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Read this: Andrea Coscelli, the watchdog taking on the tech giants

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Andrea Coscelli, the watchdog taking on …

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 for speaking to the media show took this job at the competition markets authority you know obviously know that technology was going to be a growing part of your email and inbox.

Did you say back then your job interview that you felt that new powers will probably be necessary no because at the time.

I think I was thinking many are there are superbly our existing power source efficient and I think as many others now.

I've looked at the evidence looked this happened on the last few years and have increasingly become convinced that powers are needed to do with it and quite interestingly some of the outside thought leaders internationally have had similar to unless you've been posted so I've been there.

Negative for four-and-a-half years now and then I spent two-and-a-half years in one of the deputy chief executive roles before so what changed in that time.

It's made you go from thinking that new powers were probably not the position you advancing today which is a new powers.

Clearly are necessary to build the strength or some of these platforms and particularly outside 810 years ago number of people including me filter dynamic competition with work that you know your sense deleting platforms today got there through innovation great idea status place others and we thought back down others would do the same but hasn't really happened anything anything some of these platforms have grown from strength to strength in the meantime.

Let's Go Forward right forward as you said as you have done to the present day and I would ask you some questions to set the context of maximum 10 words.

Please minimum one will expand on these themes.


Do Facebook and Google constitute a duopoly in digital advertising competition offer not always competition code for scissors? Yes in which case logically are Facebook and Google I mean there is an issue that needs to be tackled.

They have around 80% of the UK's 14 billion digital advertising market is that too much?

What is not an ideal situation so we think will be good if we go to situation when other so the biggest share of Mark there's a 7.3 billion lb search advertising market in the Google has around 90% of that is that too much? Yeah? It's a problem.

There's a 5.5 billion lb of your own CMA figures 5.5 billion play advertising market in the UK Facebook has more than 50% of that is that too much yes in a sense the open too much economic power that Tracy number distortions first four competitors secondly for consumers and at some level potential in terms of the political process in some cases and so we in general terms like to see markets more competitive with more players with more diverse your players as we think that delivers better outcomes.

Is the implication of what you're saying that far British regulation of these platforms has been too weak to non-interventionist.

What one important points are for your listening of the bear in mind is that a lot of the regulation of the plot of something that in Brussels by the European Commission until the end of December because as you know what is a group of platforms in the division of labour pre-brexit was very much that European Commission was take care of Pan European global issues for the Citizens of the £28 in the UK broken up there are some people argue that our current proposals is not to break them up is to have for competitive or regulation to deal with some of these are but it would allow the company to maintain order current activities.

They have the web that we have today is based on free access the idea if you link two people you don't have to pay for it price of that freedom is the our personal data get used by these companies some of them some of them who sell them to advertise on Facebook and Google advertising companies.

Do you think we're approaching the end of the era of the free web?

Well, I don't know I'm Innocence that's the way has voltammetry seems to me as our society.

We just need to ask ourselves a number of questions including this one and I think was very important for people is to constantly think about options and alternatives and see how things can evolve tension in a better way going to Australia in just briefly on that was quick fire round should learn from Australia's intervention in the relationship between poverty and technology companies.

We are definitely following what's happening in Australia I personally took why frequently the head of the Australian competition authority was been quite important in discussion Australia because we think they are dealing with problems.

We have in the UK as well, and we think that coming up possible solutions to that are many variants to it basically.

I think it's very important data points for what we could do in the UK if you come back to Australian seam detail let's talk about.

What the competition markets authority does in this terrain and particularly something called a digital markets unit the DMU the government announced Just For Christmas the setting up of the digital market unit within your organisation, what is it? So it's a regulatory unit and it's a compliment to wear doing using your existing powers is essential if you think about it is a bit like in financial services market regulation and competition what we're saying to government is that then he's been more regulation alongside competition powers in our this place and regulatory function it's sitting with this DMU and the government's make sense to have it as part of the of the competition and markets authority is important to bear in mind that legal powers are not there yet.

So what the government has done has created and function is digital markets unit has given us the funding from the 1st of April to get on with it, but what is critical to the powers can only Council primary legislation so government has promise.

Producer prof below are coming months and actually going to be very important part of it is a complex area it's it's distance within that people in suits like me and you talk about 5-years.

Is it something that was first proposed by using? What's the evolution of this particular unit evolution was initially a report by a general Foreman with an academic in the you used to work and Obama administration was commissioned by the Chancellor of the furnace review him out a couple of years ago and it was Foreman and A4 USB play basic Dynamics and we thought it was a very good report and your recommended this type of property regulation so I and others really liked what they come up with and what we said to them.

Governmental was well.

We think there is a lot unit and we would like to take it forward and so the government last year decided to commission as to essentially the taskforce with Ofcom the information commissioner's office and the fci to come up with proposals for government which is what we did was slightly delayed because they offer was in the request came up a week before the first down.

So where to pause a bit because obviously want to talk to all the stakeholders are saying it was quite difficult to do with March and April so we started again in the summer and buy Christmas we presented proposals to and government is considering them and the process now should be I think consultation paper a white paper by government leaving to a draught beer to go in front of Parliament we discussed the House of Commons House of Lords and then hopefully legislation you say FC contact with you said you like the furman review why why because?

Skippy was for me as a very important principle which is what we need to care about is is competition in Marcus is not about individual business.

It's about creating goodacre sister if you think about the UK economy and the fact that you know as we know emerge from the pandemic.

We really need to have a thriving dynamic economy in a good businesses to grow pro people pay taxes all of that and I think that was very much about creating is ecosystem, so it's not about in a we need to have a single large players in this player in this market.

We need a number of companies who can grow can be the next Google the next Facebook can you not come up with good ideas and stand a chance to succeed the concern now is that can some of this market is so hard to go head-to-head against Google in search against Facebook and social media that no one is really coming up with ideas getting the funding to do that and that this property regulation is.

Create is leopard playing field and to give companies a chance to grow successfully you experience why is it so hard for these companies to merge that we rivals do for example Google and Facebook what is it about Google Facebook dominance don't hear please? What is it about their power that inhibits the smaller companies that would like me their competition but I think it's a combination who sings my personal very good company.

It's not very effective companies that many thousands of extremely good people and they now have such a strong Atlanta Georgia Odyssey all the data.

They collected you know the information that Google today has about you or me or Facebook for use them is phenomenal and they also refined the way they analyse information the user information and if your stuff from scratch is just so hard if you think about Google in search as you say as more than 90% of the market in the UK they have had it.

Who is there only competitor with struggling to keep up with that is being owned by Microsoft which is another trillion-dollar company so we were talking about here is Microsoft is trying to keep up and compete with Google it's not a start-up is an amazing company with amazing people as well.

So it's just this strong advantage.

So what we need here is to create the conditions so that others are able to compete in future and come up with alternative so it was the question you to the network effects of data if you like the compound connect to data and I hope you make the comparison between data and oil to think is very limited in a locked away.

So all is finite data, superabundant and so but there is something specific about the nature of data, which was fantastic engineering allow them to get out data the longer than the incumbent if you like the nature of data means that their growth and a dominant to candle exponential.

It's not like oil.

Give you all to some other people or give that oil-filled over there to decide the company.

It's something about the nature of data.

Could you explain why data tends towards monopolization just the volume of data, but also the ability to analyse data to deal with problems with date and the analysis of data and solving the problems play Frankie also the ability to constantly attract the best people and again you think about a new young graduate from what everyone in the world.

It is very attractive to go to Google because it's a great company.

They have great data.

They pay really well, and you're dealing with very complicated problems which is very exciting for people so there are positive things about the dominance of this company is the problem is we need future companies to be able to do that as well unless concern we have is one of the other reasons that regulation has had not get paid.

That technology companies are of their nature global and regulation is of its nature a domestic national democracy, but also regulates.

Yeah absolutely I think it's the first time in history that you have truly global Monopoly So In My Water then.

I feel look at the history of antitrust in in America talk about you know to fight against Standard Oil as you say and there was in a massive 5 years of work to deal with that guy was just in a single country here is the first time will have this problem here in the US Europe and Asia everywhere.

I'm just a few exceptions in touch restrictions as you know so it is his new and that's why I think we need the termination when a lot of international agreements inquisition which is happening this a lot of dialogue Going On by is generally difficult with total edition market unit what do you expect?

Achievements first 12 months so basically we will do a number of things so we will continue using our existing power so we're planning to launch other and cases as we come out to the Brussels orbit post-brexit is important to bear in mind for your listen as a dark today in Brussels somebody be cases against the big companies including the UK market and these cases we go on trial 2021 20-22 and when they finish it would have good results for the UK as well, so that's an important component of it on top of that we are doing our own cases, so we're launching new cases were looking in digital largest acquisitions were looking into Consumer Protection cases also making sure that the wedges platform centre consumers is the right one and in parallel to that we are working closely with government to support government for the legislation sentence with a consultation and take him for.

You're busy when united January now.

We're trying to do something used for an advantage of me.

I think for me one of the regulation.

I mean I think most people shouldn't worry about regulation shouldn't care about you didn't pay to care about regulation that's fine by me, but I think all of us is consumers would like to feel it when you know when you open up a new app and you see your privacy very long privacy notice any click.

Yes, you want to think there is someone was actually thought about it and it's taking care of it because you don't want to see my son and exciting thing to do so for me the business where it is trying to sort problems without people really being aware of it.

So what you see your rollers make sure but I think it's not as what we do is complicated and the same life is liking or you you know you go and get a job now for covid-19.

You want to know that someone is worried that the vaccine is safe and effective but you don't really want to worry yourself about it, although the science behind it and I think that's a bit the same.

Are you a real shopping the doctor Koscielny is on the case? This is what we talked about companies that have what is called strategic market status produce define that you would be there be a case-by-case determination of a handful of really powerful companies were we say there needs to be an extra layer essential of regulation on top of what he's in the law and that's because they are big powerful their market power has been there for number beers and they're really important for vehicle system.

Ie there lots of businesses and consumers heavily dependent on them definition explanation haven't Google and Facebook crossed the threshold for Strategic market status.

What does possible the realities as of today with children have the legislation to do it? So what were saying you need a legislation so that we look at what the word is like now.

Can you pause this designation? I agree with you if we had this particular legislation in place 5 years ago.

Maybe someone would already this ignited by now.

Look at what's going on in was going on America in Europe you mentioned Brussels a couple of times and people say actually for a very long time these companies have been largely untouched.

You know Google is founded in 2004 had a relatively Free Run defence to them and I'm going to put their defence at the moment.

They say we what we welcome regulation.

We want to work with people like Dr Shelley and and and there's new laws that allowed to be covered in two boxes to function, but how would you characterize what I might suggest is a relatively laissez-faire kind of approach to these companies over the past decade or so?

One is that the earlier things happen very fast and him anyways and obviously the pandemic.

You know who knew about the pandemic impacts on top of everything else and some things happen very fast and nothing against you look at history regulation always follows the events a bit early.

I would say there is an issue with with a us in the sense that historic Lee the US did a lot of the heavy-lifting on regulation on this global where us market was a big part of it and I think it's fair to say that the US for my two reasons haven't done their part over the last 5 to 10 years and we globally I've been a bit slow to realise that and to think they would just be just get on and do things to their credit the European Commission have.

Quite a lot of work in this place before others and there been for cure of heavily criticized because if you was that they were finishing American success, which was I think about it wrong reading it.

So you know Margaret of a stalker came in during her first term should a very strong term she decided to take on this planet absolutely the right thing and I choose some good results early on she was criticized for it.

So I think I think now there is much more coming on if you've been tent between as the European Commission administration in the US there is much more I can do attitude to it the complexity remains the need to touch of coherence Remains very important person in my view is that we just need to get on with it a nice one of those things were never going to have perfect in international cooperation.

We should just

Stop doing what we think is right for the UK and convince others with the same which in many ways to be honest is approaching Australians have taken over the last couple of years and I've certainly been very supportive private and publicly of the approach taken, so don't let the perfect be the Enemy of the good just I know you're a regulator your steadfastly neutral in politics, but you say that there's a variety reasons over the past 5 to 10 years has not played its historic role of leading regulation.

Would you what are those reasons in the US over the last 20-years have taken a free market approach to regulation and I trust and so the my counterparts in the US independently of the political parties in power have struggled some cases.

It's probably more than we would in Europe and that has nothing to do with their appetite.

He was literally the course of made it really difficult for them to achieve somebody's results and

I mean, I think the trump administration had at the regulatory approach across the window across many areas and that obviously hasn't helped in terms of bringing in new regulations new registration because I was not what administration wanted to do what's happening now.

You have the agencies with the new leadership are quite committed to Action the worst food crisis in decades in the US launch by at the end of the trump administration that we continue our proposals now in the US Congress senator klobuchar came up with some proposals a few weeks ago and have to wait and see what's going to happen in terms of the politics and the Numbers they are but certainly feels much more consistent with trying to do I wonder if Frankie that one of the other reasons it is taking a long time for regulation to to catch up.

This is lobbying and you know I certainly know that the more powerful work with a company the more time of money.

They spend a lobby can you?

Able to characterize extent to which for instance even now today representatives of Facebook and Google I love being the CMA just making their arguments heard in there are two ways large companies so this companies by large companies interact with regulators one is legal fighting litigation specific cases in our sleep the bigger you are you have deep pockets and whenever we try to do an investigation you have when you know yours on the other side you take a decision at those companies then you get litigation and that happens extensively in order measure restrictions to us is particularly teachers and over lunch is more with the parliaments and politicians of government rather than without as I meant to be we have friendly relationships with all the market participants because we need to understand the issues.

So many ways are constructive interactions with all these platforms by the same time you know if we do something very weird.

We know we're going to get it, but that's not really different from the way British Telecom saw Centrica have historically dealt with as regulators in the in the UK let's talk this means in practice the last week people around the world watched on in astonishment as Facebook block news pages in Australia at those users could me the view or share the pages of things accidentally Harold the Guardian York Times Wall Street Journal or local or international news organisation that as we speak this has been reversed Facebook and Australia have come to a kind of small little happened in it because the Australian government proposed legislation that would in Effect 4 space book another to pay for news content handling.

When did you first find out the Facebook pulled all their news pages Australia what's your reaction?

Turn off a number of the problems that myself and others think are there in the sunset you can need I think Monopoly like power to feel confident that you can take this approach because first of all you know is important to bear in mind.

This is a democratically elected Parliament following due process and trying to introduce specific legislation, so if you want to meet the bar for a company to decide to go against them across collect the Parliament in this way is pre-high and suddenly you know I would be worried something like this happened in the UK second.

I think you need to feel pretty confident that your customers cannot have nowhere else to go because in essence that was a backlash enough you can assume the number of people feel very strongly about it.

You know the reality is there are ecosystems today on Facebook or Instagram they have such that.

Difficult individually to switch away because all of your friends and family are there and unilaterally is very difficult to see well.

You know I'm so unhappy action that I'm going to take us a standard do something different so for me.

It's a signal that it's even more urgent what we are saying that we need to deal with this economic because in many ways.

I think this is now is indicative of the degree of political whatever comes with you gonna make power you say the British be worried if the same thing happened here should Britain it should it's legislators follow Australia's example for the last couple of years.

There was a pain Cross review in this type of matter and we are some advice of said that this part to the is going to call the contact is regulatory proposals.

We think should also think about Fair Trading between publishers and the platforms for

News content so I know both government and Parliament interested.

What's happening in Australia potentially thinking about something similar now there are many variants over are so sorry.

I think a number of people are following it without of Interest here platforms.

Send publishers traffic.

They also donate to join them through chat with it, but would it be good if technology platforms page publishers much more competition argument.

Obviously there is much more about you know high-quality journalism democracy.

I think some of the things you know which dinosaur was the last 12-months globally have given us pause for thought I mean I think a number of governments and parliaments in major of democracies are struggling with this question which is that the business model for high quality independent journalism has been struggling for numbers early years and this is Morrisons in originals.

End number people argue that the bargaining power of the platforms is extremely strong against publishers and is created and released so I personally in favour of mechanisms that try to think about what is the right balance It's Complicated I think they're Australian approach is a sensible one or just try to the company's into proper commercial negotiations with the backstop or possible intervention by regulator.

That's one way of doing it as you probably know the French I was dealing with different way because they're using the copyright directive so I think your number people struggling with the same problem trying to come up with slightly different Solutions and in my view is very much that the platforms need to be part of the discussion and this type of approach is kind of hardboard approach is clearly not helpful and symptomatic of wider problems.

Really because this is very complex a lot.

We don't spend everyday think about these issues.

I won't listen to it.

You say that the Australian approach.

You said he's sensible you just explain why what is it about the Australian approach that you think you sent well, it's trying basically to create a backstop of mediation and arbitration if the commercial negotiations fail.

So it's very much trying to convince the platforms and the publishers to trying to find can a win-win agreements where there is a fair exchange of money for what is exchange between the two but with the backstop.

If one of the two sides is unreasonable in the weather process the problem ultimately an arbitrator with the side against them and so that's away.

I think of thinking about the problem is very much in a we don't want to regulate this we don't want to be all over it is regulated but as a society we think there is a problem with the current.

Laco playing field between level playing field between the published the small ones and the and the platform supporting the French case is linked to the fact the Google took the view unilaterally that they shouldn't pay at all and a reasonable position so you need to have someone in a position of power.

What is the regulator potential to say what that's not a reasonable approach to the question who judges the judges who decides what's reasonable but I think it's the right Parliament appoint some independent arbitrator essentially has to trust or parliament and government to play the role.

She said the Facebook pulling out in the way of dealing and his behaviour with no symptoms of its Monopoly power Julian Knight the chair that you told the BBC he thought the Facebook move was bullying represents the worst type of corporate culture.

I think I've been there lots of commercial negotiations were people frightened to pull content so for instance in the US as you know sorry to Durban disputes between content providers and cable operators and they were were called Blackout period for a 7.3 and the content provider sell my consent to you for the next month so this happens in terms of commercial negotiation.

I think the problem here is that this is in the context of Parliament trying to deal with problem for Democracy in society and approached the Facebook decided to take was very much a commercial approach, but in many ways can of against at the Collector Parliament which is first Only what a problematic and I'm sure others but this is why people say the problem the question used to be can Facebook's about democracy the question now is can Tamoxifen my Facebook used as you put it there you say that.

Giant organisation is global in nature which is driven by commercial incentives having an argument with an individual sovereign state chapters to be a democracy and totally the power of the commercial imperatives of the giant global corporation Facebook I'm in person.

I'm not worried about the end result of the question is how you get there.

How many seems to me first fundamental principle that we have a corporation whatever their size ultimately play me to do what democratic elected parliaments dictate I mean let's him safari fundamental point in everything I do or you do or many others do so you know where we are historical.

I'm in these companies have become massive and Facebook differently from others also happens to be in a particular business area which is extremely sensitive for democracy so

Yeah, it's are not here.

I don't think Facebook head.

Set out to do an app where they are just think everything just happened, but you know where we are and we need to plot play better place which is more comfortable for all of us to use I'm sure I have done probably be arguing and it's a coherent position at the screen it or not made by the company and I'm going to do this company say think of a car maker cars have radios radio station to choose to transmit via car radios because they derive value from it.

They build an audience and then they can sell advertise it against the audience this new legislation in Australia the equivalent to saying to carmakers.

You could have paid the radio stations because about getting from A to B they might just fine without radios.

So why do Man U widowed my car makers pay radio stations, so why do my take that falls play Rupert Murdoch

What happened because we're dealing with news we're doing with democracy beginning with fake news.

We're dealing with problems with witness for the last few years.

It's a very different example of things happening in terms of commercial negotiation of products that to be honest we are citizens domiciliary care about this is something we care about and so the quality of information in a social ecosystem matters more than whether you're getting classical music through your car rear Facebook and positioning.

Did he is more dominant than any car make its position in the the car market forget the moment we don't think that you're so the government is doing this right and that from timber sleep the creator of the world wide web and Australian senate hearing that he opposed the idea of forcing companies to pay for certain least we could it makes the web unworkable.

What do you think that idea?

I mean look at that his opinion and socialism interesting his opinion.

I just don't don't don't really agree with it.

I think there are number factors that you need to consider you know.

I I think I song from the assumption that the current situation is not a satisfactory one in terms of the sustainability of high-quality sunrise in Compton so I lost the fair approach.

I personally think correct in this space, but wouldn't fundamentally goes with it's Tim Berners-Lee fundamentally change what the weather is maybe that's good thing to change but just do we need to acknowledge it if you start saying this time you link to someone subscription for the weather for the Western where the Californian the weather Balsall the time they're all sorts of payments.

I mean.

I'm not sure this will be such a fundamental change ok.


I need organisation.

Propose Australian legislation benefit smaller these companies, would you think there's an argument that actually this all comes from Rupert Murdoch's immense power in Australia and actually the main beneficiary is rather big newspaper Empire you're hardly know that this relation is gonna to take away from how do we know this kind of new approach would actually benefit the smaller people that you want help understanding is this very much of tense of the legislation of what the government wants to do so hopefully war that's what they want to do.

They want to make sure the whole ecosystem is supported by is always in this market if you are in a stronger position.

You're in a better place than someone else but the legislation is very much about the whole ecosystem is just not about individual companies Australia both privately and publicly for a number of years on at the cutting edge of regulation around the world.

What is it about Australia that means they've been at the forefront of this.

Why have they proved to have such?

a brave voice is actually traditional the they have and they've had the same problems we have had and

to some extent the brexit negotiations.

Have a slow down our Parliament in total thinking about domestic legislation so I think we're slightly behind just because of a band Bollington obviously that's not help but in many ways they have been no concern about diseases and they felt so did you just get on and deal with it so many ways and a lot of the conversation of discussions are really very similar to what's happening here another slightly under the radar last week around Facebook and follow that in this conversation with this deal between River Murders News Corporation and google, who will pay for news content Google readypave use a bit more? What did you make that announcement that deal? I think is always you have commercial negotiation something what we say that in our work by offering a commercial negotiations are in the Shadows overregulation so you're not Google and news corp order.

And obviously they were following what's happening in Australia and that legislation would potentially change the strength of one party or the other so they did a commercial anyways Direction are you think we should be happy with it because that again the purpose of the regulation in Australia and I think purpose of regulations in this country would be very much to to support negotiation rather than have very detailed regulatory Solutions investigation into Google is called it's privacy sandbox Google standing on changing things here with its Chrome browser about what do investigations about and why the Sandbox is join your attention, so it's a complex investigation.

I'm basically Google again.

Think about transitioning the web are thinking about making some changes to increase a privacy for.

Consumers and limit the tracking by third-party of the cookies one all of us gonna go around internet.

Look at that is pages a number of publishers and competitors Google have publicly and privately complained saying this is creating a distortion because I really problematic 4 oz leather sofa Google because quite a lot of the Google information stays within the Google assistant, so what were doing is working very closely with information commissioner's office balancing privacy considerations and competition considerations and Google going to be fair to them there an announcer roadmap.

So they haven't taken decision again what we think we can achieve with investigation is essentially validates whatever road map is is chosen as something which is alright compromise between privacy and

This is going into your undergraduate philosophy days and then who determines where the individual privacy Trump's market competition and the reason I'm teaching you answer that question to go on to talk about quite interesting to Facebook and there is an emerging conversation or an emerging fight for the future of the web which is about how it's going to be and people on one side printers Tim Cook of Apple to the privacy really matters a lot of people and others Mark Zuckerberg Facebook have a commercial centre to say that actually matters is the open web just in that particular instance you mentioned when does what is the nature of if you like the competing claims of individual privacy against fair competition, but I think it's again that type of thing that democratically need to buy some trade-offs and ultimately in Parliament Swedish balancing in.

Put Arms in a we have.

Legislation that we apply the information commissioner's office legislation of privacy they apply so the impractical person was your first thing is for us to work together and trying to work out this trade-off so much has an integrated what we're doing at the moment.


Sorry nice to talk to his cook versus.

It's around the update to the Apple iPhone software she's coming in April Irish 14th spicy argument between Tim Cook where it's about personalised advertising and whether or not a CD iPhones when you use Facebook on that you're going to be your date Rose can allow Facebook and target you Tim Cook an apple of making the argument that actually people really care about privacy know this is the information commissioner's of remit but that has the internet involves privacy is going to be a bigger and bigger can anyone can access your your data is dangerous? Where do you think we are in the evolution of the internet between this kind of open web space and advertising Dominic my Facebook and the Amir

More private web really important and I think that's an area where potentially we are not quite in the right place yet.

I mean when we did the walk-in a one of the things when we look at Google and Facebook so worried as is their reality that people just don't look into it.

You know I don't look into it and I'll look into it and it doesn't seem quite right and the companies that design systems that essentially prevent people from engaging with it in any meaningful way, so they're number of storycorps commercial decision that been taken.

I think we are now is whether we need to push back on that I mean ultimately I think what matters is the outcomes for for you all for me for your listeners in a new one and iPhone which is cheap which is high quality when your privacy protected and

Early I think you want someone to worry about somebody's trade-offs without you really worrying about it because if things are time-consuming and complicated really technical for a moment just on this Google sandbox issue matter the Jolly Ryan use a senior fellow at the Irish council for civil liberties and the colleague is Dr cristina caffarra who you've worked with in the past.

They say that on this issue of the Google privacy, so they say in a reason I ask what is hard to see how the CMA when antitrust agency could use antitrust rules to limit how Google itself uses data.

This is the fundamental problem is there a Free Fallin 1000 companies will be good, but Google's internal free-for-all would continue and they said that you should the tail Google Power using the gdpr regulations from Brussels antitrust regulation is that an investigation so I have to be careful what I say and the reason we are working with information commissioner's office exactly.

Which is that we might and I'm speculating concludes that they are right and in that case they formation commissioner's officer has the power supply the gdpr.

So you know where are very open-minded about the tools to get to what we think is the right right place.

Just looking at NVIDIA and arm a uk-based Cambridge based company.

Could you give us an indication from your preview of what's at stake here because there's an awful lot of conversation in the world about a shortage of chips chips you eat with tomato ketchup at semiconductors and this case that you're looking at goes to the heart of a potential shortage of chips or semiconductors.

Why do the case Matthew size is a big transaction in essentially very important market is not the type of Markets again.

People are particularly familiar with arm.

Is it?

Company has operations in the UK and is being bought by in videos of the very large American player with a customer bar.

I mean what is in the public domain is that the other market participants number the other customers have expressed concerns with this because Ascension in video with an own they all assets of arm.

It is a global France at the moment in a we have an investigation in the UK that is apparently investigation in Washington as apparently investigation in Brussels is centred on the same and so we were going to talk to others and see whether ultimately this is a good transaction for consumers are not and what you looking at as consumers would benefit from greater competition.

It's not top of your inbox to think about whether there is going to be this global shortage of foreign semiconductors, which affects car manufacturers and so we need to worry about the medium term sustainability.

So we might look into decisions, but if it's just a short-term issue likely to be really Central to our investigation very Amazon delivery the big picture so back in 2019 the competition markets authority concerned about Amazon's plans to invest in deliveroo the food delivery service Amazon and wanted by 16% stake just over a year ago you talked about an in-depth investigation, but there last year you dropped it the same age Concern why it was a proper investigation.

We were worried about obviously the road at Amazon could play with delivery and the fact that there was a big real convergence between obviously deliveroo as we now know expand morning to grocery deliveries.


I actually coming to the market as well.

I mean ultimately we concluded that particular because of the size of the steak Amazon was really.

Opposition to materially change the weather never were doing things are Amazon having sent it to do things and so we cleared it.

So it's very much on the marriage our assessment was that this particular steak will not be a problem if you go back to the big picture when you're doing your PhD at Stanford things just to say that send the company's mission our trillion-dollar companies are approaching 2 trillion-dollar companies were they didn't know where the most powerful wealthy companies in human history have a quite extraordinary power they tend to be California they certainly west coast and as you said it's very limited competition.

You've talked about how the network effects of data about Google Facebook apple a very good iPhones

Explain how it can be that regulators like you can intervene that in a way that gives smaller firms water companies a chance to be better rivals how regulators stop these big 506 companies running the world in Effect 2 history when a we had very powerful man in a number of countries over time and all the time for legislation and activity by regulators this monopolies were broken up or regulated to end up in a better place in IBM AT&T Standard Oil British Telecom's in a we had a history of companies in the US in this country incredibly powerful and you know the Solutions were applied by democratically elected Parliament I don't directly or two regulators to curtail their power and generate innovation if you think about you know I be.

We have a lot of this company's now because IBM was regulated broken up but things happen to it.

Otherwise my CV in a world where IBM engineer the side something is launched or not which clearly was not a great place to be in a we know that when I put it is don't deliver for consumers.

We know that with that that's a fact and so I think we need whenever we see powerful monopolies.

We need to deal with it.

It takes time it's complicated with done it in the past.

There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to do it now.

That is actually feasible you said that in 10-15 years from now.

There will be a British company which is a giant in display advertising that could rival Google Facebook British but I think we say hope that Intel 15 years time that would be arrivals to Facebook in social media and I think again as well that company is the German

Company or American company, we don't worry too much.

What is important? Is that we create competition to some of these platforms in somebody's call Marcus weather bottlenecks today? What is it about California what is it about the water there? What is it about? What goes on in the area of Palo Alto with you? Spent interesting years were reported from have we got to a place where these companies that together a bigger than most of the rest of the US stock market area around anything if you're not there done lots of things writing up a lot of marriage based hiring of Talents very much bringing in global Talent everywhere that is flat organisation structures very strong little shapes amazing weather and quality of life.

That's not just coming from Palma

You don't need to answer that who do you look to for inspiration that Teddy Roosevelt who do you wake up that person is don't make markets more competitive successful successful regulators in history of people.

What I don't know I was recently reading Obama's book which I thought was very interesting and inspiring a Promise Land I mean I think if you want if you're in public service in government you read a book like that then you just a sense of the intelligence the Fockers the the Currys ma and just how difficult it is for the fact that you know if they're going for for 8-years many wild obviously successful period at the same time.

I think it's very open about things he didn't manage to do 1 challenges and partial defeats The I found it quite inspiring about the cost of his family which was a success look like for you.


I think it's so it's impact so it's really about consumers and businesses in the UK seeing a difference in rewari.

Distances for instance are so worried about the power of the platforms.

You know people working really hard day in and day out and if they suddenly go from first page on Google search 250 delusional 70% of the revenues and if you're running in a bed and breakfast in Cornwall that happens to your living outside coffee then all the other problems so he not a good place to be in so we have a warning when there's more protection in your people are actually able to build their businesses and feel that somebody's things can happen to them some local newspapers in Britain are depending on the largest and charitable donations of companies in California who never heard of the areas that are serving and similarly if there people listening or watching right now who do under bed and breakfast in it's intriguing state of affairs that a respectable The Economist from Palma is the person that could help.

Grow their business, but is that what you hope to be absolutely I think it is to be able to public service for period in a context very nice things work well, and you're able to do something but I think it's important to bear in mind that is it record your try to make torches some up everything helps.

I think I'm quite problematic in that and you know by the time you leave when I leave a good institution and you hope someone will keep doing what you're doing great.

Thank you very much indeed for torches.

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