Read this: Rethinking advertising

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello if you've been listening to Radio 4 this week, you have come across a series of programmes looking at how the world order change after covid-19 in the world of Media sector that's been turned upside down around is advertising money from advertising is a course essential for keeping alive many of the TV channels and publishers that we feature on the show this was the week that we discovered.

This is the year when advertising online will for the first time exceed advertising offline and your own experience of advertising is undergoing his change of course if you think about things you bought recently the chance.

You've been influenced not buy a traditional advert that may be a product review the recommendation of someone online or a sponsored news article responsive news now.

There's more on.

So, what are we going to look at the ad in the street? And where is heading as I've got some terrific s4u, Christopher kenna is 30 the founder of brand advance at the media shape your company mission and I quote is helping brands reach diversity at scale comma with authenticity exclamation mark will come on to what that means that we don't fully understand it, but you're going to say that in the first of all what jumps out for me from your own LinkedIn profile.

Is that your employer for six years after leaving school? What's the British Army tell us what is very Media from Rogers that we have an immediate proper job that the school District to Germany few years later defected defenders into sunny climates, so I was in Iraq when it first happened.

Then went to Roughton and went back to her.

So yeah, it was my first job.

I was from care as well so institution to institution was quite easy so the next step Riley just getting told what to eat where to live where to go and how to do it was nice easy Start for me so yeah, you have been reading about what was it about your experience in the army.

I don't usually but the radio not working to move into advertising an absolute accident.

I should never be here now.

How I ended up here, but it was literally an accident or firm.

I suppose being in the right place at the wrong time.

I'm getting I started off presenting price drop TV believe it on the media through to advertising and then she'll have looked around and said some things which will get into but

Things which I thought I could do a bit better or I could at least find the people that could do it a bit better alright.

Well.

We will get in touch shortly Lindsey clay is the chief executive of thinkbox boxes the marketing body for Britain's at commercial TV channels to Liz's got the job of telling businesses, why they should spend all their money with lots of money or TV advert so8 other job than usual at the moment.

Is it well it's tough job they all had funded Media at the moment.

They will be under pressure, but I'm delighted to say that investment is Studley returning so certainly some green shoots on the horizon expert on what's your all-time favourite TV advert? Well.

I think it has to be the Channel 4 meet the Superhumans 2012 when we all loved ourselves in the world and the Olympics was on and then the Paralympics just exploded onto the scene with the most stupendous as so I think that has too late for me.

Thinking you go way back to the 1990s ok 2012 ok great to have you with us dino myers-lamptey is back with us dino is a former managing director at mullenlowe.

She's a big us agency and it's called the barbershop dino advertising startups always have such cool names.

Where does yourself from well when I was looking for names and thinking about I noticed that there were a lot of barbershops bring it up and read an article that said the barber shops in 2018 with the fastest growing businesses and their places of collaboration and communication and I just got great vibes also like the fact that you know despite having the same tools in the hands of the master you lead to very different and creative.

I was hoping that you say it's inspired by the sitcom Desmond would you based in Peckham

You can say that Johnny Hornby also the founder and CEO of the and partnership Johnny's bath company has offices from Buenos Aires to Tokyo and he looks after the advertising for some of the world's biggest companies.

Can I pick you up there now? Let's hear your version of your credentials in under a minute.

Can you tell us a story briefly of the most successful ad campaign you've ever been responsible for suppose.

We'll have our favorites and effectiveness.

You know is important, but I think if I think about it from the heart.

I was involved in two general campaigns for Tony Blair one of which where we took Margaret Thatcher's hair and put it on William hagues head and that was actually Trevor BT's idea, but I was working with them at the time and I think those are the kind of I suppose with the campaigns that.

Formulated my early passion for the business and it was after one of those General Election victories that we decided to start our own agency, so I suppose that always be close to my heart even though if I'm really honest.

I don't think William Hague was going to win the election even if Tony Blair had no idea since you been quite a journey and advertisers for the last couple of decades.

Let's talk about where we are right now during the last few months is who's still been advertising and how and where they've been doing it in Broad terms as much as there's been a huge growth in on time and a new you get those figures.

There's also been terrific value to be had on television.

I'm in Lidl probably have the figures but as I remember talking to some of my clients about this and encouraging and we were successful in getting him to do it.

You know that we didn't think covid-19 was a time for brands to go quiet naturally the media value was sensational so I don't you had a viewing of Britain's Got Talent at something approaching 12 mph.

Double the viewing level including high levels of 16 to 34 year olds and the media cost was about 50% so basically reaching twice the audience for half the cost so I think those brands missingness around our agencies around the world those brands that actually invested at a time when people will pay lots of attention and media Valley was hi.

I've done extremely well in traditional media as well as in digital advertising revenue being out but who is still been advertising successfully despite that Downton most significant brands have so if you look at the certain which I think I've been incredibly challenge like a look at the travel sector for instance.

It.

Just hasn't really been feasible or possible for them to keep advertising but if you look at you know multiple food retail.

Sainsbury's everybody else has been piling in e-commerce has been a huge sector and in Amazon and all brands down from Amazon which transact-online have been investing very heavily in TV advertising and other channels as well, so actually there has been a journey said with incredible value.

They have been done and I've been taking the great one culture which is you know the pressure washer is suddenly saw the opportunity and hiked up there spend and you can see a relation between that investment and how many people are searching for the culture brand so so so perfect time to pressure washer UK agency British Gas Toyota NatWest Pets at Home Argos they've all advertised in traditional media and on television throughout covid and I think you know without giving too much away or also.

A very good return on what was excellent value for lots of you know I've also included the business come to your new agency the barbershop is has got £100,000 got a big budget to spend on advertising where would you tell them to put it well? It's a good question actually, I was going to say that the biggest advertising over this period of time has been the government so you know in terms of the clients that we tend to work with intent to be purpose driven businesses and a lot of them were massively impacted by covid-19 wasn't the time for them to come out with messages telling people to keep calm and carry on when that wasn't really the case so a lot of artwork did to be towards the looking into Harrogate innovate and changed it a little bit and sometimes even more essential than that you know in terms of business strategy so

Go back a few months ago actually that the advice wasn't really to to advertise, but but in terms of now.

I mean that question in terms of in a what is effective advertising I mean Lindsey love me to say that TV TV TV is effective but you know the thing is things are changing and particularly over the last few months in a consumption behaviour has changed massively as well as we will be locked out.

So so so so typical have necessarily been observed in the last few months.

You know certainly be like cinema for example an outdoor been quite badly devastated but we do expect them to come back and come back with some kind of you know big bang what you're saying why is TV effective because you started off.

They're saying if you want, so you wouldn't have suggested people advertise, but now and then she like your TV is very effective.

What do you mean? Why is TV effective ways to answer this without you know when people advertise on TV they sell our products so so if you use any form of econometrics to study campaigns when you've got enough money.

On TV you find that because of the broadcast Reacher TV your bility to hit a lot of people in a particular moment means that it's very very effective you know the internet and other media.

You know everyone over long enough timeline, but TV is brilliant for getting massive audience is very very quickly and there will be in the topic of conversation the next day around the water cooler 240 this effect.

That's a good point you just maybe it's not just the regions the kind of stature that says if you're in the first game back.

You know when a football comes back or you're in the Britain's Got Talent as a as a big Brand and you're saying the right thing the the water cooler or virtual water cooler as it is now but the sense of stature that you get from that.

I think it's still unrivalled any targeted digital media have done your job for you that you guys have a little dose of realism here.

I don't mean to pick on her.

The company which is producing fantastic Concepts commercially funded and its share price at one point in a few weeks ago was the lowest it's been for 10 years and that must be related to the fact that depends on huge lost in AD revenue for isn't the risk Lindsay that when the economy starts to recover businesses will just have smaller marketing budgets and they're going to be less inclined to pay for those expensive slots.

I think it's exactly the opposite will be the case because TV is the lowest risk investment as well, so if it's what you get for your money is the key thing so it's not actually the most expensive you look at it on her cost per thousand basis, but in terms of the prophet it delivers to your business.

It is smash it out the park.

So there's always a sort of a very quick ninja reaction in times of you know national crisis and if you look back to 2018 what happened there exactly the same thing have.

Drew very very quickly and because TV is often a big no capital investment.

That's the thing that is hit first, but it's also offer nothing that recovers first because once you take money off TV companies realise the job.

It's doing because you know they're not driving that interested not driving and interesting to those online channels, can I think it's probably just worse you know thank you to everybody who's been you know heavily promoting TV but one of the key reasons it works, so well.

It's because of the amplification effect it has on other media and so much of the you know the skill in advertising today is about the combination of Media being used as an TV rating that emotion and then you're triggering the spaniards who captured in online.

I think you soon brands like recently.

Calibrated in favour of performance marketing, so you know much as we are picking up TV here and we will come on to the huge huge growth in marketing and content and I don't think brands can create enough content out of days and the ability to have Uno mas personalised conversations at scale that are sequential is going to be a huge part of the future and just just just bringing something to take a question about that what Netflix has sectors.

Do you know if you look it up people have been entertaining themselves during lockdown Netflix is it has the number of new subscribers it had anticipated online gaming is breaking records tens of millions of watching virtual concert inside fortnite quizzes with friends and family on zoom house party huge amounts of attention that consumers giving platforms that advertisers are on.

What's your solution that absolutely so.

With all the benefits of what we can talk about with TV ultimately though the real thing about it is a platform that allows for engaging and hypertension and actually happened drive to you.

Not think that Disney pass as well have been incredible success stories over the last few months and and the problem in the Channel 4 advertising is there are potential apart from that you don't have advertising opportunities, but that only increases the premium that you prepared to pay out there.

So so I'm in TiK ToK is another example of a podcast for example hydrogen formats that are getting a premium now that was you just have to know and now a good time to mention the news today because Ben and Jerry's ice cream company has said it's going to be boycotting advertising on Facebook for the whole of July it's a campaign called stop hate for profit which time Facebook has an eye quote a long history of allowing racist violent and verify be false content to run rampant on its platform Facebook says it's committed to advancing equity and Social Justice and the almost all contour.

Chris McKenna let me bring you in because we look at the motivation behind what Ben and Jerry's has done a bit but black lives matter is now a huge driver of what might be genuine change in many Industries and your company is a particular issue with the way publishers who target minority would its audiences that includes lgbtq plus and ethnic minorities lose out.

Can you explain what the issue is whether the issue is keyword blocking so used to be more blocks which is words like black Muslim interracial gay lesbian or even in a keeway blacklist buy a brand to the agency and then these are you know whether it's through doubleverify through integral ad science which all technology used to make sure that the brands ad doesn't go near content that has these keyword blocks in what people trying?

Play come to you with this problem.

They are trying to stop their Brown BBC next to contact.

They don't like is that right yeah.

Yeah, they using words that could be associated with madness on the internet and you don't use these words as our blocks so don't put it next to content that has these words are bright and just I did try to come in a little bit earlier.

So I'm going to jump back 1.11 years been talking about TV and all these other streams diversity media and spend by brands in diversity Media throughout covered is gone up 400% so you know brands it where they be moving away from TV moving away from all these other channels.

They've actually a couple of months ago, but streetcleaner was a low skilled worker 3 months ago people cleaning in the in the hospital.

They will load low paid workers.

Now the key workers you know up until two weeks ago.

We were wrapping them every Thursday our balconies out in our gardens, they and they are predominantly from black Asian multi background.

You know the NHS has over 100000 people that identify as lgbtq plus is Brands needed brand purpose nobody needs an ad for toothpaste, but you know especially in the middle of it.

You don't need a toothpaste, ad but you do need to know how to look after your dental hygiene when the dentist and there is Christine and the context of this is very strong moral component to advertising campaigns at the moment, but just go at 1 seconds to this this block that you've been working as a brand come to people that you and say we don't want to be associated with certain content and you deal with reach PLC the newspaper group to try and fix.

This is that right because they put these words in because the

You know the word black could bring your next two gang-related the word Muslim could put your next to an Isis video or something like that.

So they use to block words to block any content so and it's also blocking good content so 76% of all good news LGBT stories are blocked 76% We've also seen as being a big issue for all the newspapers.

They've got a huge increase reach during this period but because advertisers were blocking covid-19 as a term that that was that was hitting all of the newspaper groups are very hard and black lives matter as well that mean everybody stuck a beautiful black box on there, so Charlotte said We Stand shoulder-to-shoulder, you know but then we are also going to block Black lives matter cuz it could be negative content and so we don't want to stick or adds next to that negative content but that also means it's pulling away from black Media the very people that are trying to write about and keep alive the

Quality, it's all been blocked.

So so yeah, so I'll punish it with with what does seem to be? This is why I said I stumbled into advertising and seeing something then I thought I could fix the internet the internet full of sadness so you're blocking things to put off the off chance you might go next to something and we just took all the publications or the black or the aging of the multi-ethnic publications stuck them on another ad server wolves the garden stock all the lgbtq plus disability and the gender and the 50-plus as well cos that's a demographic that only 4% of advertising features but 47% of all consumer spend in the UK is buy some 150 or so all these orders all these sort of left outside of advertising's mainstream.

It took them an ad server and now as a collective you know if you've got.

100 black Asian minority ethnic publications you reach into 300 million cm amazonian elephant in the room before you do that dinner.

Can I just ask you something about this Ben and Jerry's Boycott when did advertising why is advertising got so much.

I remember growing up watching tv.

Adverts watching the Cadbury's advert singers and Malibu trying to tell me a tropical run.

Why is advertising income co-opted into these ethical cultural issues long time ago and I think that's what we've seen is the rise of the influence of the Conscious consumer and that is also been probably also by covid-19 was broken down spending habits that the way we living our lives does reassess mean that was really important and what we really value what we want to put in back going back in so so I think the actor consumers to stand up and rise about something and not just get distracted by you know.

Time it gets a charity concert on the real issues and put pressure on brands at the heart of the pressure on the brands to make a change in advertising responded, but also in terms of the of the advertisers that rushed out in an advert criticized for being sister so Bland and not very empathetic and not to the cause was slam slam down because they are advertising for companies that have a track record and didn't have their offices and checking in the boardrooms and be saying such messages right ok a little bit Johnny Depp me ask you about that I mention the top of show how the notion of what constitutes an advert is changing in particular was thinking about how consumers Now by that we don't normally singer that particular company but I got it because of the force it now is if you're looking to buy a pair of headphones many people go ahead Amazon that you are typing headphones and while and what you don't get presented with might look like a headphones, but the order of what you see is in many cases depending on how much particular brands have paid to Amazon Johnny briefly to you.

What effect does Amazon had a new industry, how much is it changed it?

Well, I think it's having a huge effect and then and probably accelerated even more and it was it was moving fast before but accelerated even more bike over 3 years of digital transformation rate over the last 3 months so in I think the first thing that every client is thinking about other than the value that still in television is that you can't create enough content and you need to understand that in terms of the customer journey all the way through to places like Amazon and that includes your e-commerce strategy that understands all of those mechanisms including the fact that by the way if you go back to you switch 20-years ago that you know the first offer you got a new switch wasn't there because it was the first half of the got there is there because it was paid for and that I think therefore the effects that you need an agency team that can soup to nuts understand how this is going to work the consumer from the TV out straight through to the Amazon page right ok with the Round Table I mentioned and you.

Rethink season is very much with us if you search for a rethink on BBC sounds you can find something on this is from contributors ranging from the Pope to Andy Murray to Lady how on Sunday night at 10 p.m.

Christmas is going to be taking your calls on how kodi 19 should change the world with Thirty Seconds from Mitcham library distinguished guests answering the same question how should covid-19 change advertising Lindsay car Grace typically the first thing I would really like to see and it's separate from covid-19, but it's happened at the same time is the whole black lives matter Focus it feels like it is such a strong momentum behind it.

I think it is galvanised the ad industry.

I think some important work that dinner is done in getting advertising leaders to sign up to a pledge to.

Change and I would really hope that we make a significant change and everything from a representation to opportunities for black and minority ethnic people both in the US and in our industry and I think there's nothing like a crisis to make people realise what's really important and I I strongly believe that come out of this very properly just as it did after 2008 when you know when something is taken away from you.

It's only then that you probably appreciate the job that it does and your TV as a hugely trusted a hugely light and revolutionary.

You know data and tech industry is that wasn't 30-seconds, but you had first mover advantage 30 seconds, how should go over 19 change advertising well 3 months.

The world actually stop spinning and we managed to work from home companies that you can never do it actually did it so now there is no reason for no change we all know that we can change everything about our lives overnight and that advertising as well getting its own house in order making sure that people like me black cos there's more people are within their own house and also better output for their clients.

We can show that everyone is included within society we can do it.

We can do that change the Old Guard can quite honestly and let the change you know the progression happened.

Thank you very much indeed advertising needs to enter along with brands of accountability that needs to take the awareness into action and we need to be driven by purpose and encourage our clients to be driven by purpose, so we need to realise that purpose is about people humanity and real values.

That's not about purpose washing we going to be transparent about objectives and lead just like how the music industry went through transitions back in 1959.

We need to do the same to truly unleash your creativity Johnny home in 30 seconds that was going to work and it's actually worked incredibly well and particularly is a global network.

We found that we've been able to distribute work to be able to work 18 hour days gone the following the sun and I think that's going to become part of what will do for a clocks going forward because I think they're producing lots more context in much faster time would last 27 seconds time terms of Monte Cristo Kennedy no actually and Lindsay thanks studio engineer Jasmine I'll see you next week.