Read this: As America decides, Big Tech weighs in

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 it's the election all of us have a staking but in which very few of us.

Have a vote less than 2 weeks ago and clearly the media is a very big part of the story just in the last allegations of censorship by Facebook and Twitter as to how they handled a tabloid story about Joe Biden son Google it's been hit with what could be a landmark competition lawsuit from the US and of course the ever-present ratings driven social media fuelled frenzy of cable news with which President Trump has a permanent feedback loop let's unpick all that for the next 38 minutes panel joinerslive anatoly on the other side of the Atlantic on a zoom call John connecting to via a very dodgy cable which if it goes out.

I'll just have to recite some poetry for you until p.m.

In which case I hope you like Thomas Grays Elegy Brian stelter the cheese Media correspondent for CNN host of their reliable sources Show and also have a daily email newsletter of the same name is latest books is all about the relationship between trump and Fox News President Trump nice to chat to you again earlier in the year for those who don't follow you on Twitter may not know that the president called you.

Just a poor man's lap dog for AT&T was recorded the parent company for CNN you had quite a public contest with trump have any of the last 4 years has changed who is a journey from a straightforward reporter to a bit more the campaign that someone is campaigning for what you can see the truth.

You're trying to cover everything.

He doesn't says and that is exhausting in a course revelatory.

This is a president who is inspiring to many but scary too many others a serial wire the likes of which country.

Before the American journalism has been changed by trump American dollars in is more Harbour cereal today than it was 4 years ago and it's a very good thing.

I don't think I'm a campaigner but I do think I'm trying to do more to explain how we know what we know we have to defend the idea of reality the idea of facts and fruit at when the politician have any stripes as it's raining when it's actually outside we can pretend like what they said has mirror.

We have to call it out and I think in that way.

I have a little bit so many of my colleagues did try to stand on the side of truth and and would you go so far as to admit that Donald Trump has been pretty good for your career my colleagues on Twitter spreading hateful lies about the media to the American media but it is also caused a lot of people to want to know more about our jobs and our work.

I think that the silver line.

The tax on the media about our jobs and why we do what we do and how we know something is actually true.

You know whether it's about verifying a document or whether verifying up until my campaign for that is the Silver Lining of his Attacks come back to your nurse's Fox News shortly Susan hope I pronounce that right is the chief congressional correspondent for the Washington Examiner also with Susan at the present and read the Washington Examiner to very influential publication, but a few British listeners, you may not know about it.

Just tell us what it is.

Please make a picture if you would to the well, it's a media outlets around for a long time more than Jackie we cover politics recover culture week of Congress we can have some local issues around Washington DC and we have a an opinion section that leans conservative, but the rest of the staff is nonpartisan.

Ok very good.

Is a media reporter at axios she's also the author of the weekly actually awesome Media trends, newsletter and a crazy times at the moment.

I know you've been on this be for a few years broadly speaking do you think that goes into this election America's Media goes into this election better prepared that it was for 2016 that there were so many defence mechanisms that were triggered news companies and a technology companies to treat the story which you know we haven't got the email for 18 and then we didn't 2016 when DNC emails I think that's just a good example of ways that book media and other information Gatekeepers have you know that animals smarter this time around as opposed to where we were in 2016 the Democratic national committee which went?

Sorry, just minute.

I just want to say hello to our final guest.

I think it's fair to say in San Francisco Tony Karen Brown used to work at the European Commission Den in the world of digital campaigning now and she writes for the day fix newsletter.

Tony's another newsletter.

There's lots of techniques.

That is about we got a very receptive a lot of various types of is you want to hear what it's about telling 10 seconds well that keep me awake at night some of them are cancel culture some of them are lab grown Diamonds it's a bit of a diverse and without the intersection sort of Taken and politics thing goes to which is interesting from this conversation intertwined and I also host three podcasts because apparently and covid-19 need a new podcast so let's let's begin with that story that serious about this time last week about Hunter Biden the newspaper print emails it said came from

That Joe Biden son Hunter had left there's a computer repair shop a smoking gun the paper said that expose biden's links to a Ukrainian businessman.

Joe Biden call the story part of a smear campaign but if you try to share it on social media, you couldn't easily both Facebook and Twitter said it breached their policies on miss information.

So can you just walk us through what it was about the New York at the Tech companies objected to do with these companies to say hey be on the watch for something similar.

I had a 2020 were information might be leaked to a news organisation but if you we had 14 and what triggered the warning system that these platforms was that he aspect of the story that the emails that work included were obtained illegally.

Sometimes we seen with disinformation campaigns by bell actors around the world particularly Russia when document or illegally obtain their often and just ever so slightly to inclusive and still an example that could be if that sounds and emails are found on 100 perhaps emails one sentence was actually one or additionally that could have skewed the entire storage until the tap platforms were wary of this type of thing happening again went into your control systems Twitter of course.

Shut down the story they made it's that you couldn't share a link if you would try to your account with the last Facebook went not so far and just the distribution of that story but we are found a week later.

Is that it's still managed to get out.

We found the ataxias that shows it was still probably why be talked about ensure.

And now the next question is going to be are conservatives going to continue to cry that this was censorship on the part of technology companies.

Are we still in the weather in the journalism? You like things about trump and his family are free-flowing on Twitter and Facebook a lot of democratic operatives who were in high-ranking positions in our supposed to believe that.

They're going objectively monitor this information so close to an election.

Uno Twitter and Facebook both have very high ranking democratic offered operatives there have a good reason to want to suppress the story that needs to be part of the story and also when you are the story is always looking at this way, what would we do if the shoe was on the other foot would have this sorted on Juniors laptop and you have to ask yourself which water have really surprised that information if you're going to be realistic and I take a Blinders off.

I think about what you said before going to tell you what you said.

I should mention calls in that context but Sonicare who's a former deputy prime minister and a centre-left European and liberal politician in this country is number 3 on Facebook but just come as soon as I've spent so I spent 5-years prior to today working company that sold campaigning software and the one thing that you found time and time again was both the Democrats and Republics

Complaining that platforms have their back wouldn't have it back up against them think I don't people need to remember is these companies are not for against a certain political parties are not Partners in the business.

So it's we have to start understand.

I think that's the thing that's missing and I think this is the thing that was missing.

It's now starting to be put in that sort of limelight a little bit how they are making money.

What is the business models models of these companies and I'm not going to be interesting as he's company set out with granules missions which are generally beautiful and what they want to see the world does that business modeler line and I think that's going to be the topic and the conversation that we're going to start hearing more about is your business model aligned with the mission that you stayed if your mission as Facebook is to build Communities and milk together how you doing that from a business perspective actually you're selling targeted ads and these people on making money on your behalf.

Are you truly? Don't think there's more questions and I don't know.

Do you want to come back on Tuesday and I appreciate that perspective so much I do want to push back though and the Democratic opposite of these companies in a joke app for Facebook set a Brett kavanaugh confirmation.

He is a conservative.

There are plenty of Conservatives at these companies but what you get is something interesting which is it feels like why is that because they are more so than other let meaning groups now if you during Obama administration is one of the biggest story VHS is home.

Movies that mean on a right there are trying to describe this within the community and stems from the fact that we have how to services working with these platforms keeping an eye on some of the community that tend to leave for right policies.

You know it's not that I just think they're in America right now.

We are seeing some of the movements on the right that tend to trigger the policy violations and did CNN try to stand up the story in the past tense and present tense and continues to try to verify and a look into this and didn't do it coming from as well as the details are there in these alleged emails themselves as apologise acknowledge for judgement is father such about this.

It was part of last season.

Call impeachment new here.

Just doesn't seem like a lot of the principle of the ideas Susan said there.

She's a fruit that the idea of these types of picking a exercising subjective editorial judgement as to what should and shouldn't be in the public domain for that journalism.

They are adding more and more like the news that I'm studying right now.

That is a reality of this information is being put into these awkward situation almost everyday honestly.

They're not even doing one-tenth of what they should be doing they are trying to play catch-up nobody I am going to defend the bathroom that all the time they make wrong so it is all the time and they're barely clean up the did they have allowed to exist however I think Siri is very important.

He asked why are feeling this more often it's because there's a symmetrical and asymmetrical nastiness right now in America

Look at Joe Biden vs.

Donald Trump said more negative Whose Line more often asymmetric nastiness is a sad right now indecency and B&Bs been spread by the right.

It's sad.

Hopefully it'll stop the right now.

It's true and that's for the platforms reaction that you can go and Susan what does this story what we discussed and tell us about how the trump campaign is using the media because if antibodies hard drive is a genuine bombshell need these.

Why do they need a news the disseminated? Why not just dump the data out into the public domain why go through the filter of the Post you know skip over and do what you're talking about was really interesting last president Trumps rally.

He used audio and video of buying and talking about ending.

No things that would have really concerned people who was addressing.

He was in Pennsylvania so they do their own their own Media outlet the sound so I agree with you about that, but they stole you know the lights a weird things based on who they believe will give it a fair streaming from what they think of the story of stuff that you sent that to concern about let's go to Sean Moore scepticism for a lot of really good reasons.

That's a whole different sharks and that's how they picking shoes which outlets they want to provide the Story 2.

I think that first try to get Fox News to area and then ended up with the newer coastline get the bottom line is that deserves scrutiny by all media outlets in if they pick and choose this and decide it's not time.

I think that's showing will buy I think everybody deserves to look at the mala stuff and everyone should look at this and give by the scrutiny that you know it's not running for.

He's running for president of the United States in this is not last year's news.

It's weather not his son was corny and get him to talk to the Ukraine oligarchs and he was benefiting from this is really dirty grandpa season you're saying it's new I think bad of miners.

We don't know what is real.

What is faking these emails if there is anything really understanding you have a lot of about 30 years so whatever you want.

It's my view in Iver right to say it.

I don't quite get what you're just let me know and then I went to Google and Siri can you have two things? What can you have a story that needs me from trying to figure out whether or not this story is true and a picture which is god forbid the story was tied to some sort of figure this information effort to connect your lessons.

We also need to consider that and that's why I think it Unites us in the forest of the tree to get a look at this particular story, but it's always one side and university stuff.

I was much more Skepta because I knew the sourcing and I knew were came from the building for the past few decades.

That stuff and I can't sleep did bunk people don't ignore me then.

I'm going to turn you to help us through the Google between on the air with it when it's on bed.

I'm going to come to the Rain happens every day use rooms in America are very careful about this stuff.

I know you wasn't readers don't see it, but it happens every day slow cautious happens every ok.

I do want to move on.

I don't get to to Fox News before that Tony can you just explain to us the story round Google this week which is a related if I think might need to unmute yourself on the zoom call.

We talked about Facebook and Twitter there's a huge story.

I just want you to explain that there is a landmark legal action by the US Department of Justice against Google that was nice to to Halfords it's got an opposition.

Why does this legal case matter the important fundamental lack of understanding right now of the power and how tech companies and the platform exist are tied at the hip today of how campaigns on time and how many Mexicans are there is no going back in time and I'm going a little bit back to previous story here and there is no back in time now.

This is what elections are going to look like you're going to talk more more about the Tech companies, but it's true problems with this the first one is only dig into the tools and technologies that are basic.

Powering the elections today at National local global level two weeks a few months before the election because that's when the stories break.

That's when I stories become sexy.

That's only want to talk about them.

We need channel ISM and we're looking into the tools and technologies are paranoia elections every single day of the year only got the phone calls two weeks before the can you tell us how this piece of software works and how it functions and we saw it again with the Cambridge analytica story for 3 years.

We talked about Cambridge analytica the ICO to the UK data protection has come out and said oh actually I'm going in today.

If so happens that Cambridge analytica didn't miss you stayed on it didn't say the brexit collection accountability interesting now with the trust.

We have to be focusing on these stories on a day-to-day basis.

Not win an election is happening because I'm out this is the last one that I may come on the previous stories, what is happening?

Now it's I personally as a European in America why can't I do not know what the policies that needs Presidents are standing for I do not know what the policies that time stands for I do not know what the Biden policies off.

Why because a lot of time talking about the text in the platforms that of a new detail at some length in your book hooks the relationship between trump and Fox News it.

It's a feedback loop as you describe it just proves that what is the book called hooks and why do you previously taught that calling it when men yeah was going to bring them about Trump's wig Fox News but when the president called the Democrats elicitation of the virus are hope they went on here.

He said they still like their new hooks it was clear to me that the story of the ultimate example of the disservice that box does trump in front does fat this misinformation and disinformation of the virus have life and that consequences unfortunately.

Get your book talks about that.

You got some 250 sauces you speak about 140 current and former employees if they can you give us a sense of British listeners in particular.

You know it's global listen to this program of the intimacy of the relation between trump and Fox News is obviously revolving door in terms of person just how intimate how close were the operations earlier, but I think it often times and informs trump and then get onto it Messenger on the rest of the country.

It's happened to let on Fox and friends in the morning us time will the president tunes and access to Agenda for him and what he is upsetting and israelis is triggered by what foxes story in the morning.

It's that kind of feedback loop may also offer year personal phone calls and friendships between front bumper on that is what's unique indistinct obviously there's always been posing as an American politics Amelia too much clothes in us but it's even more extreme than anything.

Feel the need to give so much time to Fox News when his basis secure just as a political strategy and I'm quite understand isn't it? The people who aren't watching Fox News that you need to persuade to vote for him obsessed with going after reading station that you can only kind of rely on in order to survive his Media outlets.

You know it's different.

It's more than a lot more chosen a more more than entertainment value little that way and I certainly don't think Fox News program for entertainment that's because you'll be treated more fairly because there isn't anything neutral out.

There is the same case with Democrats news even though they probably could use somebody to do so during the Democratic primary, but a lot of them said now we need to boycott.

So do you want to go on there that they didn't want to list here the question.

I'm and I think it overall speaks to just a change in the news business.

It's going back to you and then I changed it was supposed to be representing people and is possibly about accuracy honest fairness objectivity grouting back to everyone going into the little circles in that's why trump goes the fact that that's where he feels he can receive the fairest and it's a very interesting hearing that was told you from the BBC I mean sorry that we should talk about the comparison between Britain and America because in Britain we mostly rambunctious highly partisan newspapers and tabloid and pretty stayed regulated TV where is in the US you guys I got prestaged newspapers in really rambunctious TV is there is one ecosystem better than the other in terms of the media diet that people are getting.

Regulated slightly differently by the FCC I think that the BBC security us because we do not have as much easier and as a result if you take a look at the US has one of the largest information gaps between people who have been cancelled occasion and people and places of the UK media that is consumed while we're all demographics in the US are public Media is really strong Brand and its position in the news.

The weather for business is Stratford Now vs.

UCD really before the internet one of the things we found is that polarization and there's a lot who draws attention and in an advertising are really lucrative opportunity the more polarizing you could get the more attention in an avenue.

You could facilitate the next big question is whether an absolute scriptions inadvertently cause the same problem is your exactly Priory annoying this shows infuriating anytime.

It's always going to wait a minute.

I'm good what you want to do about all this.

I mean you've written a book about Fox News you written about by the British called is this if if there is a by the administration this isn't necessarily going to change very briefly Brian what do you do about the polarization is driving American media as so so strong at the moment.

People are cigarettes healthy Media diet reliable information from the associated Press and reuters in the Washington Post and all those big brands that are just trying to get a fair in write a neutral clothes brands exist in the American brands.

We need to keep them strong and vibrant.

We also need to remind people that is not parlours into the main truth and decency and democracy defending democracy is not a partisan position and the people that they're wrong.

That's what a selection of movies about losing your smiley briefly is biosan.

What are the outlets you just name? I think she was what I think people should do a very diet just like what we put in our in our bodies.

Thank you very much indeed.

What a fantastic discussion.

Thank you too Brian stelter CNN Sarah Fisher from actual Susan for each year from the Washington Examiner and Tony cow brown podcast.

A newsletter right I'll be back the same time next week.