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Read this: Chris Mason talks to this week's guest host Darryl Morris

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Chris Mason talks to this week's guest h…

The radiator day programme with broadcast bionics created of the bionic studio the smarter way to make radio hello there are safe from talk radio.

Thank you very much to Radio today for letting me.

Hi Jack their podcast for a little bit and to speak to somebody that I have admired for a very very long time Christmas is a political correspondent for the BBC he's all those people that you'll see pop-up regularly on BBC news on 5 Live radio 4 to present a report occasionally he has BBC breakfast and in 2019 he took over as the any questions on Radio 4 proper institution from Jonathan Dimbleby brexit cast News cast the whole bunch of other things we have a really cracking conversation here a wide-ranging chat about up in Yorkshire is love radio he's radio enthusiasts to his core.

Also his time at Christ College in Cambridge and then on to the corridors of power at Westminster we also talked about how it felt to.

You left to Filth on BBC One for about three-and-a-half hours while we waited for the prime minister to come and do one of his daily briefing that journalism the future of journalism and high Twitter plays a massive role as well a whole industry lots and lots and lots to get into and it started as all good conversations.

Do these days, can you hear? Can you hear me to hear me now? I think it says now you're connected to computer audio.

I think I've got you now.

Hello hello.

Oh yes brilliant were only 10 months into this.

You know paid to be radio broadcast of the way we started here that I saw you on the television yesterday because and it was you were you were account it was it was a by-election.

I can't remember the time.

Anyway, let's into the Andrew Neil doing coverage in the accounts and the reason that they can have really sounds like to remember thinking like that guy sounds like me a bit and he's on the television doing they're doing the report from accounts which was even be that long ago really to be honest with you really refreshing on the on the radio in the sound of a radio and Radio 4 documentary about accents couple years ago off the back of some of these conversations and I and I still think I still think that there's a massive issue really in in British radio that the range of Voices that you here among the most prominent prices in other words presenters.

I'm still actually quite narrow.

Actually, it's got a lot lot better in the last 10 or 20 years and actually I wondered to an extent you know if you go back a generation of so there was The Obsession about how a particular on the radio had to Sound and there was also The Obsession about perfect perfect sound quality and the last years has put paid to our obsessions with perfect sound quality is you and I talking over zoom link and hoping for the best and all the rest of it and at the same time more broadly there's been kind of recognition.

I think across the industry that you know we we need to some more like the people were broadcasting tape.

I still think there's a huge way to go to be honest in that across BBC and commercial radio and hopefully you know as time goes on with her a greater greater range of advices cos they're still huge chunks of the UK that audibly in terms of Sound of people on the are you still do not here? When did you last hear? You know? Where is there a presenter with a West

Accidents on National radio can't think of what is there a news presenter with a Geordie accent no, can't think of one simile and using particular you a certain accents hear more prominently in in entertainment shows but I think I think there's nowhere to go but I think to be fair the various of you.

No bosses and control Program controls.

Whatever kind of get that now should never be overarching factor.

Of course why somebody is is how about what people got to say isn't it and their competence most of it certainly shouldn't be an exclusionary Factor which country must have been in the past that can be the only explanation.

I think there's something going on someone unconscious biases.

They're going on there.

Maybe probably right and I think that's because in radio people talking about having a good voice that quite hard and I get that up to a point because of course the fundamental on the radio is you.

That's point number one and idea ideally you want to be pretty easy on the ear drops of people are gonna turn off of course what easy easy on the year is in the ear of the and I think sometimes has been an assumption that certain sounds are at seem to be inherently better than others.

I think once you account for clarity cos it's there can be no negotiation around clarity then then actually the rest of it.

I do feel it's probably bound up in all sorts of sort of prejudices and unconscious, but I think this is a separate thing Daryl from you know people's presentational Style or skills because I remember when I first started out and I bummed out demo tapes and whatever you know pretty Direct feedback and sometimes people be critical advice what I realise now actually is that those people most of the time? I don't think were critical of any accent.

They were critical around.

And pacing and intonation and that kind of stuff and that kind of stuff we all work on all the time and you get better with practice.

I think that's entirely separate issue from the issue of the issue of access to say I still pick is it it's a colossal I like you remember the by-election can't because what I loved about covering those you could Delight in relatively insignificant news because of course it matter for the on the night, but it never these things really changed the complexion of the government.

They are not particularly newsworthy in the grand scheme of things and it's 3 in the morning and I'm sort of Johnson Andrew Neil on on on BBC One and I think the last year was daughters of the joys and the delights of being able to talk about news that doesn't matter very much we spent the last year talking about the most horrific news you.

Can you can imagine it? Just like a golden age that doesn't it simple as that we also pre-brexit as well, which I wonder if

The accent thing as well and not to be obsessed with this necessarily sort of people thinking all these two to Northern is 10:30 on my accident has changed and nowhere near as broad as it was thick very broad Bolton accent and remember having a conversation twice actually with two bosses because at the time.

I was doing his radio they said if you want to have a career in in him ready if you want to work on capital or you want to work on Galaxy as he was you going to have to flatten your bowels you can have to change your accent of eczema and I think maybe some countries that that that happened to me that that ever happened to you either directly or maybe even you feeling the pressure to do it even if somebody didn't necessarily directly ask you to open directly but I definitely sort of I was aware of it, but then very quickly I became pretty belligerence about it and just thought you know what this is me, and this is how I sound.

I was fortunate that that are sort of careers have coincided with certain in the last decade or so this kind of being fashionable to be your fantasy is is seen as a valuable asset and perhaps if I think back to some of the radio that I absolutely adored of my of my youth in the 1990s.

It was brilliant in so many ways, but it probably wasn't hugely authentic intensive style of delivery at the kind of Voices that were on there and I think you know that fashion at for authenticity as well as perhaps that broader awareness.

We should sound like the people with broadcasting to as probably in the end me some favours and and helps me to stand out really in a in a sea of you know anonymous bland suit wearing political Correspondents which I am one you know.

Who in this crowd of people who look and sound the same in the talking about the same stuff as wonderful as all of my colleagues are how do you stand out will you know they might be things you can proactively do to make yourself a list of course you was trying to do that but perhaps some things that make you stand out just there and changeable and so if one of those for me has been how is sound then, then you know that I guess it's probably been an advantage and you know what they're like.

She now lead into it a bit.

So why not that accent.

So you can do anything about it, and I'm fine pre certain miners kind of mellow debating that when I get back home to Yorkshire I'll have something.

I've got nowhere near as much of the last year's as I would like I'm people often say you're sounding southern now in London it's obviously it's always the opposite side of the beholder, but I'm now contrasting in scripted stuff that I do that if I can wear appropriate and this is a real language rather than

Uno pick a word that is more consciously of where I'm from rather than the environment I now find myself in I sometimes.

I sometimes will do so I talked about having my tea, which I still do authentically anyway rather than to adopting the language of and the language of the South East of England city on the settee that white people or some people anyway the right people at the right people into a bit because language is our currency is it in radio and Dracula think we should as a yorkshireman.

I like to spend my money wisely, so I like to spend my current surprised when it comes to words as well and that you know you'll know from your timing for the hit music radio the kind of word mantra and how important that isn't there for you picking everywhere word very carefully and I'm unconscious you know trying to do that because that's again.

It's only mechanism of

Communication is done something really important that because having regional to send all them but we are regional voices on the radio wherever the from West Country or the north or in Scotland as well in Northern Ireland and the Nation's is as much about having a certain perspective write a story or other situation as much as it is just talking and accent completely absolutely right.

This is exactly it and I think you need to order tea, and the challenge we face you know broadcasting from Westminster is that is arguably more a typical compared with the rest of the UK than anywhere else because it's a global city that happens to be our national capital and worth of uniquely centralised anyways, you know for better or worse and there's an argument we had around that but you know the centre of the UK in many senses culturally economically politically as I say for better.

Is London in the United compare that with America where the political centre is separate from the economic centre with separate from the Cultural Centre I could do with Washington New York and Los Angeles I paint with a broad generic brush there, but only speaking this will be something in that answer if you live as I do in London and see your day-to-day life experiences in London but you're broadcasting to a country which in many cents is very different sorts of ways then at least if you have thought of a heritage that means you to the group elsewhere.

You have family elsewhere.

You're ready in touch with elsewhere you regularly visit elsewhere many questions at normal time start travelling around the country every week then yeah exactly exposes you to a Greater range of perspectives and outlooks which then kind of inform your inform your judgements and ensure that you're not unintentionally blinkered about what matters or watch relevant or what concerns people are delights people to yeah, absolutely.

Houghton and whereabouts British Legion lastikli certainly was more important is making sure that you are that people are shouting at the radio at you.

Not going to hate you sound but because of the assumptions and this is that you might bring as a result of to the way you live in the people you spend your life surrounded by which is an important reason why I stayed up north.

There was a brutal experience doing 5 days a week due to now on talk radio for doing 5 days a week and that was really brutal but for me kind of like my contribution to the station, but you here Bobby Manchester Salford you know that important to me.

Yeah, you know of course it just exposes you to as I say, I mean that's always the national outlet that you think simultaneously somebody in Cornwall and in Dundee is listening and hopefully contributions that conversation either directly calling you.

Calling me on any questions or you talking talking to the radio how to get the radio in the kitchen or whatever we've also fall into the Trap here at 2 northerners tripping on about regional representation 4 hours and you mentioned that you're eating habits growing up yeah and listen to radio.


Take me back.

What sort of informed you're thinking.

What was the first things that you listen to the youngster? I was given a little white battery Powers the handheld radio when I still be about 6 and put it on and the to fit the Toolstation growing up in Grassington in the Yorkshire Dales a fairly close to the East Lancs border.

The two stations are came across with radio Lancashire and the football commentaries the all of the cliches but that's for that reason you know the theatre in the mind and being taken to a place and the voices in the cadence's in the crowd noise and all that kind of thing and then I stumbled across.

Station station news broadcaster, which is rock FM and that kind of coincide with me getting a slightly more better radio basically kind of little hi-fi that would have still got actually and you know discovering rock FM and at the sound of it made Preston what did to me as a kid in a kidney in the Yorkshire Dales Preston but we would only drive through it when we're going out to the M62 I don't really know Preston as there's a place at all, but I felt like I got to know it Tokyo Joe's nightclub.

You know I feel like I spent every Friday night now and I've never been because it was forever being mentioned and the power of Windows formative years.

Yeah, I can name the lineup so we're talking with talking me talking mid90s so

You can talk about Brian Moore doing breakfast Rob Charles on at mid morning.

I was doing lunch times and Kev Seed was doing breakfast and then say Ross is not Greatest Hits was doing drivetime and Glenn Hunt location to cross paths with because he does some shifts at five live visit studio director at was doing the evening so I was joke about Glenn's big one which is the name he attached her.


I kind of record of the week type typed and a music powered half hour at 21:30.

I just loved as I say the kind of the Theatre of the mind the station sound was astonishingly big and an upbeat and proud of where it was from and then you're around about that time the lantic 252 was very big really really big city in the north of north of England and then Along Came century in Manchester which I could also pick up when I

Point for Derrick at Andy's lunchtime phone in and then Tony horn arriving from metro and actually love that because that bit more speech content in there, which I cannot quite quite like to those stations for a massive massive influence and then and then 5 live in the mid-90s that was a huge and I didn't listen to Radio 4 at the time a little bit because my mum's kitchen lights to the meat out.

We have turned it on a lot of time on the motorway that takes off you listening to your list except allensgreen at whatever John Murray and the crucial moment and the football Blitz and white noise anyway, my mum's kitchen lights at the same effects as those of pylons and turn them on and turn the radio Julian worricker and Victoria Derbyshire do 5 Live breakfast I catch a little bit of that and then it goes you know it's getting up for school time and your mum and put the kitchen lights on.

Adventure in the direction of Radio 4 but if I drive with begin to understand that was that was that was that was my mind radio processed and from that point on.

I just would have fell in love with the medium and Fall of the phone.

I have doing telly whether it be at the by-election at 3 in the morning or BBC Breakfast should have quite a bit of and whatever all the online stuff for me my love.

Radio was a medium that can a one-on-one connection the intimacy particularly in tough times like the last year.

I think I just never never be beaten the kind of simplicity of it it in many cents is there isn't a closer in the Firth of telly you just a kind of clarity to the story reference for language and human connection and those conversations are in you have relationships with the right angles does a relationship that perform.

Never knew in your bedroom and Stuart Clarkson of this very podcast and I'm as it happens no school nights at mine.

I was I was in Manchester at one of the party conferences and he texted me and he said I'm out for a drink with Glenn Hunt do you what do you want to come and and I say this with no sense of I'm not a moment meaning to be sort of ironic or flipping hear genuinely you know there are very few people who would have it would have excited me more to meet actually because he was a guy who I listen to every evening any depth on breakfast as well at the time evening in my formative.

What forms the beautiful stop at Sutton my formative radio.

He is so he was a colossal influence of the chance to shake his hand and have a pint in that.

Both of those things that was fantastic and as you say those that the influence and power of those can a voices around radio.

It is just me and there's no equivalent in telly listen to load watch loads of telly at the time ticking television news as you know is an aspiring journalist and numbers of things I could be there with you, but none of them have that connection for me of that kind of relationship as you say that as a listening you have with a presenter or a program.

That's that's just the just sticks with you and when Greatest Hits came on the ivy in London I know I was drawn back to it because Simon Rose Riddim driven at drive time as he used to say on 97.4 was there doing breakfast and then it says familiar voice you haven't heard in years and you turn on and a bit like.

An old friend you think there's a familiarity with nothing quite vouchers for radio like it made Preston sounds like Las Vegas because it's not actually the Manchester in the best.

I want the breakfast but at the time the process that I went there for the first time to grow up in Bolton and so was kind of awkward my location drives the process pretty much the same as he was back in the error.

Your you felt like you were you felt like you were on talking to my phone you forgot.

You were on top of the world right in the world.

I can't believe that because that's how it sounded you what it was doing it knew what it was doing and it knew what it wanted to do and it seemed to me to achieve it.

I wonder if if we're all this.

There's a little bit of a trade-off going back to our

Conversation about voices authenticity between what we recall then and perhaps what we Aspire what is valued now in that sense of course you both does and something that nail its time and nailed it Sira was usually successful even if you are willing to conclude it wouldn't quite sound right now.

I don't know if it's right now because you want a class to be able to come to that judgement, but I do wonder if those two things are are slightly connected.

We don't actually it nailed adira.

That's the perfect way to describe it in the Under-20 you went from bedroom listening to 25 live and rock FM and Atlantic etc to Christ College feels like like hell of a journey at how how was Chris as a yorkshireman accent and all into an institution like Christ's College Cambridge it was intimidating as the is the

Truth I'm incredibly can fix that she died when I when I think back to my to my time now, because there was this to the chippy northern grammar school boy rolling up in rolling up in Cambridge have been persuaded to I couldn't believe that.

I'd that got in.

I've been to a brilliant stage school and very supportive parents are people who were there who were so much more can a humble background then the thing is I think I struggle with a with a couple of hours of a Sunday afternoon near stately home and suddenly.

I found myself living in 1434 3-years the weird thing was was couldn't help but think that can a half the people there kind of seem to instantly fit in and have a feel for the place.

I just found it kinda.

Really weird some people get the impression that person's about the age of 8 and you could ask me a year before and regarded the idea as fanciful even six months before when I was walking through log into my do my A-levels yeah.

Weird things that I remember that just can't hear it.

I told me so we weren't allowed allowed televisions in are in a room now.

I think there was a candy.

I think there's a whole some kind of argument behind that kind of idea which was you know you better off socializing and seeing your friends and all about Robin sitting in a room on your own watching the telly and there's probably something in that no, I wanted to work in broadcasting I can watch the telly and I thought that was kinda kinda Stone Age to be honest and then the other thing because we were talking about rock FM do the things that I had to adjust to you know.

It's my chippy.

He was the hideaway goodbye to listening to 7.4 rock FM huge personality station and all the rest of it and I turn up in in Cambridge and it and the local the BBC local for a better news, but the local commercial session was Q103 small of them smaller than rock and but it just seems so bland over GW

Stations at the time and I know that was the form and clearly at work for them kind of commercially so you might it who might have gone but I just seem so bland compared with compared with rockcrusher towering personality apart from the one voice that sticks in my head from that time in in college was Graham tight did late nights on key 103 on all of their the gwr network and that was a programme that had personality and knew what it was doing and Graham you what he was doing intensive the tone of voice and their conversations.

He was having in the phone calls and the storytelling that was good, but you know I can't think I can't remember in Russian my brains about this.

I cannot remember the name of a single of a presenter on that station in those three years which I think about that about that.

That's all that well whilst Chris try to remember that let me not forget to tell you about cleanfeed because whether you're hosting an interview and

I do some co-hosting with somebody else at cleanfeed.

He's design for radio and podcast and now it's simple to connect live audio over the web the quality is great and you can record to a TV doesn't cost anything to get started and you can find out more cleanfeed net the radiator day programme with broadcast bionics creators of The Bionic studio listening watching reacting to and learning from every spoken word Kolo sweet and SM4 next unlock the bionic studio transforms everything about radio except the way you make it just about to Cambridge where did you find yourself on the scale between frustrated and intimidated to really good question.

A bit of both so I think part of my part of my irritation and maybe a contributor to the intimidation, but certainly part of my invitation in my university years which wasn't a fault because I wanted to do afterwards and when you in a lecture about mediaeval Village formation because I still have geography just cross your mind you know your chippy 18-year olds mind how much use is this likely to be in a newsroom in a few years time now.

I know there is the argument about universe you know it broaden the mind and it's learning for its own sake there's an element of that.

I have come to appreciate in the years since but I can see why that didn't give me that I wanted to do afterwards there.

I supposed to give you a student doing one of those subjects like geography that could basically do in any Direction as opposed to being a yes to the medicine if you want to be a dog.

Most of my contemporary don't have the faintest idea what you're going to do nothing wrong with that because I knew what I wanted to do.

It was very single-minded about that that I think was akin to the frustration, but I think as well.

I just I mean bluntly and it could be as much money as it was the place but what's a people talk? I mean to such an extent that is a cliche that you know are the university is the best years you like it.

Just wasn't for me.

It just wasn't and and and I haven't they grown out of that kind of sentence the years in the years since really AAT the A1 northbound was a good place to be when I left and I'm afraid that's just the kind of the truth of it probably served me well.

It took me taught me things it took me never to be intimidated actually again because I've tried to survive that place and got the measure of it and work mighty hard at the end did alright in the end of the struggling for a few years.

To be intimidated, but yeah, I was glad to leave it doesn't it doesn't send to me like what I would probably feel if I was in that situation.

Yeah, I think it was something positive syndrome and I don't think I'm talking to your dad about this actually.

I don't I still get occasional bastard bad and I don't think that's necessary because it allows you to see yourself in a slightly more detached wave if you're if you're willing to acknowledge that you all thinking what right I got to be here.

Yeah, that was probably a bit of Imposter syndrome but there was also because I'm a sort of stubborn stubborn.

Send so that's in the end.

I thought and I never ever contemplated leaving at the time.

I was there because that would have been Canada feet so I was never going to do that and in the end.

I thought the only way too kind of work my way through this place alongside the candy.

Doing the the media staff is the work out how this place works ticket on the academics.

I did struggling the early early half of my time now to try and work out.

What ward is that? They're kind of after and I was very strict that some people perhaps you weren't intimidated by you know spending three years in this kind of National Trust property and you know not entirely but some of that.

I think was people who have been perhaps to schools that looked and felt remarkably similar and perhaps new old either parents or siblings or who would pass through these institutions before it was just a greater familiarity and it took me the best part of 2 years to actually kind of become familiar with how to place worked and what it was that was revered when doing kind of academic work and then because I'm a very competitive bloke by Instinct by the final year when I felt like I got the measure of the place.

I work like hell.

Alright in the end.

I'm sort of you know in that sense left left in a Freddy sort of upbeat upbeat frame of mind but whenever I'm asked about the best about at Cambridge I said this at the time and I still say it now at the answer is the A1 northbound good very good at the current Imposter syndrome what what sort of situation that you might find yourself in now Chris Leaves you feeling like you don't belong there.

It doesn't happen as much as it did remember when I first presented breakfast television about three-and-a-half years ago.

I had a little pang of it then because there you are sitting on that red sofa in Salford next to the brilliant Naga Munchetty who was the most wonderful person to present that program which for the first time because she was sort of usually reassuring and helpful and took me out for a drink the night before.

With not properly metaphysically before then and that she was just absolutely superb when you're sitting there very first time with your earpiece and I've never presented on the telly before in any as a presenter supposed to report that you know isn't that I can think it would be until it being some of you wouldn't be human if just for a nanosecond thought didn't cross what's on earth.

Am I doing here then and I did the first any questions I have left a bit as she would have the first Only questions that was 80 months ago Reading university about 700 people in the room number St the additive you tell me the room in the audience in the room with this big Adidas to start next week.

Not this week even if we were being broadcast now.

It's like a town hall meeting was quite a thing as nervous for the first time.

You know my own.

When my name is above the doors posted Epping and it is a different feeling when it's your own when it's your own program without without question, but yes I get occasional you get occasional you're also you also picking up my be there as well.

I mean oh my goodness.


Exactly I was thinking Jonathan was wonderful before handing Sherry sort of thoughts and tips needed it for 32 years, so I mean idle 18 months I feel like I know vastly more now than when I started loving you done.

So it's 60 70 shows he did 32 years with the show was thinking with that.

I don't think there is a bigger surname in British broadcast news since broadcasting was invented and two brothers and their father before then.

I'm taking over from one of them.

That is absolutely ludicrous absolute on a program.

That's been going for 70 years and has only had five you know named presenter steps down.

Actual to the names of the door, how ridiculous how you probably helps me in terms of my nerves that he stopped about 6 or 7 months before I started to that was various steps.

I did it for 67 months.

It was a little bit of both of a buffer.

So they don't listen.

It wasn't quite exposed to the contrast between this incredible professional at the peak of his broadcasting powers Egypt Mason telling of a week later still get it now and again.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing and I think they are the great join our game is that you know you're only as good as your last show but the most important sure you'll ever do is the next I don't recall the pressure on here because I know you have any questions later on today feels like I'm some sort of quite used to be behind the microphone and and quite you sort of holding.

Counting and you're trying to send the details story you know it feels like a mountain to climb in terms of keeping people on track correctly people were they wrong been across the details of just posted anything we can sort of a bit of pregnancy what the question is going to be but but it can go into all sorts of different directions.

How do you approach it? Are you approach preparing yourself for 8 on Friday question I mean the last I've learnt is the absolutely key scale of being a speech radio presenter is listening that is the key skill everything else is secondary to that you can make the program sounds significantly better by getting the choreography right and that's taken time to work on so thinking about how many attempts to get through where are junctions forgetting from one question to the next so that you don't get into a situation where it's obvious to the list that you're chasing your tail towards the end.

That's a work in progress.

I don't always get it right and nature of a live debate with for Pamela says Acres you never quite know when it's gonna catch fire and sods law is it will catch fire just the point you're approaching one of those crucial time Junction and you're thinking if I let this catch fire and go is it worth it because that V question I'm quite keen to do will probably be a victim of allowing this to to go but you at listening and I think listing is the key when I listen back to you.

I have the the curious privilege with any questions and be able to listen back at the point that most of the audience hear the program does we go out live on a Friday night, but I'll bigger audience is the lunchtime by about 3 x 3 x 3 orders for Sunday Saturday so I listen back on a Saturday lunchtime having lunch.

So I'm listening as most of the audience is listening and there is nothing more frustrating as the presenter listening to your own show and hearing something that for some reason you didn't hear when the program was going out in other words when it was live the night before anything.

I did not hear that because that's what I should have picked them up on but I think the thing is Reading you know try and read all the time and I'll spend most of this afternoon reading stuff.

We never quite know where the questions are going to go with course until until pretty late in the day.

We got a reasonable idea.

Cos you can go where the news agenda is and then getting that balance try and your face I know this same dilemma really and it's always the Dilemma when you're interviewing people to what extent you let people talk vs.

Interrupting them because sometimes when you let people they tell you the most amazing stuff and sometimes.

We let people talk.

They just took devil forever and you can't be certain that the particular answer.

What do you going to get option a or option B and then when I will have your contributors are down the line as as almost all the time.

They are at the moment for me then you do this roundtable discussion involving me in four panelists and The Four panelists in four different places and that doesn't necessarily help that you've got the bravery to people's broadband and then the doorbell.

The children running in all of that quite nice about that.

That's relatable authenticity about that, but it doesn't make a roundtable discussion easier to handle with no way it definitely makes it harder because I'm out on the road.

We've got Edward on the stage.

I am like some sort of demented traffic Manager waving my arms around like a lunatic and why am I doing that because you know if you can communicate nonverbally take me to manage people dances towards a conclusion polite way of saying shutting your mouth if you can do that without saying sorry will have to move on now.

You know there's only so many ways you can say that and it's clunky and I know it annoys some of our audience you know if you can if you can source of wave your arms around a lot when they're in front of me, then you can you can manage and choreograph the conversation so far more subtle easy on the Airway and people in the whole do you respond when you start sort of just a collecting widely in their face and also when you live audience people respond and

If I can tell the room Transit boring, is there any bit of this new normal that we've come to adapt to that you're quite enjoying I honestly cannot think if I'm really honest either singer ever single advantage.

I missed the travel I missed the yeah.

I just yeah.

Ok, I'm very fortunate, but it's horrible.

I just want to end of your job.

Is is kind of being a cross what's happening in the corridors of Westminster and so much for that is done via.

Just catching people write in a committee member or whatever what what they're thinking about a certain thing and all that part of what you do as been has been just sorted out the job.

I guess so late.

That's a mirror image.

I would say I kind of everyone's broader life really which is that our lives have become a lot fine having a lot greyer on the hole and what I realise is that what is so valuable in day today.

And it's usually valuable in day-to-day, Westminster journalism is incidental conversation is the kind of things that you easily dismissed as being sort of Pointless off.

Just filling the time of day.

We'll actually playlist your personal life.

I can apply some pressure live at the moment if I want to find out what's going on with particular politicians or you know people working in and around him up.


That's fine.

You can bring up all the time in normal times, but you got on the whole you ring somebody with for a reason and that the conversation about meander off that reason once you chatting to them to ring them for a reason why the great value of West ultimate gossip postcode.

Is that you wonder about and you bump into people in the street in the lift in the queue at the canteen in the corridors and you and you chatting for a bit and pick up a little snippet now that a little snippet might not be much value in an of itself, but then 10-minutes later even with someone else and you start Assembly snippets and you start getting a sense of what's going on you get a sense of the mood.

Political party or whatever it might be something you can't measure it's not there's no physical way of measuring but you can feel it but you can't do that with people so they scattered around everywhere and even when you walk around people who know there for some of the time you not like in any workplace the sort of you know you can only walk down this corridor in this direction and if you want to go to the way you could have walked down the corridor one for perfectly sensible mitigations about against the risks that we are facing.

I don't dispute that but it removes like kind of that incidental chat and you know does that make Genesis the German holiday.

Yes, it does does it make it harder to have a properly rounded sensor what's going on.

Yes, it does but you know me what things are giving them both of those things that was fun and journalism in reporting is a huge privilege and you know place.

It's role in the Democratic process and all that can hide behind it stuff which I usually believe it is fun.

It is just great fun and is it as much fun at the moment as it would be normally no, I don't push the Imposter syndrome thing as well, but one element that presumably correct me if I'm wrong is that journey from Una from bedroom in Yorkshire listen to rock FM to the corridors of power been stood on Downing Street your job involves no communicating what's going on behind closed doors on the planet some of the most important people on the planet a place that is steeped in history and privileged and entitlements and in of the establishment.

Is there any element of the episode of creeps towards the Imposter syndrome take it for granted and when you walk out of Westminster tube and you look up at the Elizabeth Tower that houses Big Ben mean.

That's the most arguably the most famous to the building in the in the country and I

On my way to work every day and in fact.

I've got a pass to wander around in there and simile when I walk into Downing Street and say hello to the coppers on the gate and go through security and then you know stand getting raped opposite the opposite that door.

I mean I do that a lot and so you can very easily Take That had been inside quite a lot and you know you can take that for granted when it's kind of part of your of course.

You know when you step back of course.

That's a privilege and something that so few people get the chance to do.

I think the opposite applies for me around around that because the slight issue around people have been at Weston-super-Mare long time and I can't fall into that category now.

Is this the Dangerous you become that bit more detached from from day-to-day concerns you can get swept up in the in the reality of you know sections of the the quote unquote Westminster bubble although that very phrase I can have recoil from because and you might think that's because I've got.

The maybe I have that for me the wonderful thing automatically about Westminster whenever you might think of individuals do policies or parties or people is that you've got this collection of 650 people who by definition of every single corner of the UK and I return expose different kind of the UK the whole time in normal times and come there for with a whole set of Instincts and priorities in the head that reflect a greater or lesser extent where it is the day they represent and be able to tap into that and and perspectives is a huge privilege as I said in that sense.

I think in many ways and peas are far more plugged in to What's Going On by the nature of their day-to-day jobs journalists can be unless we proactively make an effort to you.

No get out and about not being London too often and

Or speak to loads and loads of people who are hearing loads and loads of perspectives all over the country and if you have any good journalist, if he then that's what we're doing kind of all the time.

We must use the Western to defending The Westminster bubble no no such.

It's a really good point you make that isn't it is a really really good point that it isn't as much as it's kind of like a centralised pillar of the establishment.

If you will it is also made up of hundreds of people who every week spreads across the country going experience the country and it said something to me that when you spell out that sort of simple fact which is indisputable fact around how how it works it actually goes quite a long way to offering a can of counter like to some of the just some of the stuff that is logged around about about you every occupier of the postcode really respect of their colour political affiliations being.

You know screaming out of touch defending Westminster Westminster role in our lives democracy.

Can you mention about the privilege of playing the role of check and balance hold to account journalism is in a really interesting places moment a difficult put you on the inside the pressures of technology and Google and mass communication tools and mass communication on the other side from sun to try to discredit journalism for you.

No interest to the discredit what you do.

Do you ever be for journalism to really interesting and a conversation this isn't it? I think the way I can arrest or with this is that I've come to realise or come to the view and maybe you might conclude.

Self-serving view but the never before with this explosion of outlets in this constant wall of noise as far as opinion is concerned.

It's never been more important even though arguably bigger questions have been asked about it than ever before to have outlets in the mix.

Who's absolute central mission is this idea of June partiality this idea that you leave your own views at the door.

You assemble a range of perspectives for telling a story on the news, so you're doing a panel discussion and you challenge all arguments based on the evidence around how that argument is assembled and facts and then you like the listen other viewer the reader decide.

I just think that I so so important.

I'm on my first day at ATM we had it done to us and we were told congratulations you put your opinion it to me operate.

I'll never forget of course we will come with her own every around the backgrounds and perspectives of course and you need new dreams and radio stations and TV stations are as broad based in their backgrounds and perspectives as you in every sense as you can possibly imagine because that just makes for better today.

Just makes everywhere better.

I think it makes all better but for me and as I say you might some people might think this superbly self-serving argument, but I genuinely believe it.

I just think it is so so important.

I'm all for spend loads of time listening to you.

No opinion LED stuff on the telly on the radio on on papers online but I cannot think you you always get a knees and I hope that always be a kind of interesting and market for how that's done commercially or buyer to public funding.

Is done for clear impartial thoughtful journalism and discussion and content and output I just think so so important will there be a growing market or appetite for that or a declining one given the incredibly fast-moving shifts in the media landscape.

I don't know is the is the is the honest truth and I can't even I wouldn't even try and predict because I want these things are just so unpredictable but that would be my one sort of real.

Hope broadcasting Rise that that that that that is what they'll always be a desire to produce an increasingly because if there'll only be a disaster producer if there is a market for it, so when an interesting it by the by the audience that is still something that is I hope I'm always to be to be valued by by the audience you feel like it's under threat you have to keep making the case for it, so I suppose the Direct answer to the question is

Yes, I'll give me arguably it is because more questions are asked of it and in the internet here if you like a blast 2025 years where we can so easily be exposed to such a broad range of stuff from all over the world in the way that is so different from you know back in the mid-90s analysis into rock FM and radio Lancashire and that the physical number of Media outlets, you could you could consume with finite work that you couldn't quite count them warm hand but you can count them on the fingers of a couple of people's hands and you know what you used to get excited when I went abroad should I be able to pick a copy of that you know whatever it might be New York Times or whatever because no one else you.

Could do that.

Sort of stuff presume internet so I think yeah, I think in that sense that the the revolutions was a sweeping through the media and now and that younger Generations particularly teenagers and those in their 20s.

I've seen nothing other than does mean that you have to remake the case for the kind of broadcasting structures if you like that were taken for granted because they were the only things that were there so to answer your question directly yes, I think you of course you will have to sort of make that case then of course you should because whatever outlet or whatever you you work for if you can't make a compelling case for people to to want them as part of their lives now then you've got no reason to assume that you can carry on existing sense of course but I think it's an argument that has to be that has to be made.

I've never struggled with the kind of concept of impartiality find it a liberating and hugely valuable central tenet of kind of everything that I do but I struggle to be impartial about the notion of impartiality because I just

Is so so important for me? Is it is the the thing that is at the absolute core of what's the motivates me sort of journalistic Lee and that's not to denigrate those who are in in the Business of Being far more opinion lead of course they should be that should be space for that as I say I listen to loads of it myself but for me that's the driving kind of motor motivation.

I've never any desire to do stuff that is that is led by opinion as opposed to being led by the bedrock of due in June possibility of creating something that you would fancy gear changing into a no.

I know I wouldn't be home because I don't I don't I don't have a coherent set of views about stuff.

I don't spend any time thinking about them.

Thinking about ideas and arguments and you know what's the weak point in this argument or that because that's what I paid to do in terms of challenging scrutinising but no, I don't I don't have I never really to be honest, but I've had less and less of the longer have done the job of course she was going to check your own your own prejudices and your own Instincts and all that nobody you know we're all human beings none of us can sale above it all entirely but I think is as a basic kind of principal and I do think it's something worth arguing for making the store and defending so you know I would never go into that kind of thing and neither would be hired to do that because I'll be open at it because what do you think about X and what is a bit of this? I wouldn't want to do it and I wouldn't be able to do it.

That's a neat tessellation of two things and stuff you really want to do but people won't let you dick sure if the stuff that you don't want to do and you wouldn't be able to do and no one will hire to you too.


That's kind of a good thing isn't it? That's a neat tessellation of things that are never going to happen.

If you've got lots and lots of Reading to do for any questions, but I've got I've got two or three more lines enquiry if you go for it.

I'm in the interviewer interviewee that's not a bad dynamic.

You are not afraid to respond to criticism on Twitter I've noticed that you feel like you skewed one-way with a vox pop or something like that.

Yeah forwards in insane actually here's my thinking behind the journalism.

Turn lists need to do it more of that is just a stand up for yourself a bit more sometimes social media in theory is meant to be this sort of two-way street.

So maybe was always been to reply and I do reply to most people and I think it's not unreasonable that the lay person doesn't have a rounded understanding of say the newsgathering process or the assembly of a report or indeed the absolutely fundamental bedrock that notion of June partiality or indeed understanding.

What that concept even is so I think it's important to kind of an offer an explanation my kind of strategy is always to be I'll happily be quite sort of Direct and an answer somebody directly but I always try and make sure I'm sure there's 23 examples of have failed because I always try and make sure I'm polite particularly in response to people have been anything other than that and I can understand the Temptation of somebody to.

Sort of shouted someone who is perceived to be so I don't know in authority or in a privileged position so I can understand the human Instincts do that but the yes to engage.

Yes to explain the problem of course of Twitter is you know there's no there's no depth there.

Cos you know the offer a couple of sentences and things then look very kind of staccato and blunt and direct when if you're having a convo coronavirus and people to be more nuanced and you know you would see the smile you can't really see the smile things what we see much more bold and Blunt so it's far from Ideal isar x imagine myself thinking of this is ridiculous national be on Twitter I should just give up on it and would save oceans oceans of time it would but I think I'm addicted if the truth be known and also it's kind of tool journalistic.

I still think I could use it journalistic and spend less time on it which is an ongoing and I'm going battle but yeah on the whole I do think.

Is important I really do Tuesday which is incredibly proud of that is impressive, but the problem is that actually ok, but I could probably do with ramping up my game a bit and you know and do a bit more but it is I wondered if I wonder if maybe you agree with this all those things that you would I really love about radio the power of it how you can say really get into the nuances of things everything that I love about what got me into this job is completely absent from a part of the job that is formula of so important.

Yeah, that's a really important distinction actually it doesn't have it doesn't have a sophistication and the Range that the radio conversation can have where you can hear someone's voice and their tone and a tumbler of their voice and then pacing and the language that they choose and you can hear with their smiley or try it.

You know that there's a sophistication its three-dimensional and it's intimate and Twitter is none of those things because it's not sophisticated is not three-dimensional and it's not know it's kind of here to stay and it's an important element of the kind of you know broadcasting apparatus that we all can of crackle with but I'm I'm in to me of the kind of Instincts that it's not a lot of positive contributor to my daily experiences.

I've just looked by the way I've gone 14 hours without eating which for me.

I mean that's the last last night about an article I dread it was an interview with the national radio presenter and the question that I took a picture of what would people be surprised to know about you answer I have a third nipple.

Who was the who was the radio presenter doing until you get to the end of your last.

That's a good seeds good.

See that some radio craft of three lines enquiry euronics in March this year.

No not this year last year, but we all just feels like one big roll and messed about the interaction and that you said that you the you said in my new messages to me.

I thought the brexit was incredible story cover but this is off the scale if you could have taken just take a bit of a breath and think the weights and the scale and the size of of what has happened since you took on the role that you know have and the stuff that you have covered is that has become a little bit overwhelming.

Yeah, I mean what's been really striking about this covering the pandemic.

Is that I realise when we started covering the pandemic that the great luxury.

I'd had in almost every c.

I covered in the previous best part of 20-years.

I had been detached from I had been the the reporter who turned up looked at the store told her and went home and effectively left it behind at work or lesser extent do a some stories.

You know it could be personal stories that stick with you because they're just incredibly moving.

There are the brexit that kind of covering the national conversation for a long time but then a pandemic come along and what I was drunk because we were stuck at home for a fortnight write.

The Beginning is one of my little ones got some symptoms and I'm was that this was a story nobody had the luxury of detaching themselves from we were all participants and I revere in my normal ballistic work prior to the pandemic being the Observer not the participant.

I don't want to be a participant.

I want to be an Observer but this pandemic doesn't afford that luxury and as I say that.

The beginning with all stuck I will find the ending and you know being stuck at home for a while.

Just become entirely normal, but at the time it didn't feel it.

It's been extraordinary hasn't had this briefing incredibly naive month which was Jan 2020 so we just had a general election a sizeable majority government has been elected jeopardy around where the brexit would or wouldn't happen had gone because it was about to happen and yes, I was going about trade deal that kind of stuff but basically jeopardy have left the building politically after that incredible period where it hung in the air of every building in Westminster everyday week and I thought to myself you have to try to Westminster for quite a while.

I've just covered all these elections and referenda and bloody bloody blah and here we are and it's not going to be very exciting anymore and I wonder if Blunt I should go and find another job and do something else because maybe covering politics has never be quite the same again and then what happened.

You know about six weeks later.

We're in the mid.

Pandemic and I was reminded us to me.

I was told when I first started working at Westminster which is a great joy of it is that building over the road from our Newsroom a parliament is not only the biggest news factory in the country in terms of the stories it generates itself, but every big story locally regionally nationally and internationally gets channeled through it so even though a pandemic is that my colleagues health are kind of all over and have been covering extraordinarily for the best part of a year obviously in a pandemic huge elements are political decisions, so they become the job political Correspondents report and so suddenly having covered what I thought was pulled the most extraordinary story.

I would ever cover brexit two months later.

It was shown to be a very passionate arguments about a battle of political ideas and that's not to denigrate.

How important those thoughts and ideas and arguments are but that's what it was and is and Along Came

That was this real and present danger to our health and to our liberties into our businesses and our economy and our education and always have life the likes of which haven't happened in times of most people in this country right now suddenly working front of the side by this colossal Story there's nothing more compelling as a journalist and covering stories that you know the audience are attached to and it resonates with for whatever reason and clearly because the pandemic is something that is so Central to all of our lives at the moment, then when your reporting on it.

You can be reached a bit shop will not be sick of hearing about it, but people you can be reasonably sure that people can be engaged in what you've got to say because it matters to whether or not the kids go back to school at some point in the coming weeks or their business survives or they'll pay that furlough money or whatever it might of the Universal Credit whatever it might might be and so journalistic clean entirely selfish self-centred sense, you're very conscious that you could be a story.

Matalan in that sending a job satisfaction send you know when you feel like you're making a difference because what you're doing is being listened to and consumed and valued then it feels like you're doing something worthwhile.

I have to say I said this to a bossy of the day actually very rare that you're here in German that they're quite like to cover a boring story but between you and me down.

I wouldn't mind it.

I wouldn't mind covering some crashing your boy story cos if I was allowed to cover a crush on your boy story that would probably mean the schools are open the pubs are open I can get a decorator in to sort out.

There is problems in the house and very low and another words lives returning to to normal.

I'm almost up for doing a couple of boys story the trade-off.

Is that we can have our lives back.

Yeah, the earliest months of it March to to the summer period appoint myself.

You know.

I don't ever remember being a part of something or talking about something in all of my broadcasting career which has always been kind of music.

The reaches into every single person that is listening every single person that is consuming what I'm saying right now is being affected by it and including the Invention including you hear about about so just need to take a bit of a break from it levels nature of it was getting a bit much for me.

I just wondered how you your position being on a Frontline of sorts.

It has been for you.

How are you? I'm fine.

Thank you know I can't think of any advantages as play the current situation at all and I'm craving for it all to be over and all the rest of it so so in that sense.

You know like so many others I just have worn down by and sick of it, but I'm not hospital that's about half an hour down the road from tomorrow house where goodness knows what it's like, where's what do I do? I mean I sit in front of the Macarena in front of the camera and do my best to try and keep people informed really I'm so it does mean.

Surrounded by it but as you say because everybody is constantly surrounded by in their own way because you might be I don't know on furlough or you might have been made redundant or you might be working on the Frontline in ICU at hospital or whatever in that sense.

I don't think my experience is is any difference from anybody else's other than the upside the upside being incredible privilege to be selling a story that matters to so many people to be in stable and fulfilling work and to be able to get out the door and going to a workplace a lot of the time which for my well-being feel like day today.

Is it is an element of normality? That is a luxury at the moment because people don't have it.


I kind of feel like I've been coping relatively well.

Tell you more miserable than done but I think that might have happened anyway, so yeah.

Understanding and grappling with the things that are the most compelling things about our time and you know clearly for all the wrong reasons this this pandemic.

Is is is that in spite ok final line of enquiry could not mention this Halloween 2020 famous night where we got the news that there would be a briefing from the prime minister at about 4:30 or something.

It was delayed a delayed and people didn't see it or come across it but you were on National Television effectively filling right for like 3 hours or something like that.

Yeah, so it was me.

And it was one of these news conferences on a Saturday afternoon of which have been loads and they often run a little bit late, and it was you at 4 and what's been happening.

Is that you know BBC1 have been taking these conferences as well as the BBC News Tyne and so suddenly rolling use goes mainstream, because the audience figures a huge and yeah, basically we had a long wait.

So I went in to chat to reach.

Sorry it was Rita who deserves all the plug.

It's really good.

I was just kinda sitting next to her and waffling away when when we needed to fill a bit of time which is it turns out we had an awful lot of time to fill she went on there before 4:30 by the time she went on it may have already been pushed back by half an hour on a number.

I thinking about 4:50.

I'd said on the are you know this news conference is going to be starting at around about 5 and I got a text from somebody in Downing Street's was clearing watched in.

By somebody who said when you say around 5 you might be better off staying from 5 and I replied and said do I take the from means it's going to be rather later than around he was from 5 could mean 5:05 and around 5 could meet 5:05, but my job at Westminster it to be you know her prince language and every flipping word counts and I did say I think you know I won't blow it out.

What time you say, but it helps as plan if we have some idea about when it's like if you want to tell me it's gonna be a long way off.

I'd rather hear that now the nose keep telling the viewer that it's imminent.

There was no reply so I kept on talking and I start I did look I think this is going to sleep a little bit because that's all I think that's a reasonable interpretation of the word from and then I got a text about quarter past 5:20.

So we've been we've been wasting away.

On BBC One for about an hour with not a lot to go to because we want to go to anything as we expect to get any moment you know he was going barrel through those wooden doors and the press conference get underway.

I don't got a text from somebody else and Downing Street that suggested it.

Would it would it will be happening within the hour now of course again within the hour can be five minutes away, but it can also be an hour away so I then played for even more time on the end, so it's getting pushed back quite a while.

I think it might be around about 6 and possibly was thinking if I say something that they think is wrong will text me and I'll quite happily so we'll actually have known as me 5:30 quite happy to do that but give me work replying to my texts all the time partly because to be fair to then.

I don't they were quite sure what time it was going to be a lot of moving parts and obviously the problem.

I've got a country to run and make sure the date is in the right place and make sure you know what we're going to say and what the implications are going to say and you know the

Devolved administration governing is complicated in the meantime.

I'm such a whistling on and what were becoming increasingly aware of is that this was probably casting to a bigger audience than I ever had an ever will broadcast to ever again because we were heading into Saturday night prime time and I was getting wind at the Royal sort of conversation going on a very senior level within the BBC about exactly when this was going to happen because we were running up against strictly which was his live and his massive and at one point I did point out to the viewer that they may have either turned on for a program involving Little Mix which have been beaned overturned on the Strictly and instead had retry waffling away for Britain because we looking for this news conference and there's a few of you may feel a little short changed but the viewing figures were astonishing.

Combined the peak viewing figure was about was north of 20 million.

I mean that's yeah.

That's all.

That's only fools and horses territory from the 90s.

You know there's no for 20 million and the combined audience across the press conference at 6:45 and then finished just to Strictly started about that because it because it did finish bang-on.

Went straight into strictly got a better not deny the nation strictly was that I think it wouldn't be I wouldn't be revealing any state secrets if I said that I think it was pointed out to down straight when strictly was due to start and that's the scope for flexibility around when this news conference may happen if they wanted it on BBC one was going to be limited.

Particular window and therefore perhaps you know either get on with it before hand or wait until wait until afterwards or whatever time as well, wasn't it by the prime minister to be fair? It was it was couple with a I think probably are willing as for strictly to slip by a minute or two if he was if he was over running by a bit but yes, I think there was there was a bit iffy going on I had some nice text from some quite so senior people in in government and broadcasting after that cos it's all those moments entirely complete flute be able to be me doing that by the way that day.

It was just a fluke of the road and what I was asked to do when it could easily have been I should have 2-minutes wonder before the news conference and turned into sort of the best part of three-and-a-half hours and you it was one of those days when the the director and the editor of the program at one point, can you keep this exchange quite short no more than 6 minutes and I was thinking normally when I'm sitting in this chair.

I might do a 50-second answer or one minute 30 would be regarded as a long live and I was asking to keep contribution short to 6 minutes to our brilliant moment actually.

I'm not that this did really cementing in in the Nation's psyche, but but in that moment actually you know that we just got a sense of how good you are at your job both of you when you're right.

You're right as well.

How important you are and not to want to beat of two sycophantic but actually how lucky we are to have you who is able to do that be across the detail do do and do it so diligently to say I mean I think it's I suppose it's that plastic thing isn't the moments like that if you know when those moments I am if they come along at the right moment for you as a as a journalist as a broadcaster, then what people see is the is the the the little bit of the iceberg above the water and they don't.

What has contributed to that which is the the air Miles that you assemble over a career of all the different types of broadcasting that if you are fortunate in our line of work you might get the chance to do and I did keep I did keep a cutting from the Craven Herald my local paper back home in Yorkshire that said 16 million watch Craven boy waffle waffle on forever something like that and I thought you know what that newspaper the first place that I did journalistic work experience has got rightly journalist the document and a knack is the crux of the story because that was pretty fair reflection of what that amounted to a lovely Full Circle for you.

Love you and you're right to say that you know the iceberg there, but that is his decades of professional craft and as much as those decades have been leading up to 8 tonight when you will go live on Radio 4.

There is also a little bit more iceberg to the

place a little bit more reading to do before any questions, so I'll let you get on with your life, but before we do that Chris I've been waiting for your drones or something that you might have used in your in your hip music radiodays solicitors prospect magazine which is one of them is my wife called that dropped at the front door interview with the radio presenter and it said then what would people be surprised to know about you and I have a third nipple not the same size as the other two but it is definitely and and the possessor of that third nipple is James O'Brien

Is life that we didn't know we needed really really enjoyed it.

Thank you so much.

I think that you would such a lot of the stuff there at the importance of what you do and the diligent with you.

Do it.

I mean it sincerely.

This is not smoke being blown or being sycophantic for the sake of it.

I genuinely think you know actually there's a country and there's a democracy.

I think we are incredibly lucky to have someone of a cog.

You know one of a cog and your part of the car wheel wheel of what we get to do, is that it matters doesn't it in terms of you no Democracy in an informed country and all that kind of time and it's tough but at the same time it it doesn't matter you know it's not teaching the Next Generation to read it's not putting out a fire.

It's not saving somebody's life and hospital and I kind of level in that kind of it matters, but it.

Good point well made other don't mean to do it as I've known for a long time from listening because the the joy of having a just under 2 year old son is that I am frequently off when you are broadcasted tonight and the last hour so at home.

What is obvious as a listener to me which is that you were brilliant interview.

I asking just terrific questions that get people to talk about hopefully that is Instinct so that's up to you.

That's very kind of you and I still recording some definitely keeping that in compliment or around well done Carol and thank you to Chris as well, but coming on This podcast over an hour of entertainment.

We don't normally go over an hour don't know why it's just something about the 60 minutes, but thank you very much for containing to listen and will have something.

Will be different but probably the same next week here on the radio Today programme.

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