Read this: A new era for media

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, hi, I'm Joe tidy and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4.

Hello is this the beginning of end of the age of Zuckerberg and Co Labour Party says emergency laws are needed to make social networks criminally responsible for anti-vaccine content that users post meanwhile over the us both Republicans and Democrats are threatening to bring in regulation to force the company's to be liable for harmful content on their platforms income coming president Joe Biden of course as previously described taxi owes as little and could a fringe out with very little moderation all fact-checking called parlour be picking up pace as a Challenger and another potential challenge to more traditional Media Donald Trump is rumoured to be a new channel to rival Fox News of course is very publicly falling out of love with fox and Rupert Murdoch so on the media show today a shift in the balance of Media power.

This big question I've scoured Europe the us and the office from Hannah Lucas let me introduce them to you now Tom Wainwright is media editor of The Economist now time before becoming the editor you reporting from Latin America and you've written a book called narconomics how to run a drug cartel so you swapped reporting on huge networks were everyone's addicted to the product to reporting on social media not a million miles away from each other each other.

I'm basically the hardest The Economist so I get all these really tough jobs and we got who's disinformation journalist at BBC monitoring.

What is BBC monitoring and what are you currently monitoring PC monitoring is a small specialist unit within BBC News funded licence fee and we look at the world Media social media and online platforms at the moment.

We are we spend most of our time busy actually on covid-19.

And the US election at the moment, we're still running off of the remainder of the series and misleading claims about the vote in America and also covid-19 of course I understand you're a bit of an expert on Q anon as well a lot of time looking into conspiracy theory.

It is basically if you want me to tell the audience what it is.

It is basically that started on a fringe World Cup 4chan in 2017 a user who signs off with a trip called called called the colours of q and claim to be part of a off the trump administration involved in a secret battle against a global cabal of paedophiles in the democratic party.

In business in media, and this year in 2020 q1 for most of its first two years of existence.

It was confined to the boundaries of this year because of the covid-19 pandemic also sort of other reasons.

It's of traveled worldwide and it's come to our country as well and he's got some pretty outlandish can speak in which family held from the lightness Institute for Media research in Hamburg Emily have you got run over in Germany yes, we do but we I guess we also have a conspiracy theories or ideologies that were there before Q anon came over yes indeed.

We do have Matthew Ingram the chief digital at the Columbia journalism review in the US Matthew as a journalist.

You must be obsessed with Twitter just like the rest of us, are they've just announced a major new design feature called fleets basically like Instagram or Facebook store.

Snapchat originally came up with the idea.

Have you posted a fleet yet? I have not and they don't think there is any prospect of my doing that yeah, we know that the beginning.

I don't we and then we were addicted to it so trump collusion of big media and big tech for election defeat big text been in front of the Senate in Washington and leaders of Facebook and Twitter been answering questions about their policies around the election in short Republicans think they're censoring free speech and Democrats think they're not doing enough to stop fake news up for the is a piece of Us law called section 230 it protects the platforms and being held liable for what people post let you play this for yesterday.

It's Jack Dorsey the boss of Twitter being grilled by senate cruise.

Are you aware that just two weeks ago in the state of Texas a woman was charged with 134 counts of election for other you wear that.

If I treated that statement with a link to the entire it would you put a warning on it that says well the democratic party position right now as voter fraud don't exist.

I don't think it's used for the particles, but they don't believe that you don't believe so what we going to test that because I'm going to leave then we'll see what you put on it as used to these tech Giants being in Congress and said it not me but before we left look at section 230 and what revoking or reforming it might mean for the likes of Twitter Facebook Instagram tiktok and all those others let's bring in bringing Emily tales from the library Institute for Media research.

How many I want to see if we can learn anything from Germany because for my three years now.

They had a law they're called the network enforcement act or nets dga463 talked about here on the media show but can you tell us about it, and what's it for? What does it do so and when it does is platforms need to make sure that unlawful content is removed within a within 24-hours.

To 7-days and where did with the law it makes it mandatory for them to have a complaint procedure for users to actually flag content not only under community stands as what content that would be unlawful and needs mean until say which la they think is as being in here.

So it's actually an additional flagging mechanism and what a lot also does is that it makes it mandatory for platforms to publish transparency reports twice a year that show which categories of speech have been removed her which laws under which laws and the platforms removed content so it's supposed to to help us understand more about contact moderation and it was a truly controversial.

Was it when it was brought in effectively.

It was the German gun was accused of a piling.

Very quickly, what was the motivation for the law? Why was it so pressing so indeed considerate unconstitutional and it's still not in the the Broad public but for your for a Legal Scholars it's still still very much criticise now.

It is so pressing the matter with suppressing because Germany welcomes over a million people in 2015 mostly from Syria and we had a peek of hate speech at a time and so the German government actually I reached out to the platforms asking them to do more against hate speech and to remove that sort of type of content faster and this the effort to self-regulate was considering insufficient and so

German elections were coming up in 2017 the government decided to Parliament adopted this long summer 2017 before the election because first of all the matter was pressing but also I think we're afraid that there might be some problems during the elections and I was something they want to avoid and three years on her the German government's very happy with the law they say it's effectively made a big difference in it works.

What do you think well? I think it's interesting because we don't really have before that.

I mean the data.

Only only shows that platforms do reacts there faster.

I did they remove hate speech faster, but we don't really know if it's because law of energy of our because of public pressure.

We have seen platforms been way more reactive to online harms in general and and and

Even if we we probably all think it's not efficient but still there has been a big change and over the past 2-3 years and but to summarise we don't know if it's the law that really made made this this change but there's no evidence of free speech being horny as there was that there would be over blocking which is it means that content is being removed.

Just because of the because of platforms would be afraid of the financial of the fines.

They would Risk if they leave content and end the day we don't have any evidence for this now.

So there is no evidence that more content has been removed due to Anton Wainwright Media editor at The Economist this generation models being watched closely by multiple countries and some of them actually brought in similar laws since the UK is also planning.

All of the regulation model this online harms bill which has been going through the works for what seems like 100 years at least what can UK government and the eventual president Biden learn from Germany do you think essentially model and is Emily says that the government is pretty pleased with how it's going for me the risk out it is that they sought to privatise the enforcement of the law and the incentives for companies seem to be very lopsided so imagine your Facebook operating in Germany at somebody posted a message which is kind of borderline.

You know it could be classed as a speech.

Maybe not your incentives is very very strongly towards removing that message because if you leave it up you face enormous fine if you take it down and justly you face absolutely no and so I think that the German system is certainly worth looking at it and I think it has its advantages, but it seems to me that if anything the risk is very much loaded on one side that the risks at all.

Towards free speech and I think any country looking at the gym model should take that quite seriously and we've seen so many changes in the last year have me what with the pandemic forcing changes of that racing fact-checking labelling the presidential election in the that 5 weeks leading up to the election.

I think they're more changes to policy on Facebook and Twitter then we seen the last five years, but do you think president Biden as he comes in a Corsa the incoming prison time do you think you will actually shake social media even more?

I think it's going to be difficult for him.

I mean I think for the text firms in a way the outcome of the election is quite good from their point of view because they've got a new president in the White House he's going to be presumably somewhat less than President Trump has been but the Democrats haven't got the clean sweep of Congress that they were hoping for which means I think really sweeping legislation is probably not going to be on the agenda.

So I think big changes are unlikely particularly because in Congress as you said earlier both Democrats and Republicans adamant that something must be done but they disagree strongly on what that something is you've publican saying too much stuff is being censored and taking down and the Democrats and it'll be opposite the more stuff should be taken down so I can't see a way forward for big changes anytime soon Matthew Ingram Columbia journalism review what's your take on this? Do you think that section 230 does need reviewing and you think it will be reviewed.

Well breakpoint there isn't really the kind of that would make it easier to do something like that.

It's huge job going out for section 230.

I don't see the Bible is my comments about section 230.

It needs to be reviewed, so he may start something whether they actually results in anything and I don't think it's going to happen quickly in it may not happen because he just doesn't have the support when there was a report about section 230 the Republicans some prominent Republicans effectively set in agreement with the recommendation.

So it would be difficult to push but that's not a bad one try.

Explain to us why the Democrats and Republicans both dislike this this law it doesn't seem counterintuitive.

Yeah, it's it's become a sort of boogeyman.

If you will it's become something that everyone points at and frequently what their point shows that they don't understand what section 230 even does the programme The section 230 was weekend or even dismantled the platforms would do way more censorship.

They currently do because they wouldn't be any protection so if you want more censorship.

You should probably we can section 230 and you lots of those who say they don't want to platforms to send her at the same time attacking section 238.

It doesn't make any sense Republican side misreading this law.

If they think they are peeling it will mean we will be less moderation and I miss reading the law and it's unclear in some cases whether that's what whether they stop now what the law says our names if it's also I think they're in some cases.

They want to repeal it and replace it with something that they think will be better, but what that looks like or how it does what it does is completely unclear let me bringing Cheyenne thought it was a disinformation journalist at BBC one side.

That's taking a very distinctive and very different approach more in line with what the publican party would like to see is parlour.

It was number one in the US download charts last week, but can you explain what it is and know about it?

Yeah, Paula is is a social Media platform pretty much like-for-like is basically a copy of Twitter but everything you do on Twitter you can do on Paul as well.

Why you tweet on Twitter you can Echo on poly leave replies on Twitter can leave comments on parlour you have hashtags.

You have your timeline you have a home feed everything is pretty much the Works exactly the same the only differences Paula says we are not going to apply the same level of moderation that made social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook and apply on content now that is one of the reasons that particularly in the last few weeks.

This is basically a second wave of my from conservative users to follow first one happened in June of this year after there was some kind of application of

Policies by the platforms against misinformation about covid-19 and also George Floyd protests in America and then some Conservatives uses moved the Parlour it's stopped before an election it seems to have gone up again as you said number one recently so it's been quite a lot of encouragement by famous and leading the voices in America like Sean hannity Mark Levine allies of President Trump ivanka Trump Jr preservative to move to parlour.

The only issue is festival the problem with Paula is see sometimes when there's some kind of anger from one side of the spectrum against one major platform.

Love uses move there, but then suddenly after a few weeks.

Don't hear much all of time try to come back to major platform.

Yeah, we seen it with with gab.

That was again that was a less motivated.

Don't like Twitter that didn't definitely do not become a household name.

I know parlour is growing but it's still tiny.

Isn't it? Do you think that this could ever become mainstream? I don't know I honestly doubt it as you say with gab.

You know there was a lot of noise a few years ago about gap and then Sunday stop because I love people who moved the festival saw how extreme the content on that night important to say the content is the impala is by no means as extreme as performed like to happen anyway, but at the same time the problem is if you've got a platform where in a sentence echo chamber in itself.

I quite a lot of people are like minded and a group of children everything that one platform and everything they posted pre-match looks the same sounds the same no disagreement.

There's no discussion everybody pretty must say the same thing agrees with each other and everything that becomes incredibly incredibly boring and although apply for my Polish

Added something like 2 million users in the last 2-weeks quite impressive, let's not forget Facebook has two and a half billion daily users Twitter has 700 million Instagram has 1.2 billion, so these numbers are still then.

There's a Long Way gone to Trump's annoyance with big media and is falling Fox News he tweeted last week.

I won't do my impression Fox News forgot.

What made them successful.

What got them there? They forgot the Golden Goose the biggest difference between the 2016 and 2020 was Fox News of course.

He's put an exclamation mark in that so trump considers Fox News to have been disloyal in particular.

He's thought the aggrieved when the channel election night made an early call state of Arizona for Joe Biden axios the digital news outlet claims that trump has now told friends that he plans to wreck fox and what am I doing that would be to start up his own channel meanwhile the Wall Street

Reports that trump allies have looked at taking over news Max which is an existing competitor to Fox News so Matthew can you help us Brits out, please? We don't have Fox news in the UK all the culture of cable news give us a sense of what role Fox News has played in US Society as Fox News to the rise of Donald Trump the rise of sort of the right-wing in particular.

They are trying I mean at one point Fox News things that were described Sean hannity show Donald Trump tweet minutes later and in some cases tried to put into law minutes later.

I'm there was a Direct conduit between fox in the White House there were Sean hannity was apparently advising the president during the election so the links between them are are so tight have been.

It was almost like a branch of the government in away and it's very well for both in this relationship traffic trump.

Had a pack of the outlet pushing whatever he was interested in was a it was a win-win for both but I lose loads for tomorrow see I think you could argue and Tom Wainwright of The Economist you've managed to have a chat with the CEO of news Max about these rumours.

What did you find out? Can you tell us what's going on at the moment? Channels like news Max and one of our can you use another one of these channels which are trying to be kind of foxy other than fox and election but fox in the right position because it's been a big supporter of Donald Trump these past years but now that he is a loser.

They have to sort of break that news2day viewers and you can see it fox.

There's a

Between the news there which is still relatively straight down the line and the primetime opinion hosts who are still sticking very much for the White House Script so there's a real difference there and I think fox is a problem either way, you know risks losing the sort of big trump fans to use maxillo am what others but if it sticks with trump, then it risks losing its more moderate view is so it's stuff.

I think it's the storm these upstarts are still quite small but it is a difficult moment for fox managing this transition trump starting something either from scratch or buying something are a bit.

Why do them? Are you think it's something to it?

I think he may well be interested another rumours that he might try his own online venture.

You know Netflix style trump pics if you like my favourite channel yeah absolutely in the barrister entry much slower but it's difficult you know if you're trying to get viewers from Fox you got to remember more than half of foxes viewers over 65 years old.

I think 90% of them over 4 years old and streaming is a huge thing, but it's audience tends to be on the young side and says you're trying to get that kind of over 65 bracket streaming might not be the most appropriate medium to do that so cable might be better if you can manage it, but presenter same problems as well, so I wouldn't really tired, but it's not going to be easy for him a market that can say something like you know trump flix.tv or whatever today.

I think there could be but I think the ads are very very low.

I mean trump.

You know talks about doing all kinds of things and his lights dark and Adventures of the past Trump's taken half of trump Towers you know what happened.

There is lots of things.

He's tried have failed would love to give the impression that he could just ardizzone foxing take all those feelings but if you remember 2016 when he was expected to lose they're all the same as I was going to start his own network career was going to give him his own network.

Could I have it sure is it going to be successful? I doubt it.

What's it like in Germany interested to hear about the different Media landscapes around the world.

You have this kind of cable news cable.

Rivalry.

Is it partisan like it in America

So we do have people news however the main two channels TV channels here or public broadcasters and actually we've seen over the past month so my colleagues from communication science science have been looking at the numbers and actually during the pandemic people having turning more to public media and especially the news channels and and the main news channels here in Germany actually started of a podcast with our it's called him our doctor voucher, but Austin and actually the trust in public service Media so high that the other channels don't really have a chance when it comes to political and news content.

I'd say sounds a bit like to book the promised land the truth being a puta puta.

Well, I guess as long as people trust me.

Yeah, I mean right now, but we sees the majority still trust me public service Media but there is also movement of conspiracies on social media especially on telegram and we have one person who he's been was a cook and now he's a he's fighting for the revolutions whatever the Covered Revolution and has a telegram channel that's been pretty big and influential and actually the day in Berlin and people trying to enter Parliament as laws were passed to Auntie pandemic laws, so there is there is there are of course other places but the majority still Trust public service Media the most and Donald Trump's basically saying that he was The Golden Goose of Fox News but actually he's been The Golden Goose Twitter as well.

There's a little talk about what happens to Donald Trump when he loses his title will he loses immunity from being suspended or banned from the platform? Do you think President Trump or normal Donald Trump when he loses his presidency? Do you think he could be banned from Facebook or Twitter for some of the things that he has said in the past or might say in the future.

Honestly.

I think that's really unlikely you will never be banned and I don't buy the idea that President Trump even after his president is going to focus posting focus on posting on parlour or get up or any of these past Trump is wise enough to know if he wants his word.

If one says content to get as much traction and attention as as as he wants it too.

He needs to be on Facebook and Instagram and and don't forget Mr trump being on this performance also beneficial to the major platforms as well giving his millions and millions of followers and people pay attention to what he posted on this battle.

Anton do you think he's been a bit of a Golden Goose for the whole of Media we've been talking a lot about in the last 5/6 years, but yeah, we certainly have it mean if anything.

He's actually helps liberal Media in more if you look at Fox News ratings have been at record highs, but if you look at the increasing ratings MSNBC actually has seen bigger increases during the trump presidency than fox has and the New York very well custom cells that kind of leaders of the resistance in the print media and it's been great for them.

So I think it away you know it as we were saying this is a difficult moment for fox but I think the opposition is it worth of them may not be such a bad thing you know their share of total cable needed was actually higher during the Obama years, then it has been during the trump years and I think they're brand of sort of rather aggressive grievance based politics might work better and opposition than government.

Thank you very much to Tomintoul our guests today.

We have got lots more to discuss on this and I'm sure it won't.

Is white go away and I'll be back at the same time next week.

It will see you soon.