlotte Moss job and she's an excellent job of running BBC television for quite a long time, but I think as things have changed for everybody in every single different situation across the board having Tim's commercial expert said sorry to miss the DVDs eventually I'm sure you're having an experience having 10 days experience from the commercial sector from the audio sector which are becoming more important for the BBC and as well as having an understanding of how television works and how independent production companies work as well.

Is is going to be very very useful particularly that negotiate.

It's going to be required as we get into the the troubled treacherous Waters of licensed 3-week caseation more important than you think for Asda in the Optics of again.

Having a man in this role, do I think it's great that another Oxbridge educated white man has got the top job at the BBC know it sucks but like the reality is that we've got to decide about what we are involved in it but the board I've got to decide about you know what it's going to need moving forward from the BBC and I think the point is that it is frustrating that there are not candidates from a very small pool of of Wight Oxbridge men that can solve those problems and that is a step systemic issue frosty industry.

Was that right so basically he's commercial Nous the most important thing for the BBC at the moment and why has been good at doing that job in the what's the way this is what's important and I think of it if it was a shootout between Charlotte and Tim the question has to be what what do you need what experience do you need to run? That's the way you want to run it and I would be if I was or if it was me.

I would be incredibly frustrated if it was the story was well.

I only got that job because of my ethnicity and Charlotte will be incredibly frustrating if she found out that the only reason she got that job was because of her gender and so we have to be careful about what the resulting Optics of that are the issue is not really about Charlotte autumn, the issue is why is it that we have not got somebody all the BBC contract somebody who is female who is on a different background.

To do that role in to do that job and that's what needs to be looked out on the commercial thing Christina is that is the most important to me.

That's what they said that is the most important to BBC studios to have the BBC stopping at the time of the 100th birthday of the BBC the licence fee settlement making sure that audiences that migrate to Netflix still happy to play for iPlayer keeping news impartial and there's a lot of is going on and the most important thing is we've got someone even keep money coming in to manage the money in the initiatives that you mentioned have always been in the scope of what the BBC has to do.

I've always had to had a challenge of impartiality so bring in somebody that has a commercial Edge I think it's great for the BBC I think they they do have a lot of competition are going to have to think about ways.

Finance themselves a little bit better and I think that Tim Davie was a good choice and if you ever worked in radio on the audio side of the BBC Tim Davies actually he's not much of a surprise.

It wasn't one for me either why he was almost I don't hate to say it was almost like he was shaped to do it.

I don't know whether that was a case of him being favourable within the corporation that might be put may or may not be problematic but for sure he's career trajectory or gave all the indications that that was what he was going for the person on the panel who doesn't stand down programme commissioned by this man for someone who serves him.

What did you make of it in the aftermath of the Jimmy Savile scandal, so I think he's probably seen the job at it's most challenging.

I doubt things like you know compete with Netflix going to compare to the very intense public scrutiny that dropped on the BBC but there are a lot of challenges.

Obviously her head on the BBC was trending on Monday although there was an interesting piece on the conversation that kind of implied that was probably due to boss basically get to trend over and that was that huge area that does tap into a you know whether it's spots causing a trend or not.

There is obviously a very real discontent with the BBC telling they had to look quite hard to find out whether the person who organised the defund the BBC petition was petitioning from a left-wing or right-wing perspective turned out.

They were against the supposedly anti-government the BBC has been taking over the black lives matter protests, but you know I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been you know and I rate xx call Denise

Pissed off with the way that they are portraying labour so I just goes to show you know one of the things that that baby is going to be up against and you know along with all of the competing with streaming and BBC News Google search if you had Jane Garvey on the show couple of additions ago Tubthumping the proudly everything that was happening at the BBC and how they cover the pandemic and public trust has been one back and how it seems such a long time ago that the government was having a go at the BBC and how the future model must be so certain now because the public clean so desperately to Auntie I don't think of you for us at the time.

Was you saying all that because you did predict this on the show shortly before the pandemic.

You're on the last episode in kind of normal times when we were sitting around in the bath and you said this is going to be good to anyone it will be good for the BBC because they are impartial news and they're going to rise to the challenge still hold.

Tony Hawk was going to step down as well, so I'm doing all the other girl yeah now.

We're actually you think that just because of the new cycle the BBC has just natural indicated some of these issues and has been available to parents that I think the entertainment work has been done is going to be incredibly valuable moving forward as we try and find some joy and happiness out of this mad situation or in right now like the bed doing across the board because they're not commercially funded means that they can stick a neck out a little bit more.

I think all these things are really really valuable and really demonstrates.

We're having a public service broadcaster is essential in time and you know unfortunately for better or worse what actually I'll keep up for a lot worse.

We've just been mired in political discourse of such a long time around the brexit.

General elections around you know as we talked about earlier kind of extreme left and extreme right views and answer to have something that is equalising and need good strong information and scrutiny around isn't a political issue.

It is a health issue or education issue.

That is being where the BBC do really really well, and I think they're not having a summer of sport and music which is where generally the BBC ticks in their appreciation with audiences and still being able to kind of have that level of all its satisfaction and and and trust.

I think it is a really really strong thing and demonstrates.

Why should be proud of BBC and continue to advocate for her and the back of the corporations asked Roger sambrook, who is currently director of journalism at Cardiff University to review its social media policy repeated scandals that have emerged over BBC journalists and things that they have posted or like shared on social media which is caused their impartiality.

Boot into disrepute there's actually he was actually brought into the role before the Emily maitlis instant, but obviously that's kind of emblematic of the sort of thing also be looking up by the BBC account should be using an inflammatory moments and trying to get them to go viral you know you'll see it after question X been on you know the official account will share them as rabble-rousing eclipse.

What do you think is going to conclude? I mean jumping the gun a bit but what do you reckon? He's gonna say I'll give you a call and find out I have no idea.

What is really complicated problem and I think actually it's going to be one of the big issues for Tim Davie it's like 80 years is that social media and the way that social media networks requires outrage and of the BBC going to get noticed in the space then yes, they are going to clip things from from different program out of context like the Emily latest April or like the question time clip.

It's going to be going to cause problems and I think that the BBC need to make a really strong decision about how it wants to conduct itself within.

BBC brands within that space because they're it doesn't make any sense for The Newsroom to proudly be in partial, but then put out clips without context without debate without discourse in the hope that they are going to go viral or can you get attention and and can I be part of the attention economy and that is a problem that they need to solve this may or may not be relevant but from my work as a producer when you are sitting in The Newsroom and it's specially if you are social media producer.

You are somewhat under pressure to get highest engagement you possibly can and so I feel like that.

That's the Earth of the broader BBC issue to conversation to be had but when you're asking so Media producers to say when you're asking them to get as many clicks or as much engagement as possible.

That's what they're going to resort to and so I hope.

The panel like what what what would you expect a social media producer to do in those cases? I think it's quite simple for me.

I don't understand why the BBC feels like they need to get those clicks all they need to get that are not commercially funded organisation.

It's not like you know the news channel isn't there to be the most popular news channel is to be the most trusted news channel and if there's your account don't follow the same pot plan.

It's going to be problematic if you're going to go well.

You know we want our social media to be better and more engaged and you know be shared more than anywhere else in yes that you actually tipping yourself into commercial motivations for the content.

You're putting out and then you get into the kind of Fox News territory of going what's the most scandalous ridiculous thing I can say looking at me.

No one who socially fluent or social media fluent looks at the quote of one individual say on the BBC News account and things that's the viewer.

BBC when they can see that the BBC then interviewed someone I'm just because you've tweeted what Nigel Farage said if you follow it up with what Jeremy Corbyn said that in itself is balance.

Isn't it? That's what she does it' interviews both, but it's not but it's not balance if the audience for a for Nigel Farage tweet is significantly bigger than the audience for you know this we or somebody the other side of the base to eat if you're not going to get the same amount of retweets.

It's not like the way that TV setup which is you know we put something out.

It's broadcast this time.

It is within a package and is found within that packaging and you can see what the debate is your clipping Out part of that putting it online and it's part of the biggest stream of what's going on then you have to look at that one piece of content and see if that one piece of content has has balance can't look at it within the within of you, what had Newsnight put out across the last 4 hours because some of it will not you know we're not getting into some of it will because that's how social media works.

It's not the same as going well.

So long as we put the same amount of sweets out on both sides said it's fine.

It's the audience of that one piece of content you may need to consider ok bit of sad news.

I'm afraid before we move on to the media quiz for staff at Dennis Publishing Rebecca used to work there.

Tell us what's going on a quarter of 120 people are facing potential redundancy and all of those I think that the idea is to cut about half of those rolls, so that 6-year olds in total going to be going there is very sad news and I think obviously going to see stories that this replicated across the media.

We already saw today news UK is considering what role is going to be the question of when rather than if there as well as well and said haven't made.

Businesses like Dennis going to be particularly effective you know they've got the mainstream flagship title.

You know they got the week that they've also got you know a myriad of smaller niche publications in a cell if you have copies or bring in huge amounts of revenue but they got a dedicated audience you know you've got like pcpro and you know things like that a very targeted audience and I think this is unfortunately in the aftermath of the coronavirus pandemic and the effect it had we are going to see a particularly devastating impact on those needs publications many of which have managed to weather like in recent years, but I think this might be there the final straw for a lot of those ok.

There is just time to play all Legendary Media quiz today in celebration of Alan Carr driving familiar old format 3 is Epic Game Show series on ITV it is time for us to play Your Cards Right I'm going to start you off with the presenter's name and the number of game shows they've hosted according to. we will play in alphabetical order so we will start with you Christina Sue Perkins has been main host on 11 game shows from the British Bake Off to one called casting couch which apparently was gossip what I want to know Kristina is whether the number of game shows hosted by Sue's comedy partner.

Mel Goodrich is higher or lower lower toasted 10 game shows including draw it and pitch battle is the number of game shows hosted by Julian Clary higher or lower than 10, so I think that Juniors hosted left shows that slower.

Game shows including Mr and Mrs and the underdog show Rebecca is the number of game shows hosted by Reggie Yates higher or lower than Julian Clary is a Reggie Yates and say hire.

You are correct that was the question.

I never having seen her for 10 days and remember those days.

Number game shows hosted by Richard Bacon higher or lower than Reggie Yates is 10 of a single game show for hire dropping out your correct Richard has hosted 9 game shows including back to reality and the big painting challenge rules on my own.

This is why I've never got a game so far is wrong is the number of game show hosted by Davina McCall higher or lower than 9 every game show known to man God's gift to the Vault this will get someone else.

I think Rebecca Bruce Forsyth host of Play Your Cards Right as he hosted higher or lower than 14.

I see you coming and I'm I'm sure that it slower because he hosted a few but they were just really good ones.

Thank you.

I mean I'm just exhausted by this Christina has Zoe Ball for lower.

Yes no no no no no you're right you're still in the car for us make this stuff has Sandi Toksvig hosted higher or lower game shows to help you.

I'm going to end this now Sandi Toksvig has hosted 8.

I think it's all after abusing therefore.

There is no winner of the media quiz this week, but I think the most spirited player so I'm I'm going to give it to her.


None of this kind of second-guessing like Rebecca and France was enjoying sabotaging.

It's a casino in my back garden and Christina Moore and Rebecca Messina help us make more why not take out a voluntary subscription you can head to the media podcast donate and choose an amount all year round catch up with our previous episodes and get new ones as soon as they're released by subscribing for free via our website the media podcast podcast production until next time keep Dancing

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