Read this: Bake Off rises out of lockdown

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello, it's been one of the biggest reporting project of all time the thin send files have expose possible corruption in the financial sector Russian oligarchs using big-name banks to avoid sanctions a suspected the moving a billion dollars to a London account 18 months in the making over 400 journalists in 88 countries coming through 8 Rover secret US government documents juicy scoops proper stuff and in a moment.

I'm going to be speaking to one of the reporters at BuzzFeed news about how they got hold of the documents and pulled it off and it dirty money and global intrigue isn't your thing how about the Great British Bake Off it was back on their last night as some of you may have noticed and so Ian Katz channel four's director of programmes is here in at welcome back to the show you manage to get the at the series of Bake Off finished.

All those hurdles to overcome and then at the very last minute the prime minister goes and schedules a special announcement for down street right at the same time how angry with you about that be honest and a half years was having the 2 commission as a channel for who loving you look after Bake Off Kelly weblearn is Sarah Lazenby that their job is carrying a big bars across a shiny floor and this year was more valuable than ever and the floor was a lot shiny.

Why was it more than ever this year this year bake.off.on like after a year of relentless grimness and financial hardship and financial.

That more than ever the country needed a blast of the good old warmth and wholesomeness of the 10th.

Where are you know the worst thing ever goes wrong as it on the floor as I've seen it many times did rated very well despite the meaning of the prime minister.

Good audio Sunshine of 7 million the prime minister speaking on BBC One at that time but I am more from you shortly at also with us is Jonathan Haywood who's executive director of something called the public interest use Foundation Jonathan could have you back and show to what is the foundation and why should we care good to be back on the show the foundation is something that gets up earlier this year having noticed that there is a growing sector in the UK of small independent mostly non-profit news organisations.

It's taking a great untold.

Good story of digital disruption we all know that the challenges that the big big Media Legacy newspapers a facing but at the same time and got a really great journeys to that she gone off and started doing it for themselves.

What were trying to do at the foundation is to pull in funding to provide grants and training networking and coaching and everything basically these guys need to turn their really high quality that small journalism outfits into something a bit more sustainable and resilient for the long-term good news this week would be registered as a charity this happens often does an exciting but actually could be hugely significant why it's going to piss all the exciting in the world of journalism and if you're working in health care or children's rights or animal welfare.

You wouldn't be very surprised to have a charity but in the world of journalism.

There are very few charities and that's because the charity commission which regulates charities in England and Wales

Always been really nervous about journalist and they've always worried a journalism might be a bit too political Itsu rabble-rousing and maybe not ethical enough and that's already held us back in this country estates.

There's a really vibrant non-profit news sector where they have what they call 501 c 3 stasis that's taking us equivalent to transport status and asra's over the last 1020 years they have pulled in tens and tens of millions of Dollars into that sector said get for the first time and journalism charity set up that is absolutely fine legally now allowed to raise funds and to spend those funds on on journalism in the public interest is potentially a really big steps are very significant moment in the history of the Institute is good of you to come on.

Thank you John to hear from you shortly.

I wanna start with the bins in France been sent is the Us treasury's financial crimes enforcement network and a load of the secret Centre

Turn this they be making headlines all week around the world.

There was a Panorama on Monday about it the scale of this investigation makes this something of a landmark in journalism, and I want to find out more about how it went azeen ghoreishi is an editor at person you to 18 months ago started trawling through this enormous is vastly gov documents.

She's also the host of a new BuzzFeed podcast about the project and she's on the line now from just north of New York is in very good to have you with us.

Take it back to the very beginning if you would give us a sense about BuzzFeed news.

Got hold of your smiles come on.

This is the moment give it all the way to Leeds on a project in 2017 when President Donald Trump

Into started looking into and possible financial connections between people his for bed and Russia and basically heroin in many ways and the more navigation and as they basically figured out that the best way to take the money and the proof of concept of this actually and was born out of them getting access to one of these documents are filed by based and they basically scooped the special counsel and this was.

I was looking at as well and basically a proof-of-concept for a powerful the very secret documents and also Faso causes and it was as you say, what must a parallel investigation to Malta because yeah that wasn't very high-profile things people knew was happening few people knew what you and your team.

Had when you've got a collection of these sorts of very sensitive documents presumably first.

Will you go to verify them? So they're not fake then you're going to take your meds precautions to cost of them what precautions should you take to do those two things to verify and look after them?

Can you just did you get it as well done is it on a USB stick is it a load of paper files? I mean you know that we're outstation out with things like the WikiLeaks files of the guardian report on when he was working there where we know a bit about the physical manifestation of how these documents are these reports ended up with a garden in your case, is it all on one precious USB stick was it in files that were delivered to a particular post office or what so that the investigation should be part of an international project with these teams of journalists from different organisations working on it together during this reporting running down that were working around it.

Realised you know what they actually had and as we were sitting on something much much bigger than you know trump trump Associates this was really just walk into a window into the club all these transactions that are paining around internationally that makes are aware of my criminal and realised oh shit like this is not something we can do on her on to give me I've got it is 4:40 in there in the UK and I've got apologise to Radio 4 so forgive me for any radio for listeners offended by that term I'm sure you're doing it as a colloquial fashion, but we're not allowed to use that word forgive me carry on there, but it's a sincere apology from.

Offended by those four letters.

I think you and give it to the world and somehow managed to pull a secret that many people are interested.

It's a lot of very very trustworthy people so to each other a bit of that is a lot of you gonna be able to trust and other people.

Can you mention the international Consortium of investigative journalists John to let me bring back on that subject cos I of course have non-profit status in the US and the concept of journalism and charity as you mentioned.

It's relatively novel in UK

This a cause Jonathan was that Dame Frances cairncross recommended in her with you for the government on how quality journalism could be funded in the future right.

That's right.

Yeah, so she said the state of you know what she describes as public interest news, so not not not entertainment and not some other stuff that you get in there in the papers are on broadcasters, but they couldn't use that the kind that has is talking about serious investigations.

You know serious community news that enables people to take a take part in in the lives of their communities all that stuff is facing a profound market failure in the 20th century responded by advertising advertising as we all know has just migrated en masse to online and particularly to social media and search engines so Frances cairncross and said look in the long-term.

Maybe we will find some new business models for news for public interest journalism, but certainly.

Maybe even the long-term we're gonna need to bring more money into this and she is the government's look at the possibility of charitable.

I think you can come home which is what sort of attempts were with me to stop you from publishing the stuff.

I can't imagine the how much do lawyers employed by various people who don't want to serve in the public domain actually cost per presumably people got very heavy with you was coming statement saying that they should never be disclosed and that they were referring the keys to the Department of Justice which is a pretty big move on there.

And you no answer and you know that and you know we were just taking this information and jumping at this is not you know a WikiLeaks situation and it's huge impact about a mastery points have to let you know.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us in and congratulations on this is mega scoop news.

Let me bring you mentioned that this new model yours charitable kind of journalism is something which is a new thing in the UK and you'd like to presume refund this kind of thing would you like me to get to The Place Where You founded big exposes like the fence and bars.

Journalists watch them develop over the last 1015 years in this incredible global hub for big investigative stories and icij is funded by individual donors and trusts and foundations and you know in the UK we have had a barrier to those sorts of donors coming in and supporting journalism, so if we can get anywhere near where the sector is we will have a much better chance of having a healthy Media a little bit of that money.

We only got off the ground on the 1st of March and obviously within 3-weeks.

We're all you know working from round and home like the rest of the country and but we really quickly then really was Ashley lockdown with a particular problem for this kind of sector these smaller independent news publishers didn't want to follow themselves because they really believe in.

Doing I wanted to keep doing it but any any revenue that they did have them advertising fell off a cliff and actually really struggle to get government to pay any serious attention to them the government put £35 into the newspaper industry, but didn't directly in any of that to these smaller non-profit players that you're really angling for could anyone applied to to your organisation that could apply for you for helping you various criteria.

So this is partly in order to find our way through charity law to get PIN established as a charity so for a start.

We we only support use impartial politically impartial so can't be strongly affiliated with one of the other side of the political spectrum and obviously we can't give money to someone who's then just going to take that and pay it and David bonuses to a private shareholders or directors.

It's going to be clearly sort of for the public benefit, but it could be a big organisation or a small one.

It's not about that.

It's about the the way that.

Journalism and their commitment to having really high high standards sector in the months following lockdown back in May June and since that we've been working with those properties that be supported running a series of workshops and trying to help them develop new revenue models or develop new tools like podcasting that they want to do to reach new audiences and that group speed of Fantastic we've had people with diverse it's a gold Mr you spoke to the week last week and Westmorland Herald this been going because I know I can hear the Echo people telling me off.

I don't you previously worked with round in Prestwich was the regulator is partially funded by Max Mosley is he giving you any money for this organisation for the time being funded in kind by impress.

They're still pay my salary to get this up and running but we started to call him money from other sources.

Little Britain other things include channel within for Segways here, because I could make reference to the funding holder Channel 4 and probably loves loads of winners for the Tech companies another give us I could acknowledge the fact that started early you get jealous of the Guardian through that WikiLeaks ago, but I know talk to you about the biggest you of my mind which is baking and Bake Off is be back on later on 7 p.m.

BBC1 you see more of them.

Let's get serious.

This is a tough time for broadcasters.

You've had a load of staff.

It's very difficult for many people in the industry back in April you said channel forward-facing a 50% advertising slump in May and June how did it came out was it that bad getting away from the fact that this has been one of the toughest years if not the toughest year anyone can remember for commercial broadcasters.

I mean I said back in April we were hit by double whammy because we lost hundreds of hours of probe.

To production that got to scrub to look completely stopped by covid and we saw our revenues plunging right at the beginning of the Crisis by 56% for those first 4 months, so as you probably know we are pretty drastic steps.

We we made quite substantial cuts to our content budgetary made quite substantial customer operating that we do take the decision to keep commissioning through the crisis both so that we could react editorially to the the news the country needed for a PSP like Channel 4 but also so that we can do what we could keep the industry taking over to that through that period the Independent producers.

Are you lying on your own and I think that that approach has really paid off.

I mean.

I'm I'm glad to say the housing market has bounced back to a match.

Extending I think any of us could hope for and our audiences have been incredibly strong audiences are up across all demographics particularly you give us where we seem really substantial gains over the last 6-months or so about that more than half of the biggest shows the young viewers across the lockdown period on Channel 4 directly sitting in still just about September I think we're in a much happier and healthier place, then we dared to imagine that might be that's fantastic reassuring that is good to know the advertising about the specifics.

You did put out a number of specific digits and numbers of figures back in April you said you were going to face a 50% advertising slapping May and June did that 50% stamp materialized and you said you were coming 150 million out of your 660mm programming budget specifics did.

Simple by more than 50% in May and June yes, I can't give you the exact figure with the material of the Order of 50% and 850 million aside from your programming budget if you had to cut more than that or is it stayed with that 50 million out of it which is a very very tough thing to do you probably know the channel entire content budget is around 600 million, so that is a very very substantial.

Ok portion of that as the conditions have got better towards back end of the year without just started putting some money back into the into the budget and actually targeting it at the kind of Indians who we most want to be able to support these images is sure to give him that we meet independent producers and a lot of them listen to the show they have been flower Channel 5 give a very clear description the source programs he's after.

What are you looking for from India this is your moment to tell him the Independent sector what you're looking commission right now controlling the budget that you do.

Well, so which we have a sort of challenging year ahead of us because although revenues have substantially picked up with quite a Kyle of uncertainty about what happened in the wider economy, so next year's budget will certainly be better than this year's but probably not as high again 2019 was and at the same time we bounced content out of this year and it's next year.

So there is a sort of concertina effect on next year's budgets which means that we have relatively less targets if you like your target to aim at next year, then.

We would too similar point in the year, but we are absolutely still in the market for the thing yeah, I was looking for a year ago which were incredibly distinctive shows that's what it shows that can only be on Channel 4 that you could only see Isle of Wight if you looked at the channel.

After Bake Off you have seen the right off switch was an absolutely quintessentially Channel 4 programme a really entertaining piece of structured reality exposed in which Sandi Toksvig took a bunch of adults who couldn't read and explore the issue of electricity to incredibly entertaining and I think that that flavour is is a very Channel 4 wildest things are getting more succinct description you give us a ring if you can be tougher Channel 4 that we have not been in the market for the big expensive high-volume shows and we absolutely are in the market.

Ok looking at your rating the big hit is Gogglebox Bake Off location location location to commission for your time that you've been in the job for three is where's your Gogglebox?

Well, and I've absolutely delighted that shows like Gogglebox which I was looking at inherit have gone from strength to strength and if you look at last Friday's Google what's a second years to get to the level that app right.

It's it's it's running at more than double the size.

It was even you know 3 or 4 years ago.

We have got a new generation of shows which at lunchtime I watch in summer whichever return once and will be returning again some of which have been out once and will be returning soon shows like snack Masters or Joe lycett's got your back or house which is just been nominated for Greyson this week or Five Guys was just came on in the second series this week or call the cops which is having a really good Run II series at the moment.

Or shows like your grace and spa club which we launched in the teeth of kovid a popular arts really kind of democratic party which turned out to be a ratings hit and will be bringing back next year as I guess it does it does take time to build a question and it's only fair this shows a given a chance to look at another one of your recent commissions which is Steph McGovern's new shows desktop at lunch started last Monday it's on at 12:30 p.m.

It's getting back 1.3% share and 100000 viewers that is a real keep getting a real cool.

Steph McGovern BBC she's warm clever.

Mischievous is a journalist with a big brain real pedigree.

What's your vision for the for the show? What's it original distinctive about it over there's definitely being in Leeds

Well, I mean those two things are not in significant aspect of its identity, but I think if you were to ask if she would say that it's a show about real people real people's experiences.

It's not a celeb driven show it's not entirely daily news agenda driven show it's a pound.

It's a film about the real lived experiences of people across this country and I think the last week.

You'll see it's got already a help lovely different feel about it then most of the other very good daytime shows that it's I'm thrilled house.

Got over the last week.

I think Steph has been spectacularly poised and fresh and shirt and the cost around hair is really shaping up in smalltalk, they want on it.

Isn't there there's a lot of small talk with her someone who's got such a big brother and sister pedigree ratings wise where does it need to get to and I win?

Why I wouldn't set her a Hard Target later you will know better than anyone and daytime shows take ages to become established if you look at the trajectory of summer fantastic day time taken of years and years and years to get where they are when they do succeed they have a transformative effect on the schedule.

They completely alive and the schedule a get a crackle and just to be clear.

I mean we're not trying to produce something like the brilliant Victoria Derbyshire show with Steph it's not it's not unusual kind of airshow, but yours is the lead show that touches on the way people live their lives so your own schedule is an audience research that there wasn't much for an audience we captured in this lunch time slot.

Why did you put it at lunchtime and not on at tea time?

Did they tell me that I'm insured remember that there are at 17 or 18 when traditionally some other daytime shows have gone at my view is that starting up daytime schedule originated daytime schedule with a really vibrates show that's that delivers some energy and electricity to the schedule running in downtown and running into some of the fix shows that we have any after you like place in the sun and put a bed that have been absolutely on fire for the last 6-months or so will give a jolt of electricity to a shed will end up running all the way through its prime.

Very very very clean marks off sometimes couple of weeks ago that he looked at emerging between Channel 4 and Channel 5 21 years ago.

That's something you like to happen.

No, I'd look like if you look at the year.

We just had we talked about at the moment ago going to go.

I'm going to go 10 seconds tells you it's not something you're looking at it's not so you like her family partnership between broadcast.

This is a good thing or anywhere on the horizon.

Thank you very much for your time.

Don't do programs from both been used and Jonathan Haywood executive director of public interest news Foundation I'll be back next week.

See you then.