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Read this: #141 - Sir Harold Evans; Radio 1 Dance; Apple News Today; Edinburgh TV Festival 2020

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#141 - Sir Harold Evans; Radio 1 Dance; …

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Hello and welcome back to a brand new series of the media podcast.

I'm only man will a new streaming service make the BBC the dance can audio versions of print articles help save the world's biggest newspapers and his arts journalism on its last legs plus the big themes from the First School Edinburgh TV festival and in the media quiz we celebrate the winners of the pandemic the first major industry award show since the start of a pandemic.

It's all to come in today's Media well.

I hope you are well.

I'm good thanks for asking and welcome to our Michaelmas term it's going to be a weird year for the industry.

That's for sure.

Sounds to help us navigate those choppy Waters that's welcome.

I guess first up for metabroadcast and now head of Communications at ITN Lisa Campbell's back on the show hello Lisa please ITN 65th anniversary this week, which I believe is the blue sapphire.

It is indeed.

Yes, you celebrating we actually partnered with my with crowd at broadcast.

We've got a microsite running which is freely available for everyone to check out the some fantastic stuff on there actually we've got a timeline start with the 50s and 60s First News broadcast actually had the first female news broadcaster, and there's also an interview with her where Barbara Barbara Mandell and she is she's brilliant.

You know she sort of saying back in those days.

We weren't allowed to do Wars and earthquakes.

We had to just do cookery.

So it's quite an insight as you know the moon landings which part of the ITN sort of blue the competition at the water that somebody is Cathy Newman takes us behind the scenes on her very famous interview with Max Mosley could have got him to admit about his racist pamphlets and talks about him being in the green room with him and it's just it's really fascinating actually that sort of story and then we got next week so talking about his interview with Idi Amin I won't spoil the punchline, but essentially he ends up on an aeroplane on his private jet with him.

Idi Amin falls asleep and Jon Snow spots.

He's gone so yes Read All About It next week lots of a folder media and the guy who got at Matt on Twitter Matt Deegan hello mate.

You got to be on the last show of the last series and the first show of the series wonder what that means and your availability.

Been waiting here.

So what have you been up to? So we've just recording the second series of nappy days, which is the team mum UK podcast for MTV and with my British podcast Awards pass on you have to take a note for the Australian podcast Awards just been doing work on that as well.

Been at work on I guess learning some lessons from your lockdown ceremony by right.

How are you planning a live event? No so Australia has colours mix lockdown at the moment.

So it's gonna be another virtual ceremony in Australia what they've been doing in the last 4 years and having a bit in the UK to do a ceremony in November it's very exciting as well.

Really interesting get involved in the Australian podcast sector and talking to a lot of the operators and producers and seeing whether a difference is a celebrities with here and what we can all blown from and last but not least we welcome back we found our production house gold Wala it's my favourite Faraz Faraz Osman hello that you've been tweeting about the new Xbox is that a Gambit to get a free one and if not, what is the significance you think of this moment in video gaming? I'm a bit of a Nerf video games industry.

I think there's a fascinating space that you know we've done a few programming bits and pieces Around video games nothing to discolored like to do but I think that space is really really interesting and it's just going to completely dominate popular Colchester was the end of the year until the biggest product launches that will probably have the biggest our spend probably and then for the next.

Previous few years both launching that similar sort of time and I think it is a really interesting space in INTECH and popular culture and entertainment yeah nuts and like the thing I was treating about is Microsoft buying it as the studios for an obscene amount of money.

I can't even remember like 1400 million some other guys are behind Classics like Doom and more stuff like Skyrim which have been complete powerhouses in in The Videogame for a while.

It was a bit of a surprise move.

What's interesting is it with what makes of the doing if they have a cervical games pass which is effectively the Netflix for games and so there's going to be joining that server send and the looming war between Playstation and Xbox that's their kind of that's their firing shot for it's going to be really fascinating way of how we can see Media it's we've revolutionize music.

BBC revolutionize with with on-demand and Microsoft trying to do the same video games and it's just a case of are the old guys going to win with the PlayStation model or is it going to be this new wave of a new type of media content with the Xbox in the industry as a whole is the one that hasn't got a bit because of coronavirus.

Isn't it? Because you know on mic audio products for computers or you know theatre.

That's life events.

You know the videogame something always done at home and it's something you can produce from lots of people yeah, and then from whatever you think of Resident and and see it's it's it's just growing exponentially because it was being sucking their homes and it's the highest form of quality entertainment content that you can't hear you don't go to Cinemas play video game you know the only place that place to play video game is at home and and that's what it will be stuck for a little while so so yeah, it's nice player video game.

Launch Batman Arkham City and I was invited along for Preston for you and I sat in an IMAX cinema and was given control to be Batman and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing exactly when they say that you to make you feel better and also to try and make you feel like you're a really good game and like obviously you know what you're doing.

So and I was just at pulling and crashing into buildings anyway before we start the show is it still hasn't started yet folks.

We should probably mention Harry Evans passing a veteran British American journalist the Harold Evans inspiration was Alesha in Britain's journalism absolutely I remember doing my journalism training course and you get your reading list and it's all the the boring spelling for journalist and everything and then you don't you talk about Harold Evans and Reid has spoken just you know you think so inspiring so much that the one managed.

You know from his investigation into the drug thalidomide and the impact that has you know so many investigations, but we we know we were so in all of him and it's you know interesting working at ATM now when you talk to the journalist about who inspires them and who you know who led them into their career Harold Evans nearly always mentioned you know he's absolutely you know godlike status for journalists, and he was a really big Society figure with his wife Tina brown and in magazines and publishing as well and yet the thing people are remembering info on his death really seems to be the seat of the truth.

Yeah and perhaps that's because that's what we're all really craving at the moment.

You know where we're in a world of declining trust in and fake news, you know people.

Tobit information or there's there's so many so much miss information you never seen all the disturbing stories about people drinking bleach.

There's now will the anti vaxxers and you know with think there's definitely just a desperate climber for you know the media that we can trust journalist that we can just people don't proper in-depth investigations that that we can rely on and I will quite nostalgic for those times when you had publications and journalist like that and they just was not the Welsh social media.

I suppose you know causing all the trouble that it's causing right ok, let's get on with the proper agenda now.

We're going to start with some radio news this week with the launch of a new dance music streaming service from the BBC Matt Willis in on this one.

Scary on BBC sounds only so it's not on Broadcast it's going to take dance programming from Radio 1 but also from the wider BBC and sort of remix it into a radio station.

It's quite a long time ago and then it went quite particularly pre lockdown and then it just announced it recently and today Ofcom approved.

It's to be able to be to launch and launching first second week in October turn on Broadcast Davy in one of his first speech is said you're the BBC's not going to do any new linear broadcasting launching new radio stations on most platforms unless they were to take away something and replace it with something so I think this is this is the first linear Channel 4 BBC

I don't imagine it'll be the last and I know that the BBC and BBC Radio has seen what the clash of Texas on with spin-off channels you can absolute absolute 90s bit of would like a bit of that's like the races in BBC grey.

There is also review you know for the BBC where they've been tasked by the way my others about you reaching youth audiences.

Will do things differently they have to launch some new services to achieve those aims and I guess it's one of those interests test wasn't needed but understandably not everybody in commercial radio is happy about that.


I don't I don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

I think that they're like most music.

There are two forms of music that are really poppy commercial stuff that KISS FM and and various radio stations do really really well, but my senses that comes to dance music a little bit like 6 Music and guitar music.

Get there is a really burgeoning independent seen lots of new artist that breakthrough in that space that the Radio 1 have championed and I'm very very early on in my career.

That's that's why I started working in the section about your island and you can just tell the support of that world and an exploding kind of was was really helped create the industry and so I kind of feel a good thing.

I think that really want to go really good pedigree and heritage in this face particularly when it comes to British dance music and and I can see the value in this.

I think I agree that it doesn't need to be a linear rail station if it was that would be more problematic but beyond that I think that is this just helps most of the BBC sounds what you mean about kisses more commercial and has a Titan list and hot dancers more retro standby radiocentre said you know we're pissed off about this because it's the kind of thing that commercial radio could do.

I think it's the Sorting really does do well.

That's kiss fresh Kisstory Kiss capital Xtra there's quite a few new entrance to doing dance music.

I don't kiss is Bisto specialist weekends evenings, so I can understand why they grumpy I think the prom with BBC expansions are they do huge amount of work internally to get it to the point where it launches fully formed but that always ends up being a surprise to everybody else they they they get annoyed annoyed because they've been working on it for 18 months and this first episode about it.

I'm a bit surprised that maybe they didn't try and do something perhaps a little bit more public service first, so if I was launching Radio 1 spin-off channels maybe something around BBC introducing might have been a good idea.

I mean Lisa what radio one really needs as its lifeblood is young audience will this do the trick for them? Well? I do think broadcasters have to go to where the audiences are and they have constantly changing their output to cater for them and they're BBC is about universal appeal and so whether you think dance music is not is not something the BBC should be doing because the markets doing it.

Is you know again.

It's up argument of should the BBC only do what the market is failing to do you know I don't think it should I think the BBC does have to appeal to a broad range of tastes and you know if you're on people but they have to attract young people because they will die death of the highest.

You know if you think they back in the day and I come home from school and listen to Steve Wright in the afternoon with with friends and we talked about that.


You know you are more likely to.

About selling sunset all the latest TiK ToK dance craze you know they are definitely tuning out of mainstream programming so you have to respond Absolute 80s as a comparison was quite revealing one I think because all those portfolio stations were created by commercial brands that they can say to advertisers look this many whatever 1834 engaging with the absolute brand which is bullocks.

Really isn't in the sentence Absolute Radio the main radio station is the one that the Advertiser will be thinking of when that using me to target and if Radio 1 do the same kind of smoking mirrors isn't it acceptable for a commercial company to do but if the BBC says look at the young audience Radio 1 is pulling in and really what I mean is Live Lounge on YouTube and Radio 1 on BBC sounds not the same as the main channel you could argue that it doesn't really matter bums on seats for the BBC a bums on seats with are listening to a stream on an iPhone on BBC sounds all there.

Listening on fm202 Radio 1 in the morning, I think I'm the commercial radio side the main reason that the spin-off launch was provide more commercial impacts for advertisers to advertise is generally buying volume rather than kind of Nisha audience is generally for commercial radio show continues to get old for example.

Is it acceptable to dance and I would I give it for you all of their output across all of their brands products portfolio.

They would need all of them to remain young and turning Radio 1 into ready 1/2.

I don't matter going to do that, but I will want them to do that.

They can't get her eyes public service or getaways used the channel still in keep mainstream services that become competitive to commercial radio shouldn't we wouldn't want to see that would want to see that.

I don't say that.

I'm not entirely convinced her ready one dance.

Particularly younger audience Radio 1 does already I think actually that station will attract people that are in the midst of early to mid to late thirties that kind of did well part of that house scene and try and reduce or Radio 1 and what pizza was doing and Seb Fontaine and and and that kind of Hay Day of Ibiza Chillout heart is etc.

That's that's what I think that station and I'll be surprised if it's going to attract a particularly younger demographic.

I think if they want to do that, then they should be looking to more towards what one extras doing and and building more content of the back of that I think that it's so it's not the dance part of Radio 1 that attract the audience is its continued to a comedy on the celebrity and Pop Culture side of it 1Xtra there's new headers station there as well Matt farriner me know about him.

So he's putting on that floor in that bill did quite a while.

I working on marketing across Radio 1 and 1 Extra he's been involved in quite a lot.

Which campaigns for for the BBC and has been involved in some of the podcast that one extra have done to soak an appointment coming from the marketing size obviously the big person to do that was Tim Davey when he was head of BBC Marketing and ended up running BBC Radio obviously he's back as well.

So it is an interesting appointment from my point of view what I seen in working with you and radio stations the key thing to drive consumption is awareness.

I know people who maybe and hers extra haven't sampled 1Xtra yeah.

It's a big task now to get any audiences and especially young audiences to consume something you so actually putting a marketing person in charge of that station at the point where you know one extras growth has been good along with this radio station as maybe plateaued perhaps a good time to get a marketeer and trying out forward.

Mistajam on of the big Talents on Radio 1 already, won dance Radio 1Xtra is off.

Where do you reckon he's going to throw the inception of 1Xtra rent? He is a real store in that space, but I think he's not the finest broadcasters in the UK so I think it's really interesting to see where he is.

Going to go get what I mean.

Look Charlie Sloth a dot at both lesson went to apple apple.

Just rebranded their stations from beach 12 being apple music One and have nots couple of other stations as well, so that's a possibility.

My sense is it jam is more than just a presenter and radio presenter.

I think that he is industry Titan and my hope is a heel can't get behind the scenes in may be moved to a label and Andrew champion new music in the way that he's been so passionate about for a while.

I think it personally I think it would be a shame if another presenter is.

From the BBC to summer like apple on Spotify I think that's not a necessary positive thing for for us to continue to build up Talent on on airing in the UK and then leave them to digital weird.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the audiences is there in the same way or certainly not as interactive so my hope is he's gonna re-emerge as it a label and Infants British music moving forward.

That's why we like you for us.

It's the Bold predictions and she sticking with where are you up to? Speak with BBC Talent potentially going elsewhere Lisa another story from BBC Radio of the small Radio 4.

I guess is that some of the corporation crisis teams national radio journalist are now being asked to retrain and effectively reapply for their jobs as multi-platform report is this is to streamline Newsroom so you're talking about.

The people who make those two beautiful packages that here on p.m.

Hugh Sykes and Becky Milligan is it realistic to expect them to reach Jewellers digital and TV reporters is that the right thing to ask them? Yeah? I mean I have to say I was a bit sad when I saw this because I thought you know that those radio voices.

Are you know some of them so iconic and defined British history and lots of the library times.

We had from you know from walls and you know even start from the pandemic.

You know it's it feels like it's a very specialist skill and you know you're starting from a completely different place when you're creating radios when you're crazy television and of course you know your skills are transferable as a journalist, but I think I don't know if they're necessary abandoning these skills it I think that you know we're looking at the future talking about podcast.

Radio for ages you know this is exactly the thing that people are really engaging with now is audio and then the BBC goes and decides actually we're gonna we're going to scrap that so it seems a bit of a strange move in the current climate, but then I guess Matt it's a case of levelling it out because this has been happening for a while in local museums sure I think I think there will always be out like sewer specialists and I assumed that they will still be audio specialist in the BBC but I think to say generally if your report it was a lot of it is coming from the BBC on the last people to press conferences and interviews if you are at the heart of a story suddenly you get no 20mm enquiries and 8 of them from the BBC that you can't run out an operation that way so I think it's more connected to that then.

It's we want to get rid of a specially formulated packages to think about those huge News programmes on Radio 4.

Millions of people listening and then I watch it was brilliant actually because that was crying when she said that I didn't realise that because it's actually just an audio version of the TV package.

I'm a different kind of weird insist people make them for both things when so popular that we have to get to the point where there is duplication of of work and I don't think there's any doubt that we need to be more efficient with resource.

He's going to do what where I'm not entirely sure that this is the solution but I think we do need to start trying things out and making sure that you know we are getting at duplication across the board and figuring out how we can just drive costs down, but also you know when content is moving a Sony different spaces at the same time if you've got somebody that is able to package up something that.

The podcast and existing video and existing online and get a wider audience in different mediums to the same piece of content that's that I would argue is generally a good thing.

I think that need to make sure that those are the reasons for doing it and it's not just the cost-cutting exercise cause because that will never work.

It's got to be looking at the audience and figuring out how the audience is assuming things in lots of different ways and the integrity of the stories good as it can be fantastic skill to be able to tell stories without pictures and that you know absolutely thumbs up some of those flagship programmes that you've been talking about and I think you know what you sometimes here in the newsrooms in in TV is you know there are no pictures with that therefore the stories dropped.

There's so much.

There is actually a brilliant story but you just don't have the visual material to sustain it.

I think that that's the concern for me and if those stories are still going to be told in that way.

The moment because some publishers are going to be having the same conversation about will they print articles can be turned into video it seems we'll talk about what the BBC in the New York time to do in just a moment in this Apple first.

They've just launched their own daily news podcast news today.

It's cold.

You've had a lot of people whatever they do is great more and more a lot of what they do is load of old crap and I'm not saying this is a crap product but the thinking behind it seems a little bit wobbly so really this is connected to Apple news plus the new subscription service and it's a robot presentable put together and catch up of material.

That's on Apple news.


It's basically apple journalists using material from other journalists to make a podcast.

Rephrase apple journalists is a little bit complex for infinite loop to get their heads around the more confusing is a publisher and I've done a deal to put my page containing apple news plus.

I'm already a bit dubious about because the revenue splits and what they're saying I'm getting you know not great but hey it's OK because I get exposure and maybe that's good for growing audience at the sound audio product and I'm probably going into audio as well as a publisher weather using my content to salop subscriptions to the service which makes my location disaggregated and probably generating less revenue.

I'm not entirely sure it's been well Thought Out or is good for kind of anyone.

There's no real still reporting in there and there's a lot of daily news podcast out there of course.

It's yes, that is right.

It is well mate, but it's just all a bit confused also listening to it is hard.

Play with different devices and I didn't appear on iPads or it appeared on iPhones and it's just seems half-cocked ok and do the big publishers that I was talking about Faraz see the New York Times the Washington Post they're all now creating some kind audio descriptions of their news stories.

Just is that the next big thing or is that just is that just lockdown but I think that my I think a lot of this has been through New York Times I think the success of the daily and has really made everybody rethink how they can get their print journalism and a by The Brand to to be as strong as it can be I think the daily is an incredible Stockton actually I become a subscriber to the New York Times because of the quality of the daily is it has been that customer journey for me and I think that other people trying to replicate that along the way it makes sense that like long.

Content translate well to audio particularly Tulisa's point but like you know if you'll make if you write a written something without pictures and translating it to audio the different discipline there, but it's got a close relationship and TV programmes insert into radio shows and I I think that there is value in doing this.

I think the key to this though is IP that a lot of public should have seen that if you do it fast it can start getting traction and then it can create sales in a different way.

That's better than in the kind of daily chip shop paper model that has been no signal in newspaper publishing for a while.

So if you can kind of get an audience to your audio products and then spit it out into it into a bigger story that could end up with you having you know a film deal or a book day or a TV series which can be incredibly lucrative for somebody's partners, so I think it's baby steps in in that direction to come and make sure that you own disoriented much bigger way, and I'm kind of I'm coming here for it.

I feel like.

Engage audiences with your with your content of your journalism and in different platforms and it can be high quality and an expanded Brand and I think that's a positive thing I guess it's good news is it's listening the publishers might be trying to get behind my work and distributes them in new ways Lisa you can't say the same for arts and Culture journalist at the moment.

We've just lost Q Magazine the Guardian guide may be inevitable given culture going on but the pretty sad state at the moment at the end of the sector.

Isn't it? Really is I think the New York Times I think it'd be described as a way in which long-form journalism can fit better into your life.

You know that you can because people want to exercise and talk and do things what they doing it.

I'm in for me.


I think the whole point of long-form journalism.

Is it need your time and attention to sit down with a big Sunday supplement or a glossy magazine and to engage with?

Depth article and give your full attention.

I don't want to be doing star jumps while I'm talking and taking some emails at the same time.

It's just you no call me old-fashioned, but I like multitasking but when it comes to long-form journalism myself in the Guardian make the wrong decision on that specific case of of Acting weekend supplement was the Saturday edition for the weekend for the guide fantastic about the you know the TV reviews previews you know really felt like it was it was Spot On for the culture.

What's coming up brilliant? I know I do think that that's sorely missed and I think it's it's really hard all the cooking supplements.

You know you really feel that yeah, there's it feels just a cost-cutting move really and as you say when you can get so much on.

News online you want something very different at the weekends and I think those guys were really well.

I think it's very sad.

You know I look at recipes online now.

I drop my phone without moaning think I don't know I like looking at pretty pictures of food and I think that's value for magazine.

You know I really do love the guy that I grew up with it as a student, but I think actually these days.

You don't look at TV listings in the same way and I would have I think again it's about in about two innovating and trying to find you you ways of delivering that information.

I would really think that guy podcast Maga do incredibly well.

I don't think we have enough good popular culture podcast and then there is a real audience for that, but I think it's a shame but I think that these magazines are I have two switches magazines.

I really pulled about the envelopes these days and that's that's the reality unfortunately so it's about being able to I really will be back with more me to use after this.

Magnetic media podcast Lisa Matt Emperor's still with me and the country's biggest TV conference was obviously completely virtual this year talk about the Edinburgh International TV festival of course and historian David olusoga keynote mactaggart lecture about diversity Lisa and last time we spoke about the running thing.

How did you feel for the team Marin charger this year having to put together a virtual festival really feel for them actually.

I think they did a fantastic job as a great content there apart from work really well, and you know of course people missed the networking and you know I think that's that's a great part of Edinburgh people you know like to be there at 2 in the morning pitching ideas or just drinking so yeah, I think I think we're all really craving a bit of human contacts in things aren't we at the moment but at least.

You know it was a lot of people did come together for the McTaggart particularly.

There was no great reaction on social media it really felt like they made her a real sort of interview moment for that for that Alexa you know it's interesting that the McTaggart address has typically been an Elder statesman and in fact when I was festival Michaela Cole and she was actually the first black female to to delivered Alexa and an actually was very similar themes.

You know she described being an outsider.

Just driving around journey into the industry challenging the production community to reexamine their attitudes to race and class and put people before profits and similarly David talks about the sectors marginalization of people of colour and how I've been patronized and you know I think both of those lectures were incredibly hard hitting.

Uncomfortable for the majority of the white British TV industry and very very personal and you know on on the back of black lives matter if you know I think everyone really hope that this is a really significant Turning Point that finally we will see change his speech was putting out there as well.

We see changed because he said himself as you know this was a conversation that was being held in the industry.

Not just with Michaela cold her back.

So get a couple of years, but I think he said 12 years ago.

There was a session at Edinburgh which was will we ever have a black TV channel controller and they basically had the same session this year and he's saying will we be having the same conversation about the best in 30 years with nothing really changing yeah, it was difficult listen.

I mean like a festive on the on the festival itself off you.

I massively missed it.

I think that Lisa's absolutely right but the festival.

The festival is seeing people that you speak to you when you know have a chance to actually hang out with diamond.

You know talk about the career in the industry video Raymond anything on the media podcast obviously I'm doing and doing that as well, but like genuinely I like icredit some of the success of my career to to that festival.

It's an opportunity to actually be human eyes does a person in an industry that was a very good job of dehumanising you went and I think that kind of not having it in person is was one of the biggest things are I I miss during during this lockdown period like in a bit fantastic job, but it's a it's absolute reader.

You know that that space works best when you are there in person when it comes to the speech itself.

I mean I was going through a very very difficult time again around being a diverse face within industry literally minutes before that speech went there.

We went on live on our YouTube yeah, it made me cry because of the difficulties of dealing with at the time with some broadcasters or a broadcasting particular.

And some things that he was saying was being dead in much more eloquently than I was trying to deal with at the time and that's what's the town at you.

I mean we just picked out.

What's the thing that I mean.

I mean it's a torrent of you know I can't believe we're still here.

I can't even still having this conversation.

There's a lot of you know if I was difficult to know if it's just a complete failure of the industry if there's a bit of gaslighting going on and it's just going to continue to be this way because it's people want to support status Quo and and that kind of sense that you know when dealing with those sort of issues and you're having to unpack those those feelings about being outside and trying to get people to take you seriously your Instincts that you're on your own that like no one there.

Is there to back you no one there is a support you you've got to do this yourself.

You'll have to set up company bootstraps by myself because you know people didn't give me a chance and I

Think I had a value invoice in this in this world to have to do it on my own and when you start your own companies and you have these conversations that are incredibly frustrating when people say that they want to make a change and then they just disappoint you again and again and again and you're doing it.

You know as mazhar and Company within lockdown.

You just feel like you're on your road.

So then when you turn on a speech and you hear somebody of that stature saying those things as well.

You do get a sense of well actually at least I'm not the only person that feeling this at least I'm not the only person that has having these experiences and hope is that if enough of Us you know speak out and and you know stand up for for what we believe and what you think is right then maybe change your happened and I sent some difficult emails purely off the back of that speech because I was out what if I if he's telling me to do it and other people saying it then maybe this isn't just me moaning and Cortana maybe we are enough collective voices can make some change and having.

Inside person on Saturday great pass2u map but I wonder whether simply because a lot of people in medium and about to lose their jobs, but actually when companies are being restructured again employee taxes and actually going to change because this is in the air the topic Lily has come up a lot as was pointed out and I've been at home been in discussions with companies where messages and about what they going to do and nothing really happens.

I get the general genuinely get the feeling that it's heading home harder now, but the proof will be in the pudding meant to say you committed to things and you have to see what what changes in commissioning it out put an attitude is that we are we are seeing a lot more consent relating to Black lives matter and black history.

No, I think we have to just feel really optimistic about that.

I mean I know it's

News young black reporter ice Chantal and she she pitched an idea about doing a an in-depth explain that they but they do on Channel 4 news about the history of movement because she still lots of incorrect information online about how black lives matter started and so the research that for weeks and then you know it came up with this really high quality in-depth reports on the issue and that on YouTube almost immediately because it's trusted journalism, so you know people like her able to tell those stories and have so many different ways of getting it out now and in the same way Charlene white ITV news presenter talking about her own experiences and listening to David speech and all of the conversation that we're going on and said well actually no adults are talking about this but we don't talk to children.

So then she has an idea about doing a children's programme confronting racism.

So you know that we children in the stew.

They're going to be doing so animating real life experiences that the children have and talking about it though.

They don't have a counsellor in the studio going to have young musicians that mean it's a real music and discussion but I think it's just really encouraging that people are being brave enough to say ok.

We need to talk about it when you talk about it with children very early on before news audience is already on site with this aren't they and I mean maybe ITV News audio slightly less so but when you look at the real mainstream dealing with this topic and then the highest profile example about at the moment is the Britain's Got Talent dance routine inspired by black lives matter but had over €24,000 complains.

It's a hot-button issue this at the moment.

Not everyone is comfortable with it being mainstream entertainment.

No, that's true.

I think it's very encouraging that they didn't apologize those complaints.

And it provoked a lot of debate and of course you know we've seen how polarized the debaters and we've seen you know on the back of brexit.

Just had divided the nation is this is another example you know but it doesn't mean to say that people should should stop producing that kind of this content and being brave and well.

It's actually it's just about representing the nation.

There's nothing so I mean diversity dance troupe and they were doing something artistic and it was great.

We should buy it but at the same time you know do people complaining that re-enacting the death of the victims of police brutality you know in an assignment Family Show is something that come with the trigger warning.

You know did they have a point is that something that should just be completely brushed away because people feel but it's not the right time to boys those concerns I think.

This is you give you complete more options oxygenators.

I mean the complaints for nonsense the majority of people that did complain didn't even watch it.

They kind of complaining of the back of an article about red and yellow whipped into a frenzy Ofcom complaints generating to be these days where you don't watch the content you just kind of jump on the bandwagon of kind of going I don't believe in that cause and I don't think I should be be have it down my throat even though I actually thought in the first place.

It's kind of a little bit silly when it comes to the actual complaint itself.

I think that what the real story of this is ITV and ITV putting themselves in pole position as the the broadcaster that is championing diversity both the dance troupe and the actual cause itself and and it's it's been a real I think it's a real Testament to how they handle their I think that at 8 appointment to the boarding that faces the new director of diversity.

Is is a really positive thing they had they know and they have been vocal and clear that they need to make some changes as a

Internally and with the concert letting out there and I think by doing the work they did around replaying Stephen Lawrence drama to some of the black voices they put on the channel to now this today and how to put an account they understood by and they are proud of her.

Is is what we what people want to see and I think that's a really really positive thing and I think that is easy to get swept up in the numbers of people that complain to Ofcom and you know how tricky the dance was and should have been on areas although things that kind of nonsense really because they are play a Small Part of other much bigger story which is your what is the audience going to look like in in the future and who were going to be the programme makers and and the People The Voice their stories moving forward and I think that at the moment based and what's the ITV of done.

They seem to be in a really good position to capitalise on that was in response to the complaint.

This is kind of Media complaints complaint have to be considered first like is this worthy of a complaint and the complaint investigated but this didn't even know this failed on the bus is not worthy of complaint but also what was quite good for Ofcom which has got very slow with responding to things over last date in 3-4 months and for them actually getting out with a response within a week was relatively quick and hopefully helps cut off some of the some of the discuss what doesn't help is that Ofcom announce? How many complaints they get about things fairly early on and then that just send up a bat signal to a certain group of people to speaking with big mainstream telly for a moment former BBC One boss Charlotte Moore has been named chief content officer at the BBC now.

I think it's great that she thinks of really smart role for her.

I think that she is one of the the real.

She is she is a content head and actually I think that was one of marks over her application for the DJ Roland and if she's got enough commercial experience political experience etc.

No one can come anywhere close to her with her experience when it comes to content come to life and reaching huge amount of audiences, so it's interesting that this has been created and I think the question is is this role that the BBC needed or Charlotte needed and I think that that's that's what we're going to see moving forward was a road was created to keep Charlotte into the in the building because she is such an asset to BBC or and director-general the director-general Always spend and and you know it can't be seen as a consolation prize, but it's difficult not to it to be aware that she didn't get that.

And suddenly appeared in the narrative very much looks in that direction, but I think it is also in it also linked to everything else that's going on in the industry.

You know the fact.

You are aware of the head of contents at places on Netflix into your apple probably go ahead content now and you know a lot of these big big Media technology brands have these kind of demigods of programming and content that the BBC kind of like because it was selling is weird kind of Here the channel is here channel here to Channel So bringing it all together under one banner of actually output and content is probably quite a smart watch that because you know as we discussed have to go to reading this episode journalism losing their jobs produces losing their jobs.

Tell him he's getting paid less.

We'll talk about that in a moment and more executive roles it doesn't look great.

No, I think there might be something in for as a theory as to why this happened I think.

I think Kim Davey you know it is been an interesting start for him actually.

I think he's come out you know fighting really you know his sort of focusing on these four distinct areas and impartiality high-impact content extracting more from online efforts in building commercial income.

I think I think it should say that I can see that Lisa's reading this for priorities office anyone have them down patent be impressed.

They need they need catchy slogans.

I feel really put his stake in the ground.

I think you know it was it was tricky with journalist in the beginning because of course you know one of the first things was cracking down on the impartiality of side of things on social media and you know it's very difficult to police journalist son to OL2 sensor them so you know you can't have an opinion.

I know that obviously railway lot of people and but it you know it there.

Online to chat if you're an authoritative trusted journalist, you do have to be impossible.

I think have to be very careful about about how you can touch yourself online and it's really be the same as how you can touch yourself an hour in a news report and you know the impossibility question is is so huge for the BBC at the moment.

They really are under so much pressure from the government know who potentially want to scrap the licence fee.

So you know he's right to prioritise on that he has to you know they really are in the politically quite hard to disagree with what he was saying wasn't it matter what people were complaining about what he didn't say I guess sure I mean the BBC as we discussed a number of times on the radio rock and a hard place almost every aspect of what they do is that the sort of stuck in the middle and I

Eddie Tony Hall did leave a few fires for Tiverton to put out I thought Tony with throws himself on a few of them before he left but I things like you know Gary Lineker been paid what he's paid whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing politically for the BBC it's not a good thing and someone should have just gone actually that's I think that comes up every time we can fix that a lot.

I think the social media taking a 400g.

I mean I know you still on over £1000000, but I was surprised to see that won't you the pub with that is it is a good thing but it's still a large amount of money for a weekly show it actually doesn't particularly rate on the network and if you were starting to get him probably be a strange thing to do.

I think there are a number of things like that the BBC I don't think the social media side as well.

I was part of that which team has got into the visa of needs the color clear the bar.

Off the boat near the got enough trouble with budget cuts and government attacks and things like that.

They're only a certain number of fronts at the BBC can battle on.

I'm just speaking of presenters friend of the show Jane Garvey has announced her departure from Woman's Hour that's following Jenni Murray although apparently Jane handed her resignation in before the anymore.

I will be getting the gossip from her at some point when she comes back on the show hopefully next episode but anyway, what did you make that? What do you think of Emma Barnett is the replacement? I'm a big fan of Jane and I love her podcast with with fee Glover as well.

I mean I did read one article which I found depressing because it was sort of suggesting you know old fuddy-duddy feminist off ago.

You know make way you know I actually think that's really quite unfair I think.

The women have been treated really quite unfairly by by the media industry and as soon as you know your son's it off a lot more earlier in your career than men are and I think as you know she was also quite downbeat sort of saying that you know in all the time that she's been doing it the issues changing and nothing is getting better for women it all.

Just feels really depressing.

I hope that Emma Barnett comes in and you know put the release of more positive start on this and really sort of Telegraph column, highlighting the issues women face sing and championing them as well and yeah, you know I guess we have to move on but I'm glad and gentle has a podcast I can see and also she's doing my work on the BBC as well isn't so so it's not the end of Jane come on and we'll find out.

She's brilliant listen to that and would actually give it some interesting personality as well as doing doing the news.

I think Emma is a great Talent and a talent was probably hitting a bit by being on that on 5 Live and having more high-profile on Radio 4 will be will be good for her for her having your dad geared and the Newsnight stuff.

She does that mean it's quite important place on BBC let's quickly talk about a new charity which promises to fund public interest journalism through donations on top of this the public interest news Foundation issues amount of this so I think that we've that the the crisis in local news has caused a real problem and anything that kind of plugs that gap of

Local news journalists and ok baby that we discussed earlier about magazine shutting down.

I think that the issue around local journalism is even more terrifying and it is a real is a real lost to media landscape and handsome anything that can fix that issue work.

I welcome it.

I'm not entirely sure that like it seems like what kind of creating an almost and another public publicly funded model and that has problems when it's only funded by certain individuals like you know when there is a universal scheme like the BBC it's not holding to any one particular voice or major don't know or anything like that.

So that's that's always problematic.

So I'll be interested to see how this Shakedown from from those expected, but I think is Lisa mentioned.

There is an issue around the public purpose journalism compared to clickbait sensationalist journalism that has really muddy the the

Coursing in this country and across the world so anything that can be done too kind of correct that is a good thing.

I'm just a little bit sceptical about the amount impact something like this can have it is kind of an American model.

Isn't it? So that is being founded by Jonathan heawood who's behind the pressure regulator impress it looking for donations for the big tech companies in France replacement American model which they they don't have the BBC and they don't have an organisation has got Trust only God yeah exactly and I think it's is ironic.

Isn't it that you've got we were just talking about Harold Evans and now you know two are we saying that to do the kind of public interest news that he did it now needs to be charity.

I mean it's quite shocking when you think about it like that really.

You know I think it should be properly funded properly supported very important for our democracy for you know the health of the nation.

I mean you know people could kill themselves with you know what?

Do you know I think it's needs charitable status isn't isn't great.

You know I mean there's lots of other things that have been looked at whether there's no tax breaks.

It's really really challenging for publishers.

I think the model in Australia is really interesting weather trying to make it mandatory that publishers are paid by Facebook and Google you know I'd like to think that there are ways that the market can solve this as opposed to journalism having to be dubbed as a charity giving donations to already grants of £3,000 not huge amounts of money, but huge amount of money to these outfits.

So this is like the Five Pillars and the Farrier and gal-dem organisations for that really struggling to get money doing something different to what the BBC doesn't no one else is giving the money anything that is a good thing and startups.

I think there is an interesting question about whether it isn't deserves the charity funding they do as well, but at least it has to be an economic that supports news and the it seems to be lacking.

I don't think it's quite interesting a lot is coming out of America is the sort of revival of email newsletters is stack in platform for funding and you touch journalism and individuals and small operators and getting Direct funding from consumers over certain topics and if you go to the website you can look at some of the top performing newsletters and quite quite differently shears and I think those sort of things you direct from humans is an important part of taxi.

There is just enough time to squeeze in Isle legendary Media Chris the 72nd Emmy Awards took place last week the first major TV

Since the pandemic began, so I'm going to ask you 5 questions about the night's winners and losers all you have to do is get the correct answer before your opponent's you buzzing with your name and you know the answers hey Google say brass Matt your say Matt and Lisa your say ready.

Let's go which broadcaster won the most awards on the night taking home 30 trophies and Lisa HBO it was HBO which made wins for best drama series in the form of succession and S limited series in the form of what for 1/2 bonus points so happy I got appointment with the best supporting actor in a drama prize going to Billy credit for the morning show Apple TV Apple TV

Thank you very much and the disappointing result obviously for them considering the card into that is the question for you.

How many wins did Netflix score with record 160 nominations? I will give it to the closest gas 335.

Yeah anyone else want that 19:25.

That's actually closest but I mean I really feel like your eyes have the balls then just went for it overall in the televised Awards show including prices for ozark Julia Garner for Supporting Actress in a drama and unorthodox is Maria Schrader for directing in a limited series so we got one point at the moment.

I believe is question for how many awards did Canadian comedy schitt's Creek take home Lisa Lisa 7 yes, well done including best action comedy series 4 Eugene Levy

Catherine O'Hara and Best Supporting Actress for Annie Murphy who made history by becoming the youngest person and the best drama Actress award yadda, but euphoria act she's aged 24 for her role as a drug addict in hbos euphoria.

Also fans.

Only II black woman to ever win in that category, but that has just frustrated because we don't have a great day.

My thanks.

I guess Lisa Campbell Madigan and Faraz Osman if you like what we're up to hear a podcast and you want to help us.

Keep making the show then do visit the media / donate and selected amount keeps going all year round and if you make a donation even a small one you could Future episode dedicated to You episodes and get new ones as soon as they released by subscribing for free viral website vmedia the producer Rebecca Drysdale

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