Read this: Tony Hall's Exit Interview

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 Tony Hall is the director-general of the BBC it's his last week in the job, but before he goes he's agreed to sit down with the media show for the next half an hour and much longer if you're listening to us in the BBC Sounds app Tony all the talking to the media show let's go back in time to the autumn of 2012 the Olympics and Paralympics have lifted the national mood uh, yeah be culture Olympiad but then in early October allegations about Jimmy Savile surfaced and just six weeks later George Entwistle resigns as director general barely 12 days after that.

You're appointed those 12 days that changed forever the cause of the BBC and your life just talking through them well, it was extraordinary that summer because I also spent time as a member of running a cultural festival.

Set timer limpic Village as a deputy mayor so it was a an amazing summer with all agree and for that to change so rapidly.

I went back to the opera house in carry on doing this.

I love I love your house.

I love working the apps and then I was actually in Rome with Antonio pappano the music director and we were taking some of our Close people who actually help fund the Royal Opera House around each of the scenes locations for Tosca and I never went to Castle St Angelo which have any upper-level.

No is the final scene in Tosca because of cocaine when I was actually in the platform on which is scorpius study.

Same you come and see Chris Patten because of what happened and I can't remember but it was Chris actually rang me that I Chris rang me so I cut short the fundraising trip to Rome I never made it to the final act.

I myself am sitting in a room with with Chris Patten who said I want you to come back and I'll wait to come back because you know in this crisis.

You're the person that needs to to sort and every little bit Amy knew I had to do this.

I just knew she doesn't know you're gonna have to do that and I also thought about The Haunting of things that would be on the entry of anyone coming to take over the BBC at that point but I just knew I I I never ever ever Dreamed a going back to the BBC I was in the world of the are enjoying myself in the world of art.

I just love being with artists musicians dancers and and and and others but this is one called absolutely could not do not say no to the psychology of course you like to be director-general 1989 having been the boss of news you enter the Royal Opera House you there for 12 years of successful 12 years in those 12 years.

Have you given thought the idea that you might one day apply back to the BBC employed to be done.

Complete shots are you coming back? You know I was lucky enough to have a completely new career in the Arts I be nice to have a skills cancel all sorts of things to do with access to to the opera house has enjoyed myself never ever thought I could I mean I love media and so was on the board is definitely turn the Channel 4 and that was a very nice position to make my my my hand in but never thought I'd come back to BBC ever it was only Chris's conversation with me at some length, which persuaded me that of course I should I should come back and sort things out the pressure on a rainy day.

There was no interview procedure was very rainy day to a sort of a flat somewhere very very long staircase with a glass roof.

I remember and the rain coming on the roof and Ned members of the BBC trust you then where the the the Guardians of the BBC Two people who made the decision to two.

And we had a conversation it was very casual conversation about what I thought about the issue with facing.

How would I deal with them and all of that but it wasn't a formal interview procedure and then this happened at such a speed.

I'm never talking to some close friends and mine about you know I felt I was doing the right thing.

What are you think as you do about these sort of things can't talk to too many people back to people you really really trust and all of you.

You've got to do it.

I felt a huge sense of loss leaving a theatre.

If anyone's worked in theatre and in Opera ballet.

You know that his family and to leave that behind seems like a very big step by just knew I had to go and then found myself if anyone who goes back to that remember seeing Chris Patten and others in front of new broadcasting house with a press in front answering statements about what was going on and I found myself in front of Broadcasting House

With Chris Chris introducing me and me saying it's great to be here saying something about what I felt the BBC's role, should be and then I had this idea.

I would then go directly to the news room, so I said I'm off the music and it was amazing because and I hadn't done this for years and I've never done it really I went down into the into the floor below Brown weather news and was walking around the museum was guided by somebody and then went up a number floors and ended up in the Burmese service and I've gone on a journey there when I realise in this building in for floors or more of this building is it incredible powerhouse of not just really talented jealous telling the story about the UK to actually is extraordinary organisation which is also broadcasting.

I have to say at that point I felt so I I have to come back.

Hang on.

This is absolutely right cos this is so important for the UK actually this is important for the Globe but just before that which is fabled.

I've seen the pictures belong to say Tonys first movers to walk around the building just before that will book the conversation and Chris Patten have you now the benefit of hindsight in retrospect? How Frank worry about that.

He was absolutely Frank about the scale of the challenge.

What do you say was the problem was he said gone wrong admitted that the you know that they made a choice.

They thought was absolutely right.

It hasn't work through sadly the problems to do with Savile and all of that were very bigger problems to do with you.

Cannot overestimate what the BBC was going through they can't when you look back at that and the word crisis is often found around about the BBC actually there are not that many crisis, but that was 1 and

Be ready was because you had a coincidence of of Savile you had a coincidence of of payoffs McAlpine McAlpine payoff issue and a number of other things including I I was able to use the time between the announcement of me coming back to the BBC at restarting.

Did you something I did when I went to the opera house because the Opera House is also in some prices when I went there and I used to 3 months just to talk to a lot of people and I walk I'm a very vividly walking around our buildings in in Salford Manchester and going down.

I can a back staircase cos I was trying to keep it by what your name says alright with someone who show me round and this person said to me by the way you you walk to look at the digital digital media initiative because that's really not going.

At all and I looked at it and discovered that there was a culture.

Whereby people were frightened to say this isn't working and mean in the end.

I had that within weeks.

I had to cancel that and 110 million and all that but you know just clear out the the the things you need to do quickly and get them out of the way, but what really struck me about that with a cultural point about the BBC and that is you have to have a culture where people feel it is safe to say to people above them in power.

I suppose we'll be wiping it.

We've got a problem Houston you know this is not working out.

What do we do and then for those problems we dealt with that was part of them agenda.

Got so let's just go back to your application those circumstances and 2012 cleaning up the Savile McAlpine payoffs aside those crisis you talk about how similar was your pics then to the pits that you'd made in 1999 about.

The BBC in the life of the nation totally different because I tell you one thing I'm all which is I'm so glad I didn't get the job in 1999 because I had I got the I have missed 12 years at the Royal Opera House was taught me a huge huge amount I mean I learnt so much they're about creative organisations and what makes credible inventions tick about enabling people to do to do to do great work and also about justifying yourself as something which is worthy of public subsidy and and I think I've always believed in his money for the BBC I've always thought you were put the you know the audience first.

You're there to serve them with things at the the otherwise might not get and that strikes me is very very important, but I learnt the house was also put the art first and you know I always coming back to the BBC

The best way to justify that to people who were paying the licence fee the money they're paying is by having fantastic program.

Therefore you got to make sure that you talk about this program and make sure that this program to take place are there and and I think that sense of giving an organisation created confidence which I hope I've done and certainly in terms of what people seem to respond to that.

I think that's something I learnt at the Opera House you took over from George ezra's or after he had a very difficult very very brief rain and you have known him from your time BBC news on Ice spoken to him since I spoke to him when he was director general I wanted the 7 years.

I've not spoken to him.

I I I haven't is getting on.

I hope he's doing really well.

I think IKEA he is a fast after him people you know him but I I hope he's doing.

And he's an extraordinary talented person in a rough time will come onto your legs at the moment.

I just talked about the attitude brought to the BBC Oscars 12-years the Opera House to my mind with three big really structural change the UK to try and future-proof the BBC there's a sign into the iPlayer in about the programs are up for 12-months as a launch BBC sounds and there's a murderer Studios and worldwide to make the BBC big player reproduction.

Just be really clear.

We talk about your Legacy how many of those things in your initial application, how many days until due in vision doing in 2012 the first two iPlayer and getting iPlayer to be as rich in terms of content as it now is absolutely there sounds I wanted to give to radio all the things that iPlayer had done the television that was absolutely lost in my mind was one of the thing but she was very important to me to and that is building on world service and turn it to half a billion people and I'm sure we'll talk about the negotiations.

Chocolate but going to George Osborne and say I want 85 million to put into world service was part of my money back to build world service as part of my they take so long to use different conversations with Ofcom sign in iPlayer programmes.

We want to talk about to say something is Happening 5 and 6 of your rain sounds only take so long to the first two years of my time in the BBC and I'm impatient to do things but my first two years was actually kind of forget this now was spent getting the right to be heard you know we lost so much in the autumn of 2012 we lost so much in terms of respect and sons of trust in a trust is something which is so hard to win so easy and quick Toulouse with lost the sense that we were.

Efficient or effective we lost the shooter mad and I think looking back now you kind of forget just how big the issue was to build the organisation back back up again and I go back you know I had to build a team a fresh because people have left or in acting roles get the top team right.

We had to sort out all the problems doing left on the plate Saville green, bullying and harassment the payoffs and all those other things and we have to get the focus back around where why I think the BBC's are which is round programs which is why one of the things I did was 20% of my time will be spent four-fifths of my tongue out of the office going round the local radio station in my first week someone sent me an email from Otley saying you'll be very welcome because she won't come with you.

I went you know getting out and also not any because you want to talk about the things that you're doing but also to give that sense.

Do the people who work here you know you're doing amazing work and can do amazing work another reason perhaps you didn't get to launch those initially straight away.

Lol your time taken with the situation of the rules which you any preparation for this into you are spoken to many present former colleagues at yours Cena figures and TV in politics of transparency that the consensus is that you are a highly effective DG and so I probably hardest job of any DG but there was one common crystals in the medi medi.

I think you know what's coming and it's about the deal That You Struck with the government back in 2015 to take on the cost of free TV licences for the over 75s something which you now say is BBC cannot afford it look like a bad deal back then.

Why did you agree to it? Let me take it back to 2015 against everyone's expectation you had an incoming majority conservative government so the Lib Dems and their break on at the governor of the past.

The Coalition has gone you had a government which was full-on austerity a feeling that the BBC needed reforms that there was a kind of Public Service Broadcasting in the USA kind of there is a a market failure BBC that was attractive to salmon in the Conservative Party and those views were absolutely in the ascendant.

You know helped by the fact that we didn't have too many friends at their idea and the media or in the press or more broadly so I think it was a really really cold as time for the BBC move forward to Monday morning where not suspecting this is the density of the state rings me and says who is that it was putting down who says I've tried over the weekend, but it.

The Treasury are insistent on this.

They are going to impose on you the over 75s you mean by that George Osborne just at which point I said nuclear that means closing BBC2 BBC3 BBC4 local radio some radio networks and probably some other things as well understand.

That's the scalar.

What are proposing nothing happened for 2 or was it 3 days and then we end up in the chances rooms at number 11 down with the van secretary state the Chancellor then cabinet secretary Jeremy Heywood and I had with me and and the two of us will laying out what I meant for the BBC just takes inside that negotiations to vs.

Forces you and Wolf against for representatives of government.

I mean because what we are laying out.

Is is the destruction that they would do by imposing this on on our services.

Did you try to resign over that I felt about resigning but at that moment.

I thought you got to get in there and try to stop this or ameliorate what they're proposing to do.

It was very clear very very quickly that was no possibility of stopping.

Did you make your welfare payment? That's what governments do not broadcast.

Yes, we made all those are given to a kind of laid out every single one of those arguments was very very highly thought very very thought it was a one of the most difficult and 10-second go see ations or discussions, are they had I don't want to repeat it.

We ended up after some more meetings with George Osborne adventureman of the BBC Trust Rona fairhead running through the amelioration which we had one from them for the over 75s one was we would.

Have a licence fee that we go out with inflation for the first time forever decade secondly some impossible on the BBC for broadband and other things would be removed thirdly.

What was digital loophole that those who were not viewing reviewing a rather an online we have to pay the licence fee and what the results of that was as we were including some reform of the M25 which is you had a cash flat settlement again.

Let me take you back to that period cash flat at that time was a settlement only cheated by the NHS everybody else was taking a hard cut so you know an apology of where we work that time and majority cancel the government that was really important furthermore their important picture also to do with the charter and we wanted to ensure that we had a chart that was actually really strong for the BBC and everyone was saying to me you know you'll get a charger for 32425 years that.

Side of you really lucky we want a charger for 11 years with the licence for being the method for funding the BBC now that was right against all the orthodoxy of the people who work at the time.

We got that and I think that's important because the BBC now has had a matter of time 42047 to ensure.

It's in excellent shape.

I hear your nose points about the brutal truth at the end of indigo station, which was doing and Bulford in the Treasury against the trust against the conservative majority government in the table storage and all that stuff the fact is that negotiation insulated BBC the BBC had a timebomb place underneath it and that time is going off just as you're leaving and that's a bad looking it.

That's uncomfortable place for you to be honest.

It would say that you don't lose weight if you would need to do with the aftermath III absolutely wanted to deal with the reforms of the over 75s.

I actually think it's in the new Call of the time I say with.

Absolutely fair solution which is those who cannot afford to pay for the licence fee don't have to pay for it if your on Pension Credit those who can afford to pay the licence fee are paying for it, so that's fair looking for payments, but this is a very very painful choice.

There are hundreds of thousands or millions of people in this country who loves the BBC who supported the BBC for you and you got used to having it for free.

Why you not now actually hurting those people and so you got to pay for something you've been getting for free but you got to go back and say who actually is responsible of this something.

I didn't say you no give me the M25 you know we want to go and reform that this is something which then majority conservative woman put on the BBC we ameliorated it.

Can I just make one financial know if you look at what's happened to the BBC since 2010 the settlement in 2010 actually took 1 quarter out of the BBC's budget this is.

Late the 75891 quarter as a BBC's budget if you compare what I would have been had it gone up in line with inflation the settlement we got in 2015 from 2017 onwards with actually cash flat, so you know I think in that sense.

It's been tough.

It's typed, but is 1 within which we could live but what date does many people listening and watching you now who don't qualify for pension credit for whom the BBC is a marginal call and you cannot afford it.

There's any spend money on eating and heating and will therefore BBC from their lives.

I understand that completely I am sensitive and I understand that can be angry hands and I I get that and I I I really understand that and I want to make sure I have made sure that this is just as sensitively and as fairly as we can that's important, but I also want to make sure that they are getting the sort of services and sort of programs that will make them feel.

While and I think that's what that's the way to telling them that they're getting good value from what they're they're paying I don't get the impression that you're absolutely resentful blow or the kind of person that holds grudges, but do you feel a certain personal enmity to the people in there with you John whittingdale, George Osborne for what they don't I think I think I I don't think you have to deal whatever cards are are given to you and I don't feel any was an invite with John whittingdale.

He's we've gone and setup a local democracy reporters.

They're together which has been immensely successful in countering.

What's happening out there in local Media where there's a lack of reporting of local events.

We've done that together and we talked about the future the BBC let's go forward to the present government.

Have you been into number 10 absorber for a pandemic to see Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings since the election? No, I haven't.

Election but I've not been in since they know how did your conversation with Dominic Cummings go during election after engineer with empty Chairs it it was before having it was intelligent conversation.

That's very good questions about the nature of the of the BBC and a can of journalism here and I would believe in what was your reaction when you saw a standard time splashback in February which number 10 we're going to Alnwick whack the BBC I thought that was only wrong and I wondered whether that actually been quite who in number 10 was saying that the Prime Minister was it somebody else and I don't know but I felt strongly that they were I mean.

I really do believe that there are things that the BBC offer the UK and the situation without facing I believe that then I wrote about it, then I spoke about it, then you don't terms of global Britain in terms of what we don't have London and those things should not be knocked out.

Will will discuss tonight, then I want to get onto your legs are just on those two catches based on your knowledge of them your dealings with Boris Johnson in and Dominic Cummings and Horses still largely full to your successor for what you think is the key to getting out of those people what you need to get out of a negotiation.

I think I don't know Dominic Cummings well in terms of the prime minister.

I've worked with him during the live at city at city hall, and I think there are two big things at the BBC for stupid things are busy going offer first of all global Britain the BBC is best place with its world service on BBC world.

We seen that joint care with audiences are going to be even more I said we want to get to half a billion people bye-bye 2022 with 468 million people are using as each week and that's because of money I got from George Osborne the 85 million to put into new services and that's absolutely brilliant if

BBC could get more money and we've been talking to the phone office over last 3-years about this and I really believe that the prime minister will understand this and and and and I hope will be saying about we could be at a billion.

We could be an amazing voice for the UK globally in terms of soft power because the people who we are at it was fine against are those with pockets paid for by the Chinese government of the Russian government to others the BBC as soon as you leave this country is a mega voice for the UK and I think we should build I think we can do more Adam London and the gender when our 50% out of London in my time.

We put more money into programming from Scotland Wales Northern Ireland and indeed.

I'm a great believer in the local radio network with icing postcode.

We can do more more quickly and dilemmas happens.

Good with learn that you don't need to be in buildings all the time.

That's something that I think that the BBC can offer but also.

If you look at the creative economy, we've got to start thinking in this country about how we move forward and how we generate growth and energy again and the government is saying Sciences and well.

I think so the creative creative Industries and the BBC is an engine room at the centre of that because we can find you tone.

We can go out there and spot people in as we have done with fleabag of all sorts of programs in people and and generate the activity give people their voice so they can fly and make businesses that go global pandemic creative Industries with growing faster than the rest very intrigued to know that the director-general of you should meet the premises advisor in an election who instigated that meeting it actually came out by purely by chance.

I was going to meet to talk about the BBC and how it might appear in the manifesto Roman era for a long time.

You know then we work together in my previous job.

On various things and Dominic Cummings turned up, what's her attitude towards the BBC is not very well no no no I mean you need to ask I'm looking to go into other people's attitudes about going on the issue there Boycott of the same program for pandemic.

Did you raise their with them to I have received with the with the comment yes with all sorts of people.

I'm going to go into when in again.

It struck me as ill-considered because actually you want to have people on a program like Today programme making the pitch for the government and what actually happened a course was that Kobe came along and covered when we could kind of put that behind us and actually do what the BBC is brilliant at the government own part of the job another type of the ghost remembered is that which you've done with many of the people you work with and specifically how you approach the imbalance in pay between men and women at this organisation.

Will you shop by the disparity in pay between?

Windows your feel by the salaries so let me take you back again to when I came into the BBC and one of the first things I did was to say I wanted to find more women presenters, so I asked radio stations that point were 13% female presented to get to 50-50 within I think it was 2 years and that was really important and then one got the charter negotiations out the way and I go back and remind you there were no corporations for that at all.

That was the first couple of years of me being here.

We then began reforms.

I wanted to make about pay conditions and and and how and how the organisation was structured and run that have not been looked at for a generation.

I mean really for a generation so for example there were 5000 different job titles and 19000 people we had structures that.

In terms of the way that the people running things and I wanted to take out layers simplify and actually make it possible for people to compare their salaries across the peace so once of course do that then along comes the the movement for equal pay and actually we are out there first saying we're looking at the gender pay gap gender pay gap is much much lower than all but one organisation in the media and which consistently trying to take that down but when you look at the top of that list you so hard dominate it was by men by some of the old deals deals to be honest with you.

I'm all and I'm not passing any blame me, but I don't before my time, but that's interesting to what extent did you could I don't think we discussed enough in public to what extent did you feel if someone who is again sorting out something of that your hands were tied by contractual negotiations by legal obligations from before your time a lot to be Franklin and I mean you know you do I mean I do think you'll

Images and bulshit by deputy director general who was in a wee hand in glove worked at sorting out so many things having all of us felt we were sorting out problems which were old and you know the very fact that be no reformed by the way people with payday or other conditions of service or they all the levels in the organisation all that hasn't been looked at that time.

Didn't you do something to yourself? We did some at some deals waybackwhen, but you know that's over 20-years ago.

I'm talking about a generation.

I think the last time.

It was looked at as when I was in fact directed of news under John Burke I think I was the last time that those fundamental reforms did not happened since it was cosy deals over lunch where I got a blokes.

They were blokes you get paid the money by talking about their impact on everything.

I think when you look back at it.

There was no clarity about or not enough clarity about why somebody was paid what they?

I think there was a lot there was there was some instances where people said I'm going to go and therefore you know you're gonna pay Jill and what will try to bring Anna let me tell you this is a gargantuan task.

It's huge.

It doesn't surprise me that they've been bumps and noise and on the way not for one moment anyone out there as ever tried to do a regrading order don't know how tough that is put that in a creative organisation and it's really really hard, but I think transparency of the scalar which one I doing has helped and it may seem prefers me saying in many respects.

You know that makes the task even more difficult but I really do think transparency when you're dealing with public money has helped to be clear why someone is should be paid x and someone else should be paid when you change your mind and you've been on a journey about that as we discussed.

I mean I mean I said the time it was supposed to start I still think we've lost people who.

Because actually haven't been paid more outside or they wanted to go.

I think you have to accept that as the price of being publicly funded.

What does it take so long to sort out Carrie Gracie to pay? I think the organisation responded to slowly I can completely agree with you on that but you know I wish I could have done that faster, but that's a very specific example.

I don't want to go much for that.

We ended up in the right place with Carrie I think how many cases are there? Do you know this is a handful and one of my drives before I actually leave in a few days.

X been trying to get those down to 220.

I can't get there because at somebody's cases are very complex and involve people thinking very hard about their futures better one of the drivers case it's not tonight tomorrow morning issue of producers is a much bigger issue than the issue presented to the public know about the presenters pay you been on a journey in terms of presenters and the annual salary of that in a few weeks.

Will have the presenters pay.

What can you tell us today about the changes that we're going to be in the top-10 there before winning the top-10 but?

The biggest change which shows of the journey that we've been on his if you go back to 2016 2017 we had 75% of those presenters earning over £150,000 when men 25% win the figures will be announcing when the annual report and accounts come out is in the last year we down to 55% men 45% women and we will get a 50/50 in this year.

I can't be around to say that but I know we'll get a 50/50 now in any order for any organisation to make that amount of change that rapidly.

I think that big big change and that's come because we've really wanted to make a difference and by the way we've got around 20% from black Asian and minority ethnic background as well.

So you know when making progress.

I think where we need to make more progress is behind the camera behind the microphone which is why we've announced 20% time get for again.

Minority groups behind the camera and I think that's a bit careful reform as we heard from David olusoga yesterday absolutely no talk to you about that is just cleared two things personally still get involved in dealing with the contracts and pay of top Talent managerial starred use of intravenous a weed pay this person walk.

You need to keep them that III up to you occasion occasionally I think that's that's much more.

I mean I think managers should manage but obviously people will also tell me if there's some large contract an important question of principle when you have similar programs.

Why do witches presented by a household name a famous person and one isn't should the household name be paid more the question is Gail and if without referring to any particular case the disparity should be ones which are justifiable and in.

What's the argument to justify equal similar work might be a man of my clear criteria by which you say if you're a house name of the auditors recognise you you have a value that is large and someone who's not Ana cause that may change over time.

I think that judgement, but it's something you've got to be able to justify these things frankly to other people and in public and with clarity and that's the reforms you can bring out bringing in other however bumpy they've been had a difficult start.

This is hard stuff.

You're dealing with you know very very sensitive creative people but whatever you do.

You've got to be able to Justified and layout very clearly why someone is worth X or y and Y the disparity between someone is one which you can justify.

I love you signed off until the big contracts would be able to throw up to you say we need Tony's approval to pay XY I watch very.

What's going on with contracts and will sometimes into the but it depends entirely on what does complex? Can you give us a sense and they won't name individual.

Can you give us a sense of who you had the most difficult conversations with is it the high-profile dentist? Is it the Producers on a radio program may be outside of London is it the media who this whole issue? Which is been a big one for you and which you have made progress progress on to be fair where you had the hardest conversations the most painful ones.

I think the hardest conversations are probably with the people who in front of camera front of of microphone.

It's about it some people that taking big cuts in and the BBC and some left and you know it all of them.

I say thank you because actually it was a good thing.

Let's look back at another talent management probably you inherited and that's Jeremy Clarkson I think he's actually a real Talent and that.

Very hard decision and he was a very special sort of person in the BBC but lucky go back to your values.

I mean Jamie did something that you just can't accept you just can't and that's why you know and any of these issues your values have to come in the news to him.

I did we met on a number of occasions and we've met since by the way and I am a big fan of of his and I I think I'm sorry he left it was a particular voice at the BBC can have needed but you can't accept Thompson your processor, but once said the clocks has pungent transgressive slightly out of control Talent with something in the BBC could afford to lose when I came back to the BBC there was a lot of write discussion about bullying and harassment.

And people felt strongly that some people got away with it and others didn't you simply couldn't let Jeremy get away with it because that would have said to everybody this culture for one set of people and there's a culture for the rest that degrees apart because when it came down to it.

You thought you was back deli Cohen you're dead director of television with whom did Danny but that was not the point in the point was it was what I felt were the right values that we had to stand up for and it was a loss.

Yeah.

This is a lot of Jeremy there's a lot of the program does a loss to what was then BBC worldwide you know this is not an easy judgement to take the easy would have been said ok.

You know reprimand move on but you couldn't do it in that case sadly because again I think he's a real Talent some people may not know they got pretty nice if you and your family is all done it.

Yes, it is I got death threats against my

Family and we had to move a home for a few days and and and have some protection absolutely firm that it was the right decision to make as I say with regret because I I'm a fan, but he's now Jeremy Clarkson's now having ensconced in happy.

It's gone to Amazon Prime well financially insurance.

I'm a BBC programme is doing extremely well.

It's found its feet and it's absolutely not quite under Jeremy Clarkson it's very good then this is an opportunity to look at the beauty competition when what is DG BBC iPlayer something like 40% ish of the UK market for online viewing 15% I think it comes out this will be clear.

I think we've this last year is a year of transition.

We have pivoted.

We've got to the point and I knew where there isn't it with a pandemic a pandemic before the pandemic.

We had pivoted where the drop-in linear.

People watching linear channels on television was compensated for by the uptick in the audiences to iPlayer why because of reforms and make a search in Discovery the fact that 9 million people have notified into the BBC is a big thing to build on in the future, but also because content can be on there for much longer which is again a very very good thing too.

So iPlayer is now working and we are promoting it in the way that it's not a catch up service which is when I came back to the BBC was it's now a destination in its own right and I feel very very confident that we can build on that in the future that corner has been turned, but isn't it doesn't just stand to reason that one of the reasons to be is lost market share because the Internet needs extraordinary company's most powerful companies in human history have fantastic and is it simply the case was a lot follows from this that the BBC cannot compete with some is companies in in terms of a lot of what they are doing.

Well.

I think we can and I think you can't you can't kill you.

UK market you have to accept the fact that I provided believe choices a good thing the arrival of Netflix's of Disney someone are profoundly good things for me as a consumer for us as consumers, but there's an awful lot of kind of sense therefore.

It's all over for the Old public service broadcasters.

Not so I think there is a role and you saw that role in The Cobra crisis joining together bringing people together in big audience bringing people together around news looking for Nutella forgiving calendar voice big role for the public service broadcasters going forward as long as we played that property as I get back and I think this year will be seen as a time when we pivoted from the kleine limit orders something where you can see the future and the future of the iPad and also by the way BBC sounds other change I've brought about in my time.

It's just you know it's fine to admit and to realise that with the internet you have unprecedented competition and that.

People in particular, I don't use the BBC in the way, they used to just to be clear why you're worried about the young people she's about universality isn't it's about the fact that if young people don't use the BBC does make it much much harder to argue the case for a licence.

He doesn't you you know you have to give something valuable and good to everyone and what we've been looking for taxis.

How do people judge value and people judge value by saying they spend a certain amount of time with the BBC rugby 5 hours a week or more more over a number of different channels and getting something about you and I think that's really important.

What's been sick again in covered in the overtime has been how young audiences have turn2us.

Not just for news, but friend attainment and also for the extraordinary education service with set up from you know almost zero in 2-3 weeks where 5 million people are now using us now.

That's 5 million people who have the BBC brand absolutely out there.

Open em and I think that will build a connection with that audience for the future, which I think is going to be really important and yet.

I guess we had on the media show who come to the conversation that they over the young hairdresser about their favourite BBC programmes.

They said they didn't watch the BBC instead.

They rattled off a list of the Netflix shows line of duty.

Peaky Blinders set of deals, was it not a mistake for the BBC and others to allow an American company Netflix to build this vast library of content using ASDA I'm a big fan of Netflix I think there are brilliant organisation and I take my hat off to 22 Reed Hastings what we've been going on at the last 5-years is we've gone from a point.

When do you know what we can do I need to support the licensee by selling library materials to Netflix and 2 others.

Content will come back to the BBC and you'll only fine on iPlayer that's my prediction for bottle having to speak of a contract which we've gotten and so on and what we've got it.

You've also got to do is to say ok, so what do we lose by not having those sales? How do we afford to make sure that we can live without the money coming from a sales and build iPlayer and what I am coming into 34 years time they'll be one gateway to the BBC it'll be through something called BBC player The BBC or whatever and all our comes and we'll be there and I think no one else they use the millions of people that speak English in India are related to anything.

Why would you have a director consumer subscription offering for those people? I think it's a very good idea and at the moment and and what we done instead.

Is is said of a whole new suite of language services which you may know of in India and those are going down fantastically well news on channels online news news.

Phone it's the audience building in India has been one of the I think really really big changes which means we're now informed and 68 times, but what about director that's the glory of Netflix there's a content and there's a frictionless distribution Amazon Prime Disney plus which is hugely and I think so, I think you're talk to offers one is and I said is I think the news business is one which is very difficult to make commercial sense out of and that's why I've been arguing with the government to say give us some more money we can get to a billion people globally and I really cannot believe that then we have been working with ITV on a thing called britbox and big box outside his country in the US and now he's going to go out as well, and I think that could be the breakthrough for us going to many many more places globally selling to people directly who were prepared to pay a fee to get our programs to regret that britbox didn't know sooner.

I don't spend my time with things.

I'm not that sort.

I'm an optimist.

I look forward and I'm impatient things.

I've always been patient.

I mean if there's any quizzes about myself is you know faster faster faster.

You gotta keep reforming and changing and and doing things but I'm going to regret about one thing vs.

The other we've told that the licence fee you've mentioned in inches.

You done that you've looked at alternatives to licence for somebody that you thought that was appointed principal throughout your career forward the BBC Corona forehead.

You mentioned earlier is mentioned by Craig which is a kind of household tax as a concept does that not make more sense than a licence because you can make it for you can link it to people's act as it happened the hazard fee in Germany is stuck because of the lender can't agree with how much should go up, so there's you know every system has it but I think we've got till 2027 to work through what we think of is a Fairway of funny the BBC in what's an appropriate way of funding that BBC and I think we should have a look at.

Tax at something which John pushing down when he was in government before that I select My Teacher taught about that's interesting.

I think finding ways in which at the licence fee can be charged maybe progressively, so you know those who can afford to pay more those who can't afford to pay less should be looked at should it be collected in a way on household bills council tax bills to cut down because all these things should be have a look at but the thing that you can't get away from his if you want to have something good at public service available to all then they have to be funded by all my subscription orgasm cable as there is a generally also editor-in-chief that something is required of you in the royal charter.

Why do only 44% of people trust BBC chance to tell the truth, it's at it's a very high figure of trust when you look at other media organisations.

We are the most trusted Media organisation by a good country mile and I think you've seen that.

Crisis when people come to us in very large numbers to get the news and information, they can trust you also been kind of see that when people ask, what is the news source you trust the most BBC comes out very very and it's actually declined faster for people working class only 37% of c2de adults trust the beauty to tell the truth middle cast 49% pilmoor to middle class people think you need to ask yourself all the time do people understand the values.

We didn't understand and feel that the news is dealing with issues in a way that they can understand and make sense of them are the voices they hear representing the communities in which they are things which are constant constantly Uppermost in the Minds of people who are running news and they they should be back but I go back when you look at who do you trust and

Trust globally the BBC comes out on top and that's really important editorial policy.

He said to her house of Lords committee last month it was better with the BBC lost touch with public sentiment on some stories about brexit.

We had issues about tracking the rise of euroscepticism across the BBC did we do the adequate no we didn't we we we had issues.

Do you say when I say around tracking the growth of concern about is St Teresa for that which is that there? Just aren't enough working class people at the BBC and too many a middle-class remain vote in credits.

So I think you have a really into question as it's something I believe in very strongly and diversity social diversity which is actually behind the question you're asking I think so.

I think really matters bringing people from all sorts of different backgrounds and perspectives really matters it matters regionally of your income and all that and I think the the next diversity it.

Oral-B achieving social diversity, what are the reasons I brought in apprenticeships and was told when I came back here.

I think they were some tens of apprentices in the BBC I said I want to want a workforce by the new charts in 2017.

We got to that within a year and actually I think now we have over 2.3 to 0.4% of our workforce because they can you bring in a European to BBC I profoundly believe that diversity of thought generates great program ideas.

You don't know where some Talent is going to be you know it could have come to me that she could come from other about means as well and so diversity of thought diversity of capture of being organisation really really matters and it can be one of our friends and what comes out of that are better programs that reflect the UK that we are seeking to serve political diversity matters to Angelo people have heard David during the said actually he's got a very senior figure a very experienced and Lucy confirming there were suspicions which

BBC is full of globus remainers well.

I don't think that's the case could actually do believe strongly that when you join the BBC you hang whatever views you have by your code on the door you coming here, so I don't believe that people are what I do think about what day was saying is we spend more time and any other edit or organisation.

I know discussing these things think about these things argue about anything looking at data and criticizing ourselves and I think that's really important as long that contain and impartiality is that why the BBC was very quick to rebuke Emily maitlis after her over the model the news about Dominic Cummings Dominic Cummings earlier this year.

I think Emily who is a fantastic broadcaster and I think the Tina any news that are doing absolutely great job.

I think there are ways in which you went over the limit my judgement, was you could say those things that she said in a way that didn't feel like an editorial and I think.

Very simple to do and I'm sad that wasn't done this weekend about the case and she said all I will say is we're not a news program.

We can be a bit cheeky, but I will say is we not a news program to agree with it.

I think Newsnight has always been since that time I was on Newsnight is a kind of pastry.

I have different kind of program does get underneath the skin of things are different rules on impartiality different program is not a defence for different reasons.

I think impossibility matters to the BBC I think there is a kind of a view out there that somehow impossibility is a negative thing.

It's not impossibility means you are going out Without Fear or favour sitting the truth and actually it's empowering and we think that doesn't great reported in the past.

That's what they've done and I think that idea impossibility is elevating.

Not a negative thing at all.

It's really important, but as all these things is David Jordan sun has lots of people have them you need to keep going out.

They're talking about this arguing about this and argue that these issues with all I journalistic and other Communities engineer about presenting Newsnight she done it.

I'm not going to go into should the Avengers that's all I can say is Andrew is a Talent and he's very wonderful broadcasting forest and I will be back again soon.

Talk about race and some BBC News colleagues.

I've been attacking me to raise deep concern that in their view the BBC has in effect become the broadcasting wing of the black lives matter movement 1 veteran highly respected correspondent.

He wrote to me.

I'm challenging Prejudice is a noble cause but should it be the BBC's cause shouldn't we just be reporting? What do you say to that? I think diversity matters.

Having a diverse employment really matters.

I think getting it right in terms of broadcasting has two so I think insuring that we are employing people of diverse backgrounds black Asian minority ethnic backgrounds both front and behind the camera is fantastic important ending that way I go back to that's the way you get that diversity of thinking into your program areas into your news bulletins into the dramas another thing that you that's why I had to say when making up reggaeton it having a fun to commission from existing money is 100 million pounds worth of content of programs diverse backgrounds important and equally having a 20% target for people behind camera and microphone from black and Asian minority ethnic backgrounds is important.

Appeal to younger more ethnically diverse audiences audience for good reasons.

You're not leaving people behind the BBC has got to appeal to a breadth of opinion and types of people right across the country.

What are the internet things about the BBC is you're dealing with all sorts of fishes in the UK society and you got that makes it harder social media a diverse country digital country is hard of the National institution for the BBC to the monarchy to be universal it is hard but that doesn't mean baleno life is alright, but it doesn't mean that's not the right a man died profoundly I mean profound.

It's one of you want to go back to the BBC and what I believe in Public Service Broadcasting I have really been it is who you are whatever background you come from rich poor whatever part of the country under living having things that you can share and common goods bringing together.

All have access to its finale in may I think broadcasting is part of our culture is not just a business is actually part of our culture and I think people should have equal access to culture good things it cultural good thing right across whoever, they are and that's why I Think Public Service Broadcasting and universality is so important what you just said a local so is completely undone by the BBC's use of the in a broadcast on point pressing the BBC news channel twice in July I have seen an email from a very senior editorial colleague was that BBC News which said and I quote I want to be absolutely clear about we are not apologising for this report and we are standing by it I have confirmed this with a director of editorial policy any statement we draught the complainants should reflect this position without absolutely unequivocal and get 10 days later.

You apologise profusely has said the editorial guidelines will be strengthened.

What changed in those 10 days, I felt strong.

This is a difficult story remember.

This is a story about abuse of somebody being hit and run but I felt using the n-word at the time a day in that report was a mistake these are difficult decisions and in the end occasionally I have intervened as director-general when it I thought it was right say no I typed this is what I believe and that's what I believe on it.

I will put you directly which is your instinct which always by several sources was that you was actually to hold the line to back David Jordan your director bellator on this issue, but that you were lobbied by members and beauty board.

You said they were going to be mass resignations among ethnic minority broadcasters if you didn't apologise is that correct I wasn't lobbied by a load of black members of staff ethnic minority, but I felt very strongly.

It was the right thing to do.

Nice and to make Leah are collected described about this but also to say an important thing about what I said likewise is to say we Gotta Learn from this and I really do think that as an organization.

We got to listen.

We've got to learn we should own up to our mistakes.

Can I say I'm I think owning up to mistakes is a sign of strength not a sign of weakness.

I think listening to what colleagues are saying is a sign of strength.

Not a sign of weakness and I think we came to the right conclusion.

I can't write conclusion that Sunday why wasn't where was the new director of creative June Sarpong not consulted with the decision to defend the use of the n word cookies email staff internally to confirm.

She wasn't part of the decision came to this on a Sunday I decided to review the case and look it up and get into the interstices of who who told to what when because the truth.

I don't know what I'm about is the principal and principle that.

Is the word no no, it's not an invite on the Friday before I apologise it was using the programme about the real thing and that was appropriate.

I went to all the guidelines and probably done.

No, it's where when how often and so on we need to think very very hard about it.

That's what we're doing you mentioned overdose mactaggart lecture he said that many things I know to be with if you feel crushed and marginalized.

Why is it I think the word and and I think I I listen to David this morning on the Today programme and was granted what he was saying he also could see a kind of Turning Point and I think he's Lecture was very honest.

He's obviously thought about it as he is enormously carefully and for me the word we need to listen to is inclusion which is people should feel that they can say what they were.

And feel that they can give their ideas to people who are running them feel safe in the workplace to say what they think and I think that's a good thing and I think we've always got work to do to make people feel secure in the workplace survey.

Come up why doesn't matter I go back but I think great programs come out of people of all sorts of different views giving their very best ideas sometimes that not great sometimes.

They are great.

You don't know where are great ideas going to come from and feeling safe to do that in a workplaces important Britannia and Land of Hope and Glory ever going to drop the Last Night of the Proms look with I think my view about the promises.

It's a miracle that David Pickard and a team of an important which is to have two weeks of music at the end of the prom season of live music that's really really huge amount of noise the social media the culture secretary.

Was there a discussion that BBC about dropping those songs because of their association with Britain's imperial come to the conclusion which is actually the whole thing has been my David and his colleagues of course it has but the point is have come to the right conclusion which is it's very very hard in an Albert Hall that takes over 5000 people to have the atmosphere of the Last Night of the Proms and I have things where a whole audience normally sing-along.

It's quite hard creatively artistically to make that work and I think that comes with my conclusion which is actually two included instrumentally and who knows what will happen next week.

I suspect it will be back on the question of practicalities to do with a pandemic on the question of the principal.

Do you think would you have you been posted? Would you be happy for the lyrics that song to be some despite any Association it might have we bring simple past the the factors with come to the right conclusion which is a creative and artistic conclusion which is you know it's there and it's there in the middle.

Instrumental playing around sea shanties and and all of that are suspected to be back next year got some questions to finish off with theirs been talking Nicky Morgan upset you being the next chairman of the BBC about government course we don't worry about that.

Are you worried about the next term in which are women appointment becoming making a BBC part of a kind of Tory psychodrama? I hope the next chairman of the BBC works closely with Tim as an annexe director-general and their first task is to win a good licence.

We certainly will probably be settled next summer that's the first task and said when you announce your departure the well-placed sources told me holes preference was to stay until the corporations antenna 22 but the BBC's chairman David Clementi was on Maneuvers to replace him now absolutely not and can I say I think very few director-general of the

The luxury of deciding their own the timer going to retire that's that's my that was my decision my decision only so absolutely wrong on that is exactly strong beautiful survivors, linear channel BBC3 will come back as an any channel.

I think that depends a lot on how old is his supposed to go with environment? I think what we seen with cold has people gain more On Demand so I think it's a bit.

Hope it's a close.

Call me actually looking at selling of buildings to raise revenue I think what is that we can do with your buildings.

I'll be surprised.

You wouldn't sell for a few buildings.

Did you vote remain? I'm not going to tell you but I vote at any point and by the way.

I'm not it was worth a try.

What's the editorial creator of your 10 you seen drama flower in the way has done seeing Blue Planet change people's behaviour on plastics seeing you.

Help with crisis of the crisis of the crisis with future plan and actually getting out there in to local radio stations.

I've not quite finished also I went sadly and listening to the impact that local radio house for example in Sheffield on the floods in Cumbria on the floods and that sense of local voice that comes from local radio.

I absolutely love what I shall miss in case you want to ask me is getting out there on the shop floor with people making programs at hard to program maker and the great privilege of being here running the BBC programme makers doing amazing things.

I have never known a time when we have one so any awards for the programs that we made and in the end the argument about the BBC is about the pro and the services we provide are they of the highest possible quality and small to do with me to do with a many many people in this organisation to do amazing things to serve the public with brilliant programme.

This moment of your tenure at the moment might any was walking in the front door at the very beginning and thinking where do I start? How do you write your performance to the job out of 10? I never rate my own performance play.

Have a father who left his no one of the with me who constantly haunts me because he always says have you done enough? Have you push yourself enough and that is a problem.

I'm never satisfied with my performance ever is for other people to judge that I know it's feeling all thank you very much indeed for your time.