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Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only man and on this week show with presenting highlights from podcast DE24 international conference replace on Monday in Sydney London and New York Street choice clips one from each continent but gives you the inside track on the current trends in podcasting we start in reverse order with one of the co-creators of Dolly Parton's America Shima or are you working with the creator of radiolab JAD abumrad? Who was a friend of dollies the show track the Iconic singers career and personal life and Matt on Top the contemporary history of America is humour on how they landed on that up.

And how they planned to make dolly cry.

Thank you.

So I approached the series like a detective because of Dad of course.

We had access to dolly and you do something but didn't know quite white someone had sorted and idea roundabout doing a dolly album mixtape like an album of cover songs and that's when I started my research.

So my first question was a report a story on an icon who's already been so over reported.

She's already written an autobiography.

She's been for decades in the public eye and I didn't know if I could find anything new happening was as I started my adventure.

I had a series of Revelations some by myself in some like alongside the house of the series and ended up doing was force me to look at myself like a mirror the same way she she did for all of America as we continue.

The first crazy coincidence is before I started researching I had seen dolly perform once and it was actually in October 2016 and it was the end of her Nash tour right at the end of the election so as all of the video was happening in the country.

I saw her create the happiest place on Earth and that's when I when I was thinking about that moment.

I've encountered an essay Series by Sarah smarsh in no depression magazine and she put it into perfect words what I had seen I was sitting in my home office on Twitter told me that came online people live tweet that Dolly show or treating were all women and 10-minute particular.

She said that majestic B just started playing at Guardian penfleet.

What is happening the pan flute weeding the touring exactly the moment when the 2016 election was Turning very of how do you like FBI and now you're running for president through all of that noise through the general election and beyond in this further divided moment seems to Maybe by a kind of unifier in the process of my detective work this was the first new question I had about dolly.

How is she the great unifier and first interview I did with their smart.

I realise that well.

We have made her collectively a boob job or many people have that she was one of the only safe bosom that any American could cry on and I thought that was a really unique and almost extraordinary at this time and

When I was reflecting back on my experience of her concert and as a secondary research.

I realised that she was telling the story about home for 40 years and at first I felt a little like.

Oh, she's tricking us to like believe in this kind of persona or this like Dolly you know fairy hologram that she has a dollywood and it can't be real in so I'm trying to find the holes in a puncture that image and that's when I found out I was on the New York Times website and I saw this class called Dolly Parton's America and the professor and when I did it on the phone.

We spoke for 4 hours straight and then she invited us to meet her class.

So this is my first recording script for this is it was Easter weekend and I walking with Dad and I was your easter, but I told her about my first experience it like meeting Jesus

When I was with any religion, but my brother was born I went to the Catholic church, and it's because our closest family friend was going to church so talking about how the sky was with making on the wall like a little scary to me when I left a room the kids all ask Dad where does this person come from that they that I must be an alien.

It was I was out of water when I came back something has shifted in the room and I kind of intimacy was unveiled that we were expecting and that's when people shared about the accent my mum was like how we need to sit down if you want to take you seriously we're going to have to work on the we took her mum would actually practice word throughout the day.

4

get get get pronounce each words that there is no hint of southern accent in there all to talk slower and slower because you're going to have to work twice as hard for people to take you happy seriously exterior paint aren't Halle Harlow fire flower.

You know my I was sat down when I was younger as well and that would have to learn the street now my accent for fire oil this moment so a sounding because as a first-generation American I was always the weird one in the room and this is something I do played and if I do it with Dad he's expensive Hennessy

Explain string up in Adam and there was something about with the kids were saying about being the other when I had seen that kind of the mainstream force of going up and it give me of my cousins in Iran who never got to leave their Homeland and said that you know she would always be in there on the world stage because she never got to come to America and she also shared that she's always have an accent that she's always be out of place because she was born here and that I kind of started connecting there is something as sounding Lee beautiful about the Middle East and the South and there's a man is here that I really want explore at that point was just a kernel of an idea and after that I booked my first my first.

My body vs.

Grandmother.

We went to her Kentish farm, and she cried about the song the coat of many colours and she said about her many years of domestic abuse with different husband at the end of the interview and crying together.

We got in a car and we drove to the cemetery.

Where some of her ex-husband were buried and it was back in the car that.

Can I had a breakdown and so this is a cup of that moment didn't actually the series but this was the key to everything that came after my parents came to America my father's village girl was like not just try and then she walked out the door.

I know you guys went through so much, but it's really beautiful together that was really hard for my cousin my two female cousin's on my dad's side.

He stayed even if things were horrible they did stay but I don't think it was better for them.

It was pretty bad been interesting like through this journey of like looking at dollywood, Tennessee even getting to know you guys.

It's making me connected to the Middle East which is a very strange thing to be in the Kansas claims in like.

I'm just thinking about you know you know my grandma.

So after that trip with Grandma baby.

I got to meet Dad and the only connection with him before that moment was I had her dad's first interview with Dolly Parton which was you know her just doing Ali isn't so basically 90-minute Street the very and she starts you know infinite dad's dad and his Lebanese accent southern accent.

Tidy of 1S and then I got asked to go to the second every word darling, which was very nerve-wracking and so as much as we have spoken to please people that were saying these incredible things about Dolly Parton without her actually you know opening up or giving us anything new we didn't really have anything that spectacular so I was very nice as I researched 4-months.

I called every other every journalist read every book I watch sound archival data that no one had seen and then out for 5 months.

I got together with jadon, basically what I did was I took everything I found in a minute of 4 and half hour trajectory PowerPoint presentation something to bring to the Studio with Dolly too kind of surprised her or like Makerfield think she hadn't felt and this was this is where kind of my goal came into play I have a back.

In psychology in so I know that there's a story that everyone has they don't tell anyone and that my goal was just to find out.

What was the thing that made a quiet night? So I actually told deadly.

I need to have an interview is Dolly needs to cry but I felt like we had it done her job until place of real emotion, so the day of the interview we going with this phone have our trajectory and we were total United we actually sit of prayer and the car before you went in because we knew we couldn't get her to say something new we just didn't have a series so we go in so nervous JAD is leading and he pulls out his computer starts doing the PowerPoint and an Astra question one the way and I was kind of their based on the Foundation of my research to know when to come in and push to come in and interject especially when.

Pasta with I knew there was an answer to and back and forth United and this way and halfway through the bathroom break and I'm going to a restaurant and she looked at me.

Just so surprised like I did not know you guys came this seriously I was not expecting this end at the end of those four-and-a-half hours where we felt like we literally left the planet shield quite wise and when I got back into the car and go to each other and we said we knew something special we can build a whole series off of this and from there.

I really just took liberties with the framing of Dolly Parton's America and Dolly Parton's world socially connecting a divorce reads to her break with Wagner 9252 the women's movement and also catchy music expanding as like Americans are migrating and even zoomed out into dollars.

And I think the reason I was able to have these revelations over the series and how it became so personal was that I remember this quote from this like Buddhist philosophy and I was much younger and he said when you try so hard that the sweat of your brow and you squeeze out with them which you didn't even think you had you can make the impossible possible so kind of the craziest relation.

I had was this moment in South Africa that really mirrored with actually going on in America today and my favourite moment from the series is the day that episode was do I found the cellmate of Nelson Mandela his name is Tokyo sexually and I called them because in a very early interview a writer name Wayne blood cell from Knoxville head shared about kinky Friedman autobiography and that Nelson Mandela love country music when I get on the phone with Tokyo

He showed me this incredible Story one of the dolly songs that you heard Nelson Mandela play.

l-arginine

oh well, love you.

I just think about a night at Robben island in the dark wendolene is playing over the loudspeakers the prisoners here in their cells on the other wall.

The guards are listening to and both groups of people are having the same experience this song is not about love it's about fear the prisoners feel that because they've lost their freedom and the guards feel that because their country is changing and they sent they're about to lose power.

Both are feeling the same fear but for very different reasons of the old can someone country this WhatsApp message could be about surprise birthday party or a present made a lightsaber or a date the trampoline Park about something else entirely voice message reminder about a running day all running late for a day or running late for a rainy day today.

Anyway.

What are you up to? This is about only they know with end-to-end encryption no one not even being sent WhatsApp message.

Hello, I'm Jessie Ware from table Manners the podcast now here with my mum died and we have a special bonus episode of table manners coming to you sponsored by Sainsbury's taste autumn edition range check about we talk to the fantastic broadcaster an entrepreneur Laura Jackson all about how to host fantastically listen now on your podcast app next up we travel to London where are the BBC and wnyc exact Tony Phillips delivered the keynote lecture for the conference in this unguarded essay.

Tony reflects on his career and delivers a warning to the industry a year or the day of the Colston statue coming down in Bristol is Tony hello.

It's a pleasure to been invited to talk today about the future of audio and other industry.

I want a first go back a little bit in time in order to hopefully see a clearer path to the Future

my own road into audio started perhaps in Bristol and to be precise on my first day at drama school.

I spent 2 years in the early 1980s at the Bristol Old Vic theatre school on a professional training course for actors what I went on to learn about audio storytelling actually goes back to dozes Anderson remarkably gifted tutors and fellow students, but critically on that first day.

I also started to learn a lesson about about myself and how I'm perceived by others it was lunchtime and feeling very much like a fish out of water.

I wanted to escape the building and spend a little time on my I just turned 20 years old and from Yorkshire and to my knowledge.

No one in my family had done anything like this.

Taking the unconventional road, and not gone to university, but here I was and I was hungry I asked one of the older students where I could get a sandwich here's what you said something like this.

You need to go to the Black Boy

go out with the front door of the school turn right and this will bring it to Whiteladies Road turn left up the hill to blackboy hill and the blackbird cafe is on the left.

What stand me?

Is that the street names that I was sold to account for locating Bristol's historic past as a city built almost entirely on the proceeds of the transatlantic slave trade?

these names black boy White Ladies

didn't seemingly phase my fellow student not a bit.

The irony that he was saying them to me didn't seem to register.

I decided to follow the instructions.

I walked up Whiteladies Road which morphed Into blackboy Hell and there I saw a sign above a shop saying black boy Cafe and walked in to be confronted with a normal sandwich stuff and a poster Behind the Counter of one of those caricatured wide-eyed smiling thick lipped minstrel like boy.

The shop owner appeared from behind a curtain of some sort rubbing his hands together.

Cheerily.

He asked hello, what can I get you?

I remember not being able to take my eyes off the poster.

I was also taken aback by the normality of his demeanor towards me.

Just another student wanting a sandwich nothing on here.

I just left.

I took a right.

And walk down Whiteladies Road in search of food.

But also reflecting on how I was going to navigate life in this new city as an adult where you are not being heard or being seen Walking Down Whiteladies Road in Bristol you reach Park Street where the road is a steep downhill and at the bottom.

It's swings around to the left there in the distance stood the statue of the slave trader, Edward Colston

Or at least it did until on this day June 7th 2020 exactly one year ago today.

as a response to the unfathomably brutal Killing of George Floyd at the hands of the police officer in Minneapolis in the United States

with millions of others I watched the news footage of Colston statue being ripped off its plinth and cast into the harbour.

Just a short distance away.

Make no mistake, this was a moment.

We all know this.

according to the historian and broadcaster David Olaf sugar

It's believed that Colston was responsible for the death of approximately 19000 Africans 19000 victims of slavery.

4 Colston Africans served a purpose

we served a purpose to cut sugarcane or tobacco.

For the man who worked in the Black Boy cafe, my purpose was to hand over £1 or something for a sandwich.

Need a Colston or the man in the black boy cafe really saw or heard black people.

Black people were both invisible and inaudible beyond a usefulness as a tool or an implement or as a customer.

human being

didn't really come into the equation between existential pillars of being part of the African diaspora is being heard and being seen.

And this is certainly at the heart of what it means to carve out a career in the audio industry.

At the end of drama school all the students have to learn to promote and market themselves to theatres directors, etc.

Frankly anyone who might employ them with introduction and include headshots and CVs and send them to every repertory company in the country in the hope that we could land an audition to join their company in the season.

I remember writing to the Theatre Royal in York stressing my links to the area or just 20 miles or so away in Leeds York with the only theatre company that reply with anything other than a proforma rejection letter.

I hope so high as I remember the envelope been handwritten the letter went something like.

Dear Mr Phillips thank you for your interest as you might not be aware.

York is not a multicultural city and therefore we have no need for multi casting enclosed is your CV and photograph.

Something you just wish you'd kept.

But I remember being so angry.

I just threw it away invisibility off and sits at the heart of any organisation big or small going for harassment or discrimination problems.

the first recourse tents between gauge with HR and send everyone on one day courses half day courses 90-minute online courses

the aim is to change the culture and especially since last time a shocking events in Minnesota

7 terms of the future of this industry one year on today is the perfect day for those in positions of power to reflect an Aston selves, what have we done?

And that could mean anyone calling themselves a producer and executive producer and editor a company director and Owner a director general a CEO what have we done in terms of listening.

Have we heard what black and brown colleagues are saying in the room on the zoom in the interview in the room?

When we are there.

Can you see us?

I found some figures about the BBC then I strongly suspect apply to others beyond the BBC and beyond these Shores the BBC's annual report in 2019 Twenty20 tells us that in 2019 of all jobs advertised on the BBC careers hub 42% of the applicants were black and brown p.

20% of those were hired.

In the same year 58% of applicants white 80% were hired.

It didn't get any better in 2020.

It's not the numbers alone that are significant is the Stark experiential contrast in applying for positions and not being successful.

Turn 2020 more black and brown people applied and the split was 50/50 in terms of applications, but still 20% black and brown hire.

And white remained at 80%

when I worked in New York at wnyc Studios between 2016 and 2020 the company had their own crisis around representation and accusations of racism in stone again listening to black and brown staff the culture that wmic was to be broken in 2017 for senior white men three hosts and head of content were fired asked to leave resigned retired combination of the above.

A culture of sexism racism and workplace harassment have been allowed to grow most disturbing to me and to many others was the dismissal of three female co-host Avenue show to the station in 2007 called the takeaway the revolving door of dispensability so adorable and variety day and Celeste headlee.

All brilliant journalist and hosts enter the building one by one pretty much €1 each endure such obvious lack of support for their litany of complaints against the other co-host and the eventual sole host of the Show John huckleberry.

They took their complaint all the way to the top of the organisation to the CEO Laura Walker

Nothing happened one by one however the exit door was held open for them in.

Hope that they would just go away.

Only when a journalist wrote about the decade of abuse and bullying at wmic did the organisation set about a process of Culture change and transformation in 28 the signs were really not great company-wide away days looking at race and discrimination with rolled out something that didn't happen was any meaningful change to the structure and processes at the company.

Reversing the alarming figures for example for black and brown staff retention for example on average background staff State of New York Public Radio for 1 to 3 years why?

a number of reasons but mainly

You leave any situation any organisation?

When you know that you're not being heard or seen.

Systemic racism is real.

So after my own experience of not being seen for certain jobs in the theatre.

I made up my mind to put a Pause on my acting career such as it was and take some time out at university.

Looking across a bookshelf in North London was considering which cost to take and where I was attracted by a single title to be a slave by Julius Lester published in 1968 lasted on deep into the archives as slave narratives gathered in the United States in the United in the 1930s 1968 Leicester Don Deacon to the archivist slave narratives gathered in the United States in the 1930s hundreds of elderly african-americans were interviewed by historians to reconnect stories of their childhood when a course they were born into the institution of slavery Leicester set out to educate children young people have what bad experience might have been like he created a book based solely on these accounts.

And put together a blow by blow account from sunup to Sundown of what it would be like to live as a slave in the United States from standing on the auction block to live on the plantation work food.

Rest play Family resistance freedom the preface of the book which in the end riveted me to the spot was this and play from Tennessee AST

In all the books you've studied you have never studied Negro history.

Have you?

You studied about the Indian and white folks, but what did they tell you about the negro?

If you want Negro history, you'll have to get it from someone who wore the shoot and buy and buy from one to the other you will get a book.

The quote and the book quite literally changed the course of my life and lead directly to the University of East Anglia to read American History this interest in oral history led to watts total and this lead onto the BBC after graduation where the idea of hearing stories from people who wore the shoe has never been far from whatever I went on to make the invisible visible.

Or to put it another way the inaudible audible.

There's no doubt in my mind that George Floyd's death in May 2020 and the pulling down of the Colston statue on June the 7th 2020 will prove it all moments in their own way for the world to witness new temporary Museum open just a few days ago in Bristol exhibiting the recovered statue of Colston from Bristol harder.

It's not stay upright, but it's laying down flat still damage from the day and covered in graffiti it suggests to me that change is difficult and it will come up the courage and the foresight to overhaul the structure and change the shape of things.

Cultural change is possible.

It will mean that sometimes you have to tear down the odd structure.

The Haitian historian and anthropologist Michelle's trial in his brilliant study of power in the production of history said the ultimate Mark of power.

Maybe it's invisibility the ultimate challenge the exposition of its roots.

Sowon this is Thurrock day.

I'm indebted to the people in Bristol the tearing down that statue.

I believe that in their actions they stated so clearly what the audio industry needs to do to secure its own future.

Reconfigure it structure and shape, but as trial suggests.

It's about getting to the roots the subterranean.

That's what matters.

Sometimes you might actually have to take a vertical structure.

And lay it on its side horizontally to start seeing the change.

the exceptional bristol-based poet Vanessa casulli captured another great observation about the Colton statue in the poem she wrote last year entitled Hollow

in this extraordinary evocative poem she reflects on the toppling of the Statue and the Powerful revelation when a piece broke off to Hollow

the revelation that this waiter figure

the statue that have dominated the centre of Bristol since 1895 was literally empty.

And of course what happens if you tap on the side of a hollow metal object.

echoes

and I'm sure if you listen hard enough you can hear the voices of Africans going back many years that are waiting to be heard behind-the-scenes as producers editors researches ceo's.

Just listen.

Don't worry.

I've got a bag that make the environment greener cleaner and more sustainable.

I know he is Richard Palmer from Triton digital and Jamie cho from commercial radio Australia to reveal the trends in this high-growth market we're going to be giving you some numbers today around some podcast consumption using two data points the infinite dial Australia study and the Australian podcast will also walk through some of those are the trains coming up so let's let's Get Started With The Infinite dial Australia now the infinite dial the original study is a study that's been going for 20 years in the US looking at digital audio cancer.

Podcasting but it's also streaming and other stuff that people doing on smart speakers and on their phones and whatever else has been going in Australia for 5-years now and what we is.

It's a mirror of the American study 1000 respondents in each country.

It's the population spread is indicative of the Australian population so got a uniform.

What we doing your studying consumption on digital audio from Australia so the first one is a monthly podcast listening in 2021 and had a big rides and take a look at the rise over the previous years it was pretty steady, but I'm 21 and had a big rides when we look at weekly consumption it took another Rise so is it covered could it be something else here to data points that we did not release in the study because of the sheer size of the study the first one is the length of time.

How long have people been listening as a solicitor now.

We started it.

What's happening here the study was conducted in in January to March this year so 9% of Australians had been listening for less than 6-months 20% have been listening 6-months to less than one year.

So he's a sign.

What is the cova traffic? What is it covered pick up you when I'm looking at about 29%

I mean from a strange that thing from 1-year to less than 3 years is 35% So what was saying is the vast majority of a straight into a sampling podcasts on newbies to it is another data point that we say that was not released previously is how many podcasts are Australian subscribing to so it's it's stable so what's happening here? Is it 77 people subscribing to it is down.

I think what's happening here.

Is that there are new podcast consumers coming and still getting a head around it, but it's not it's not like in the room who will subscribe to an abundance of podcasts people have they said favourites antenna listening from there, so what's happening here is fig about the rising consumption think about the length of people of time that people have been listening to podcasts actually mixture of people coming in for the first time and those were being fully disengage with podcasting before who are now spilling some more.

For now I will jump to Richard to talk about the Australia podcast maker thanks.

Jamie if you haven't downloaded or seeing the infinite door.

I think everyone to do it.

I love it.

It's like having a box for the body's insides to help bad guy the market Australia podcast Frank has been going as we know since October 2019 with his phenomenal publishers up on screen now that make up television newspaper independence and they do a great job every single wave everyday creating content Now uses the ivy podcast measurements deadlines to be able to measure polishes so like for liking the reason for the rain car with the help of commercial radio Australia was to be able to put trust in what was being put out to Marko agencies in by so they could better understand what the makeup of the podcast landscape is and the downloads in market.

Disappearing publishers 48.2 million downloads of content and 260000 episode that I was surprised by this when I was digging through the dad.

I was like well 260000 episodes that we measure the next flight is really interesting.

20 25000 were uploaded in April so that means there's over 200000 episodes in a month of April that were downloaded so when you are creating thinking about creating content think about the long tail content think about how you can use your platforms dynamic ad insertion or dynamic continents ocean to make content relevant for when it's downloaded.

Have you put in an Advertiser and we all know the words baked in you bacon and advertiser your bacon contain that staggered for today was not be relevant next month of the month after so using dynamic content or dynamic.

It's really gonna now home your content with the listen up when they downloaded so this is is a really interesting figure so the month of April this is the top 100 podcast and the Australian top podcast how much really encouraging here is that the Australian continent is not too dissimilar to the top 100 overall so the top 100 messages all podcast of download the international and local but

Australian top 100 podcast is Australia continent created here and you can say there is a really strong titles in both of those that I might hear Right Here in Australia

and this is the breakdown of the categories so comedy estrelas, we'll have a laugh I do to clear Everlast fish like myself and followed by news Society and Culture true Crime sports business now.

Just going back to the top 100 and then those top-10 there when you're creating content being in the top-10 doesn't mean you're like successful successful, but if you're creating content that targets business uses a bit like the publisher fear and greed that's in the rank are those making audience making content for a niche audience its relevance of them and it's very success and we say that in there with the numbers and the numbers that have been downloaded each month it doesn't mean being in the top-10 that you're not successful.

You just making content that is relevant for your audience that is successful and then there's also successful for advertisers and brands are with you this one before.

Very interested to see this as you can say there's always that conversation around what's the biggest platform.

Where are the downloads happening from so apple podcast Domino's.

So this is numbers over the last 6-months taking a look at so applewood top 5 iOS and specified apps and what does that mean that means they're absolutely using iOS devices that are using apple Core media library to be able to send the audio to the engineers up not always able to identify those so we see that is unspecified follow behind and Spotify but what we see in the numbers as I was looking back over the months Google podcast and platforms like I had and others are slowly rising in the continent creating platforms like I had where the they making content just for their platform.

You have to get it on their platform only that Google podcasts and assistance or Assistant devices with saying that rise, month-on-month, and that's because people creating more content that snackable and you can easily get to her by just saying hi Google I want to listen to.

Cost of a change from the last 6-months so looking over 6-months the six months before this Wednesday was the most dominant Data download a Podcast as we all know we get busier later on in the week Friday I got work to do or if you're a bit like me from that lunchtime.

It's Friday afternoon drinks Saturday we got family we got kids Sundays a little bit of an optic there, so when creating your contact keep in mind that majority listening.

That's happening from the police.

Having publishers is in the first 4 days of the week and Tuesday during the most dominant Gene The Rising weekly consumption we saw the rise in monthly consumption if I can pay that to a graph from the US we used to be 3 years behind if you track how many Australians were consuming podcast on a regular is compared to the US with 3 years behind 6-months behind the other the other side at another piece of that we have is that podcasting awareness amongst Australians is.

1% and I compared with us which is 77, so I think we're going to see probably the next 12-months Australian consumption per capita surpassed the US and it's in Australia become a leading market for for global consumption per capita for podcasting which is fantastic.

We do need to tipper that with a bit of a bit of real in there and the subscriber numbers these people they come I'm not going to be consuming more podcast all the regular person is everything to me more podcasting.

They once were that subscriber base is still going to stay the same so I think from her podcast creator point of the messages that everyone's been doing forever around subscribing or following continue to be important and represents an opportunity and a challenge the first one is that there are people trying casting overtime so you can get some new followers but for your existing followers.

They go to only have a capacity 4222 engagement subscribe to so much.

I just be mindful that as

See new podcast are actually probably going to make a decision of which ones are going to drop off from so it is a it is an opportunity in a risk and it's it's it's about what we're saying that the ongoing process of Engagement and keeping keeping hope so I think Australian promotion and credit if you've got a fantastic 12-months coming up in the next 12-months the platforms that we ran Spotify I had apple podcast I see them like on Spotify I had listened at app and and publishers having their own apps grow content that is only exclusive exclusive to their platform.

I see them growing they share and downloads in the market and a lot more investment from advertisers and publishers during the Australia podcast anchor over an exciting industry and we're glad to be here and share somebody's figures with you.

So thank you.

MJ micho, thanks to him and to podcast A24 for sharing it with the media podcast you can discover a further 23 hours of handpicked inside and out of the podcast sector just by going to podcast day 24.com.

It's all available on demand £425 in two weeks without Regular Show until then I can only man the producer.

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