Read this: Diana, Panorama and a BBC apology

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello the winner wasn't immediately clear but if you watched any of the rolling coverage overnight of the US election notice that not long and proceedings.

There was one obvious loser the media touch calling it wrong fake news voice of the establishment on and on it goes etc.

Etc.

So did the media lose the election well only a complex answer will do and I have outstanding you qualified panel to answer it was obtained by deception a quarter of a century ago this very weak Princess Diana sat down with Martin Bashir to record one of the biggest TV interviews of all time but now there are allegations about how Diana was persuaded to talk let me introduce you to my panel and very pleased to welcome home.

The media show Hamish is the co-founder of substack which is the newsletter platform that lets writers sell their writing direct to subscribers in the media is going crazy over subset right now and that's with good reason.

I miss good morning to you in Washington DC I see you're catching a can of Red Bull why's that young kids have been keeping me up late at night and is there's also this week in the time that Twitter is looking to buy you out is that going to happen? Why do not for sale?

I think it's really important that sub-sectors stay independent writer sign up stick and trust us to be a stable platform to build a business on if we end up going with integral calculator for their trust, so I don't think it's something ok.

Have a people approach with office about the company.

No, no just to get it.

Why you got a fascinating business model which are getting too very soon more from Hamish very shortly also journey across the Atlantic is Vivian Schiller currently in Maryland DC at Vivian has an extraordinary CV she's a former CEO of NPR chief digital officer at NBC News head of news at Twitter and among her current jobs.

She sits on the board Scott trust which desert thing is I read that is amazing see which is reassuring that she sits on the board of the Scott trust, which owns the Guardian and she's also an executive director at the Aspen Institute and I could you read that one of your first jobs was as a tour guide in the Soviet Union which gave your break into journalism.

You gonna tell us about that.

Yes, I was a Russian tour guide and interpreter in the former Soviet Union when I was in my 20s and I got my break in the journalism because 1010.

And was decided he was going to single-handedly and the cold work and they needed they needed a somebody to that could speak the language and fetch the coffee for them and make reservations when they went to Moscow and so that was my answer into journalism right place at the right time which is useful to give you a good hug you and I Johnny lost his libel claim against the sun this acts as a good moment for us to get a top lawyer in and my next guest strikes fear into the heart of all jealous because Persephone bridgman.

Baker is a senior associate at carter-ruck and you've not made it to you had at least one letter from carter-ruck and upsets me.

I'm only joking.

I'm joking.

Thank you so much for joining us and I've also been doing my due diligence on your career and I redone the Carter website that Persephone also label reads autobiographical manuscript pre-publication now and I thought the word that sounds the phone.

And lot of cases of a prevented from ever getting too cold by publication work so pre and post publication as well as a lot of what we do and have you taken out something reliable the extraordinary things maybe you should you should write them down somewhere in Paris impossible.

Let's start with a USB let's start with us and Vivian Schiller executive director as I mentioned at Aberdeen you want head of news at Twitter could you ever imagine back then? I think it's 2014 when you were given the Twitter would tag or remove a post by a sitting us during an election count because it contain the full suit.

I mean there's almost nothing about anything that happened in the last year that I could have imagined in 2014 to be perfectly honest so no absolutely not I think they're doing exactly the right.

Thank you writing because there's nothing more important than confidence in the integrity of our elections and the matter who is tweeting to undermine that confidence including you know whether it's a conspiracy theorist or the president United States it's important for platforms with the with the power and reach of Twitter and Facebook and the rest to make sure those do not reach the public unchallenged as usual platforms and friends with you mention Facebook Facebook and Twitter taking different positions on this issue.

Is there a word for the Edit public information according to subjective judgement in pursuit of the truth and Twitter is now a journalistic organisation pretending to be a platform is it?

Play platform well, you know there's we could I think you'll end up dancing on the head of a pen little bit of we try to put a label on Twitter or Facebook which are very different beast they're not journalism insofar as they do not do any original reporting.

I think about when I think about a news organisation.

I think about original independent reporting not just everything absolute but I do not generating any original view their top team say with caveat that it isn't for private companies to decide information is in the public domain, but it's the real issue here that by editing Donald Trump is what it is effectively done.

They playing into Trump's hand because he cost bigtech as a giant well.

He's gonna I mean things right so I don't think you can let that drive your drive your policy and also it's not true that Facebook Facebook has said that but in fact they are.

Making editorial decisions are not necessarily taking Facebook post down but they're throttling the meaning of making sure they don't get the extensive reach or enter flagging them your Facebook has taken an active role.

It's not it's you know despite some of these statements are true a nonsense statement anyway.

They are actually taking action and Q anon not so long ago the Bernstein I was watching this morning.

He made the excellent of course they celebrated the Washington Post part of the Watergate he may be excellent point this morning the actually there's been a lot of outstanding reporting during the trump era is in the real issue in terms of what the media may or may not have got wrong here isn't the real issue that yet again they even Way way way too much credence credence to the opinion poll racket and it's those opinion polls which are now distorting democracy.

I don't know I'm honest opinion polls it don't have to but I think it has been good reporting on all sides, but the polls in Ottery hear much from each other so if your rear Neil time, you may not have a clear idea why people vote for trump at the moment.

I'm in from the new X Series and swelling my favourite so if I'm going where the opinion polls only I just had to sort of false belief there by them clean the leading is gonna be fine and when you're smart, but you're a powerful CEO of the co-founder take you for a little bit you had any what time she gave you a false impression was going to happen everyday would say the reporting therein reporting opinion polls at margin of error poles are a Snapchat not blah blah blah it all ad infinitum over last 10 years today.

You feel slightly like you woke up this morning and what you thought was gonna happen based on what you wearing your time didn't happen.

What's the most kids go on the understanding of what poles are telling them? What is forecast 538 out with me? I was not say anything.

I can't go without anything in remains uncertain very uncomfortable podcast by Nate Silver pulser used to have in your time.

I speak to a lot of people politics and talk about the companies that Facebook and Twitter are truly impartial subject close to our hearts at the BBC Facebook is run by liberal, so at least people with the Liberal Party black Mark Zuckerberg Sheryl sandberg with your insider's view is Twitter really impartial well.

I'm getting slightly answer your question little bit differently.

I think Twitter is trying to create a platform that were people can express whatever they want to make there.

A lot of nonsense on Twitter God knows and there's a lot of people sightings acids and put it was pretty much left alone where they have intervened is really just threats to public health or to the Foundation of democracy, so I have work at Twitter I can a complaint about Twitter but I actually cannot sort them in the party.

They have made around blocking tweets about the pandemic and about The Foundations the fundamentals of the election, so I don't I don't I don't even know her used to work there ok and that one point in MBC news.

Faded out trump speech when it was live with the Anchor saying that he was telling untruths after he claimed victory in states.

That is that the right way of dealing with an elected head of state of the network scary that right so first of all news stations were prepared for that because trap said I am.

Speak to the nation and on you know the overnight after November 3rd and say that I want right so what happened.

So they should have been prepared all of them took his speech which you have to do is the present you can ignore it some of the networks car away from him after he mentioned some of them played his entire speech and then cut away all them headbangers up at the same time that said rotor still being counted.

There is no winner so I think the networks acquitted themselves pretty well.

Some of the tweets are coming back to Twitter I saw after the pretty disturbing again most of the news organizations did pretty well, but some of the stuff with all that concerning incidents this isn't even a tweet but the cover of the Atlanta journal-constitution this morning just repeated the Foster that trump said he won a piece twin-set trucktown two wins in election state says he will fight election to the Supreme Court ABC News Australia granted not.

Breaking US President Donald Trump has claim being action is quite a major fraud on American public and as far as the Supreme Court child that is an example of what not to do you have to put the force in the in the headline news organizations, did it well talking about truth and lies and it's something Persephone and that's when it comes to how we control the material entering the public domain.

Let's use this as a Segway to talk about subset Hamish possibly one of the only media companies that doesn't necessarily have a content moderation problem.

I will ask you why the case this week.

You've had one of your biggest sign is a day Glenn Greenwald has joined.

Just tell us more about why join them what they sent you and he is awake and journalists very outspoken about broke the Snowden story was the founder of one of the founders of eBay and one of his friends.

He could publish without editorial interference characterize it but only been open to working with able to improve its basis and each other he receives its editorial interference and the recent stories about the hunter Biden laptop.

There was the election or re-election and censorship and the intercepts and sides going to ask you what you make this idea Polish without motivational editing.

I just want to get your business model as subs tax pitch really fascinates me for years including on the show direct-to-consumer model is the most stable for most Earnest Adventures and I also got those who said years ago consumers wouldn't pay for stuff online at been proven in the wrong.

That's now.

We know that's not the case.

Pitch is that you let right as build their own personal Media Empire what's that mean to the web and email to your readers and people just understand that it's basically wasn't you later and so we kind of position that way but really I'm describing it as a million Empire of publication.

That is based around a new home.

So doesn't have to be just a newsletter a lot of people read on the web and it can be video can be audio it can be with you need to let your going up through comments and discussion threads to do all of your right to put out some free stuff and some pay for stuff the model there's a lot of a camera into other form in what often happens.

Is that people put their best most accessible most popular stuff out for free that goes out and build.

the races you got

doesn't doesn't ok who decides the price point they authors essentially your business as the Punisher coming on and where the platform for self-catering near the Only Way is that we take 10% from the subscription to things with you for the record one? Is is that correct they are ok? And have you some more stuff? Have you got?

Well now about 20 everytime.

We have 3 people 20 people you've got a huge amount of income and you will come to you at the end of August 2 months ago and you said brilliant iconoclastic conservative right or left New York magazine said on Twitter that he had 75000 subscribers and I got an email from in this week saying you know I could have them for $60 a year.

He's got close 100000 subscribers now my back of the envelope calculation see if you got 100000 people paying $60 a year is taken into million dollars a year and you get 10% of that some people very very rich and he has not got the number of subscribers has gone over a fraction of a really good never make it right OK how did he grow is subscriber, so quickly is it just a big name?

Yes, I think it is likely that a bit.

He had something must come and stay when he rang her recycled the dish before you went into and do you do exercise any editorial control on the street? Would you tell you don't tell me what to write when you better get the idea that you on this and then come back to using Solutions have never legal support Greenwood is it a man with strong opinions going out their own way without editors and legal support and just Hamish to run things by concept of our work runs from looking at matter which is published by newspapers published by citizen journalists and individuals in between who are running a kind of branch model and something goes wrong who's responsible and is that the individual and do they have the wherewithal to enable child if necessary or do we need these kind of people to be back by Genesis

To perform due process and research and and a system in fact checking articles and making sure that they're doing the right thing really so I think there's all sorts of the labelling process.

The other according to our grievances is liable that we have started a program called subset to find out which is a pilot Just available for the us at the moment where people can apply to get legal support summer program is funded by what do you think about this amazing jobs? Do I haven't mentioned Vivian you knew at times back of the day when they're very much.

They're just dropped.

What is it about these old-fashioned newsletters that makes them so attractive and they are growing huge business with it's huge venture capital funding suggest new episode of the oldest and I'm saying that In There quotes means of communication at the digital age.

Which is the email and a podcast which also dates back.

You know 13-14 years are still so powerful.

I mean the thing about your email is as much as the millennial children make fun of it and ignore ignore.

Is it an incredibly convenient means of communication because it doesn't demand instant response you don't have to you can read at your leisure it lasts you can delete it or you can open it.

It's very very powerful and also give me news organisation two different revenue streams one revenue stream.

Is that when you lose weight if you like in your times newsletter any other newsletter when you click on the article text back to the site where you can be monetized, but you can also sponsorship the newsletter itself and actually it's data.

You get the data with one of your rights as you got him and that Johnny Depp was a wife-beater and been taken to court.

Would you help them in court at all?

The writer if they apply to the program and programme lawyers that case with supporting which just means fastener minimum battle gym see then I think he may well we got this really so you working in the case if if Dan luiten the journey to the son who has been taken on Johnny Depp and written what he wrote the subject rather than the sun you and your you would have paid is beautiful Persephone to be in court defending that writer will pick up on that so Johnny Depp Sue the sun for libel.

They called him a wife-beater.

He lost on Monday just tell us what the lessons are there from the case for journalists case it doesn't really present any material EU legal principles from a perspective.

I think it's reiterates that journalist however smaller piece of copper your writing however short the comment.

Offhand at the article you need to make sure it's Judy researched and you need to make sure that it's actually correct and when you look at the amount of factual a discussion of hundreds and hundreds of paragraphs and deals with 15 incidents between the parties and enormous detail you realise actually if you're going to Mount Street offence Defence of any claim against you you need to have the dates available to unusual that was also suing the journalist who wrote the article I mentioned and words in the sentence that weird it's not it's not weird.

It's not always happens.

It's just it's a strategic judgement called that usually the legal team would make about whether or not and there's a vagina as well as a publisher or whether or not they might be a benefit if the journalist has particular stay with the publisher or if the temperature is going to to support the dinosaur eating out in the cold.

Steaks case for Johnny Depp perhaps, I don't know maybe regret starting in terms of magnitude.

Does it match anything else that you seem and has it compares well to the forthcoming Meghan Markle and associated newspapers the owners of the Daily Mail and mail on Sunday that's in that way quite similar to what I'm watching the Meghan Markle child will look like if it goes ahead is unusual in that regard and of course there are number privacy cases at PC as well.

Some of which are in the public domain which aren't but just thought my high profile people but this is certainly probably the longest and most a list case that caused the seen in awhile, and that's all I guess you might want to answer in a personal capacity.

We're going in a society where you can say certain things in newspapers and is a whole edifice of legal rules and protections which involve getting cataract involved and then sort of thing that instead about Johnny Depp's everything I see on Twitter pretty much every minute of every day has completely different to the rules.

I mean it's a normal isn't it so weird situation that we've got to wear the same people saying the same thing about other people can have completely different rules apply point where the same in the wiring of information in a public domain misconception Twitter users of different legal principles and Dan Whiston and that's not the case.

I think it's really interesting hearing from you saying about Twitter because of course why people do soup people what they say on Twitter kthopkins case is a good example of that it is unusual and it's giving individuals with you know.

Could be trolls I have posted a bear and a platform to voice their opinions and in some situations.

Thank you baby.

Just talking about individuals with or without address of the motor bringing Jonny dymond BBC royal correspondent.

I do want to try to get to the bottom of this remarkable story which has been occupying some front pages this week BBC Diana TV lies is a headline in the Daily Mail today at the allegations come from Diana's brother Charles Spencer earl Spencer and he accuses Martin Bashir the report of that historic edition or Panorama 25 years ago of yellow jonasson the story but the surgery is Martin bashir's currently seriously ill with complications from covid-19 at his side of the story has been heard frankness and transfer to the show is the Colosseum sits on the same floor as us and BBC News but it matters the ethics in the really matter let's start with the basics one of the allegations that are Spencer's now making

He is alleging that not only was he shown a fake bank statement by Martin Bashir that appeared to show payments to his former head of security.

We knew that was investigated back in 1996 a few months after the interview, but it was also shown here now says fake bank statements that indicated payments from the security services to the Private Secretary of Princess Diana and the press secretary of Prince Charles the suggestion from the is that they were all part of a piece that it was a way that Martin Bashir would make his way into the confidence of first I'll Spencer and use that to get to Princess Diana because I need reporting nn86xx come up again in 2004 when Andrew Morton Johannesburg of looked at it in the Mail on Sunday investigation from the 7th of April 1986 which are Spencer says and I thought it would not be helpful for him, too.

Why is it all happening again now goodbye that to be honest? I don't understand while Spencer has waited 25 years to come out and say it's not just as bad as it then when we first had a fake bank statements, but it's even worse and there was a hole bigger tissue of lies around it cost universiry is coming up the 25th anniversary.

There's been an exchange of correspondence between no Spencer and the BBC I understand and Spencer wrote the new director-general veneda account then made an apology and then I'll Spencer's back with these new for the BBC Martin Bashir it's abuses religion editor it might be a bit for the media show because the editor of Panorama at the time was of course the late Steve Hewlett founding presenter.

What is the BBC admitted to or not admitted to because they've apologise apologise for the BBC's line on this has changed over the years at first.

I was at a blanket.

We've done.

Wrong these documents never went anywhere now the BBC has acknowledged that the documents were shown to our Spencer but it has said that had nothing to do with Princess Diana's agreeing to do the interview and that there was a letter from Princess Diana to the BBC to that effect that letter has gone missing however, it is referred to in documents back from 96 BBC documents that I've seen it seems fair presumption that the letter D exist but it has very unfortunately got now very quickly during the mail reported Spence receiving a significant contribution from the BBC Scoffers enrichment worldwide sales of the interview to be made for charities forever linked to Della is that your understanding? Yeah? That's what I understand is happening might be very surprised to a public corporation makes a contribution to the charity ok Persephone from Cartwright just briefly.

What do you make of the general idea that the brother of a deceased person could see what effect we are damaged effectively are damages for something.

They alleged thermostat 25 years ago.

The Book of Life red seems to be that they're taking another enquiry, which obviously the BBC would be and I understand very open to the damages damages as an executor of a deceased Estate but those are any specific circumstances and great deal of times past now, so I'm baffled by it ok to discuss the relationship Rosanna I don't really think so actually because their relationship is beneficial to both sides.

They've lost her from each other.

It's a pretty strong relationships.

OK thanks very much for all my guests at the same time next week.