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Read this: #159 - C4 4 The Chopping Block? UK TV IN EU; Sony Buys Somethin Else

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#159 - C4 4 The Chopping Block? UK TV IN…



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Hello, this is the media show on BBC Radio no, sorry hello and welcome to the media podcast.

I'm only man this week as the government Ponders selling Channel 4 so is the case and be strong and now that it was 5 years ago one of the earliest radio indie something else is bought by Sony music entertainment so is this the start of a UK podcast Gold Rush plus the EU flexes its regulatory muscles we reflect on the shaking first fortnight of GB news and in the media quiz we do the math.

It's all coming up in this edition of the podcast.

Jake kanter hello Jake explain what you do have to go through a bit of linguistic bassix to try and get the message across as to what channel actually is to our American audience, but I think and it's important that they do because it's it's a very valuable and there may well be some buyers in America who would be interested in said acid ok? We'll talk about that in just a second but just briefly I mean if they understand the detail do they nonetheless think of it as a slightly Parochial story but everyone in Britain get their knickers in a twist about because it is more for the kind of stations that Discovery it is it's definitely is valued at about a billion billion pounds which is what 1.51.

In a market where you've got huge mm like Amazon taking over mdm4 8 billion odds this is this is alright.

Ok? What is that in just a second we just in the menu bants at the moment.

So let me introduce back to the show as well Christina Moore founder of don't skip media and Christine I just got on the board of governors at the podcast Academy forgive me.

I didn't know that was a thing what is the podcast Academy and should I join yes you should join definitely the podcast Academy is where we want to reward train mentor individuals within the podcast community so it's not about representing the company's at all.

You know the Spotify isn't there was the world.

It's about representing individuals and rewarding them for their hard work training and mentorship in podcasting an interesting one.

Isn't it? Because you know if you reach out to your favourite.

And uses them look, can I come and watch recorder? Can I help you do some research or can you tell me how to get my show on at work? I reckon you know one in three times probably they're just going to write back and thanks very much.

Yes, what do you need an organisation for also has its Award ceremony? So it's not just about the training and the mental wash it is about providing recognition to all producers across the industry also with the training and mentorship the little bit more organised and just sending out an email and fingers crossed hoping for the with a training.

There's going to be a Philips lot of it is online right now and also with the mental ship programs are kind of gold markers or goalpost that you were in order to achieve some of your goals and Vision Street nice ok, well talking of podcasting Dreams alongside.

You today is the writer podcast and audio critic Caroline

A very sell hello Caroline welcome back to the show as well the British podcast Awards are imminent.

I'm curious whether you have any hot tips for that my favourites that you'd like to see where I have to admit.

There are a lot of shows on there this year that are completely new to me which I think is only a good thing we like the first year of the Awards around I could have you know texted half the people on the short list as personal friends and that's no longer the case which is speaks well of the breadth and depth of the of the entries there a couple of my favourite shows on the list and Folk on foot is nominated for best lockdown podcast that's a no where they interview folk musician on a walk and then and Davey nose pores to play instruments and it's all very atmospheric and then a rambler by get them to buy folk instruments.

Which is deeply random, but extremely beautiful where people just send in these lovely soundscapes that they make all over the world, so you might get you know the sound of Bogota and then the sound of somebody's cat in Moscow and you stay at different 1-hour tip for your podcast Academy there Christina if you want to be recognised by Caroline in one of the columns recorder show Outdoors you can see the theme of the last year with the story of the week and he is the government opening another consultation 1/5 by my count to look at privatising Channel 4 back in 2016.

What has changed since then? It's not a media abundantly clear.

I have to say I mean the government argues that have been substantial shifting Sands in the industry and by that they mean that.

Trio streaming services has fundamentally changed the game and Channel 4 model which is 90% at funded is not going to be sustainable in the long term the official on the record rationale for them revisiting.

It's all a bit murky to me to sources close to for that.

They are speculating that channel 4 is a victim of the culture walls government is keen to show that it is cracking down on the perceived liberal values, which Channel 4 upholds which is a state of affairs Caroline I mean you can understand obviously Boris Johnson spin Doctors you're not going to like Channel 4 News very much I get that but the one thing support of an independent news in the public service.

Does that kind of thing makes you look good if they're criticising you know free and fair and all of that and secondly I mean Channel 4 News actually is it ori success story isn't it was created by the Thatcher government IT support hundreds of small businesses up down the country? Why do they want to look like I got it in for them? I was truly surprised when I saw this news came up because yes as you say started by Thatcher government and great successful was of small to medium-sized Enterprise and also channels also taking part in the so-called leveling up agenda.

You know they're moving jobs, London to places like leaves in Bristol and so very much on contract with what the government is pushing Media organisations to do so you are forced to think about is it because they put a melting ice sculpture Boris Johnson on television during the last election is it really that Petty you can afford to think that maybe it is or possibly even is it Oliver dowden wanting to make a name for himself in this kind of Culture Wars zone?

Maybe he's not really want to privatise Channel 4 at all and we know that John listen tales wanted to do it for a long time Caroline but maybe Oliver dowden isn't actually it is just a case of like well float it and then I can be the cause of try to do something and take on the Liberal work agenda.

Maybe just having the consultation council's taking an action that gives you a good easy win video clip to put on Twitter or maybe it is a simple as that I'm Christina a lot of Dubai Channel 4 about how it is the place where so many TV Indies will get their big break ready their first show all their first major condition comes from Channel 4.

You're a small business working primarily in audio, but can you explain why that break is important whatever platform it's extremely important to independence in the country because there is a mandate that that the Channel 4 have two kind of support.

They have to be behind and wants to privatise that the you take that Monday

Right because what private company or is going to want to acquire someone like Channel 4 with all those restrictions in place so I think that it's really important to independent is that channel 4 remains a public company also were saying as an independent company making a show for Channel 4 vs.

Almost every other commissioner you get to keep more of the intellect that's got to be appealing to indeed as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean if you're really good at negotiating on your own behalf then you try and holder holder to as much as of your own IP as possible, but the official in this instance where you can essentially ladder in your that's a great way of retaining more more ptonomy have an indie.

What are we just handle heads on the question of who might buy Channel 4 because you know Christina

If you don't dilute the remit then the buyers will be limited, let's say that actually the government do conclude that yes, they do want to sell it cos it's worth a billion pounds to the economy, but that they understand that the remit needs to remain in place.

So they're not going to delete it would anyone buy it well, I think it already can see the ground on the remit being diluted suggestion in a press release that channel 4 could move into production for example which it doesn't do for obvious reasons.

It's there to serve the Independent production sector so having an in-house production on which undercut I mean I can afford a piece of work on this in 2015 16 SS the market and looked at him.

I buy it back then the names of the came up with were BT we're not going to have a now because he is actually disposing of this television.

I'm currently at the moment.

There's a cell process going on as we speak and two other players viacomcbs, which owns Channel 5.

And a Discovery which is currently merging with Warner Warner Brothers in in America so it's got pretty big so if the answer to protecting a uniquely British accessory is flogging it to the Americans and I'm not entirely sure I think that's very current at all particularly.

I mean there are other options on the table.

They could float it.

They could do an IPA ITV or Channel 5 or BBC worldwide things that talks about last time that has been suggested that they could they could merge it with another British Public Sector broadcasting public service broadcaster.

Sorry and the other thing is is fine a private back a private equity company the other thing to be fair that would happen Caroline potentially if an investor even if they are.

Is there would suddenly be potentially a lot more money to commission programmes with because they wouldn't be reliant on add money and the sales.

They make worldwide sales at all for it separate.

They were actually just have a battle with deep pockets which they don't have at the moment.

I ask Alex May on about that the other day and she sort of said well.

I don't know I'm not aware of any Michael's with big pockets who are looking around and you can understand that maybe worry that wouldn't last very long but in fairness the government.

It's potentially possible isn't it was on will come along and say here is 300 million to 12-in best in your channel.

That would be good for the British independence.

Exit theoretically yes with any sort of Media acquisition is always the idea of the benevolent billionaire who just wants to see great programs made or great articles written or whatever so yes absolutely possible history tells us not likely though, I think.

Staying with the politics the EU have announced a review into British TV Productions being defined as European works.

Why yeah I mean this is not quite as important as defending but potentially millions of pounds are at stake here.

I think the issue is that basically UK television and film would be Declassified as European works which means that well in simple terms TV TV companies and streamers must show certain quotas of European content and British content with no longer qualify on today's crisis which means that you could see less of the kind of exports that you're a lot of shows like Midsomer Murders Downton Abbey

Small things like the Crown and sex education on Netflix friends like to protect European Productions when you're selling new content into the market and if suddenly the UK British content doesn't qualify then it suddenly becomes less attractive.

I mean that there's arguments from packs from John McVeigh that this is very short-sighted and protectionist, but ultimately there is absolutely sod all we can do about it if if if the if the if the eu member states decide that this is what they want to do.

We have no saying that because we have left the European Union Christina in a way intellectually for them to say this Defence of a European quota was actually.

Long are European Union quota European culture is defined by whether or not you're in the EU I mean that could be considered a threat to any country that thinking of leaving the EU in the future, and it is still in the continent and we do share a common culture is a bit old maybe that's been done on purpose baby is a bit of a threat just a very subtle to it.

That's what happens if you leave the EU I mean when we voted and the Royal we when we voted to leave the EU we had no idea what they're results or what the outcomes were going to be and now the EU is in a position to say you go here are the outcomes and I think that that's they are kind of flexing a little bit.

I think they're flexi do you think UK companies in lobby to somehow be included I mean you know jokes as they say we can do about it, but as an individual company if you owned a big IP like Downton Abbey can you can you push individual countries regulate?

I don't know that they can I think I think I think this is a load of EU level regulated decision, isn't it? That's that's the quota and therefore you know if whoever the front page of German Netflix wants to put Downton Abbey on the front of it whatever I'm not sure that they necessarily can overall that decision and yeah, it does seem truly bizarre.

Especially it is demonstrable interest in countries in European countries in these programs.

He would have thought just trying to serve you as what they want would be the priority rather than creating a kind of ideal political system on your screen.

That's where this battle is one.

I think is the sort of symbolic argument that you're depriving audiences of content that they love but are you I mean you know what does an example they disappear but it said that's not the hold on if they're just not part of the quota and say you're talking about then the 70% of other stuff which doesn't have to be from Europe something like me.

Where does if it's popular is going to be purchased as part of the other 70% Isn't it? Just the same as All-American content as good as up on our TV screens because it's cheaper than making your own stuff and is popular.

I mean you know the high quality British stuff.

Will cos it's good.

Yeah.

I think that's true is not going to evacuate The Market completely but like I said earlier.

There's there is potentially going to be less appetite for the new that is not a good thing for UK production.

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Let's talk about the audio world now big story there last week was that content company something else long-standing friend of the show Steve Ackerman has been acquired by Sony music entertainment a Carolina had a stake in it didn't go for a little over a year.

I think but now they're going to own the whole thing what does something else make and why do Sony wanted there a very long standing a production company in the UK they moved into podcasting in the last 4 years some of the biggest shows in.

Things like David Tennant makes a podcast and some of the short form shows like the recent documentary series on maxwells called the power they've worked in lots of different genres debating impressive stuff and this joint venture with Sony music entertainment.

I believe began in February 2020 although it seems a lot longer now giving everything that happened since moved into a full acquisition and I think the acquisition is probably the kind of maca two things one that the joint venture went really well that Sony was really happy with what they did with the money and which tells you something about the way you do markets going and then secondly just that consolidation is the name of the game in podcasting right now.

We've already seen happening in the US a couple of years and it seems like now.

It's going international interesting Christina but we're in the world now when I asked Caroline Crampton why have Sony bought something else that the answer is no because they make David

I mean, I'm sure his right, but something else is a radio indeed with a huge history and prestige you know it compared to other radio Indies in this country that been going for decades.

They make the kitchen cabinet play gardeners' Question Time and yet probably Sony out that interested in picking those bluechip shows the Radio 4.

They literally one David Tennant podcast that has changed hasn't that case we done 3 years exist 3 years ago as well during the pandemic with a lot of moving towards podcast and audience is moving towards podcast to consume their that information and their content so there's been a massive shift in the last 3-years 18 months.

I think that is positive overall.

So what it displays is that there's a lot of food?

Inspector now, so people are large companies like saying you're like ok.

This is doing well enough for us to put our money behind it and and I do know and I understand some of the I guess the concerns that solo podcasters and even Indies have behind these acquisitions rights of a feel like with more money behind companies like something else.

They can behave more aggressively they can compete on a landscape Indies at myself and I solo podcasts just cannot compete with when it comes to asking Talent to either host their shows and also to be gas on their shows so there are some concerns that I do understand but I think overall acquisitions of independent companies are a good thing for the sector.

Starting point Caroline cos there comes a point doesn't know where the sort of Rising Tide boats analogy stuff wears them if you're an Ender podcast like I am like Christina isn't like you are on the one hand it's great to have a flood of interest in podcast in podcast team because surely it must be the case instinctively it feels right it more people listen to podcast them all like to discover yours, but they'll come a point at which if any podcast being featured on Apple podcast homepage your on Spotify playlist or attracting big-name Talent as Christina says is owned by a few networks.

We really just created an ecosystem.

That isn't any different build mediaworld over the last few years.

I've become increasingly disillusioned with that Rising Tide lifts all boats analogy that big players like to deploy have any move like that and I've actually recently come to think that the problem with that is almost a technological one rather than anything else if you didn't go YouTube for instance if you watch.

Even the smallest YouTube creator or you say what a big one you can still get recommended this morning YouTube creators video straight after the algorithm is there to show you more of what you like? You're getting served stuff from there's no equivalent in podcasting.

So even though you know my so might sit right next to David Tennant podcast in the app theoretically there's nothing telling you if you listen to his name is even that exist.

I'm just not sure what the mechanism for the floating.

Is it that makes sense a bit more chat about that later when we talk about Facebook's new entrance into this world take from your perspective.

You know you report on the TV industry main me please x else happened there all the time.

Don't they? I know I asked you earlier Weather Channel 4 with small fries go to the same question really I mean you know I have three brothers getting all a bit excited because it's about podcasting was really this is just you know of course big companies by medium-sized.

What happens now.

I think it's really really interesting.

Congratulations podcast somebody else to TV as well company with an excellent reputation so I can see exactly why can't the Alexa you be interested in them.

I think one of the most interesting trends in podcasting at the moment.

I see is it shows being adapted into TV dramas, if you look at the likes of the missing crypto Queen the BBC's top 29 and audible West Cork which is about the Sophie toscan du plantier murder these shows are in the demand and producers are involved in building walls to get the rights and that can only be a good thing for the industry podcast network asking you to name your price here, but you know is there in the back of your mind now in a way that they probably wouldn't have been 5 years ago an exit strategy.

Are you can yes? I would like someone likes only to break me and say his ex million mail.

I like the exit strategy so right now.

I have a lot of autonomy over what I do.

What shows I produce over.

What who I invite on to the team and all of those sorts of things in the structure.

Just basically the structure of any kind of podcast but if you once you're a quote by a company you kind of living by the rules and you're playing their game now and they will probably come to the earth right.

There'll be like basil.

Your money is your senior position.

You'll be a valued member of the team and then you'll get there and you'll find out just how valued you are you won't have the same amount of freedom that you do when you are independent, but you will have a lot more money.

What makes you happy.

Would consider selling if I could leave within a year then, maybe I mean Caroline I'm curious about something else.

Please around this acquisition which highlighted house Sony were.

I think the quote was an artist first company which might be fair enough.

I don't know enough about the record industry Frankie to know how they differentiate them music wise but if that's true doesn't hint at you know maybe we've just seen the Beginning like we've just scratched the surface of celebrity driven podcasting and in fact the next strategy.

It's not it's not Popstars having Twitter anymore.

It's any new artist that Sony is going to launch is going to have their own podcast definitely there's already been some moves around the kind of symbiosis between music and podcast they've been some sort of podcast versions of album Spotify have experimented with this like running commentary tracks in between.

On an album by DVD extras that kind of thing and a Sony have started leveraging their the music right they owned to use them in podcasts.

You know cos that's property that they have that everyone else has to either not usual pay a huge amount for so yeah that that sort of connection is really heating up.

I do think as well.

I can do you ever listen to a podcast made play I heart radio in the US they play especially if you're not in the US they feel they had Infantry with trails for their other shows so many musicians podcast on iHeartRadio country musicians that you've not heard of put out music for 20-years.

I've got podcasts and I have a radio so I do think that that kind of carpet bombing is approach is coming.

I will have heard of them listen to Chris country TV advertising because the government has confirmed A ban on junk food advertising before 9 p.m.

The details.

Is is actually fairly straightforward this kind of basically what you describe? There's not going to be junk food advertising on telly before 9 p.m.

Is going to be tighter restrictions online as well the rationale behind this is that they stopping kids seeing McDonald's adverts on telly or online.

It means that kids can be less likely to go into McDonald's by Big Mac and that's a that's a noble ambition, but broadcasters and the ad industry to coin a phrase or not loving it.

They they know junk food is big business and so with less of it on our screens at basically be less and revenue sloshing around in the in the TV milkshake ITV2 exerted Callum calls spoken about this number.

He thinks is arbitrary and ineffective.

She basically says that the money that is not spent on advertising will be used to fund price.

On Junkies therefore making them more tempting to young people or it could come to us as one of the things I've noticed but audio is exempted you allowed radio ads and you're allowed considering with this article basically with the position that the government taken is that there is fuming that young people consuming their content on television like ok.

We know that for a fact that a lot of young people are consuming their content through unscheduled Media whether that be streaming service is YouTube even on their Xbox so I'm not sure exactly how effective this is going to be and what kind of threat that's going to be in Cadburys wouldn't advertised on.

TV if it was on effective with them that they do see a result they sell more hallmark, because they advertised it on telly otherwise I wouldn't do it a series out now.

They still see result now, but is that shifting I think that it is I think that as it becomes more popular and has friends become more sophisticated with the advertising they'll be advertising through different channels and different channels and not just through television.

I think the the weight of television advertising to other advertising will shift and actually still be advertising on TV because it's not a simple actually is Jake made it out to be you can still advertise if your McDonald's for example.

I'm just picking them because they're the big fast food brand everyone knows to be representative of any you cancel advertise if your McDonald's between 5 p.m.

And 9:30 p.m.

You're just literally not allowed to show the Big Mac but you can have Ronald McDonald singing a song and you still have a bad Association there don't.

You do it's one of those subtleties.

That is probably quite meaningful if you work in advertising but to your average TV viewer including me sitting home.

It will still be McDonald's.

I will still think about the food I can buy there when I see it, so yes, I if if indeed this goes ahead.

I would be really interested to see a study of year on on has it had any impact I remain sceptical at the moment also concerns in the campaign groups to try and restrict advertising.

I'd say one is fast food and the other is gambling and I mean this is my view.

I know that fast food is harmful, but you know a burger isn't harmful.

Where is obviously a bit can get you addicted to online gambling isn't a bit weird that they prioritise the over the Sports Betting needs to be looked at closely.

You only have to watch European

Tips on my TV to see how much Sports betting on telly and I'm an avid football fan and it is just constant bombardment and luckily I don't have a procedure was I think if I did then it would be dangerous.

It is dangerous, GB news.

Let's go there.

It is only 2 weeks old and lots of course.

It is unfair to judge the success of any new channel based on its baby steps.

Let's do that joke.

It was a car crash wasn't it? I know that's not what you think if you look at the way that it's writing and I'm getting my information from broadcast ratings receiving price go on TV news TV news.

Did very well a minute.

It's been averaging about €50,000 in its first week which put on a par with Sky Sky News

The distance around 90000 years but no to establish yourself as a genuine rival to Sky News within a few days of launch is a really massive achievement regardless of what you think of TV news on its and it's mantra and what it stands for will it be clear when I said it's a car crash what I'm referring the news fails that are all over social media.

Let's get it looks fairly amateur tissues were extraordinary this so I just want to order describe what this looks like to our audience only listening, so behind me I have to soundproof like things that I got from IKEA with a blanket breaks.

I literally look the same as Andrew Neil's monologues it and you are on the zoom call at the moment in little Square boxes and that looks the same as Dan wootton's evening show I mean cheap doesn't even cover it does it?

Can we put in for a podcast that we are recording on phones the difference is that our signals astable and you can hear us at all times.

Where is RGB use their cutting out? I was watching it last night in preparation for today and Dan Watson queued up a clip and the guest and they just never materialized it has been fun watching eclipse.net Christina but there's a bit for me as a presenter.

I'm watching you think of some of those presenters like highly experienced as well.

You know it's not just kind of rookies making mistakes.

They've just been put in an environment where they're not being looked after and there's nothing you can do your thing that nautical but is not working you can't really ad-lib the news if the advert doesn't turn up when it's supposed to and you've already linked to it.

Can you do but sit there in silence for a few seconds if you work out what you sorry for the minute.

I guess it's huge undertaking.

I feel like that invested a lot of money in the journalist and also in the Talent and then zero into the production.

Somebody needs to really look at that again.

I just don't know how it went wrong but in some ways it that the mistakes or what made it really popular.

I only watched it because it went wrong that is the only reason why I watched it.

I don't know whether I'll be returning you.

Oh, yeah, I feel like that's what that's what happened somebody focused a little too heavily on the Talent and on the I guess the notable and not enough in making sure that the production workflow was just like executed really really well and somebody to go and do that.

That's the conservatory there isn't that they did this on purpose to generate interest I do know that the DVDs fails Twitter account which I maths like 60000 old followers in the space of a few.

Has just disappeared something else I mean on a person is completely personal perspective and I don't know who represent anything Jade but I'm I'm a part and Andrew Neil fan.

I think he's an absolute class act.

I would watch him all the time on his own shows on the BBC and just think he was in a class of his own really in terms of being compelling and using language and you know making a and I haven't been tempted to watch him on TV news, because it looks so cheap and I find that quite interesting in myself that I was swayed by that because it's still the same and in fact is now sort of unrestricted by public broadcast guidelines and I actually just don't want to watch it.

Just it's actually put me off.

It's not even the political smell of it.

It is literally the look of it.

Yeah.

I'm clearly made some tweaks on screen.

So if you were watching the first couple of nights it does look slightly different sets of better lit their positioning the presenters in smarter ways they thinking.

The about the way that throws a different guests this is an evolving thing.

I clearly got there a bit earlier than they would have they should have done even though it was a few times.

I know that doesn't really make much sense, but they're on there probably too soon and they will iron out these issues.

I think I think it's going to is going to continue to generate a lot of bottles TV news.

They are ready on ofcom's radar.

There's been no just trying 400 complaints about Dan wootton's debut show there will be an investigation.

I should imagine and that will keep generating headlines and I think if successes creating bars online creating clips that then lead to very divisive conversation DVDs is probably doing it off is the problem if there is a problem Caroline I'm talking about.

Claiming is the problem but it's called GB news because it isn't really news channel.

Is it you know if you think about LBC which is obviously models on LBC is called LBC News and they have a station called that sounds a lot more like the news.

You know LBC is an opinion station and I just thought I wonder if it was called GB views it would be much clearer, but it was it's the fact that people feel uncomfortable in it, but there's been presented as is the back I think so.

Yeah.

I do think the branding and the positioning of it as this could be your only source of information is a bit hard when I like you.

I watched it because I find it entertaining you know I like the tuning because because I'm told that will be something funny to see and I would hazard a guess that as a proportion of the the audience are doing the same at the moment.

There's a novelty value in seeing you know so BBC ask completely opinionated show.

British perspective never used to seeing that from other countries, but that's not how the positioning it yet.

I think maybe that will come so interesting that it's taken so long away for there to be a nightmare opinion show at a time, but isn't the paper review slot Christina for a long time but paper review slot on both the BBC news channel and Sky News in the most popular part of the evening and it's you know she produces two people £25 it on the sofa and it was on the front of the papers tomorrow and yet.

You can't watch it till 10:30 11:30.

So they have managed to find an hour and a half of time when people that just might want that consent and it's there for them that it's been a good move again.

I'm much like you I'm not going to comment on the content, but I think it was a good move in terms of where they place the slot what they have done.

Is there lead elimination and segmented an audience and that is actually something that we do a broadcasting isn't it? That's what they doing the super serving people and that's something that TV hasn't done very well in this country.

Yeah and so does YouTube

That's the reason why lot of audiences have been flocking towards YouTube enter podcast and various other platforms is because the TV hasn't really served audiences what they want from their commentary and from their news and so what GB is done is taking advantage of that moves very quickly to a fault as we know but it has done that and I feel like that if they can get their act together very quickly other news sources for other resources will follow suit your prediction is here.

I mean do you think you'll be news will still exist in I'm going to say 2-years cos I think in a year's time.

Will still be giving it a go if it wasn't working.

Do you think you've been used will still be here in 2 years time.

Bet they're definitely questions about is commercial sustainability whether they going to make the revenue that they need from advertising is remains to be seen they are going to experiment with membership models which puts him in the same bracket the Guardian which is unusual an ironic twist and yeah, I think that that will be the test I mean that they've got some interesting back as well.

That's the only thing he may be prepared to bankroll this in the future you like Discovery now.

They're not short of a few bob and if they've decided that TV news is something that they want to support then.

I don't think they're doing after the short-term.

They are doing that because I think there's a genuine proposition here and the church Centre to state of broadcasting real state possibly another European countries as well.

That they need to I need to stop the Advertiser Boycott though that's that's not been good genuinely to have companies like IKEA in Vodafone turn around and say we don't want to advertise on regardless of what they say on air that is not a good thing.

Let's talk about newspapers and the sun has lost 201 million pounds in the last year into News UK tabloid such a fall from grace.

Well the two things that they they said one is lockdown and then its consequent effect on you stand sales in whsmiths being closed for months on end.

All High Street shops etc.

Where people might pick up papers and the digital revenue has not been sufficient in any way to offset that so yeah, I think in a nutshell that's that's what it is.

Series dumbo nagging there's no there's no doubt that the charge of 52 mm in feet and damages painter 22 civil payment, so that's a big.

Chunk if you're trying to make a profit even so the sunglasses outstrip the ones that they had it over in settlements for phone-hacking so I've been Christina if you ask you about TV news.

I'm going through the editor of I'm sure but what would you do to turn the Ship Around around? I just close it even to continue using the analogy.

I how would I turn around I feel like with the sun and in part.

This is down to it's owners acted too slowly when it came to innovation within the digital so Cal Caroline already mentioned that the digital advertising.

Insufficient enough to make up for those losses were that's because they were too slow to move in the preceding years at of the pandemic anyone who was successful for the pandemic already did the groundwork when it came to their digital propositions well that would advertising memberships weather that was kind of like Facebook groups or YouTube or even podcast so that a lot of the other news networks have been able to weather the storm of the pandemic because they had all those other digital assets and the sun was just very very and didn't make much of a moving any other any of those other areas as well Caroline having a bit of an identity crisis is Gerard writing the new Europe said the mail is sharper the star is whittier the mirror more caring metro is free who needs the sun anymore who's talking to what is it trying to say yeah, that's very much.

Feel about it is when you're trying to explain the British tabloids to someone who isn't from here.

What would you say about the sun? You know once upon a time you would have said the somewhat one at age 3 and those things are applicable anymore.

It's still the second biggest newspaper in the country.

Just to be clear but it needs to be the biggest really to send a proper profit.

That's what's interesting about them.

All they need to be mass-market.

It's no good having and they are mass market still the second biggest newspaper in the country and clearly this is obviously news, but is it really use that newspaper The Lost leaders and does that change Rupert Murdoch's opinion of why he owns the sun? I'm probably not I would say ok, let's attention to a controversy in the TV now and the BAFTA winning production company behind the Crown is under the spotlight this week after reporting the Guardian that they this is Left Bank pictures allegedly mishandled a complaint by two female freelancers.

Since stopped working for the company complaints against senior male executive UPAD guilty to sexual assault and the allegations of it left bank.

Just didn't handle it properly said yes, these two women Holly I hope I'm pronouncing her surname correctly bored along and Laura Johnson they basically accused leftbank of playing Croucher who is the man who was accused of the centre of missed accused of downplaying is a wrongdoing leftbank initially refused to fire him and the women also said that Left Bank failed to allocate them when they wanted to report this matter to the police.

That's kind of Crocs are there argument basically bank have said very clearly that the woman's well-being was absolutely essential during its investigation into the original complaint then also said they fully cooperated with the police investigate.

Although they had to the police had to secure production order to access information from eskbank, although that is actually fairly standard practice when it comes to information Christina in the way the question.

Is is this good news and a strange sort of way, you know despite it being horrible episode is it good news that it's coming to light because that wouldn't have happened to or you know is it bad news that it's still going on this stuff.

I think both of those things are correct.

We probably wouldn't know about it.

If it wasn't for the me too movement.

They would been a cover up would be swept under the carpet even if it was acknowledged by the production company even by the public.

It might not have been taken seriously as a bit hansi big surprise surprise nobody is taken seriously yeah exactly exactly you would have been taken seriously by anybody within our Society apart from other women.

But I do think that there's still work to be done.

It's still happened and it still happened in relatively recent history, so when this took place I believe the me too movement was already taking traction.

It was he in spite of the meeting movement.

He still is he thought he could still get away with this and that's a problem.

Why are exact male executives in this particular instance and many others why did they feel like inspire be in spite of all lies being on the topics like this.

Do they still think that they can get away with it and they think that because there's a problem with the situation is some of the answer to that question Caroline because they were freelancers.

I've been made.

Hope not but you do wonder if the situation is different when you're talking about members of staff when everyone's very clear at the level that.

I wondered that as well when I read the story and I think that's a important point perhaps for investigations and someone to focus on is your entertainment generally audio TV all kinds relies very heavily on contract workers and freelancers and they're all kinds of things that freelancers don't enjoy like a such as you know paid holiday time and that kind of things that kind of cast iron protection of an automatic tribunal and you know the employee handbook and all that kind of thing similarly.

They don't necessarily have access to what things do about this case though is I believe the company did have policies in place that their actions that they need actions didn't follow so there is a sense in which they have a protection and I think protection and diversity policy but by not in a dismissing or taking the van into disciplinary action and just instead letting him resign with notice.

Following policies even when you bring on freelancers well, I can speak for myself.

There are protections within those contracts within those freelance agreement and so even if people are values with you know by signing up to various ipaqs and you know registering that certain diversity boards and bodies.

There's still lots of still protected under their there freelance agreements and so it was actually even more poorly handled from my perspective than just kind of like.

Oh there were provisions in place and we just didn't follow them nose freelancers are protected under any terms of employment well.

That's a lesson for every companies that check you know we see routinely production companies signing up to Frankley virtue-signalling policies.

You know we will.

X number of people from diverse Communities and we will do everything we can for disabled people and we fly the flag whatever it is actually when things happen there are still issues because it seems like very often but not somebody job.

It is to make sure yeah, I think your spot on companies have to be very mindful of the fact that when there's only up to these pledges that they then follow through and I told her some acknowledge that if they have their time again.

They would probably have handled this a bit differently but I think it's really encouraging it.

It's really good that women are kind forward and Tony stories is really important for the industry and really important.

We are seeing a bit of a me too movement in the TV Industry at the moment slightly late, but it's really good that it's happening.

We need to get to the bottom of these cases a lot of them.

No cock is facing accusations from more than 20 women there's another very senior producer called Charlie Hanson who until last month was working on Netflix series Afterlife candystand accused that that those accusations have sparked a bigger debate about these issues in television and we are going to see a very high-level summit in the coming weeks organised by x up and after tomorrow key industry stakeholders looking at this issue, specifically and asking the question, what can be done better to handle and address historical sexual misconduct allegations who does the responsibility full to when these accusations image OK one more story to squeeze in before the media quiz as alluded to earlier Facebook have launched its live.

Audio and podcast services in the States be long till it comes over here.

What do you think are the pros to Facebook being involved in podcasting the pros are Facebook incredible incredible user base and therefore people who like I can't reach the same audiences that Facebook managed to reach and so if they're bye-bye some kind of I don't know before by proximity more people are listening to podcasts then maybe also people listen to some of the podcast that I produce then.

That's a good thing, but it could honestly just end up being an Amazon right so Amazon make-up 70% of the sales online and that could easily be Facebook

The podcast giving up their user base is so he is they could absolutely swallow the number of listeners whole almost that's interesting haven't heard people make that claim before most people seem to think or seems to think until Spotify came on the scene anyway that Apple had its own up when it came to podcast as now there are kind of two companies in town.

Do you think there is room for Facebook to be a dominant player by providing effectively a glorified RSS feed I feel like from what we've seen so far then not at the moment trying to compete on the in the kind of apple vs.

Spotify was it I don't think there's much suggestion of original content or that you would and sort of see Facebook as your kind of provider podcast more I think to me all the seems like an attempt from Facebook to get people to spend more time on Facebook and if they're listening to podcast in other apps.

Will you could be doing that on Facebook

And I think that they live audio rooms in a kind of Clubhouse way is another facet of that as well.

Do you think spurred on by club Spotify live audio function is going to catch up with the live video thing even but it's sort of exists but rarely trends.

If you see what I mean.

Obviously has he looks like you're not on it, so I don't know about it.

This is classic Facebook PlayBook is needs.

It's taking elements from other apps and integrating them into their own products and designed to get people to spend more time with Facebook and by and large that tactic works famously imitated Snapchat stories on Instagram and future success Facebook is currently going after the tinder tried were dating this is what Facebook what are the cons Caroline I think Christine's right in the sense that you know Facebook saved?

Into the water world ends on the owns the whole thing I do you think that as with any new platform that enters podcasting podcast is have to be aware of what terms and conditions.

They're signing up to you by putting their show on you know is Facebook going to strip out your ADS and monetize your show yourself, you're all that kind of kind of stuff.

I think is is a possibility and then there's also as Spotify found in it's early 48-in podcasting.

There's the kind of moderation aspect of this is Facebook just allowing anybody to stick a podcast Up on Facebook or is there some kind filter or process? That's going to keep the quality high generate supposed but if your network with 10 different shows you might want to change the way that those look it might be difficult to get all the RSS is going on two different pages.

You have to build up your community's it's time, isn't it very small agile?

Oh, yeah, I mean if you think of it a bit like social media right so each social Media platform has a different way of engaging with the audience and so each kind of each apsos Spotify has a different way of doing things Apple have a different way of engaging with audiences and all the other smaller podcast apps have a different way of engaging with older then add Facebook and I kind of feel like I'm on and you know that I'm able to have people on board help me out here but if you are solo podcast how do you maintain this like how how do you kind of write a different a different description for each and every platform you're gonna probably just resort you know dragon.

Play like I'm just going to upload it and it's it's great my feed and that's it.

Get onto the media quiz which this week is entitled you do the math with a complex Media some all you need to do you need to do is provide the numerical Media answer so the closest contestant wins they each get a turn to answer each some it's best of 3 letsplay you do them here some number one the number of years Holby City will have been on the air before it ends in March plus the age of Casualty actor Derek Thompson Derek Thompson plays Charlie fairhead in Casualty that helps.

Yeah.

I just have a guess you have a guest please.

Will you calculate I'm going to say 8888 ok Christina I was going to go 7600 hire 90/95.

Clothes Stephanie Caroline point though because the correct answer is 9623 + 73 Jake Holby City been axed after 23 years is that about refreshing the schedules of cost-cutting the BBC is making room for a new nations and regions drama.

Yes, yes absolutely the number of Seasons made of Undercover Boss on the number of years after it was axed, but ITV have revised it for deadline number Seasons Undercover Boss plus the number of years after it was axed, but ITV Revived it.

I'm going to SE13 and Christina

Fa15 Caroline 1414 ok well, you're all very much homing in around a number that Jake got absolutely bang on the answer is 13/6 + 7, this is a skip for you a deadline wasn't it Undercover Boss coming back? Yeah, it's coming back on on ITV which I think is better because it's plausible don't know what the box looks like that is true, but also this is a fantastic advert for Channel 4 that show started life on a quiet corner of Channel 4 and it was exported to America was shown after the Superbowl to 40 million people in America that if that's not an advert for soft British power and Channel 4.

I don't know what is if you've never episode where the Hooters boss how to watch as waitresses were forced to eat from a dog bowl.

I would highly recommend ok question number three apologies the month that x

Who has been on air X the average number of listeners the station is getting according to radar this one just please just send 12 10 12 closest that is because there are no radios for times radio and it's been on for 12 x 0 complete that in this day and age we have no radio ratings.

We've had no radiating some more than a year billion a diary with a pen and paper so they can get a £50 Marks and Spencer voucher and if anyone is listening to an entirely different consolation.

It does feel weird radio final thing I mean they've been going for a year.

Do you think they'd be happy with how it's been going?

Lucy I think not I think they've been a bit upstaged by the likes of GB news to be quite frankly know the PlayBook was there I know it's all the same stable ultimately but I think the paper it was so similar you know the big-ticket hires at the beginning and you know the promise of you people away from the BBC and then I'm not sure that there's many cannabis deaths shaking moments that you have to tune into Downtown Radio 4 right well that brought us to the end of this edition of the podcast my thanks to Christina Moore Caroline Crampton and who is winner Jake Carter if you haven't heard hour podcast DE24 special.

Why not it is available for free right now on our feed so to hear former wamc and BBC exact tulips on the future of audio and Shima Holly on making Dolly Parton's America just hit follow on the podcast app of choice in Macbeth throughout and remember this is possible.

Financial support so if you can afford to help us keep independent head to the media podcast.com / donate stories from being independent by buying many millions of pounds do a new episodes when they drop on your Podcast episode choices you can subscribe Apollo.com / the media podcast hey there.

It's Jake Humphrey here from the award-winning high-performance podcast people seem to be loving it.

Do you know I think they love it because I guess I just totally honest so having conversations with us too.

I believe you won't hear anywhere else come on because they want to share their personal stuff.

They want you to learn from the things that they've done the mistakes they've made the great moment.

They've experienced however you might be the kind of person that died.

Everyone all of your secrets being shared and that is cool and that is also why I absolutely recommend WhatsApp I use it all the time for my messages on forever send if your voice notes or bringing them messages on WhatsApp because it uses end-to-end encryption which means no one not even a WhatsApp has any idea what you're sending the only people that know what's on that message is the sender and the recipient are just think that's worth knowing.


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