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Read this: #146 - TV News Wars, Prison Radio success, Is Strictly Thrifty?

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#146 - TV News Wars, Prison Radio succes…

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Hello and welcome to the media podcast.

I'm only man on Facebook play Payday for UK music publishers, but is it too little too late radio is the darling of the Awards season what needs to be done to tackle disability discrimination in industry and in the movie quiz you'll find out that I'm not the most gifted minute.

It's all to come on today's Media podcast team of Media insiders first up writer producer director Deborah Collins back on the show hello Deborah how are you? I'm very well.

Thank you.

Yes all the best.

It's been basically.

Yeah, you just launching wakey when we last had you on the show which is like a breakfast TV show for your mobile isn't it with an emphasis on improving mental well-being.

I think it's fair to say the mental health of the nation is needed some improving since since then, how is 20-20 play out for you and mental health Education app that helps you get up in the morning when basically everybody stop getting up in the morning and needs loads of help with their mental health.

We've had a fascinating.


We did a study at 12-week study with guy's and St Thomas' on the impact and effectiveness of wakey Nat turned out the way he worked at help people have happier healthier lives which is great and we're now about to go it was launched version 2 of the app that has all kinds of new spangly interactive ways of looking after your mental health on it and extra content in the above and beyond the Breakfast Show and now going.

We're going to be launching a whole load of new shows and so yeah, it's a very exciting time.

It's a shame that it happened during a global pandemic and also like in business terms.

Obviously this year.

We've had the high-profile collapse of queen bee I mean that make you think twice about mobile video model has your model I guess what different for you as it wakes you up rather than something taken your computer, but yeah, I think we had a few issues.

I mean you know they make very much for their own content and was not easy to sell it on and goes all can be so they remember reading I can't remember who was he did a kind of review of quid be saying he seems to be lacking purpose and if there's anything that way she doesn't like its purpose.

So yeah, we're driven quibi sadly was not stalwart and chief content officer of production company something else Mr Steve Ackerman hello Steve

It is that time of the year when all audio production companies like to flirt their reward successes and all the selections they've had in the best of podcast list this year, so gone then here's a minute of their time go tell us what something else is done in them in the apples best of podcast selection.

How did we get here? Which is Claudia Winkleman well-being show and we just had out with David Dimbleby the fault line in Iraq which is really superb if you want a dissection of doesn't look at the actual itself.

It looks the run-up to the to the Warsaw City proud of those but obviously is like David Tennant and out to lunch Jay Rayner and something rhymes with purple of all continue to go from strength to strength.

So yeah all good perfectly next to Steve on my screen is the return of writer and journalist Caroline Crampton hello Caroline the podcast Industries of international newsletter and this week.

I thought you were.

The podcast designed a sleep AIDS so the opposite of whatever is making tell us what you found thing I wrote at first about those apps that you know give you sleep stories sleep podcasts like sleep with me that kind of thing and then more recently I wrote about a new BBC sounds podcast called the sink which is arrotino podcast but actually it's kind of a horror fiction show the producer somebody up to me as the help to sleep take that's out to get you and that's I think I mean a pastiche of an app but itself is filtered through some cultural reference to if you like something like the League of Gentlemen so I think this is that kind of humour well if you're listening to this podcast today to help you sleep good luck with that.

We've got a lot going on supremely energizing off of you this week.

Let's take off.

The shit hot world of 24-Hour TV news we have not entered the timewarp.

It's not the 90s but the new battle is on the cards as a Murdoch back station news you TV look set to beat the match Heights GB news and launch first next year Steve executive both of these networks obviously believe there is a right of centre audience dissolution BBC who will come to their offering are they right social media activity you can see you can see there.

Is there isn't for that for that voice.

You've only got to look at the Covey demonstrations or some of the other and some other things have happened across the past year to see that for a certain type of person there is great Trust amongst what they would describe as the mainstream Media I wouldn't agree but you know you can see there is an audience for it.

So you know if your anti mainstream.

Rupert Murdoch constantly being being able to himself as anti-establishment one of course a billionaire who owns the media all around the world and and can walk into any Prime Minister or president office is he not anti-establishment but ultimately the one can you can says if Rupert Murdoch putting money behind it you know someone who's won the most impressive business men that we've ever seen he's no fall and he clearly feels there's an opportunity there a 24-hour news in my intro Caroline but that's not entirely right.

Is it? No I think it's going to be 24-hour in the sense that some other 24-hour stations are that in the lbs and repeats they'll be some boring of content from other places and I was I think.

Portant aspect of it will be in the same way that we seen x radio another launch from Murdoch I think it will be a funnel towards his other businesses in a times radio is great at selling subscriptions from my head and I think this may well end up being a similar thing similar to What though.

I'm in one of those shilling the sun the sun of the Times other subscription packages.

I guess there's been some talk of bundling, but that's always been an interesting that the sun but also the times and those you imagine there's two audiences are quite distinct Deborah I mean I heard the one of the potential working titles for the evening shows going to be gotcha is obviously a famous Sun headline.

So it seems like that's the kind of audience.

They're going for kind of blue audience and then that would line up with rumours that Rupert Murdoch's been seen wining and dining with Nigel Farage I mean it be the Perfect Host if you were going to do that every evening with me and is available at the moment.

I don't know I mean the more we've been talking to other users who pretty much you know kind of tend to be key workers an hourly paid workers and gig economy all of them told us during lockdown.

Please don't talk about the news were fed up with news.

We don't want to hear the sea were the Corona covid-19 is I've been avoiding news like the plague found it quite depressing so I find it quite shocking at the moment.

There are 22 new potential channels coming when I can barely deal with what we've got at the moment and Twitter I'm not sure whether going to fit in.

They must have a lot of market research to tell them this is a great idea personally can't believe there's enough need out there for it or desire can't receive News UK TV that's no one's favourite TV channel, but I'm sure that's not what the eventual titles going to going to be and I wonder when I think of what news UK

In in terms of obviously Investments they've made into radio and audio and obviously the launch of times radio.

I know what we just been discussing his how this station definitely probably isn't position for the time market, but I would be interested to see whether they try and utilise the sun as a brand in this space you no one would think that you know that seems to be the thinking that's going on a Star to run their brands in a number of different places in so obviously if you're unewstv operation.

I think that's some that's a possibility.

Just just just one of the things.

I was just making about she's not sure if there's demand if you go back in history books the same arguments were made in the US at the launch of fox fox news and you know people were very very dismissive of what fox was going to be about and felt there wasn't any demand and you know depending on your point of view my apologies sadly.

We will be improving Roland and foxes.

You know has ended up being a massive money.

What is a cable TV audience in the States is it which is older? He was interesting about this is it seems to be online the first operation, but it's normally scuse younger.

Do you think Caroline there's enough of that kind of and stream media whatever you call it.

Maybe Softly alright audience.

There's that age in this country and basically you know let's say I don't know 35 250 to be watching this rather than 50p.

I think this is a Facebook audience.

I think if you think how popular these kind of topics this kind of spectrum of politics is on Facebook I think that's the appeal of this and I also think that maybe this is exactly news.

This is like news as edutain moment you might be wanting to avoid sort of proper news we buy called BBC find about how coronavirus is gay, but you might want to tune into something that confirms what you already think about things and I'm just curious about the Murdoch element of this I mean.

Is nearly 90 years old is the first words of Jim Waterson space in the Guardian about this were Rupert Murdoch Rupert Murdoch's forthcoming United news channel daddy daddy da.

Do you think the great man himself is personally involved I mean what has he got to prove you've been selling everything off.

Why would he want to start doing it up again radio point really there's been huge investment from that business into audio and nothing to radio at a time when many other radiogroup struggling when there's been great consolidation in India what I think you have seen as obviously what's been sold off the entertainment B and W been retained and Friday the more our bits around news and information and we all know you use Powerline if you apply the old model in the old model.

It was fine newspaper.

Cos I can give you access maybe the thinking is again looking at the American model looking at how fox obviously of the past 4 years has been.

Influential maybe the thing is well actually the way to do it.

These days is not necessarily through newspapers.

It's through teething radio Facebook is going to be bringing their hair did new service to the UK and a sizable amount of money with it as well Deborah what have they announced? They are doing a deal with mainstream outlets in the UK if they go buying up new stories from some of the biggest media companies in the UK understand why I would have been reading the article that you are doing this.

I don't quite understand.

Do you Caroline Facebook doing it seems like an obvious one I think working with mainstream Media organisations to confirm as a sensor Ford intimacy a sense that Facebook is you know a trustworthy partner in the media rather than

Which is how I think I'm not publishers have perhaps rightly traditionally seen it so I think deals upfront like that helping stay in business rather than seeming like an oppositional move your Facebook is social I mean that is there thing that's what I meant it right and yet this isn't going to be a social news feed this is going to be curated by contractors a bit like Twitter moments or I suppose you know the magazine.

You know they're going to have people sort of independently saying a visa the news sources.

We think you should look at that's not Facebook do like Facebook is where you go for your friends to tell you what to look at if they want to reward the companies that well.

I think Facebook is where you go to your friends looking at offering to telling you what to look at was maybe we're Facebook was I don't necessarily is true now and you're only again have to look at spread of of conspiracy theories and and you know pizza guy in tullamore sort of you know q and on tullamore crackpot things to see the again information and signia information.

Come a key focal point of part of what Facebook does and obviously know the huge swathes of people who only get their news information from a social media source they don't read a newspaper News website or they don't even turn on the TV to watch to watch news in that sense if your Facebook I think this feels like a natural state and of course.

I'm sure I can fit agree with Caroline it's is completely driven.

I'm sure by trying to head off regulation at the past in a you always see this with Facebook as soon as politicians start trying to make noises about they going to make things tougher for Facebook Facebook take something on its head off for the past and both in the US and hear those are the noises that are running at the moment if you wanted to get into the Facebook news feed and we should take the existing United States already.

Doesn't it and has been operating successfully there.

I wonder if you start writing a more rigorously research.

Slightly more intelligent article than the kind of

Right to get clips from people's meds and so Facebook might see this is their contribution to some of the wrong with that they've done in terms of the algorithms.


I think news organizations these days will sadly do anything to get chosen for the front page of whatever I've seen this when I used to run the website for the New Statesman an apple news and the homepage on Samsung phones with a massive driver traffic anything we could do that would appeal to the people who created that in a could do wonders for your SATs that month so yeah, I think it's quite possible that will start doing whatever it is Facebook will prioritise if that turns out to be a more seriously tone bless see movie clickbaiter thing then yeah, I'm sure Facebook will put that in the shareholders report.

Did you see it the New Statesman people then actually becoming regular readers Reuben subscribers as a result of coming through apple news because that thing is that you might get some new readers, but they're not interested in your brand.

They're interested in medline.

Really hard to track to be honest because only part of it happens when your platform you know part of it happens on apples, but that's what we were told the purpose of opting into that was I think we definitely sort writers attracting more fans.

You know we would see them get followers sign up for newsletter that person wrote or something whether it contributed to the study of long-term model of the magazine for patchwork of these kinds of features on Facebook on there now.

It's just kind of exist and of course their huge in their own way is because it's Facebook and it's one of the biggest web services in the world real people in the real world and everything to talk about them.

I'm thinking about the original shows on Facebook watch for example.

I mean there.

There's a tab I can click it.

I've never heard anyone actually talk about it.

No probably one of the biggest features.

I do know people actually use the marketplace.

So there is a kind of like Facebook eBay which people do you use but in the end when it comes to content I think on Facebook it's still going to be the

Craziest headline is going to be the the thing that draws people in and also once you get into doom scrolling.

I think most people just doing scroll on Facebook now you go into one video and the thing that's addictive is constantly being served up new videos one after the other with him.

You know seconds not even minute.

So this is all very nice, but these brands these brands and they can compete with that.

I don't quite see how this is going to become anything good on Facebook particularly interesting comparison Facebook marketplace.

That is something that makes me feel a bit warmer and cuddly afterwards Facebook as a brand because they help me sell for cash that but I got around my house.

I wonder if that's all this is really they just trying the Guardian and you know reach and whoever else I signed up for this you just a few a few shekels to say look you feel a bit better now.

Don't you feel better about people look at your stories on Facebook it does feel like a pity move in a way.

I mean like they don't need to do it.

So if they are doing it for.

That makes a lot of sense, but otherwise all these brands are already advertising on Facebook and spending huge amount of money on there.

So this is yeah, let's see let's is it still there in a year.

OK finally for this talk about Channel 4 they've announced a new 5-year digital first strategy, so it's like America first, but it will last one you're longer have been helpful by the drum.

What caught your eye of all the public aim to switch autumn move in a much more of their revenues away from the traditional terrestrial TV model which clearly make sense.

I mean you know for someone like Channel 4 that's that's that's got to be a concern and I think we've made a similar noise as well.

Was that they were going to they said if I think it was a 50 million fund in terms of investing into my eyes because sadly in the world currently in its that's that's actually pretty small amount amount of money when you think that I think it's only this week Netflix

Announced that they'll spend a billion in the UK over the next I think year or couple of years but certainly you know a billion pound spend coming you can see the context of 50-in is really nice and obviously a lot of TV shows and dinner will be very welcome.

I'm sure by the Producers end up receiving someone that money but in the battle Channel 4 is in which is against these global Giants at it's it's it's a really tough battle.

I think one of the things that I thought that I think is smart is that they seem to be holding it only in that you know something much greater focus on a younger audience.

I'm really trying to play on obviously this of branded built through 34 whichever audience you're going for I think the one thing broadcaster.

Such as Channel 4 have to do now is have a really clear sense of who it is that they're targeting because of the fact that the Netflix has an Amazon Prime of this world can target just anything and everyone.

Isn't there Deborah of the people who actually watch the terrestrial channel that because I want the same people and that's the confusion isn't slave launch this brand purpose which is represent unheard voices challenge with her reinvent entertainment.

I mean exactly the sort of thing you'd expect on of water say they want to do but the truth is if you look at their schedule the TV station is still makes up a lot of their revenue country houses in makeover shows and crafts and that's cos that's what that older audience like how can how do they close that circle I should be doing I'm in the stuff.

So I think there's a lot the fact that the Steph show had I think recorded zero view as one week which is pretty pretty bad in the mix of lockdown, are they really they're not in sync with that kind of like younger audience.

They can't dragon start platform but also not providing what that older audience wants either.

I mean they can't ever really get rid of location location location.

Grand Designs because otherwise I don't know what I'd watched.

This is exactly what they should be doing they should be and it is it is a small amount of money compared to Netflix and you know Converse meant to be going into linear TV very soon, so will be competing with them for that kind of daytime audience, but there's they should be spending money on young talented creative in the UK making content the only young talented creators in the UK could make for people in the UK and really that's Denise and in the end.

I just going to have two maybe they're kind of abandon ship on the channel.

I would imagine but I think this is very exciting is that they are tremendously successful on all4 34 million registered subscribers.

They had a billion streams this year.

How's about you Caroline am I personally don't write the experience of using it and maybe I just goes to show that if you got the content doesn't really matter.

I was just going to say that that's the one thing I come away from all of this thinking about is all of the times have been to watch Bake Off on all 4 and I just get to the same 10 at the same add server to me 10 times.

Cos it gets stuck in a loop on the app and I can't get out of it cos it's an add-on.

You can't cancel it.

Yeah, so I feel like some of them should maybe go on improving that experience if it's all it heading in that direction because that's just not cool.

You have to put it into somebody daddy and that's that's the difficult thing for a platform like Channel 4 Limited income and it's got to be able to invest in some of those areas because sleep as you know I've been saying those where the audiences and now and now headed the other thing seems to be is that they're lining up these priorities.

They're saying they want 10.

Total revenue to come from on advertising sources over the next five years like you said that about 100 million quid and the obvious way to do that is to do what ITV's been saying they're doing which is make more stuff in house, but Channel 4 and the whole raison d'etre is supporting independent production sector so that's a problem as well as it most of what they knew he would actually be easier if they make more of their own stuff and stop supporting indeed, but their 2nd will not necessarily only because obviously anything any show they are funding they will still have a right position in so so they showed as well and cells into the Channel 4 benefits and that's possible, but they don't own it but but ownership obviously comes with its own problems including increasing overheads and ability to augment your difficulty in being able to move quite as quickly you know look at the look at the issues the BBC is Adam BBC Studios have had in terms of try.

Bridal between being in a trying to have the mentality of another independent producer, but really being part of a of a much bigger entity you know those things don't necessarily come hand in hand.

I'm not sure it's necessary.

I won't let you know if it was a magic one then you'd say why aren't students like Netflix making everything in house when obviously they're not either.

They're pretty much everything so let's make the counterpoint and I tried the lifetime of This podcast we've been tracking channel four's attempts to classify politicians by analysing solution where they have Bristol Glasgow Leeds Manchester and some place called London has it made a difference have they communicated the difference that it's made sunny haven't noticed as a viewer.

I think I don't know how much that matters whether it's the back end.

It's the you know where staff allocated where Productions happen, but if they're looking for visible wins.

I don't think they've made one in that regard.

I think it's probably more subtle than that I'm in first of all when you see obviously the relocation some of the citizen and and you know places that leads you know that was a really significant turn off or choosing to relocate their we've seen through the BBC in terms of Salford it does have an impact obviously in terms of eventually you get to appointment instead of the shipping people up from London you are employing people that's got to have an impact eventually on on the viewpoints in creativity that hopefully flow through to the to the screen and I think the regional thing is a slight red herring it.

Was you know something he came from from from from politicians.

I think the much bigger issues and almost London open because you put singles contains in these locations particularly on the cells on the sales front but I just think the bigger issue.

They're all facing is obviously around diversity and inclusion and make.

There's a proper reflection behind the mic or behind the screen and in front of it and this is this does help that to some degree you could argue, but I think I focus on regionality.

It looks like red herring and maybe transmore with a government that's obviously got the leveling up agenda and feels that that's the way that they can win vote rather necessarily Focuses on I think the more important issue of how we do ensure that the content is created completely reflect the Communities that it's that it's created for ok.

We'll have more chat about diversity in media and representation of people Behind Bars after this.

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I like making it to my own brief grateful for Angela Scanlon finds out in thanks a million had Alex Jones joins Richard and Judy on the WHSmith's book club sofa much more maybe they can help you make your next podcast for more information had to rethink now looking back still with me Caroline Deborah and Steve and Caroline it's been a big couple of weeks for prison radio.

It always is that award season but what have they done this time? Well, they the prison radio Association has had some absolutely outstanding results at the audio production awards in particular.

Particularly taking home production company of the year are highly coveted position and getting a few wins and nominations further specific producers and presenters as well.

So yeah, they've done really well, and I think it's been a very Hardy of everybody.

It's been a particularly hard year for people who make content in prisons when you can't go into prisons anymore.

They've had to shift completely to working remotely working with You released from prison as opposed to being able to work with the actual people in prison as I think there be very proud of that and I think the rest of the community was really quite proud of them to a lot of these kinds of the wards.

What is the secret of the prison radio Association because I'm not taking it away from that.

They're obviously brilliant, but it's almost become a cliché like I mean my wife who does not work in audio has sat nav me at numerous Awards ceremonies and predicts everytime that they nominated takeaway in a ways.

Do what do they mean? What is it about the prison radio Association what does it what they do produce brilliantly emote?

Award entries and really well my programs and ultimately I've always found whenever you judge any of these Awards despite some of the criticisms that sometimes come from those you know those who aren't evolve it's actually really rigorous process and people take it really really seriously and offer the respect to the entries that they deserve and therefore I end up winning it is because you really deserve it and what you see with the prison radio entries is they often have an honesty and an emotion that I think particularly and radio maybe less chicken radio is very difficult to do because because so much so much radio music based radio on even on the speech stations there sort of operating within particular straitjackets podcast and you started to see the 3rd of April coming through and the other thing is obviously just always has arranged voices and again arrange a voices that you that you often just don't hear in in other places.

I mean the prisoner experiences.

Unique1 they are great entries and they are always absolutely brilliant to listen to so you mention broadcasting.

I mean to further evidence this trend at the Australian pod the world's a couple of weeks ago.

It was a prison documentary series made by female inmates that one podcast of the Year ear hustle in the states of course was not late for Peabody fascination with what goes on Behind Bars not personally but you know reading all the stories.

I can I completely agree with Steve that the reasons for why content coming out of prison radio prison podcast would be so appealing and so moving is because of the context in which they show they created and the audience for which they were created for so no, it's not something that I'm particularly fascinated with but I can understand why that context would result.

Excellent work a long read about why people of prison podcasts coming on Tuesday give us the highlights.

What's the will it goes back to intimacy basically.

I just been speaking to someone from prison radio Association earlier today for the peace and he reminded me that in UK prisons.

There's no access the internet so for instance during the pandemic.

The only way prisoners could really find out what the tears system with the lock down to your system meant for them was on prison which they listen to through their TVs in their cells.

Just really basic boring stuff that we just Google all the time has this sort of emotive story behind it so yeah.

I kind of intimacy of people being alone in a large group really works well for audio.

Maybe slightly for the rest of us as well more of a sense of kind of big sympathy I guess.

Bristan, taps they used to be and was being fashionable to going to say there but for the grace of God go, I but actually a lot of people with Justin well.

I've never end up in the make.

You know that will never be me it seems to me like a podcast new party responsible for based this means that the more stories you hear if people are incarcerated.

There is The Temptations thing a few wrong decision that could have been met or that kind of Kafka thing of being stuck inside a system that whichever way you turn your stonewalled.

I think people of becoming a bit more aware of that with regards to the benefits system for instance and I think the present is analogous to that really so you have your own decisions a few you know appointments missed at the Jobcentre or whatever and yeah, maybe like me.

Don't you or someone you know Ofcom and published a new report on diversity in the industry and in the TV sector as well.

What did it say what it said that disabled people are underrepresented in TV

It's not really a surprise.

I think representation you know having worked at the BBC I can see that you know Media organisations struggle continue to go to have a good representation across all kinds of different parts of the population of very interesting example.

I mean the BBC every other media company country are the company that have you no elevators access diversity programs you know scrupulously fair interview procedures.

So how are they feeling now? I'm just saying that happens to be my can't make it work then you know you get smaller company would think of this is really a challenge this week saying you know if y Oxbridge guys find it hard to get where they want and media that imagine how I

It's just a highly competitive industry so many people want to work in Radio podcast TV but too many people how many production companies are there and how few places are there to get jobs that a full-time well-paid? It's just a it's so much competition and like all areas of life.

Where does competition the obvious people find it easier to get through a lot of studio 34 in the basement of old buildings that you can't get into very basic stuff like that is a challenge for disabled people and this is moving very slowly all of the interview procedures in the world won't help someone get into the BBC Maida Vale studio if they got to go downstairs, so yeah, it's I think sometimes.

It's easier to put in place funding initiatives and protocols that it is to think about.

An extra Bathrooms and why do doors and things on paper should be simpler but maybe don't get included as much as they should your running a production company what initiatives have you seen that actually help this this this this into the wider question of enforcing change and making sure that it happens at a much quicker pace than it.

Did it has done you know the truth is for the entire industry radio TV all forms of media and there's been lots of initiatives.

There's been lots of good intentions, but there hasn't been enough aggression in how quickly things have changed.

I think Daddy is changing now and I think you can see that I mean just just a day I've noticed how Tim Davies announced the 5-year targets now for you know there's a rigid targets for his 5020 £12.50 2012 in it in terms of 50% female representation 20% black and ethnic and Asian representation and 12.

I think is disabled.

Hope I've got those that's why.

Casinos those things and now happy no one really practical thing worth mentioning is just something last week with a colleague of mine has just started up Derby diocese one of our senior.

He's just launched the disabled people in audio group and he's trying to create a space at the moment just for disabled people to PO22 congregating and share their experiences and what they going through and obviously to start to discuss how they can push more for Greater change and work with broadcasters and companies to effect change to the place to find that group is a Facebook group.

So I'm saying is go on Facebook and type in disabled people in audio and you should you should get there eventually but my understanding is already he's got no sign ups and that's something that he's looking for people not in the UK so I know what this is an international show also for 4 people working in media internationally as well.

Ok and Deborah I mean you're working in the field of mental health or adjacent to that mental health.

You know can be classified as a disability as well can't it in certain circumstances and it's very involved obviously to talk to people that suffer from bad mental health to say think about your concerns about how you can get to work.

You know don't feel like you're suppressed from applying for the job you want but there's not much in the way of support for employers.

I'm just thinking for the point of view of a small production company their choosing between two candidates one of him says I have such and such a mental health condition the other one who doesn't the employer might feel well it going to be easier not to employ the person with the mental health condition anyway.

They've been right and you know there are challenges to supporting an employee who was differently abled in all sorts of ways appreciate you doing this and you have people actually thing what support is there in for employers to help them structure their business around that kind of diversity because that has two.

Conversation to be to be able to cover say periods of time off work and that's what I think is helpful about the kind of conversation around mental health at the moment is how many employers and people in power have openly admitted that own struggles with mental health and also when I was at the Radio 4 not that long ago.

You know we're all being trained in mental health first aid which is just incredible.

I can't even imagine that happening.

Just a couple years ago.

Did that come down to sometimes things as simple as what to say to someone who's experienced in particular episode or going to a particular or is it more complex prevention of Isis if somebody feels that able to talk to you early on then? You're more likely to prevent that crisis, but could result in time off and and somebody really the communication breaking down.

Hear that you can talk about somebody feeling stressed and happy overwhelmed unsupported the only that you can talk about that the more likely you can put the right things into place to stop that escalating into something but you know gonna become a breakdown in a relationship BuzzFeed have bought huffpo from their parent company Verizon with rise and they're getting a on BuzzFeed bored at Steve's going to visit having post separately from BuzzFeed Under-20 heritage of course but also to the struggle to get traction in recent years with Facebook changing algorithms who talked about before I think we can look at history in terms of Media mergers.

You know regardless of platform and see the littered with a lot more failures unfortunately than successes and particularly when you've got two brands, you say that that are that are struggling that maybe have had.

Today's weather you merge two to make one bigger one.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the products still still go to work.

So I've got my doubts really in terms of weather for 4 please like this moment has been and gone in terms of the relevance.

They can have to sort of people and their lies and how they consume information.

I mean Caroline the New York Times list this merger as the fourth significant merger a month name brand digital publishing so they have the combination of Vox and New York magazine then voices acquisition of refinery29 then group nines merger with popsugar A3 happen this year.

Why is there so much of this consolidation going on in this space? I think it has a lot to do with you say the Facebook algorithm change in general the sense that there's a limited number of eyeballs out there and there for you to have a better idea of have a better chance of capturing them.

You need to have as many different facets to your brand as possible and

An easy with do that, just acquire pre-existing one and Delia choir that audience with it and I think that's what we seen.

I think the vice refinery29 one is a really big refinery29 premier brand aimed at millennial women not something you know people that do revise but not in as greater numbers as a referrer NE29 got a bit bloated.

I mean you know they started as kind of agile startups being online only to say haha look at you old world Media with your expensive printing presses and your staff roll.

You know we'll do things a different way and now they've just become American corporations that higher loads and loads of people unhappy buildings than actually companies like the New York Times I've got a very good online offer now that they competing with problem with VC investment really across the board so I think that was partly what was behind spices.

You know bring together with refinery, was you know.

Grow exponentially to give investors back at least 10 times on the investment and so you need to do you know the easiest way to grow is to add your company to company and the company with the other opportunities Brand and advertising revenue so I think that's what's behind these companies feeling need to grow so quickly and needing these partnerships to do that are completely bewildering aren't they I mean is I'm going to read this out.

I had to read it twice to make sure it was true because it just sounds absolutely ridiculous Verizon in 2015 but half pay for 4.4 billion then combined it with acquired not in 2010 but in 2017 for four-and-a-half billion dollars and in 2018 a year later wrote down the value of its media assets by 4.6 billion.

200 million-dollar I mean I don't understand how that's possible to make such a serious error you would have thought someone has lost her job somewhere that strategically it just seems astonishing really the you know what it really suggest I think and I know that you know nothing about the operation, but you would have thought just looking for suggests is an organisation that sort of trying to find a strategy that's applicable for where the world is now.

I'm really struggling with some of the names come up again and again and I don't remember anyone ever having a good experience buying lol or Yahoo Yahoo especially Justin's amazing doesn't it? I mean I mean you know that it was such an ongoing story for such a long time in terms of a failing Brand and yet as you say it kept of bubbling up and being a crime then someone else will give it a go and be a quiet again and and ridiculous amounts been floating around.

People involved are so so sorry, but I suppose it says a wider thing just about where where where media as a whole is now which is the only huge competition that is going on for eyes and ears and it's so many different sources and so what you found his where is you know even 5 years ago.

We were far more sign o' the times of the sort of company is making the sorts of content everything is merging much faster speed now, where where you just because you were traditionally a TV producer you might not be an audio producer as well.

Just because traditional you're a newspaper owner you know you might not be a radio and things are still coming together and I think it's bleeding a number of companies with a questioning what their place in the marketplace is yeah.

I mean audience are being pretty flexible on there as well on that Caroline they're happy to get I mean and you're happy to find the podcast that comes from a newspaper or a blog or an independent or the BBC and justice it on its own merits.

I don't think people really make a distinction at all.


This is actually something that's come up quite a bit in relation to the BBC's offering with audio and its attempts to woo back young people who have left the corporation in favour of the Netflix on Spotify think the BBC is placing an emphasis on that what is a music streaming.

What is a podcast and someone and I'm just not sure that the people try to consume it really bothered trying to distinguish and I think that's how increasing you lot of people can see things the Telegraph want it and audible want it the final destination for that.

Is that you no longer have any sense of brands and putting things out because it could just as equal income for many of them.

You know Bake-Off went from BBC1 to Channel 4 does that I mean.

I think that's always what happened has happened Talent has been posted from one provider for man.

Spider and it's up to those platforms you want to remain at the top to make sure that they get the best Talent or they nurture it from early on like the best thing that the BBC could be doing nurturing young Talent you know let you know from the early as possible get those people in and be making sure that you are nurturing them and that you're not just trying to poach people once they were successful which is a much higher price game house radio show Steve I wasn't sure if you produced certain carefully, that's that's another story for another time the one the one thing I was going to say was and I do I do agree in terms of orders.

Obviously would just search outbreak content.

I think a small number of exceptions to that wear.

Able to build themselves as a brand and become a source of current Michael qualities when you think about HBO or you think about wondering.

I think that you know you know those companies have been able to build themselves to a level where when you see it's an HBO show you think is probably really good because I know what those other HBO shows I've seen the same with with wondering what and what and what they've done as well, but for the majority of companies on platforms.

Yeah, I don't think it matters.


Just one great stories and great content it doesn't matter who's making.

It is just a legendary Media podcast quiz this week.

It is entitled uncanny.

I'm going to impersonate 3 people in the media glare this week.

You will tell me who I'm evoking and what the story is only Ollie Ollie are you sure this is a good idea.

Here we go buzzing with your name.

You know the answer who says I hope my voice comes back in time for the first service I can no longer simply loan affect and a fringe.

There's nobody at rather be with the does a Deborah Winkleman Claudia Winkleman yes who is Ted to take over from Graham Norton on Radio 2 in February good choice bad choice pictures picture you can reschedule Caroline ok here is impersonation number to who is this as with other TV Productions Netflix should be very clear at the Beginning it is just fiction.

Caroline I love your voice is that Gillian Anderson doing that is Oliver dowden ridiculous new story probably of the week about the Crown should have a warning before it's episode saying that it's fiction know something that Oliver dowden the Daily Mail Sandra got very exercise about many did you see the new season of the crown prince Charles is not betrayed very well, so yeah, but that is the story well stolen from Caroline and here is my number 3 who am I the days are over? It'll give you exposure over what exposure come and drop his accent for water we won't get any.

these days they want us to pay for it Caroline Caroline refuse to pay to play it is yes anyone for a bonus point know their name the band that were not taken to play on Strictly It Takes Two

if I tell you will someone say it back.

They were called camera Tara win the quiz well done as an extra point incredible said the payment would have been given had the performance gonna head you weren't surprised by that store it already Deborah but it is kind of shocking isn't it Big Show that it's a shame.

I mean it's pretty found £1 now.

I must belong to at least two WhatsApp groups of women in media talking about all the things they get asked to do for free or cheap.

So this is something now, but unfortunately but unfortunately by my phone unfortunately this is something fortunately people can't really get away with anymore and I need to start thinking about how.

Best taken incentivise people in there in a very Fairway what was it you wanted to say I'm interested in the clarified that the response from the BBC they said they would have been paid but they just haven't mentioned it hasn't come up.

I wouldn't be surprised if just base of my experience as talent and I am doing a quiet switch can't see is that sometimes you're told by producer come on the sofa no money because they've been told they have no money but then someone in the BBC accounts department someone who no-one's ever met then gets in touch with you subsequently as all the rate for this.

Show is this and send you a cheque in the post.

That's still happened morning Steve it sometimes seems that people evening we only shows don't seem to know what the budget of the show is only actually to me.

I mean it does seem extraordinary anybody would be saying.

Play come and do something for free in a particularly when they got an expertise.

I musician and especially you know big or small big or small production when I can't get it you're putting a few favours with a few mates, because you make me a podcast at your bedroom or something but I don't think you with a program of let's go we record making a podcast of your respective bedrooms, but it's been dating show thank you very much congratulations Caroline for winning quiz and thank you to Caroline Crampton to Steve Ackerman and to Deborah Coughlin give your colleagues of insight and analysis this Christmas by telling me more about our show there is a handy link in our show notes which you can use to share it even if I never heard podcast before do it now.

I can only man the media podcast is a pee and production produced this week by Matt Hill and pennybelle until next time.

what the hell I was just doing a bit of online shopping your trousers and we share that cash with you so thinking of shopping online TopCashback

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