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Read this: 'If you're not breaking stories, you're nothing'

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'If you're not breaking stories, you're …



BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello my destiny is one of the most influential turn this in the country and Phillips has been editor of The Daily Mirror since 2018 in fact she the first woman to edit the title since the mirrors large editor Mary Haworth in 1903 in all the years since there's arguably never been a tougher time to be running a newspaper than this year 2020 and as of the next half an hour.

We're going to talk about your strategy.

What role you think the Daily Mirror in Britain today welcome back to the media show last time we spoke you were just the editor of The Mirror since then your remit is broadened for which congratulations for the Daily Mirror Sunday and the Sunday People come to the Business motivations of your publisher reach PLC just says what's it like running a 7-day operation at the moment.

It's been.

Read all year 4 news and I think that's been most interesting is seeing how much readers have come back to news.

I think there's always that slight concern in general one day going to run out of stories that people want to read and it's been so much glue my fingers crossed the industry over recent years about people turning away from use for a whole host of reasons, but this year with the pandemic.

We have seen a numbers digitally the numbers have the highest numbers we've ever seen and imprint as well.

Obviously we took a bit of a hit at beginning of a lockdown, but they virtual come back a real hunger for news and that brings with that this was a real sense of privileged that you are trying to give that news from in a way that is used for accessible helpful and actually makes me feel a bit better about what is very very worrying situation has your life changed because you're running a 7-day operation was it actually mean what's the actual work for you?

Crucial bit about this new job is taking on the digital side as well, so I think as with packs quite a few of the established newsbrands when with the advent of online when it first all began that should have started up as a very separate operation that was kind of like 3 people in the corner of right back and what it was like that at the mirror and then that has grown and grown and and I think this is happened.

You're not the established new friends in Crewe independently because and it was judged on slightly different metrics around traffic because obviously we need the traffic is the advertising but what we are very conscious decision that we need to make sure that the mirror brand is consistent across digital and print we know the the mirror values that I think well known across this country what we stand for the beliefs and social justice with compassionate and with fair and those values.

We just need to ensure that they are within every everything will be right be in.

Talbot imprint if it said that social media post, it's a newsletter is a podcast.

It's a you name it and it's great we doing all this stuff, but what's even more important is that is consistent and there's mirror that's what that's what I'm most excited about the moment and obviously Sunday Mirror is a huge part of that as well, but it's about being consistent and coherent makes no sense in terms of print and digital when it comes to the printer was new overseeing and all of them that move to a 7-day operation is often driven by the need to save money is near me that's what happened to me.

How often throughout my career PC version of it the BBC at the moment isn't something lost when you move to this model of a kind of seven day at Fraser still content Farm where people if it's programs when it comes broadcasting or titles when it comes to newspapers people in charge of their little sections getting lost when you have when you move that General 7-day formula rather than people who are absolutely obsessed with make sure their title as the best thing every single day.

Would like get a quick battery in 2012 but I kind of think so this is a really fairly poor footballers that I like to think that in a team.

You've got different people who will always play in different positions.

You never gonna have a salary in goal for example.

So it's about I'm very different people doing very different things and they should be 100-percent passionate about their bit we still have reporters that just work on long time investigations because we need long-term we have other people who might be doing today's curry story or whatever so it's it's not not for one moment is ever going to be about having everybody do everything because that way Madness lies, you lose everything that special about your brand reason.

I'm going to keep coming back.

So you've got you've got to safeguard those things and you've got absolutely make people feel passionate about their bit.

The team and how much are you now sharing across the the print title so in terms of the stories between the Mirror Daily Express Frances all of which is part of Reach PLC the umbrella company, how much is that stories? How is that journeys was being shared across a court case in Rotherham this morning or it's it's an inquest that's going on in Worthing on make something like that.

We would share that copy because in a way.

Why wouldn't you not gonna have a different take on it from different titles containing anything that's brand is completely separate.

I will fight with the Editors of The Express and the star on there whenever I feel and they will do the same with me if we feel is trying to move on we have to because the worst thing that any other brands for the Merida express the star and I've always said this is they become 1B graymarsh? That's all a bit.

We have to be distinctive avoid them.

What is implied by what you're saying is that? What are the challenges is general interest musical cases Rotherham prinsens is something that's kind of these days universally available commodity you might get it from pie might get it from Mauritius so is your approach as he had to achieve all these brands that you've got to keep things distinctive but the way you keep things distinctive across the different titles is not really through news.

It's through as you said campaigns comment pictures, but I think the most important thing to any news provider breaking stories exclusive still have to be doing what you're doing and I suppose if you look at breakers in the widest sense that does include campaigns because the campaigner up getting something that no one else.

Over idea is to be and so yeah fight on those things that matter or breaking stories and ideas, but other stuff that is like say out there for everybody we have to use our resources as efficiently as possible and that means focusing all really matters is you say the appetite for news has been absolutely huge impact on the business, so the restructuring the business the merger between Express in the mirror titles of course came well for the pandemic.

Just give us a details as far as you can about what the impact on the business being a good 19 so they hit on circulation and hit on advertising and obviously there's a huge micrograms of Thurlow in all that will come on we saw 20% of sale so waiting print so obviously you know we're already printers is challenged as we all know so you know that is that was very worrying.

We had no idea how long the complete lockdown going to last for and at that point everyone's habits we turned upside down, so that was hugely bot up to the shops more normally again.

We could take him back most of those and then we now about on the daily work out 4% off our your new flat so along with a kind of a lot of the other newspaper titles.

We introduce the free deliver my newspaper at home strategy which had enormous take up to 7-days more people actually started coming to us on the Sunday titles on Saturday titles then and were before so that was really positive we Focus

Not on insuring that there was plenty to read everyday and print because people will stuck indoors slight cuts in the difference when life support finished because of paper as soon as sport came back then paginations went back of the advertising.

I mean there is a huge structural secular decline in print advertising particular will talk about digital come onto edition second edition terms of print advertising circulation related advertising cap and who's that hit and how much it come back so in the nationals it was hit but it's largely come back.

It was more probably cos obviously we're a huge group and we own always regional titles Manchester Museum Chronicle so the titles to a Greater hit and particularly so particularly imprint Atwell and also digital as well.

So that was when we really felt a lot of the pain because he had small business.

Open so obviously they were fighting in the nationals.

We will always sustained by the supermarkets which kept on and probably more than ever wanted to advertise.

So so so we work from that of course with a part of a bigger organisation so we had to go through that sort of group came together.

What did you notice of the cost-saving targets and use the furlough scheme and we had from the advertising department more than really from editorial and that kind of got us through that that very bad period at the beginning and then and July time we went in a restructure at which point we lost jobs across both commercial and editorial which was really really tough and it's been a really difficult summer how to approach that mean.

It's incredibly hard.

Isn't it and obviously you do it in the difficult position of been there where you're keeping your own job and internal do they lose their job? Do you know do you two loved it as no stuff to do literally do that? Is it an email comes out saying it's let's get together one address for stuff.

How do you actually do that? You know and you know the impact it can have on people's lives and these people that you work closely with an you know that got families and friends and and also you know that the job market is really tough at the moment as well.

So there was a big all staff meeting at the beginning of the day and then people was spoken to individually and then there was all the things about working patterns for changed and you have to Factor and it's not just the people that are leaving but it's also for the people who are staying because that level of uncertainty and there's what's it's going to mean for me and my

Patterns in the Mayfield centre, Mayfield centre, they've survived in their friends even have to try and compassionate you possibly can as honest you can it was clear and just accept people are going to be angry and and hurt because when people give their lives to an organisation or company or the bed then it's hurtful about the impact on the print side until circulation advertising you mention hasbeens big uptick in traffic.

How much of that has translated into actual new revenue how much more money can you make as a result of voice interest in your digital offering digital advertising revenues are really doing very well when we come back from work and answer so it's if there's been a real StepChange there, so that's been really positive and in addition to that.

We got a new chief, exec.

Last summer summer 2019 and the new strategy is very much around sign-ups also looking at that and it's so it's it's about having that relationship your customer and that the ability to talk to your customer at your reader more directly and that's very interesting for journalism as well in that I think it's putting journalism at the the heart trying to make money rather than pure advertising to talk to you about because you're talking about Jim Mullen your new CEO when is Peter Simon fox? You have been charged of trinity mirror and oversaw renaming to reach PLC and he came on the show he said very clearly these two strategies and media these days they specialism and then the scale and he said we're in the business problems with scale which you know we can we can come back to it is The Reliance advertisement sign and your position of tabloid with a mirror lots of regional titles, but going after sign.

Which is another way of getting people's personal data explain why that's useful while that's important to you in the company or in doing quite well on the advertising at the moment.

So that is important, but beyond that I mean recent persondata all sounds like as soon as it happened to get Facebook but it's not it's purely about knowing who are readers are and then insuring that we can give them the editorial that we don't interested in and we can give them the advertising that is relevant to them.

How do you do a great thing? I think they're breaking emphasize quality journalism.

We can ensure that people interested in the mirror and in what we produce and also share our values getting access to us and they're getting an edited curated feed stores every morning so we have got a daily newsletter.

I do a newsletter and then we have got 20.

Last newsletter getting customers readers engaged with us and I think the longer term ambition around the money.

Hope I think I've got to try one of these things for that sort of works and then I think it's just about finding different niches that we know people interested in and reaching them.

Is you get 50000 people eventually say to Barclays or whoever whoever they will know that the people that signing up to that news that has of interests and they share a certain value set most likely and therefore that makes them all targeted.

Isn't it? So I think we're obviously that has work so.

4-in in the internet world and that's what we all learn from Silicon Valley and I think it's taking those lessons and working at what they need for it established newsbrands in this country is 300 you mentioned you guys asked to the scale business.

I got to spend some time with foxy to talk to you about this a lot that he was the acquisitions grow get the eyeballs make them part of you know part of your family.

What is the strategy of his successor gym what to do in terms of scale at the moment there's no that's not chief priority.

That's not the key priority.

We all at so interesting thing that we've done as well regionally is that we set up a lot of the digital life sites so for example in Leeds we set up Leeds life which is done incredibly well, so I guess what we could probably we could have gone and bought the Yorkshire Evening Post it's part of jpi Media

So we could have bought that but then you could ask question.

Why would we die that if we can actually create her own we can create your own digital proposition that is because of the people of leaves so I was on the website of Leeds live this morning explain what leeds-live is because obviously that the thing that we've never had a solution to a miss you and I don't know if anyone ever will is local news and how to get people to pay for it and me it seems pretty obvious that there is a really solution across look to the she did the cow cross with you came on this program to discuss it it's not always get obvious what you do about local news.

Cos you got to try to get people to pay for it is Leeds live a solution is it working is it making money spaces? What is content news to advertise around and so yes, I think we haven't maybe the solutions to what you do about local and regional journalism on quickly and now that they will become clear.

And I think what you still got content you still talking to people you're still in the game and you still have a voice and I think that perhaps we will find a way through this crisis in recent years and we've got to keep creating stories, but keep writing stories otherwise there's nothing left to reach PLC is to descale business is a few difficulties associated with your tablet at the mirror.

Then you know in Italy scales party what you about but first advertising just taking the lockdown and is in secular decline in print and then it's mostly did do a lot of the advertising is going to Google Facebook isn't it difficulties with this world, where people are increasingly paying for stuff online to move into the specialist colour trade to say we are beavers specialise in a particular thing if you like it pays for it digitally isn't that the way to go?

Is why I think we have a dual strategy in that we retaining the strategy around we want scale, but we also want to know who are readers are as well and I think that's important because what you say a mass market tabloid want a better word and there are still fast numbers of people who see themselves in that space and yes, but life's not really entirely about dividing yourself up into a cutting yourself into niches.

So you might be interested in football, but you're interested in the US when you're interested in Strictly Come Dancing and you interested in Nigeria and what's happening there so I voice that's why I've always felt really that the tabloid format is almost perfect in that we contain multitudes and that's what that's what tabloid Tab was give you and I think it's really speaking to those people who actually just want a little bit of.

Curated edited trusted way from people talking to them who who share their values and who they trust in our go to a former newspaper see who said that the task to reach is exactly do you say building that scale with a subscription business and he said somehow even if it's super cheap £1 a week various brands of got to get paid subscriptions is that something that you guys are looking at trying to get people to pay using the sign up so we know a bit more about you, but we also eventually want to charge you cos that's a big crossing the Rubicon you know further down the road will get to him in the ambition for this year was to get to Two and a Half Men and sign up with already gone way beyond that the admission fee into 20-22 was putting that 10-minutes so we're making credit headway on that and then I guess once you've got those people you've got.

Then we need to look at what we do to monetize them.

Can you see the Daily Mirror would charge digitally I'm not sure that's really not I I would find out really be a big step.

Houston so practical terms, how are you getting favours? Maybe stay at the moment if you work your genital working remotely from last week when the so we've got the Manchester and we got in in Yorkshire now.

I've got various people and Tier II and I love you in London here to the point last week.

I really felt people's head went down and just feels it's been a long slog the winter and you know the beginning when we got through the point.

We just amazed that would actually create a website we can actually create the newspapers from home then we still got into the swing of it and but I think you do lose the creativity and the fun and using funny places and their laugh and the best ideas come because you're having a laugh at something and that's so much hard on a vehicle.

Sun editor partly comes from your physical presence you know this isn't a romantic idea about how it has been through the ages.

No seeing Alison in The Newsroom will having her over your shoulder so we need to change page while that's a big part of what you do to be hard doing that I presume so go back in the summer.

We did the Dominic cumming story which was like one of those great story that you live to to do and it was a late on a Friday night that that we finally got enough to get it over line to get it up online at 7 and then imprint the next morning and so there was me in my spare room and then there was our head of news.

He was sat by Sons bunk beds working and then night editor there and his flat is not how it looks in the movies is it?

A really important story, I'd love to get your side of that story that whole business of Dominic Cummings and the trip that was a wasn't to Barnard Castle that from may is a big exclusive that you shared with the Guardian political editor about it.

Just tell us again.

Why you end up working together with the garden on something is you say people are very protective of their ideas have had a call on that story within a couple of hours of a sighting of Dominic Cummings so we what is the alleged Bluebell Woods wonder I can't have a quick as you know you need to be absolutely certain that when you when you go in and we weren't getting any responsible them.

Just made it really difficult will be kept on working on it.

We had.

Strong are reported in the Northeast was on it for several weeks and stop looking at all sorts of different trying to patch all together and then Pippa heard that the Guardian also they have different sources as well and then buy bring it together and I slept fine and we knew that together we had enough to get over the line inside process to taking our listeners through that process soap it becomes to you.

I've got this thing.

I think it's amazing soup but no antenna stonewalling it and I haven't got enough with the line at heard at the gardener doing it.

Is it her idea that you should have a call with sapphire and when you make that first first cause calf.

I know who proposed the idea of work and get a pooling resources at work to get to give me to get to love Instinct to say it's amazing story, but let's do it with someone else.

Important story to be told because it was just so utterly wrong was it happened there in that you've got to remember this was in this was in the run-up to the weekend went with absolute height of a pandemic and the information that we had was that Dominic's coming at the point where both his wife and I felt they had symptoms of the virus then travel to the various the other end of the country and then when I think I got lost someone online is that whilst they went NHS hospital so they could easily have taken something that hospital while they were there and it was just so utterly wrong that story had to come out because that's what we're supposed to do we are supposed to hold power to account.

We are we are supposed to ensure that the people who make the Royal Standard always as if they were ever gonna be able to get it out.

The public domain by waiving the garden office you would do that the enemy anyway that that would go for a drink with so you know it's quite ok.

I'm going to the details about sorry comes out so you're taking very snippets and actual hard newslines to number 10 is that is that Pippa giving it to Lea Kane who's in charge of communication to suit know or an absolute.

Yes, it was the London eye contact number 10 as well.

How does it work for you, then try and get a story that over the line? She's got really good relationships there, so she was doing that and we were getting closer and then we on the Friday afternoon whatever like we're doing it too late Friday at 6 when I've been to the match.

But then coming out with nothing so we doing it would be going with it.

It's always nerve-wracking doing a story like that, but we knew we knew we knew the witnesses and we had to the north is been in this job for 25 years and he's been there he talked to the people you've got to trust you report as you have to employ reporters who can be trusted in these situations and then when they tell you something you believe it.

Did you deliberately hold back some details to give you a really strong splash over several days in other words to get through the story.

No not not intentionally in that we could go with and without the bits that took slightly longer.

I just did you have to do you have any agreement informal while it might be with the Guardian about what they were doing what you would do.

So we had to make sure that we will go in the same lines on the same day at exactly the same time yeah, and put it up bang on 7:00 online extra edition guardian details from the Daily Mirror and together both are based on the same story new and able to run it together same time.

How did you find a how do you find out spoke about how to find the number 10 operation political standpoint, but I just think it's very disappointing that sometimes.

It's can't be taken out of things in terms of what is the best thing for the people of this country getting the news the information.

They need to know I'm in there was the incident during the election where the mirror was kicked off the conservative bust campaign bus.

It just seems slightly Petty and that's just because I didn't feel that we were value of use and I think we're not going to be value to our conservative campaign we haven't been since 1945.

So that was never going to happen, but there is still an important point for democracy that people everywhere who read the news needs know what the different parties were saying and at that point really interesting so somebody will say to me.

Are you going to war with them? Are you going to have you going to go really mad about it and I said well but actually what I'd rather.

Do they just changed their might it was the same with the is that we all do with this like grown-ups actually the best for the people this country rather than because this increasing polarization and an anger isn't really helpful.

But you know I'm sure I do plenty things that really enjoyed them as well.

So there's lots of people would say actually you know there is a immoral from that coming story.

It's a tremendous coupe shared across the mirror in the garden and the moral is the guys still there.

He has a shift if he hasn't lost his how it is.

What is his place.

He did that press conference in the number 10 does that imply frankly newspapers on the force that they want swear that story has shaped the narrative around people's conforming to lockdown rules for the entire year was only reading a PC yesterday.

That said that not only not only the public's attitude to the lockdown rules but also the attitude towards the prime minister and whether he was actually strong enough person to to have the discipline or actually just so opportunistic that you put up with any behaviour that just enable.

Route to run the operation, Abbeywood and I'm also I think that's caused me points what I thought to myself cranky by running that story have we have we added to two people not following lockdown rules you know should we in some ways of not run that if it was going to leave some of the problems but since followed, but I think that point you have to take yourself out of the story and think what was the best thing that what's the best thing for tomorrow? What is the best thing that people need to know that information, but that's not to say that you don't do it with concerns that he's still there.

I think we are in a very particular place with this killer government in the we seen various other issues.

Where ministers have resigned advisers have resigned.

I'm not sure whether

Spanish you around shame or lack of shame or whether it takes breakfast point that the truth isn't quite such a important commodity as it once was but I but I certainly think that story was hugely important.

You have to ask yourself if the established newsbrands hadn't broken that story it wouldn't have got out there and the thing about social media and is that the five opinions everybody is not an opinion but everything you have to have to be built upon an actual story to start and you haven't got people breaking the stories.

You got no starting point about the mirrors values talk about how it's not your friend of conservative government his 19:45 at let's talk about him anymore directly who and where are they so?

Well across print and digital with it's brought that that's brought.

I mean so to talk about print readers.

They're older they believe in as compassionate.

I mean the thing I will sort of thing I'm trying to explain to me, what is there a big-hearted broad-minded and that's very much who who were looking for we be over index.hu working caring professions.

We also we've got we over index in readers who are black or from minority ethnic Communities so that's history.

I'll see with the lottery does that get that little bit older but digitally it's a great opportunity for us.

I think now because if we ensure that our brand values are out there in a few.

There's a huge audience of young people coming through who share our values and have a very much of this time about compassion and Social Justice and fairness and doing the right thing and

I think that's why the great opportunity Trust is the mirror a socialist publication.

we are

publication of fairness

vacation so in the you say there's affairs publication.

There's a labour publication and there's a socialist publication.

Would you rank it later that's top 3, but I wouldn't want to say that's how it would be forever because I think our primary purpose is to serve our readers and depending on what may come or go.

We are speaking on behalf of normal ordinary decent people who who believe in compassion who are compassionate people who believe in fairies you believe in social justice and the family is soldiers.

You say where people because I mentioned the big-hearted broad-minded the slogan on your master is the heart of Britain and I have a particular fondness for Hugh cudlipp slogan back of the 1950s.

Forward with the people yourself go back to that is formed with the people still at the roundabout you confirm the same thing you both looking at you cuddling last night preparation for this interview with Labour and then and I mean when you read that you can books and all history of the mirror it it feels you with this huge pride in the Mirror has been such an important part of the National fabric for so long and I feel that quite heavily and it so there's not to screw it up at any point in this journey, but I think we are I think we are bored with people.

I think it is about the people.

It's still about they still not feeling this country who are proudly working people Crowley

Working class and those people need a voice is so we speak to those people and we speak for those people will talk to you about the Labour Party because of a very interesting relationship with them.

Would you like the Labour Party and what do you make the argument that it's hard to be a journalist and a member of a party at the same time because if you're a member of a party your power but if you're a journey human Tamar truth than the two things often conflict and I think it's more about solidarity than anything else.

I think primary Armadale list that's my number one.

That's been quite politically interested.

So I've ever wanted to be a journalist and so politics and I think if you're really about politics all day long then naturally there's going to be some interesting that so I think my membership.

Charity with a lot of those values than anything more than that but my my chief aim always and forever is to represent the readers if I spelt that he wasn't doing that and certainly have done in the past.

We would we would make that point quite clear.

We saw a lot of that in the election last year.

What did you make a Jeremy Corbyn as leader? What was the papers relationship with the Corbyn crew like so I mean it started off well got quite tricky at one point so before I was there was the point where the labour at the weather mirror called for Jeremy Corbyn to go so great after that as you can imagine but then you know he had the success in the Greater success in 2017 and we were we worked very well with him and he was all.

Very thoughtful very giving his time there were people around him that made it much more difficult I think for some people but we had a decent constructive relationship relationship and I'm very very split interesting respect to Jeremy Corbyn for his authenticity and others really didn't obviously we are very similar place.

I've got so many things has later in the Redwall towns were very much our towns and so we try to reflect that so we were always supportive.

You always support it because if you look at the manifesto, it was it was built some great ideas in their the concern was whether they were able to get for a government a lot of our audience are fascinated by the mechanics in Britain so when you say good relation with cold wind give you got stuck.

What does that mean does that mean you get a call from his office and once every 6-months you and you let her go and see him tea, and Donal as well was always a very very kind and very interested and if they saw something they liked they would ring up and say so or right for us if we asked her if we were doing campaigns on certain issues.

They would support them so one of the big campaigns within recent years with the the campaign to get the so that people didn't have to prove to you had to opt-in to be an organ donor and hopefully.

And we'll be worth on that counts campaign for 3 years.

It was you know we really sore struggling to get traction there and then at the Labour Party conference in the morning.

I got a call from McGuire at that point he said he's gonna say in his speech and that was like a lightbulb moment because then it takes it into and then amazingly the following week Theresa May measured in her speech and now it's law and that's then that the Power of Brands and that how you affect change.

Do you think the mirror choose that worked on that for many many years are loads of families that been impacted and I think but yeah, I think we were yes.

I suppose we can put over line in the end.

How does your relationship with Keir starmer and his people compared with that of course?

Kissamos great he's and Angela Rayner as well.

They got good relationship with them.

They're very helpful to us.

They will write for us.

They will give it some stories very good.

I think the coronavirus by think he's he's Shauna start a quiet authority that is going to be quite.

Dangerous to the Tories in the longer term and I think by being very supportive during the early stages of coronavirus when there's that real sent that had been national unity to get through it.

I think that really worked so that when two weeks ago.

He called for the Circuit break it had a power because he hasn't been dipping in and out and I think it's such a shame that more people don't watch p.m.

Keys.

He's got he's got the lawyers mind hasn't he and his car unruffled.

He looks respectable he's not hysterical and I think there's an authority that will really play well amongst the masses you been to see him as much as you know I'm coping as there's been a pandemic on but how often do you speak to him?

But if I needed to IKEA useful for the mirror front page about Marcus rashford, Vincent's who's the footballer whose campaign for free school meals for kids.

Yeah, you had a fantastic so cruel and named within the the word so cool all the conservative MPs who voted against the Russian bill is that anger towards the government something you're trying to channel not consciously, I don't think but I think I think it's just what we feel.

I think everything is entirely a gut gut thing and win on that the Marcus rashford there free school meals for children up until next Easter you just think it's so obviously wrong and I just cannot understand how that was able.

I think that's how you that's how you edit you don't think so, I know if we do this then it's going to win a few a bit of support here there and everywhere.

I just think it's entirely a feeling that and then you'll know if you're going the right direction or not confirmed when you started out in newspapers two decades ago campaigns have changed her name is now this feedback loop with social media and celebrities who got into instead see that basically as an opportunity for newspapers in there are able to have this constant dialogue with people social media in and generate solidarity and social media or is it something to eat when you feel that their kind of authority when it comes campaign is being undermined because they used to have to do all themselves and I used to be able to own a campaign.

Where is now Marcus rashford coronavirus social media.

No, I think it's great that there's that collaborative aspect to it in that if you believe there are things that for the good of your readers and for the good of society generally need to happen.

It shouldn't be about the ego of 1 editor on the ego of one type it should be about trying to achieve that and obviously we can be part of that that's great and we help on loads of the scale things pretty enough to get that much attention, but we just think they're important to do an Diaries alright to say so we did loads and loads of work around the the TV licence for over 75s pay for it.

So that was that was something that our readers but really really strong before and we haven't managed to actually affect any change their but I've always believed that campaigns just about winning which I know is like this old newspaper maximum.

Never really thought that at all.

I think is about showing solidarity with your readers.

Just to be clear.

You don't take the mirror every day who exactly is your beef with there is your beef with the BBC for their failure to continue this payment which was

Amazon fire stick oven or is your beef with at the government for putting on the BBC in the first place so I mean that ran across many titles of Dunnes Stores on this but we will sort of slightly differently positions that other people who I think perhaps use an opportunity to give the kitchen again for the BBC I think we would be critical of things are with big with criticising the thing of the past about salaries of some people.

I think my mum's recently ready to your director-general.

What did she say when we're talking in the talking in the council Chambers old broadcasting house with pictures of the generals on the wall shadow of in the shadow Lord Reith angry about the salary something receiving when she's lost her free tv.

Licence.

He could read the news if the new institutions in we should be very careful what we wish for your response.

I know it maybe I'm getting he didn't sign the morning.

Yeah definitely I know you happen to know it's quite busy at the minute.

We measure social media and I talked about social media the technological context in which ocean is happening will speak English so last week about the controversy the US around her Facebook and Twitter basically censored is an old-fashioned sense a story that the New York Post ran, Hunter Biden Joe biden's son and they said to their policies on this information the power these platforms now have when it comes to distributing the news.

Yes, I mean we're we are really critical point I think in this in terms of the power of these few very very fuel stations not about distributing the new for also the music don't distribute also about the fake news that we know that but propagates also around the polarization of you and I feel the anger and the damage that causes and just generally of the stranglehold that they've got around the whole Media industry and the point you made earlier that advertising as well, so essentially only is what they're doing.

They're also trying really quite hard for the rest of that business.

But they wouldn't say that and I talked to the cranium and what they would say is the fact is they have designed exceptionally convenient products which are exceptionally effective at giving very large numbers of people they want they do it well and people don't necessarily have to pay for those products and exchange their personal data as a kind of payment that these companies have just engineered supremely of tools which people today.

Love the skies and caused all sorts of social ills, so the fact you've created something doesn't necessarily mean that you should be able to use it as you might wish and that's why we've got to have some kind of global consensus how we going to do with these people not having any time soon.

And what would you like to see in this country because I spend a huge amount my time reporting on the regulation or rather the lack of regulation of lollies companies in this country be very slow to happen.

There's been a lot of talk of an online harms Bill and so on I mean, would you like to see a regulator for the internet in Britain part? Is it because obviously free species absolutely crucial and that has to be retained, but there is got to be some kind of level playing field with what as a as an editor.

I have to comply with the it's ok conduct with the law with all these other aspects but that I am governed by that that just seem to be passing invite and I think hand in hand with that is the commercial aspect in the if they are making the prophets that they are through using other people's content then they're able to ride roughshod if they were actually being.

If their profits works such as they are they will be much more in line with the rest of us.

Just retain uses a tiny part.

What Google news about Google News serving up you adverts search for on Google for many many years.

They don't need news they doing it.

They would say they said money back.

I'm not taking the position of course on this day would say they said money back to you guys by distributing a huge amount of traffic in your Direction would you can monetize there's already will find out about your Marcus rashford campaign because they look up Marcus rashford on Google and the Daily Mirror link comes up that's good for the traffic.

Would you can monetize it's the new thing of that day.

It's what keeps coming people back.

It's work at your football in the shops and it's exactly the same digitally it's what keeps people coming back and there's been.

Facebook when they tried to reduce the established news feeds and they brought them back as clue got some kind of value and I think all the anyone is asking is for the play by the same as everybody else ok.

Let me just on the two different things and the economics in the social side on this forthcoming regulation that online harms which is often to do things like that the mental health of teenagers and you've got three children teenagers.

I think what do you want to see in terms of online harms regulation in this UK to mitigate minimise the social negative consequences companies just has to be a code of conduct so so as I got it so which regulates what I do and and then we also have reporting guidelines that we work with on things inside on how we sort of tree issues around transgender reporting guidelines that we work to that can be there that can be regulated that can be.

Part of what they create and that has to be in place, I think because the damage that we have seen is horrendous and it's and where are you seeing that damage now.

We don't know what that damaged young people's Minds looks like when it's played out over next 4050 years to come but they want to reduce it affect the market power of Facebook and Google it comes to antitrust measures in speaking shortly after the Department of Justice in America's lost his big Texan landmark, lawsuit against Google in the US when it comes to competition and auntie text message.

What do you want to see change in the market power of Google Facebook in this country in this country at the moment? I just can't be right.

So it has to be that commercially they are they are taking sort of what's what's due and they're not stripping off.

So they're not using alcon.

To make more money from advertising then we are from then.

We can make from our own content.

I can't be right there.

Just got a bit of product the new Facebook just very very convenient to create a better product played speak on behalf of Facebook but to put their position.

They would say they've got this advertising because people love their stuff and advertises get value out of it and if and they say it's open to yeah.

They were once entrepreneurs and they were they were going to be engineering from the outside.

You know if people want a bit of that advertising pie.

They need to build better products which get the eyeballs and get people connecting online so that's clearly not going to happen how on earth you you ain't how do you shake that giant? I mean yes, obviously if we done it 20-years ago that would be a great idea and think about is the abs.

Community setting in this country is shifting on this point either took the other day to a group of advertisers that requirement that desire for trust and for advertising in a trusted environment is absolutely crucial and I would like to Hope and I always say this to advertise as well.

They're going to have to start thinking more responsibly about where they spend their money as well to the point that do you want your do you want your children eating chlorinated chicken cos it's going to be great for some great companies in there in the US do you want your children reading news and harmful images because it's making a load of money for coming in the US and I think after I just need to reset up to the plate on this finally finally talk to you as we have asked about British class system families in the sense.

That word is like yours like mine the the route for them to get to Turners and decent living.

Pause local papers and as we discussed local papers are struggling.

What advice would you give to the 18-year old girl listening to this who's not rich who's not from a family as necessary got huge expectations of her, but he was ambitious and who desperately wants to be as Phillips

So, I think you've got to try there are still jobs in regional newspapers and websites and that's always a good place to start there's you've just got to keep writing keep talking to people keep trying.

I'm always quite surprised.

How few people write to me direct saying can they come in and do some shifts? I think you've got to love it more than anything.

Have you got the love you so much.

He wants to do it everyday and I think that it will still I'm good.

I mean.

Yes, it is very difficult.

I mean we do a lot of work at the mirror and across the whole of Reach to encourage people who have backgrounds and so there's opportune are still there.

I'm not saying that easy but those issues are still there because there's so many other opportunity now to write and to get your views all your news out their student German

School journalism, there are opportunities and if you want it enough, I think you'll get it should she go to university to laugh? Why not? You don't have to go to university, but I think you're some ways the studio is a very high standard now.

That's not a bad way to get through into it but if for whatever reason you don't think it's for you if the written word isn't necessary for you.

What we do is no more complicated telling stories when you can tell him what you can tell me a picture you tell me video but the crucial thing is bingham's talk to people so the writing almost if you can write as well.

That's that's a bonus but if you can talk to people and you can ask the right questions and they want to talk to you and I trust you and I'll tell stuff then you return list and would it take for you to give her a job in the mirror?

Alison Phillips editor-in-chief of the Daily Mirror Sunday Mirror and Sunday People and all the digital products associated with them.

Thank you very much do for taking the time to talk to us.


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