Read this: How to earn a living on social media

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hi, I'm Julie America and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4.

Hello, are you find a position to make some money out of social media the big-name companies do very nicely.

Thank you.

I thought you posted and what you share, but have the tables turned in favour of the individual.

Can we make cash without latest musical composition or the recipe we lovingly demonstrate if we're a little bit smarter about it or websites like patreon offer fans the ability to pay their artists and writers directly tiktok and Facebook of started offering cash to the most popular creators.

So is there money to be made in The Creator economy how what are the big beasts Facebook tiktok YouTube about the competition and who is moderating all of this online won't let me introduce you to my guests Sam is the co-founder and

Technical officer of patreon in a few sentences Sam gives a flavour of what patreon actually is and what it does.

Thanks Julian page 114 creators get paid sort of an ongoing sustainable way through their Communion in return the really gives access to exclusive content access to the creators in a safe environment community will expand on that in the next 25 minutes or so Becky Flint is a YouTube influencer and founder of Peppa studio that social media marketing agency.

You Becky spot the next big YouTube or tiktok Star on polished is better almost we're looking for things are relatable and almost kind of water tameable than the typical celebrity.

I think that's a secret crystal Walker has written books.

You better now TiK ToK as well.

I wonder with tiktok in mind Chris to what extent is it being the year of TiK ToK 2021 because it seems to have come out of of nowhere has nobody can be a beneficiary of the Julian tiktok has been perhaps someone that survived little bit better in March 2020 alone we spent as much time on the app as we did from the Stone Age due today so that gives you an indication of just how will creator is an addicted to them as that's quite a sister and Kaya area covers the creative economy for the information including a weekly newsletter before that she covered tech CNN tyre we're going to hear the words creator and influencer.

I suspect quite a lot in the next 25 minutes.

What's the difference? This is some people for me.

I really think that's what I think of you years ago.

We would have said you know an Instagram influencer and YouTube creator.

I think creator has had become the more preferred word now.

I don't think there's a difference between someone who has the following online contact with you for a moment on the status Quo so we might be changing from so safe for sake of argument somebody has an Instagram following of 100000 people how is she or he make money based on those 100000 at the moment the most common way by far is sponsored content so that's promoting a product in an Instagram post or that's by far the most popular way people make money by creators are really branched out there.

You know teacher online courses.

They're selling podcast.

They're selling merchandise, so there's a lot more ways to monetize contact number one by Status Quo at least until fairly recently wasn't necessarily going to make you a huge amount of money was it?

Have a small niche following that they can really convert into buying things they can make money depends on the Creator Chris let me bring you in on the others involved Google's YouTube talk if you're on either of those and again you're creating your influence singlets interchange the words again.

How much money are you potentially making so there was a study done in 2016 several million YouTube channels that found that basically from advertising revenue alone.

So that is the the adverts that you see before during the videos that you watch on YouTube for instance 96.5% of people there did not get over the US dollar teeline.

They did not make enough money to even earn a living off that but as Kaya said there's lots of other ways that you can there is this content in you have the opportunity also to do collaborations offline events.

We're seeing people selling out Arenas for boxing events of the back of their online info.

Community so many different places and YouTube and tiktok of course also starting now to directly monetize people but that 96.5% figure that's quite telling isn't it? If you think this is a really broadly ranging subject and the house you have an awful lot of money and then there are the have-nots you are most of us when it comes to The Creator space and think that tiktok in particular or trying to develop a new way of doing this where they trying monitise as many people as they can buy give him a little bit but they're always different platforms not including but not least patreon as well who you're going to offering other alternatives spreading out your eggs and many many baskets Becky let let let me talk to you about when you were a YouTube influencer as a teenager under the name beckii cruel.

I think and you did a lot of material which was watched and widely followed particularly in Japan

He's a clip of some of it this so how much money would you make out of that at the time roughly what happened was I started YouTube before adsense even existing so the intentions behind creating content back.

Then were very different.

We weren't going onto YouTube and seeing people with these massive mansions on £1000000 houses in causing everything we're just going onto YouTube to to create a part of the community, but you couldn't rely on it for a steady income presumably hours at school, so I still have my parents supporting me but even though I was making my YouTube videos and my case is a bit different because the constant I was making wasn't fully monetizable it contain.

Music Factory I don't own the rights to I can make the money off it so I had to look elsewhere in terms of you know as we talked about diversifying your income streams with regards to social media so much and dies patreon and other kind of things like that so going back to you if the majority of people are not making much if any money out of this at least at the moment.

How do the social media companies make money out of what people are posting will they make money out of our attention? We are engaged with all of these created you find the really interesting and like to Delve into their lives.

I used to watch Becky when I was younger and from that basically they have our attention.

So they serve adverts against added many you can buy an advert on YouTube that cost North London money you can buy an advert on tiktok that will be slotted into the feed of videos that you see and those things cost an awful on a man.

Buy for businesses and the money that they make from that is basically plowed into profits for the platform YouTube makes billions of dollars in advertising revenue every single year off-the-shoulder centrally pre-labour of millions of people has been said he's unpaid labour.

Isn't it? By those who are posting stuff it is but then there is the opportunity why do people want to become a celebrity's Julian is crashing.

I think that it's because there is always this minute 0.01% or 3.5% I suppose chance of actually making it big and striking it rich and getting those billion-dollar Mansions that Becky was talking about I don't know you're asking the right person about the celebrity idea but but I see where you're going Sam I wanted to come to you about catering a bit more detail now because that is to an extent meant to change at least some of it as I understand it you launched it back in 2013 with a university friend called Jack can't it was a musician.

But was only earning tiny sums on YouTube is that how the idea began to try and do something differently here is a Creda door, but I had studied 15 years of classical piano my my college essay was about my mum chopped up on my middle finger in the door hinge but I continued studying but I didn't decide to do music as my career because at that time certainly you had to be the absolute best evening sister or possible pass this was your life and I think nowadays what's fastening with the internet.

Is that you can connect with some pockets of Communities directly with your fans can get monetized.

We talk about how you know the majority of folks even in the YouTube study early making a living but what was seeing now is that there is absolutely a change in behaviour understanding that consumers are willing to pay off.

Marta that they care about them because they particularly care about specific creators and so that's why it's called the create economy vs.

What you have with the gig economy.

It's not commoditized the specific created that where about is the one that you're willing to support and your platform.

It's not just musicians.

It is expected in humans of New York the sun documents the plight of everyday humans we have inventors as it's all kinds of folks who are able to connect with the money side of it work then.

How do the payments work if if I put something on your platform who is playing what to whom yet again? It's the Direct connection that you have with your friends, are they want to support but you as a creator and they want to get access to the exclusive content that you're making right.

So people who want to know more about about you because they

One thing that you put on your platform and like it.

They will invest if you like and hope that is a result of doing so they will hear more absolutely I would like what's happening in the whole ecosystem is there's been easier access to creation in the democratization of creation so like you look at tiktok.

It's so easy now to create any pizza content and everyone has the chance to make a barrel in so that's become more more true as these tools become more dancing with access to it.

So effectively and then book studies other creator store and find that supporting them Aladdin to get deeper into this track and within that model is there a monthly subscription option for those who want to go down that road.

Play about sustainable funding so most of the funding options that we look to provide for creators alas for like a stable sustainable monthly recurring revenue ok, so they know what they're going to get each month and

Obviously, you're taking a cut out of that otherwise you're not going to be able to run it.

Yeah.

We take out of the news that comes to compared to many other platforms.

I would say are substantially smaller.

Can you put a figure on what you take depending on the options of what you're looking for so2r platform patreon is anywhere from 5 to 80% usually in addition to that.

Are you offering other attractions to those who are coming onto your platform? Is there that sponsorship? Is there Mark those kinds of things that that might be a further attraction for them with the keepers on nothing here is exclusive you can take in all these other monetization opportunities even as your building up in membership or sustainable revenue stream on our platform.

Numbers do you know how many patrons are at the moment we have over 8 million a patient as I think recently her last month when I last checked we are also over 200000 is that get paid every single month right now right tyre how big an impact.

Do you think patreon is having had already had I think it works for certain people I spoke with the Creator recently who makes 80% of income from Youtube channel memberships and patreon channel memberships and she said that really works for her because she doesn't want to just push content other people have talked to you have said that they don't want to take any money for the audience and I like the Admiral so I think it really depends on some Hannah but if you're might be regarded as a traditional outlet a newspaper a broadcaster.

How do you see the arrival of?

A concept like this is this is this something to be wary of is this something to try and work alongside have an hour independent.

They have really big Twitter followers and loyal audiences and they're going off on their own and 20 subs tax so I think that's that's something to to watch for don't know that patreon is necessarily you know it's raptor.

What are the social media company so we've seen launches of quote content creator funds bye-bye Facebook by TiK ToK is that what they're trying to deal with now.

There's anything we need to do something different here.

Yeah.

I think that's the best tiktok is totally up and down and The Creator so easy for the average person to go by Roland corner big audience and I think.

Realising that drive a lot of Engagement and trans and it's not enough anymore.

Just give them a place to grow an audience.

They need to offer them that are features and ways to make money and YouTube what used to be the only game in town.

There was in a way that directly from social media networks and told the last yourself so you will not forget what I was saying about tiktok pick up on the point.

She was making there is a study by .6 billion pieces of the content generated and so everyone to Christmas point to aspiring for your attention.

I think what's fascinating across all these are as crazy as a building their followers which is really important to them.

They don't necessarily own access to these Communities that they've got up and so even when you make a post on Instagram on tiktok.

You're not by your friends.

You don't have access to the email addresses in so that's why you see a lot of creative trying to spread across multiple platforms get access to audience members to a different means in particular.

We want to provide you the email.

Set alarm for 10-minutes building his membership.

They tried to have a phone with a can actually get access into each other to everyone and they want to down the road Becky what do you make these new developments? I mean is the Echo what's I just said? I think there's a really growing trend of creators who are trying to kind of almost regain the connection between themselves and their audiences without the top on because at the end of the day.

It's really hard to trust the the platforms.

You know changes have been made every single day to the algorithms our content is being so you are audiences and is often done in a very hard to read a black box algorithmic way which is hard to decipher the code and you can offer the second and what you're doing.

I'm doing something wrong by my very very well anymore.

I'm making a mental health as well, so I think you know opportunities for creative 2.

Regain that connection with the audience in a more direct way is something that's going to be really beneficial going forwards making money via social media course for every well intentioned musician.

There is someone perhaps with slightly darker Motives I've been speaking to Cafe patter.

Who's a reporter from the BBC drama programme he's been investigating a new kind of criminal the fraud influencer for them for one says someone who has a large following but the differences the engage consent the person out there is fraud the promoting this glamorous criminal lifestyle and sometimes even using social media to sell criminal services for children services that you looked into an influencer called tanks.

How many followers does he have online and one of those followers seeing he has.

Over 150000 followers cross different platforms tiktok Instagram Snapchat Twitter and he posted these don't like video standard life of Tanks Daily Echo clickers of slang word for Ford and you can see him glamorizing Ford he's waving around large amount of cash Wheeldon multiple bank cards on Instagram per say he's manuals methods ecosystem, and how you can commit fraud and you bought some of these manuals these guides to have a look at what was on offer.

So, what did you find but I can't go to watch detail because we don't want to teach me Boscombe it for that it came in the form of cloud storage link and you'll find various step-by-step guide on how to exploit weaknesses in systems of online retailers the banks does a garden house you defraud the government universal credit scheme.

Provided you with links to websites where you can go and buy people stolen personal information Known As Falls we can hear a little bit from your Panorama now, my tanks.

I'm alone come on.

I see you at 1 you and that's an abandoned pirates whippet.

He's just true identity hidden rapping and bragging about fraud on social media time to time he even post a bit of life advice.

It is a hostel now Hafiz fraud influences their use a whole array of different social media platforms.

So what did those platforms say when you told them about tanks got to look at my left because we contacted quite a few social media platforms we contact.

Talk Twitter Instagram Facebook Snapchat YouTube they all said they going to laugh or contents on the other platforms and in relation to tanks person is can somebody back to platform sparring Twitter and YouTube they've been taken down.

Let's get into the nuts and bolts of your investigation to an extent because there was some good old fashion journalism going on here.

How did first come across these fraud influences well, I'm quite young like a lot of young people.

I think I've got a few years advantage on me.

I hope so, I spend a lot of time on social media.

I just scrolling through Instagram and Snapchat and I have noticed in the Ford poster popping up on my feet and turns out.

I'm not the only one because as part of this investigation.

I went to my old school to speak some 16-17 year olds they said they were.

People glamorising Ford people selling methods on how you can commit fraud so that's how I can cross it and it turns out.

I'm not there Leon person.

He's seeing this kind of an in the documentary.

We see you exchanging messages even phone calls with some of the floors does did that mean using a burner phones fake social media profiles to make sure that you were protecting yourself in there a time 204 walking around with the several burner phones with burner SIM cards in them.

I had multiple sock puppet identities online and a profile before Thursday remain anonymous, so we were doing the same thing to protect ourselves in the programme you track down the person who you believe their tanks and his own social media posts at to an extent but he's down for what did you spot there the lead you in his Direction so that's the problem for these four.

Because possibly influence amines share your life online and tanks shared a bit too much online do a little clues and his videos which help distract them down.

What is one video Davies Glen service car number plates wish we were able to search official records and identify as a grey Vauxhall Corsa another video showed her distinctive patterned carpets which we linked to student accommodation block and Wembley the next step for us to go starts doing accommodation block wait for the Vauxhall Corsa to arrive and take the pictures of Tanks sounds of the surname does an old eBay account called BR tanks and when you look at the cell information you can see the real name of the eBay seller Luke Joseph that name appears once again in an apple music track copyrighted to Joseph but it's taxis singing all of these clues put together makes us believe the tanks.

Students from London by the name of new Joseph all those please together.

What did you then do the results of the investigation are police for example pursuing some of these flooding from the police? I'm not too sure what you're doing, but that's definitely want them speaking to me earlier.

Panorama hunting the social video fraudsters available now on BBC iPlayer online harms a big issue at the moment.

There's the food we just heard about implications in the shooting in Plymouth in the last week or so about radicalisation online.

What are the social media companies doing about this just now focused on content moderation and this is a perennial problem for as long as their social media platforms.

There has been issues of either inappropriate content or radicalisation through content consumption and YouTube tiktok Instagram

Twitter all of the above use a combination of Eva computer technology artificial intelligence which basically comes through what you saying what you write to try and find out inappropriate words of things like that and try to take them down and also human moderators.

This is the human side of social media as we pay an awful.

Lot of poorly contracted poorly paid work to try and deal with some of the messages that we have on social media and they have limited success in taking down some this content and that's just simply because there is a torrent of it.

This is a massive fire hose full of information and posted every single day.

It is difficult to keep on track allo Germans like us off and try and keep him a little bit more honest and they are Sam how does patreon tackle this particular issue.

Yeah, it's interesting Chris mentioning the human moderation.

We actually do want to take a very human saw all of this we don't want to be necessarily the the others of what are is there isn't.

We believe in the diversity of opinions, but as I lead you know insert explaining what patron was at the very beginning we also when I Foster safe Communities and so I think for us there certain types of behaviours that initially when you're talking about Friday with committing fraud against your community sometimes you know time and the pay you and order to get like financial independence or something like that, but particularly there is certain things around hate speech or around a bullying daxing where you expose someone's address that are just lines that you know do not support any sort of safe community.

Can you take an action in those circumstances already when that has Arisen yeah, absolutely again ft.

Intense is bad Daniel then.

I just wanted as you get bigger.

You recognise presumably that editorial role might get bigger alongside what you have absolutely.

You know our platform is a little different in the case of what you look at YouTube Tik toks with the really such a delusion contact coming in every day.

We are dealing with the critters that are getting paid until they have a smaller subset of contact but yes absolutely Becky I know you recently gave evidence to a select committee enquiry at Westminster about this about influences.

What are they want to know from you? I mean if it's great the the government is kind of taking more interest in in influence and social media and general and this is an enquiry into influence of culture and they wanted to investigate the can affect the power of influences on social media.

How does influencer culture operate and also Christie about regulation in particular with advertising? It's been kind of a few occasions over the past you know 10 years marketing and advertising and social media has emerged that we've had a few residence as well.

This is the greatest thing that I can take all of this is the internet.

So quickly, but the rules haven't really been written yet.

You know where to catch up game where everything has to happen before we then decide.

How do we want to regulate to enforce it and so these conversations being have in Parliament at the moment.

Hopefully going to give us a little bit more concrete Direction into how we can make Internet safer and and everybody well.

That is all we have time for today.

So thank you very much to all of my guess you taking part in the media show samyang co-founder of patreon.

Thank you the effort reporter at the information Becky Flint YouTube influencer and founder of Peppa studio Chris stokel-walker author of TiK ToK boom China's dynamite happened the super race for social media and earlier we heard from cafe pattern reporter from Panorama the media show back at the same time next week is so thank you very much for listening and goodbye.