Read this: Jonny Gould and Liam Thompson talk to Phil Dobbie about radio, streaming and podcasting all coming together

Hello, I'm not Stuart Clarkson this is right in saying welcome to the radio Today programme with broadcast bionics now this week.

We're talking about radio course and podcasting and screaming and our guest host is Phil Dobbie the co-founder of loudmouth Communications he's a podcast presenter and a writer and he's got in touch with Jonny Gould and radio programme podcast Liam Thompson to talk about the two things so take it away film broadcast bionics created of the bionic studio the smarter way to make radio to explore the future of Radio in the age of streaming services and podcast that I have just Googled how many podcasts are there in professor Google says to somewhere between 850000 and 1.

Active podcast the measurements are that precise not all of the most popular is Joe Rogan of course now in a moment to talk to Liam Thompson who is now making podcast after a career as a radio programme at both sides of the story but first of all we all know Jonny Gould of course sports journalist radio presenter when he was radio presenter.

We will be in that 179 is podcasting in my other things does Johnny gold Jewish state podcast for those who are willing to listen is the subtitle football channel for those who are willing to support Aston Villa and various other ones as well stop podcasting.

It's a bit like when you radio and get paid while you're doing it, but he's very democratic and that I guess that is anyone can have a voice you can get into Depp's on subjects and you can go off in any Direction you like that's right and it's an absolute pleasure to engage directly with listeners.

Quick to tell you if they don't like it the interaction with my audience is absolutely wonderful cordial and pleasurable are quite happy to hear subject matter in a narrow area of Interest that they would not have heard anyone else understands get that at villa the fans know full well that I don't get paid for it.

It's centre for them and so it's pleasant most of the time podcast is essentially an outward looking one.

It's not for a Jewish audience.

It's just the starting point is an hour podcast with Jewish values, which means that my guests are from all colours all breeds of all beliefs even some people might have been regarded as enemies who are now allies.

It's about as you say those who listen and those who are willing to do that show on mainstream.

Go to think or is it something that really is only said you can't can you because first of all if you did put out a podcast which was so waited to a certain region.

Nishu.

Are you have to localise it was the old Maxim all Muses local mainstream news coverage.

We learn from the main street me, but maybe that's just cos I'm doing podcast finance podcast that are looking at yield curves and how to control them and all that sort of stuff which is there yeah, but what about when does we've got so many radio stations at what point do they cos they do need to start to Narrow down who their home? You're not because otherwise they will just chasing each other at what point do you?

Places that is too narrow for radio and really this should be podcast territory.

I really believe that radio absolutely needs to take out the content that at 16 for 15-minutes and put it out to become a social media hit I use the example of Nick Ferrari now Nick Ferrari did for Diane Abbott's reputation by her mathematics now.

It's possible that 60088 time north east south west that doesn't know about that incident now and they hurt podcast by Twitter by a YouTube everyone knows the jokes are a great use of broadcasting.

It was wrong.

She didn't do as sums right.

Thank you anyway, but it?

PlayStation to get those document and then spread it through social media.

I mean that's what do you know talk radio station to be coming? They're becoming a vehicle for getting content so you can then social needs to be important messages that get out there in a livestream program and so there is an example of radio stations need to use a harness the extra power of social media not just to get people to actually this valuable time that lasted 12 minutes actually just get them to tune line to the Apple because obviously radio hazard the podcast podcast normally 15-minutes lino have you got so much more to say a radio stations of course broadcasting 24-hours a day often and yet? We're listening to the radio 3 hours.

He surprises me that it's that much but for all.

Sheriff the audiences attention having to be there all the time so I mean with podcast commands to make a standard for 15-minutes even I can manage that but how do you manage it when you go to radio stations go 24-hours? Just has to be excellent all the time and for example BBC sounds doesn't have put presenters under pressure on BBC Radio Derby so you have someone who's an absolute genius Steve Wright in the afternoon who in 40 years.

I don't think I've ever heard in an off day at he preps are showing the morning at night and he is down which killed him during the show and then makes them into subject which century was no one else just you just buy the Average share radio audiences 3 hours a day to listen to Speed write everyday.

That's what's their banking that average happen every single David Bowie

Put on BBC sounds for something that was said on Radio 2 about him the documentary.

I absolutely go for the subject matter as well.

It sounds is revolutionizing the way people listen to BBC Radio nation because it's another thing as it takes away from its reliance on on Apple or you know Spotify it's making its own flat and I think that's a very very welcome balance of power independent.

I guess the BBC producers so much content to make sense does not that they try and get you to listen again almost broadcast radio is is building the content library up and then you go and you can listen to it later.

That's the whole idea behind the one benefit of podcast which is more difficult.

Either way radio course is the the fact that you know precise numbers about who's listening and when they're listening.

How long they're listening for which is good for you as a as a podcaster.

It's also invite you trying to get sponsors to sponsors will actually know that their message has been received from it's amazing the analytics that you can find out Phil and the more listeners the more detailed the song I push the boat out slightly with the podcast which lasted 1-hour and 4 minutes and I was really worried that it was too long and I've made a terrible mistake and should I serialise it from the analytics that easily the biggest podcast ever done told me something really festival content is good stick with it and I edited out as much as I could from this interview with the creator of unorthodox, Deborah Feldman

Netflix smash hit song to do with Facebook messenger and lock down she was at home making coffee and it was wonderful the two things I learnt from it was that a podcast can be long the content is good 86% of people who started the podcast was still listening 55 minutes which was an amazing thing on the other thing.

I found was this really sudden drop of audience at 21 minutes which lasts about 90 seconds and it took that minute and a half of the audience to recover back to The Descent Mark and I thought what on earth is happening there.

Maybe there was a mistake on the technicals so I scrolled back to that 21 minutes.

It wasn't me know.

It was me talking about myself and it was it was it was my attempt to use radio a value on a podcast and what's coming up later like this and that was that was a big mistake.

I do it for a bank in Australia they play pay for it and they're very interested know how many people listening to it, so we say we track the level of Engagement people listening to the last moment 98% We go which is pretty good, but you know they don't want that to sleep and the 98% of 2% is people who are leaving Ride of the very much.

Just as I'm signing off so now I have the quickest sign off ever to try and get the percentage of I just go that's it today.

How to time finishing off before they get to the stop Evan I got it because you never know there are people listening and final question then is podcasting any sort of threat radio is it an opportune radio water? What does it? What does it do about this in a when we've got two as I said so many radio stations around searching for their own niece.

I mean I just too many radio stations.

Are you no more broadcast focusing on podcast the barrier to entry has been lowered.

You know all these providers now saying you know we can program 11 years on a laptop and you can put your radio station streams people listening in the you know the tens now and they're not viable but of course it is about carriage.

It's about legitimacy.

It's about licences and

It should be I think the radio but yes podcasting is a threat Close registrations.

You don't take it seriously and an opportunity for those who do radio needs to integrate with podcast in because we aren't going away good to talk Johnny as always catch you again very soon to Great Moor with podcast let's talk about with their Liam Thompson who was the programme director at launch of the Virgin Radio mark 2 animatic in London before they have been at it since he was 17 years old is a bit of you have programmed radio stations and now you're building up a stock of podcast including the smart 7 which is daily news podcast with Jamie East at others as well.

What what is what is UC between good radio and creating strong podcast fundamental question I think and I think the coming battle is a 1 of linear vs.

When I call atomize contact and radio traditionally antv traditionally just linear you know you put on your waiting for your Bergen to come on.

You know that Sky boxes developed until when you're able to catch up with you could record and eventually you know people became entirely disconnected from linear TV radio still hugely depends on linear listening and I think probably the Sky box is more influential than Netflix maybe but Netflix is huge influence now in terms of you know suddenly your TV is anywhere you can watch all the episodes of all of the things that were kind of really just accepted as facts not that long ago about TV have been exploded and now that he's coming to radio is it is coming to sew podcast have been around for quite some time radio stations play around with podcast but they don't really most of the radio broadcast and I haven't sat and with The Notebook

Most of the radio podcast tend to be sort of best of soul listen back so compilations play again in other radio stations make very little new content or very little bespoke content that would fit the brand new radio has survived largely because it's taxable years of listening and it says if you buy not with us will pay that 6 times over the field of the day and most of audience interaction that once or twice or three times and that's how you do model and you sell the big number and the advertisers like the presenters and I like the they get to hear the ride and there's a sense of community about radio that somebody else might say to them.

I heard your ad on the radio that you know it.

How is he's got to a bigger scale and Martin and nobody not going to the Coca-Cola CEO door on the radio, but the principle of that and the kind of community broadcasting linear listening spend time with us and we'll pop commercial messages into it as we go.

That's still the core.

Model and a bit of radios time has been spent on the music side certainly freaking out about Spotify and music stream.

You know my god.

They're coming to kill us what we going to do.

Let's make yourself.

Let's talk less let's play more music we can beat the streamers at their own game and you know I've been in stations were you know people saying how I talking way too much.

Why you so much Lucia play my music and we get my music in Iver on breakfast as there are more music breakfast shows that will you squeeze the content and shoving is not music as you can and I kind of when I cross the road to the Spotify side of the road and particularly you know smart 7 is daily news podcast at 7 minutes every morning 7 things you didn't know you needed to know you if I was if I was being Gables it's effectively well put together radio news bulletin that we popped out of radio and serve across every platform that goes into a Spotify playlist doesn't he can listen.

Can build I can get into that thing that you're talking about linear vs.

You know being able to pick and choose actually listening to so you can build up Spotify playlist to say we're like this is the sort of music I like I want to hear the smart 7.

I want a business news sports news and that all gets interjected.

So your journey to work actually is almost your tailor-made radio station which is Amy all been thinking about this for a long time, but it's here and how is here and that's where are worrying about wherever here worrying about linear and I will stream your music and do we compared with the music services well on the other side Spotify has gone.

Oh hold on a second We Make Music content available to people listening to podcast what if we had a podcast in and I've done the research Spotify has a really good researcher Emily published a research on website and it's worth going and having a look day today this won't be dramatically surprising to radio people but it should be terrifying at the same time the research shows that when they mix music and

They get more listening well.

I guess that would be but now what that means is that Spotify and Daniel Spotify headsets publicly last summer he said were coming for radio.

They can monetize the time spent listening more effectively that we can because they have more details because they have logged in listers because they know who the people are and they've decided that they can put together contented music in a totally customisable way that radio can't do and then suddenly if you're in radio, you can be going first horse riding the wrong battle with Spotify and secondly.

They're coming around the back trying to take her minutes and monetize them and the share radio and the times but listening to Radio son to throw those days when you know the one you who the local radio station wasn't there you know you had an ad on it then people who come out on the those days have gone to that was almost scale was always local radio station.

International radio stations by and large, but also you know the discoverability of radio is diminished someone as well because started in radio decades and there's only 19 commercial radio station, so you discovered readjust by scanning the dial-in those very station, so you picked One now causes hundreds of them the same as there are hundreds thousands of podcast so the the fact that you're getting an audience just because you're there is disappearing now.

Isn't it? So that so that is a challenge for Radio as well along with the fact that you know you can choose what you want to do it online to head down in the UK that the kind of 16 different varieties of our brand you know the kind of you know any clothes are things going to reinvented that with the word absolution adding extra channels in and push up the numbers and I gave him a good story to sell out but now all the brands are doing that under his new for flavours of magic.

Six flavours of capital Linda's know whatever my three nieces then again.

You know that I have to listen to the 80s but I can listen to the 80s on Spotify and all the transmission costs associated with that.

Do you use those channels to do other stuff or in order? I say even have left channel.

I think if you had to make the choice you know if you have a big brand.

I think you should have a big 10.

You know what that means.

It's not necessarily having 6 small tents that sort of stitch together.

I think you know when you look at it still a massive chunk of radio listening time and minutes in the UK go to bbc.com they have the Ultimate big tent where does contenders entertainment does Greg James you know just some of the stuff that you really want particularly at the moment are doing some really entertaining stuff and it's back to the start of content driven stuff and we used to I used to do focus groups from magic and we sit and listen to people who you know where about the other.

6 years ago and they would talk about so even people who used to use Spotify and they had a kind of a categorisation in the head of the station, so they would ranks of Spotify as utility that would go when I'm at home on my own doing the dishes or something.

I might put Spotify on and listen to my music then can a smooth side just above smooth is very sleek streamlined didn't have as much content and magic driven by well.

It was Neil fox magic was a kind of bigger feel to it a bigger station with more can't talk more promotions that you know of a bigger tense basically and it had a different place in people's Minds because it was more engaging so I think I think about how many tenths you need turn up and could you have a big tent that a lot of stuff came out of and any content that you producing 4 podcast which is not necessarily stuff you put into it.

Make more use of your core brand, but think about what you need to have six or seven streams brands beside it when you could make the core brand bigger and then create interesting stuff alongside at the Spotify Wars because there's no reason that your podcast couldn't be in that Spotify playlist that I couldn't be in there.

You know or take that take that take that concept and reinvented.

You know and you a magic type Spotify playlist that has interesting content about the musicals are the best bits from the different brands are new Continental different brands and customisable with magic music choices.

That's what radio stations have got you know hopefully and program directors been doing the the right job you got an abundance of Talent there that you know the individual podcast as he might have a you know the Glimmer of Talent with one or two as love drop down there as well.

So you know these brands have got the opportunity to Leverage that when you looked and the podcast charts and you see how.

Talent is in podcasting and you know that one of those things that if I work in the station now.

I would be scaring to the podcast charts and going ok, so you've got the skills you got the communication about you you understand a lot of the stuff that we would need you to do in radio.

I wonder should we be bringing them the other way you know that we see people leaving Radio to go to do if you were a program director and you looking for Talent the first place you would be doing you'll be looking at will be scaring down to those podcast charts at listening to audio hearing people you know when you listen to I was just listening to my dad wrote a porno this morning and I've just dropped by that dynamic and how good Alice Levine is on the radio, but not at the radio on this case but that you can ago that you can set a timer to that ability shine through when you can ago God she should be on the radio and yes, she's not now.

You know that kind of so I think it would just got a recalibrate Howie

This look at the value of the dustbin of stuff that we think Phil's a flash and actually say could we make more of what we have in the town that we have or could we find Nutella that we could make workers now the prom it's right now.

Only one in five adults are listening to a podcast on a weekly basis in the UK which is still pretty lonely listen to 6 podcast on average.

These are the latest figures.

I've got so there's a long ago and I'm just wondering what that means to you know if it's anything at the heels of Radio now, how much further will it go and how much does radio need how quickly does radio need to adaptive if podcasting daily takes off.

It's pretty big now, but it's the still lots of Up song is Radio be relieved that it's only at that level the way I would think about if I were sitting in a chair this morning is effectively Spotify needs to be treated like a competing radio station.

They've got 20% reach.

You know that puts the right at the top of the table in terms of

Markets and you gotta pay attention to the black that yeah, that's the radio station to listen to right now that it's not as easy to turn on Spotify as it needs to turn on your on your car, but that's Nan when we get better systems in cars and we've got smart speakers now.

Obviously the more they roll out as well.

It's actually just as easy in fact possibly easier to do listen to Spotify then.

It's the radio station then you've got problems so we're at that base in the game movies for the two armies are charging headfirst at each other across the field and it's not going to be too long before they make First Contact and then the kind of you know we're rushing to their platform airbrushing to apply from both chasing the same audience.

They got technology they've got an ability to monitor is the audience they reach things up a bit.

Where radio stations have got multiple streams should be just be saying like we should just have one stream now and then we need to get into this non-linear game.

We need to be looking at the other bespoke can't people can pick and choose an an ad in the Stream on Spotify house, is that the modulation looking at I think it's probably the best response because the the community and the broadcast platform in the background broadcast is still radio greatest weapon because you know it's hearing in a shop or it's having somebody say to you.

Did you hear that thing Jeremy Vine this morning? You know that that's still that you know what platforms are chasing is user reviews and authentication has had an accident that every time you order a takeaway delivery once have a chat with you.

You know it's there searching for the social proof the validation that comes from somebody else going I heard that that was mad or greater awful her you know when you know there's very few podcast again.

The builders in downstairs doing some tiling over and you say to him Joe Rogan he's likely to go listen to it in the van that you know so that's that shows last over into almost for the radio levels of consciousness, but you know I think having a bigger 10 making more of the content of the Dalek do you have and how much does everything you need and how much space on and really it's not serving the brand in the long-term look I got a simple rolling podcasting when the dog starts barking you coming up everytime Thompson trunking at content do something akin to to BBC sounds, so you can listen back to that content anytime but then my appointment that's looking at credit playlist like Spotify is doing well specialist content can be inserted.

Choose music but keep that one mainstream channel because that is still what's going to get talked about that's what I took out of all of them.

Thanks.

Phil that's filled Dobby speaking to Liam who was saved the dog and also to Johnny as well.

I think we have to remember that radio is what we do in the whole audio industry is kind of based on what radio is done for 100 years so yeah, it's radio first in my opinion and then everything else is a bonus controversial.

Thanks.

Phil the radiator day programme with broadcast bionics creators of The Bionic studio listening watching reacting to and learning from every spoken word Kolo sweet and SMS to a mixed unlock and understand joke on the Bionic studio transformed everything about radio except the way you make him coming up in future weeks on this very podcast with already got lined up some

Herb interviews with loads of different people and will tell about those as we go through the next few weeks and months as well and as ever we hope Stuart find the time to come and do some more recordings Forest now before I go I want to tell you about cleanfeed and whether it's no be an interview or co-hosting cleanfeed is designed for radio and podcast us and now it's simple to connect live audio over the web at the qualities grapes and you can record it to it doesn't cost you anything to get started and you can find out more cleanfeed.

Thank you very much for listening.

Hopefully, we'll all be back together again next week.