Read this: #141 - Sir Harold Evans; Radio 1 Dance; Apple News Today; Edinburgh TV Festival 2020

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Hello and welcome back to a brand new series of the media podcast.

I'm only man will a new streaming service make the BBC the dance can audio versions of print articles help save the world's biggest newspapers and his arts journalism on its last legs plus the big themes from the First School Edinburgh TV festival and in the media quiz we celebrate the winners of the pandemic the first major industry award show since the start of a pandemic.

It's all to come in today.

Well.

I hope you are well.

I'm good thanks for asking and welcome to our Michaelmas term it's going to be a weird year for the industry.

That's worth.

Sounds to help us navigate those choppy Waters that's welcome.

I guess first up for metabroadcast and now head of Communications at ITN Lisa Campbell's back on the show hello Lisa please ITN 65th anniversary this week, which I believe is the blue sapphire.

It is indeed.

Yes, you celebrating with my with crowd at broadcast.

We've got a microsite running which is freely available for everyone to check out the some fantastic stuff on there actually we've got a timeline start with the 50s and 60s First News broadcast actually had the first female news broadcaster, and there's also an interview with her where Barbara Barbara Mandell and she is she's brilliant.

You know she's sort of saying back in those days.

We weren't allowed to do Wars and earthquakes.

We had to just do cookery.

So it's quite an insight as you know the moon landings which part of the ITN source of blue the competition at the water that somebody Cathy Newman takes us behind the scenes on her very famous interview with Max Mosley could have got him to admit about his racist pamphlets and talks about him being in the green room with him and it's just it's really fascinating actually that sort of story and then we got next week so talking about his interview with Idi Amin I won't spoil the punchline, but essentially he ends up on an aeroplane on his private jet with him.

Idi Amin falls asleep and Jon Snow spots.

He's gone so yes Read All About It next week lots of a folder media and the guy who got at Matt on Twitter Matt Deegan hello mate.

You got to be on the last show of the last series and the first show of the series wonder what that means and your availability.

Been waiting here.

So what have you been up to? So we've just recording the second series of nappy days, which is the team mum UK podcast for MTV and with my British podcast Awards pass on you have to take a note for the Australian podcast Awards just been doing work on that as well.

Been at work on I guess learning some lessons from your lockdown ceremony by right.

How are you planning a live event? No so Australia has colours mix lockdown at the moment.

So it's gonna be another virtual ceremony in Australia what they've been doing in the last 4 years and having a bit in the UK to do a ceremony in November it's very exciting as well.

Really interesting get involved in the Australian podcast sector and talking to a lot of the operators and producers and seeing whether a difference is a celebrities with here and what we can all blown from and last but not least we welcome back we found our production house gold Wala it's my favourite Faraz Faraz Osman hello that you've been tweeting about the new Xbox is that a Gambit to get a free one and if not, what is the significance you think of this moment in video gaming? I'm a bit of a Nerf video games industry.

I think there's a fascinating space that you know we've done a few programming bits and pieces Around video games nothing to discolored like to do but I think that space is really really interesting and it's just going to completely dominate popular Colchester was the end of the year until the biggest product launches that will probably have the biggest our spend probably and then for the next.

Previous few years both launching that similar sort of time and I think it is a really interesting space in INTECH and popular culture and entertainment yeah nuts and like the thing I was treating about is Microsoft buying it as the studios for an obscene amount of money.

I can't even remember like 1400 million some other guys are behind Classics like Doom and more stuff like Skyrim which have been complete powerhouses in in The Videogame 44 while it was a bit of a surprise move what's interesting is it with what makes of the doing if they have a cervical games pass which is effectively the Netflix for games and so there's going to be joining that server send and the looming war between Playstation and Xbox that's their kind of that's their firing shot for it's going to be really fascinating way of how we can see Media it's we've revolutionize music.

BBC revolutionize with with on-demand and Microsoft trying to do the same video games and it's just a case of are the old guys going to win with the PlayStation model or is it going to be this new wave of a new type of media content with the Xbox in the industry as a whole is the one that hasn't at of it because of coronavirus.

Isn't it? Because you know on mic audio products for computers or you know theatre.

That's life events.

You know the videogame something always done at home and it's something you can produce from lots of people yeah, and then from what I can gather hadn't and and see it's it's it's just growing exponentially because it was being sucking their homes and it's the highest form of quality entertainment content that you can't hear you don't go to Cinemas play video game you know the only place that place to play video game is at home and and that's what it will be stuck for a little while so so yeah, it's nice player video game.

Launch Batman Arkham City and I was invited along for Preston for you and I sat in an IMAX cinema and was given control to be Batman and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing exactly when they say that you to make you feel better and also to try and make you feel like you're a really good game and like obviously you know what you're doing.

So and I was just at pulling and crashing into buildings anyway before we start the show is it still hasn't started yet folks.

We should probably mention Harry Evans passing a veteran British American journalist the Harold Evans inspiration was Alesha in Britain's journalism absolutely I mean I remember doing my journalism training course and you get your reading list and it's all the the boring spelling for journalist and everything and then you don't you talk about Harold Evans and Reid has spoken just you know you think so inspiring so much that the one managed.

You know from his investigation into the drug thalidomide and the impact that has you know so many investigations, but we we know we were so in all of him and it's you know interesting working at ATM now when you talk to the journalist about who inspires them and who you know who led them into their career Harold Evans nearly always mentioned you know he's absolutely you know godlike status for journalists, and he was a really big Society figure with his wife Tina brown and in magazines and publishing as well and yet the thing people are remembering info on his death really seems to be the seat of the truth.

Yeah and perhaps that's because that's what we're all really craving at the moment.

You know where we're in a world of declining trust in and fake news, you know people.

Tobit information or there's there's so many so much miss information you never seen all the disturbing stories about people drinking bleach.

There's now will the anti vaxxers and you know with think there's definitely just a desperate climber for you know the media that we can trust journalist that we can just people don't proper in-depth investigations that that we can rely on and I will quite nostalgic for those times when you had publications and journalist like that and they just was not the Welsh social media.

I suppose you know causing all the trouble that it's causing right ok, let's get on with the proper agenda now.

We're going to start with some radio news this week with the launch of a new dance music streaming service from the BBC Matt Willis in on this one.

Scary on BBC sounds only so it's not on Broadcast it's going to take dance programming from Radio 1 but also from the wider BBC and sort of remix it into a radio station.

It's quite a long time ago and then it went quite particularly pre lockdown and then it just announced it recently and today Ofcom approved.

It's to be able to be to launch and launching first second week in October turn on Broadcast Davey in one of his first speech is said you're the BBC's not going to do any new linear broadcasting launching new radio stations on most platforms unless they were to take away something and replace it with something so I think this is this is the first linear Channel 4 BBC

I don't imagine it'll be the last and I know that the BBC and BBC Radio has seen what the clash of Texas on with spin-off channels you can Absolute 80s absolute 90s bit of would like a bit of that's like the races in BBC grey.

There is also review you know for the BBC where they've been tasked by the way my others about you reaching youth audiences.

Will do things differently they have to launch some new services to achieve those aims and I guess it's one of those interests test wasn't needed but understandably not everybody in commercial radio is happy about that.

Yeah.

I don't I don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

I think that they're like most music.

There are two forms of music that are really poppy commercial stuff that KISS FM and and various radio stations do really really well, but my senses that when it comes to dance music a little bit like 6 Music and guitar music.

Get there is a really burgeoning independent seen lots of new artist that breakthrough in that space that the Radio 1 have championed and I'm very very early on in my career.

That's that's why I started working in the section about your island and you can just tell the support of that world and an exploding kind of was was really helped create the industry and so I kind of feel a good thing.

I think that really want to go really good pedigree and heritage in this face particularly when it comes to British dance music and and I can see the value in this.

I think I agree that it doesn't need to be a linear rail station if it was that would be more problematic but beyond that I think that is this just helps most of the BBC sounds what you mean about kisses more commercial and has a Titan list and hot dancers more retro standby radiocentre said you know we're pissed off about this because it's the kind of thing that commercial radio could do.

I think it's the Sorting really does do well.

That's kiss fresh Kisstory Kiss capital Xtra there's quite a few new entrance to doing dance music.

I don't kiss is Bisto specialist weekends evenings, so I can understand why they grumpy I think the prom with BBC expansions are they do huge amount of work internally to get it to the point where it launches fully formed but that always ends up being a surprise to everybody else they they they get annoyed annoyed because they've been working on it for 18 months and this first episode about it.

I'm a bit surprised that maybe they didn't try and do something perhaps a little bit more public service first, so if I was launching Radio 1 spin-off channels maybe something around BBC introducing might have been a good idea.

I mean l what radio are really needs as its lifeblood is young audience will this do the trick for then? Well? I do think broadcasters have to go to where the audiences are and they have constantly changing their output to cater for them and they're BBC is about universal appeal and so whether you think dance music is not is not something the BBC should be doing because the markets doing it.

Is you know again.

It's up argument of should the BBC only do what the market is failing to do you know I don't think it should I think the BBC does have to appeal to a broad range of tastes and you know if your on people but they have to attract young people because they will die death of the highest.

You know if you think they back in the day and I come home from school and listen to Steve Wright in the afternoon with with friends and we talked about that nowadays.

You know you are more likely to.

About selling sunset all the latest TiK ToK dance craze you know they are definitely tuning out of mainstream programming so you have to respond Absolute 80s as a comparison was quite revealing one I think because all those portfolio stations were created by commercial brands that they can say to advertisers look this many whatever 1834 engaging with the absolute brand which is bullocks.

Really isn't in the sentence Absolute Radio the main radio station is the one that the Advertiser will be thinking of when that using me to target and if Radio 1 do the same kind of smoking mirrors isn't it acceptable for a commercial company to do but if the BBC says look at the young audience Radio 1 is pulling in and really what I mean is Live Lounge on YouTube and Radio 1 on BBC sounds not the same as the main channel you could argue that it doesn't really matter bums on seats for the BBC a bums on seats with are listening to a stream on an iPhone on BBC sounds all there.

Listening on fm2 to Radio 1 in the morning.

I think I'm the commercial radio side the main reason that the spin-off launch was provide more commercial impacts for advertisers to advertise is generally buying volume rather than kind of Nisha audience is generally for commercial radio show continues to get old for example.

Is it acceptable to dance and I would I give it for you all of their output across all of their brands products portfolio.

They would need all of them to remain York and turning Radio 1 into ready 1/2.

I don't matter going to do that, but I will want them to do that.

They can't get her eyes public service or getaways used the channel still in keep mainstream services that become competitive to commercial radio shouldn't we wouldn't want to see that would want to see that.

I don't say that.

I'm not entirely convinced her ready one dance.

Particularly younger audience Radio 1 does already I think actually that station will attract people that are in the midst of early to mid to late thirties that kind of did well part of that house scene and try and reduce or Radio 1 and what pizza was doing and Seb Fontaine and and and that kind of Hay Day of Ibiza Chillout heart is etc.

That's that's what I think that station and I'll be surprised if it's going to attract a particularly younger demographic.

I think if they want to do that, then they should be looking to more towards what one extras doing and and building more content of the back of that I think that it's so it's not the dance part of Radio 1 that attract the audience is continuously a comedy on the celebrity and Pop Culture side of it 1Xtra there's new headers station there as well Matt farriner me know about him.

So he's putting on that floor in that bill did quite a while.

I working on marketing across Radio 1 and 1 Extra he's been involved in quite a lot.

Which campaigns for for the BBC and has been involved in some of the podcast That 1Xtra have done to soak an appointment coming from the marketing size obviously the big persons who that was Tim Davie when he was head of BBC Marketing and ended up running BBC Radio obviously he's back as well.

So it is an interesting appointment from my point of view what I seen in working with you and radio stations the key thing to drive consumption is awareness.

I know people who maybe and hers extra haven't sampled 1Xtra yeah.

It's a big task now to get any audiences and especially young audiences to consume something you so actually putting a marketing person in charge of that station at the point where you know one extras growth has been good along with this radio station as maybe plateaued perhaps a good time to get a marketeer and trying out forward.

Mr jam on of the big Talents on Radio 1 already, won dance Radio 1Xtra is off.

Where do you reckon he's going to throw the inception of 1Xtra rent? He is a real store in that space, but I think he's not the finest broadcasters in the UK so I think it's really interesting to see where he is.

Going to go get what I mean.

Look Charlie Sloth a dot at both lesson went to apple apple.

Just rebranded their stations from beach 12 being apple music One and have nots couple of other stations as well, so that's a possibility.

My sense is it jam is more than just a presenter and radio presenter.

I think that he is industry Titan and my hope is a heel can't get behind the scenes in may be moved to a label and Andrew champion new music in the way that he's been so passionate about for a while.

I think it personally I think it would be a shame if another presenter is.

From the BBC to summer like apple on Spotify I think that's not a necessary positive thing for for us to continue to build up Talent on on airing in the UK and then leave them to digital weird.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the audiences is there in the same way or certainly not as interactive so my hope is he's gonna reemerge as it a label and Infants British music moving forward.

That's why we like you for us.

It's the Bold predictions and she sticking with where are you up to? Speak with BBC Talent potentially going elsewhere Lisa another story from BBC Radio of the small Radio 4.

I guess is that some of the corporation crisis teams national radio journalist are now being asked to retrain and effectively reapply for their jobs as multi-platform report is it is to streamline Newsroom so you're talking about.

The people who make those two beautiful packages that here on p.m.

Hugh Sykes and Becky Milligan is it realistic to expect them to reach Jewellers digital and TV reporters is that the right thing to ask them? Yeah? I mean I have to say I was a bit sad when I saw this because I thought you know that those radio voices.

Are you know some of them so iconic and defined British history and lots of the library times.

We had from you know from walls and you know even start from the pandemic.

You know it's it feels like it's a very specialist skill and you know you're starting from a completely different place when you're creating radios when you're creating television and of course you know your skills are transferable as a journalist, but I think I don't know if they're necessary abandoning these skills it I think that you know we're looking at the talking about podcast.

Radio for ages you know this is exactly the thing that people are really engaging with now is audio and then the BBC goes and decides actually we're gonna we're going to scrap that so it seems a bit of a strange move in the current climate, but then I guess Matt it's a case of levelling it out because this has been happening for a while in local museums sure I think I think there will always be out like sewer specialists and I assumed that they will still be audio specialist in the BBC but I think to say generally if your report it was a lot of it is coming from the BBC on the last people to press conferences and her interview if you are at the heart of a story suddenly you get no 20 my reason 8 of them from the BBC that you can't run out an operation that way so I think it's more connected to that then.

It's we want to get rid of a specially formulated packages to think about those huge News programmes on Radio 4.

Millions of people listening and then I watch it the one that was brilliant actually because that was crying when she said that I didn't realise that because it's actually just an audio version of the TV package.

I'm a different kind of weird insist people make them for both things when so popular that we have to get to the point where there is duplication of of work and I don't think there's any doubt that we need to be more efficient with resource.

He's going to do what where I'm not entirely sure that this is the solution but I think that we do need to start trying things out and making sure that you know we are getting at duplication across the board and figuring out how we can just drive costs down, but also you know when content is moving a Sony different spaces at the same time if you've got somebody that is able to package up something that.

The podcast and existing video and existing online and get a wider audience in different mediums to the same piece of content that's that I would argue is generally a good thing.

I think that need to make sure that those are the reasons for doing it and it's not just the cost-cutting exercise cause because that will never work.

It's got to be looking at the audience and figuring out how the audience is assuming things in lots of different ways and the integrity of the stories good as it can be fantastic skill to be able to tell stories without pictures and that you know absolutely thumbs up some of those flagship programmes that you've been talking about and I think you know what you sometimes here in the newsrooms in in TV is you know there are no pictures with that therefore the stories dropped.

There's so much.

There is actually a brilliant story but you just don't have the visual material to sustain it.

I think that that's the concern for me and if those stories are still going to be told in that way.

The moment because some publishers are going to be having the same conversation about will they print articles can be turned into video it seems we'll talk about what the BBC in the New York Times to do in just a moment in this Apple first.

They've just launched their own daily news podcast news today.

It's a lot of people whatever they do is great more and more a lot of what they do is load of old crap and I'm not saying this is a crap product but the thinking behind it seems a little bit wobbly so really this is connected to Apple news plus the new subscription service and it's a robot presenter.

I'll put together and catch up of material.

That's on Apple news.

Plus.

It's basically apple journalists using material from other journalists to make a podcast.

Rephrase apple journalists is a little bit complex for infinite loop to get their heads around the more confusing is a publisher and I've done a deal to put my page containing apple news plus.

I'm already a bit dubious about because the revenue splits and what they're saying I'm getting you know not great but hey it's OK because I get exposure and maybe that's good for growing audience at the sound audio product and I'm probably going into audio as well as a publisher weather using my content to salop subscriptions to the service which makes my location disaggregated and probably generating less revenue.

I'm not entirely sure it's been well Thought Out or is good for kind of anyone.

There's no real still reporting in there and there's a lot of daily news podcast out there of course.

It's yes, that is right.

It is well mate, but it's just all a bit confused also listening to it is hard.

Play with different devices and I didn't appear on iPads or it appeared on iPhones and it's just seems half-cocked ok and do the big publishers that I was talking about Faraz see the New York Times the Washington Post they're all now creating some kind audio descriptions of their news stories.

Just is that the next big thing or is that just is that just lockdown but I think that my I think a lot of this has been through New York Times I think the success of the daily and has really made everybody rethink how they can get their print journalism and a by The Brand to to be as strong as it can be I think the daily is an incredible Stockton actually I become a subscriber to the New York Times because of the quality of the daily is it has been that customer journey for me and I think that other people trying to replicate that along the way it makes sense that like long.

Content translate well to audio particularly Tulisa's point but like you know if your make if you write a written something without pictures and translating it to audio the different discipline there, but it's got a close relationship and TV programmes insert into radio shows and I I think that there is value in doing this.

I think the key to this though is IP that a lot of public should have seen that if you do it fast it can start getting traction and then it can create sales in a different way.

That's better than in the kind of daily chip shop paper model that has been no signal in newspaper publishing for a while.

So if you can kind of get an audience to your audio products and then spit it out into it into a bigger story that could end up with you having you know a film deal or a book day or a TV series which can be incredibly lucrative for somebody's partners, so I think it's baby steps in in that direction to come and make sure that you own the story and much bigger way and I'm kind of I'm coming here for it.

I feel like.

Engage audiences with your with your content and your journalism and in different platforms and it can be high quality and an expanded Brand and I think that's a positive thing I guess it's good news is it's listening the publishers might be trying to get behind my work and distributes them in new ways Lisa you can't say the same for arts and Culture journalist at the moment.

We've just lost Q Magazine the Guardian guide may be inevitable given culture going on but the pretty sad state at the moment of that end of the sex.

Isn't it? Really is I think the New York Times I think it'd be described as a way in which long-form journalism can fit better into your life.

You know that you can because people want to exercise and talk and do things what I mean for me.

Yeah.

I think the whole point of long-form journalism.

Is it need your time and attention to sit down with a big Sunday supplement or a glossy magazine and to engage with?

Depth article and give your full attention.

I don't want to be doing star jumps while I'm talking and taking some emails at the same time.

It's just you no call me old-fashioned, but I like multitasking but when it comes to long-form journalism myself in the Guardian make the wrong decision on that specific case of of Acting weekend supplement was the Saturday edition for the weekend.

It's fantastic about the TV previews you know really felt like it was it was Spot On for the culture.

What's coming up brilliant? I know I do think that that's sorely missed and I think it's it's really hard all the cooking supplements.

You know you really feel that yeah, there's it feels just a cost-cutting move really and as you say when you can get so much on.

News online you want something very different at the weekends and I think those guys were really well.

I think it's very sad.

You know I look recipes online now.

I drop my phone without moaning think I don't know I like looking at pretty pictures of food and I think that's value for magazine.

You know I really do love the guy that I grew up with it as a student, but I think actually these days.

You don't look at TV listings in the same way and I would have I think again it's about in about two innovating and trying to find you you ways of delivering that information.

I would really think that guy podcast my dad do incredibly well.

I don't think we have enough good popular culture podcast and then there is a real audience for that, but I think it's a shame but I think that these magazines are I have two switches magazines.

I really pulled about the envelopes these days and that's just a reality unfortunately so it's about being able to I really will be back with more me to use after this.

Hello, I'm Claudia from the sensemaker podcast where we tell one story everyday to make sense of the world made by tortoise Media this week.

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We talk to the fantastic broadcaster and entrepreneur Laura Jackson all about.

The Host fantastically listen now on your favourite podcast app book Media podcast Lisa Matt Emperor's still with me and the country's biggest TV conference was obviously completely virtual this year was talking about the Edinburgh TV festival of course and historian David olusoga keynote mactaggart lecture about diversity Lisa and last time we spoke about BMB festival you're running thing.

How did you feel for the team that ring charger this year having to put together a virtual festival I did really feel for them actually.

I think a fantastic job content there apart from work really well, and you know of course people missed the networking that you know I think that's it.

That's a great part of Edinburgh people you know like to be there at 2 in the morning pitching there.

Just drinking so yeah, I think I think we're all really craving a bit of human contact and things aren't we at the moment but at least you know it was a lot of people did come together for the McTaggart particularly.

There was no great reaction on social media it really felt like they made her a real sort of appointments of you moment for that's for that Alexa you know it's interesting that the McTaggart address has typically been an Elder statesman and in fact when I was at the festival we had and she was the first black female to to deliver the Alexa and an actually was very similar themes.

You know she described being a misfit and an outside is Barry Hearn journey into the industry challenging the production community to reexamine their attitudes to race and class and put people before profits and similarly you know David talks about.

The sectors marginalization of people of colour and have been patronized and you know I think both of those lectures were incredibly hard hitting very uncomfortable the majority of the white British TV industry and Anna very very personal and you know on on the back of lives matter if you know I think everyone really hope that this is a really significant Turning Point that finally we will see change was cutting out there as well.

We see change because he said himself as you know this was a conversation that was being had in the industry.

Not just with Michaela Cole did Herbert I get a couple years ago, but I think he said 12 years ago.

There was a session at Edinburgh which was will we ever have a black TV channel controller and they basically have the same session this year and it's saying will we be having the same conversation about diversity of 30.

Nothing really changes yeah, it was it was a difficult listen.

I mean like first on the festival itself you I'm I massively missed it.

I think that Lisa's absolutely right but the festival part of the joy the festival is seeing people that you speak to you when you know have a chance to actually hang out with diamond you no talk about the courier your ass in the industry the Iranians and hearing on the special obviously I'm doing and doing that as well, but like genuinely I like icredit some of the success of my career to to that festival.

It's an opportunity to actually be human eyes does a person in an industry that does a very good job.

Do you think you went and I think that kind of not having it in person is was one of the biggest things are I I missed during during this lockdown period in a bit of fantastic job, but it's say it is absolutely true that know that that space work best when you are there in person when it comes to the speech itself.

I mean I was going through a very very difficult time again around being a diverse face within this industry.

Play minutes before that speech went we went on live on our on YouTube you it made me cry because of the difficulties of dealing with at the time with some broadcasters or April custom particular and some things that he saying was being dead in much more eloquently than I was trying to deal with at the time and that's what it down at you.

I mean we've just picked out.

What's the thing that I mean? It's a torrent of you know I can't believe we're still here.

I can't be having this conversation.

There's a lot of you know it is either difficult so if it's just a complete failure of the industry if there's a bit of gaslighting going on and it's just going to continue to be this way because it's people want to support status Quo and and that kind of sense that you know when you're dealing with those sort of shoes and you're having to unpack those those feelings about being outside and try and get you to take you seriously your original Instinct is that you're on.

Don't like no one there.

Is there to back you no one there is a support you you've got to do this yourself you I have to set up company bootstraps by myself because you know people can give me a chance and I still think I had a value in this world to have to do it on my own and when you start your own companies and you have these conversations that are incredibly frustrating that people say that they want to do something different on make a change and they disappoint you again and again and again and you're doing it.

You know as mazhar and Company within lockdown.

You just feel like you're on your own.

So then when you turn on a speech and you hear somebody that stature saying those things as well.

You do get the sense of well actually at least I'm not the only person that feeling this at least I'm not the only person that has having these experiences and I hope he says if enough of Us you know speak out and and you know stand up for for what we believe in what you think is right then maybe change will happen and I sent some difficult emails purely off the back of.

Because I was if he's telling me to do it and other people saying it then maybe it isn't just me moaning and the corner maybe we are and enough collective voices can make some change and you should have said something so personal to you mate, but I wonder whether simply because a lot of people in medium and about to lose their jobs, but actually when companies are being restructured again employment practices and actually going because this is in there the topic Lily has come up a lot as was pointed out and I've been at home been in discussions or companies weird messages.

I got out about what they going to do nothing really happens.

I get the genuinely get the feeling that it's heading home harder now, but the proof will be in the pudding rent is very easy to be committed to things and you have to see what what changes in commissioning and output and an attitude encouraging is that we are we are seeing a lot more content.

Relating to Black lives matter and black history you know I think we have to just feel really optimistic about that.

I mean I know it's Channel 4 News a young black reporter Aisha turtle and she she pitched an idea about doing a an insect explainer that they but they do on Channel 4 news about the history of the black guys movement because she still lots of incorrect information online about how black lives matter started and so they research that for weeks and then it came up with this really high quality in-depth reports on the issue and that no that pops up on YouTube music because it's trusted journalism, so you know people like her able to tell those stories and have so many different ways of getting it out now and in the same way Charlene white was really inspired ITV news presenter.

You were talking about her own experiences and listening to David speech and all of the conversations that we're going on and said what actually you know all adults.

About this we don't talk to children.

So then she has an idea about doing a children's programme confronting racism.

So you know that we children in the studio.

They going to be doing animating real-life experiences that the children have and talking about it going to have a counsellor in the studio.

They going to have young musicians that mean it's a real mix of Uno s discussion, but I think it's just really encouraging that people have been brave enough to say ok.

We need to talk about it and we need to talk about it was children very early on already on cyberbass, aren't they and I mean maybe ITV News audio slightly less so but when you look at the the real mainstream dealing with this topic and then the highest profile example about at the moment is the Got Talent dance routine inspired by black lives matter that had over €24,000 complains.

It's a hot-button issue this at the moment.

Not everyone is comfortable with it being mainstream entertainment basically that discussion.

That's true.

I think it's very encouraging but they Ofcom didn't upholders those complaints and it takes a lot of debate and of course you know we've seen how polarized the debate is and we've seen you know on the back of brexit.

Just had divided the nation is and this is another example you know but it doesn't mean to say that people should should stop producing that kind of this content and being brave and well.

It's not about being brave actually just about representing the nation.

There's nothing on that specific mean diversity are a dance troupe and they were doing something artistic and I thought it was great to be stood by it but at the same time you know do people complaining that essentially re-enacting the death of a victim of police brutality you know in an entertainment family show.

Is something visual Comber the trigger warning you know did they have a point is that something that should just be completely brushed away because people feel but it's not the right time to voice those concerns.

I think about this is if you can play some more options oxygen latest I mean complaint for nonsense the majority people that complain didn't even watch that they kind of were complaining of the back of an article that they read and you know whipped into a frenzy as Ofcom generally seems to be these days where you don't watch the content you just kind of jump on the bandwagon of kind of going I don't believe in that cause and I don't think I should be down my throat even though I never actually saw in the first it kind of a little bit silly when it comes to the actual complaint itself.

I think that what the real story of this is ITV and ITV putting themselves in pole position as the ASDA broadcasted is championing diversity both the dance Tryfan and the actual cause itself and and it's it's been a real I think I've been a real Testament to how they handle their I think that appointment to see the boarding that.

New director of diversities is a really positive thing they have they know and they have been vocal and clear that they need to make some changes as a broadcaster with both internally and with the continental thing out there and I think by doing the work.

They did around reclaimed Stephen Lawrence drama to somebody black voices they put on the channel to now this debate and how they've been put their neck out there understood by and they are proud of it is what we what people want to see and I think that's it really really positive thing and I think that is easy to get kind of swept up in the numbers of people that complaint off Carmen's you know how tricky the dance was and should have been on our side or they think that kind of nonsense really because they are a part of other much bigger story which is you know.

What is the audience going to look like in in the future and who were going to be the programme makers and and the people that voice their story.

Moving forwards and I think that at the moment based and what's the ITV have done they seem to be in a really good position to capitalise on that the response to the complaint of this is kind of need to rebook complaints complaint have to be considered first like is this worthy of a complaint and the complaint is investigated, but this didn't know this failed.

Omnibus is not worthy of complaint but also what was quite good for Ofcom which has got very slow with responding to think he's over last 83 4-months them actually getting out with a response within a week was relatively quick and hopefully helps cut off some of the some of the discussion.

I did not help is the Ofcom announce how many complaints they get about things fairly early on and then that just send up a bat signal to a certain group of people to follow.

Stream telly for a moment former BBC One bus Charlotte has been named chief content officer at the BBC now to the really smart role for her.

I think that she is one of the the real.

She is she is a content hadn't actually I think that was one of the question marks over her application for the DJ Roland and if she's got enough commercial experience political experience etc.

No one can come anywhere close to her with her experience when it comes to to making content come to life and inclusion of audiences that has been created and I think the question is is a is this role that the BBC needed or is a roll and I think that that's that's what we're gonna see moving forward was a role is created to keep Charlotte into the in the building because she is such asset to BBC or director-general, director-general.

Respond and and ago and it can't be seen as a consolation prize, but it's difficult not to it to be aware that she didn't get that you opened and now this your face suddenly appeared in the narrative very much looks in that direction, but I think it is also in it.

Also links to everything else that's going on in the industry.

You know that the fact that we are aware of the head of contents at places on Netflix 17 apple probably go to hell content now and you know a lot of these big big Media technology brands have these kind of demigods of of programming content that the BBC kind of lights because it's in is weird kind of Here the channel when he has a channel here to Channel bringing it all together under one banner roof of actually output and content is probably quite a Smart Move by yeah, but watch that have no Lisa because you know it as we discussed.

Don't have to go to Reading episode journalism losing their jobs produces losing their jobs.

Tell him he's getting paid less.

We'll talk about that at the moment and yet.

There's more executive.

It doesn't look great.

No, I think there might be something in for as a theory as to why this happened.

I think I think Davy you know it's been an interesting start for him actually.

I think he's come out you know fighting really you know that his sort of focusing on these four distinct areas and impartiality high impact of extracting more from online efforts in building commercial income.

I think I think you should say that I can see that Lisa's reading this for priorities office.

I know I'd be impressed.

I need any patio slogans.

I feel I think you know it was it was tricky with journalists in the beginning because of course you know one of the first things is cracking down on the impartiality of side of things on social media and you know it's very.

Talk to police journalist son to OL2 sensor them so you can't have an opinion and know that obviously riled a lot of people and but you know if there is a fine line to try and authoritative trusted journalist.

You do have to be impartial you do I think have to be very careful about about how you can touch yourself online and it should really be the same as conduct yourself for now in a news report and you know but the reality question is is so huge for the BBC at the moment.

I mean they really are under pressure from the government know who potentially wants to scrap the licence fee so you know he's right to prioritise on that he has to you know they really are in the spotlight politically quite hard to disagree with what he was saying wasn't it matter what people were complaining about what he didn't say I guess sure I mean the BBC discussed a number of times on the forecast.

Radio rock and a hard place almost every aspect of what they do is that the sort of stuck in the middle and I think Tony Hall did leave a few fires for Tiverton to put out.

I thought Tony with throws himself on a few of them before he left but those things like Gary Lineker been paid what he's paid whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing politically for the BBC it's not a good thing and someone should have just gone actually that's the thing that comes up every time we can fix that a lot.

I think the social media is taking a 400g take up.

I mean I know you still on over £1000000, but I was surprised to see that actually won't you that is it is a good thing but it's still a large amount of money for a weekly show it actually doesn't particularly rates on the network and if you were starting from scratch again probably be.

Thing to do I think there are a number of things like that the BBC I don't think the social media side as well.

I was part of that which team has got into but he said he's the kind of clear the Barnacles off the yeah, they got enough trouble with budget cuts and government attacks and things like that.

They're only a certain number of fronts that the BBC can battle and briefly speaking friend of the show Jane Garvey has announced her departure from Woman's Hour that's following Jenni Murray although apparently Jane handed her resignation in before the Andy Murray did you getting the gossip from her at some point when she comes back on the show hopefully next episode but anyway, what did you make that? What do you think of Emma Barnett is the replacement? I'm a big fan of Jane and I love her with whiskey, Glover as well.

I did read one article which I found you know quite depressing.

Suggesting you know old fuddy-duddy feminist off ago.

You know make way you know I actually think that's really quite unfair.

I think I think older women have been treated really quite unfairly by by the media industry and as soon as you know you're sent it off a lot more earlier in your career than a lot of men are and I think as you know she was also quite downbeat sort of saying that you know in all the time that she's been doing it on changing and nothing is getting better for women just feels really depressing.

I hope that Emma Barnett comes in and you know put the release of more positive start on this and really sort of you know as she did with her Telegraph highlighting issues women face sing and championing them as well and yeah, you know I guess we have to move on but I'm glad that James

I can see and also she's doing my work on the BBC as well as it's a so it's not the end of time come on and we'll find out she's always brilliant.

I'd love Jane Garvey to be on the Today programme.

I think should be absolutely brilliant addition to that and would you give it some interesting personality as well as doing doing the news? I think Emma is a great Talent and a talent was probably having a bit by being on that slot on 5 Live and Piper first song radio for will be will be good for her before having your dad gig and the Newsnight stuff.

She does something it's quite important place in Port BBC quickly talk about a new charity which promises to fund the public interest journalism through donations on top of this the public interest news Foundation

This so I think that we've the the crisis in local news has caused a real problem and anything that kind of plugs that gap of of local news that we discussed earlier about magazine shutting down.

I think that the issue around local journalism is even more terrifying and it is a real is it a real lost to me alone and and so there's some anything that can fix that if you were I welcome it.

I'm not entirely sure that like it seems like we're creating an almost and another public service publicly-funded model and that has problems when it's only funded by certain individuals like you know when there is a universal sleep like the BBC it's not beholden to any particular voice or major donor or anything like that, so that's that's always problematic.

So I'll be interested to see how this shakes down from from from from expected, but I think as least as mentioned earlier in This podcast.

I will issue around the public purpose journalism compared to clickbait Eastern station is journalism that has really muddy the the pool of discourse in in the world so anything that can be done to kind of correct that is is a good thing.

I'm just a little bit sceptical about the amount impact something like this can have it is kind of an American model in Italy so that's been founded by Jonathan heawood who's behind the pressure regulator impress it looking for donations for the big tech companies in philanthropist American model which they doing that because they don't have I don't have an organisation has got Trust yeah exactly and I think it's is quite ironic.

Isn't it that you've got we were just talking about Harold Evans and now you are we saying that to do the kind of public interest news that he did it now needs to be charity.

I mean it's quite shocking when you think about it like that really.

You know I think this should be.

You know properly funded properly supported very important for our democracy for you know the health of the nation.

I mean you know people could kill themselves, but you know what they read about covert you know if it needs charitable status isn't isn't great.

You know I mean there's lots of other things that have been looked at whether there's no tax breaks that is really really challenging for publishers.

I think the model in Australia is really interesting where they're trying to make it mandatory that publishers are paid by Facebook and Google you know I'd like that.

There are ways that the market can solve this as opposed to journalism having to be charity giving donations to already and you're talking about grants of £3,000 money to the likes of five pillars and the ferry and gal-dem those organisations for that already struggling to get money in with the lack of advertising.

Something different to what the BBC doesn't no one else is giving the money is a good thing and startups.

I think there is an interesting question about isn't deserves charity funding they do as well, but it has to be an economic model that supports me and the it seems to be lacking.

I don't think it's going seeing a lot.

It's coming out of America is the sort of revival of email newsletters with substack platform for funding and you touch journalism and individuals and small operators and getting Direct funding from consumers over certain topics and if you go to the subs that website you can look at the top performing newsletters and anish quite differently shears and I think Direct funding from consumers.

Taxi there is just enough time to squeeze in Isle legendary Media quiz the 72nd Emmy Awards took place last week the first major TV awards show held since it began.

So I'm going to ask you 5 questions about the night's winners and losers or you have to do is get the correct answer before your opponent's you buzzing with your name and you know the answers of you will say Matt you're say Matt and Lizzie your say ready.

Let's go which broadcaster won the most awards on the night taking home 30 trophies and Lisa HBO it was HBO which made wins for best drama series in the form of succession and best limited series in the form of what for 1/2 bonus points are the question again so happy I got appointment with the best supporting a

Drama prize going to Billy credit for the morning show Apple TV Apple TV on TV thank you very much and a disappointing result obviously for them considering.

I was one of the card into that is the question for you.

How many wins did Netflix score with a record 106 combinations? I will give it to the closest gas 335.

Yeah anyone else wanted that 19 days ago on that's actually closest but I mean I really feel like your eyes had the balls.

They're just went for it.

Overall only two during the televised Awards including prices for ozark Julia Garner for Supporting Actress in a drama and unorthodox is Maria Schrader for directing in a limited series so we got one at the moment.

I believe so exciting, isn't it?

How many awards did Canadian comedy schitt's Creek take home Lisa Lisa 7 yes, well done including best actor in a comedy series Eugene Levy best actress for Catherine are a Best Supporting Actress for Annie Murphy who made history by becoming the youngest person had the best drama Actress award 4oz.in yada for euphoria correct.

She's 24 for her role as a drug addict in hbos euphoria, also tribute bands only the second black woman to ever win in that category, but that has just frustrated because we don't have joined when is informal Farage well done great.

We have my for today.

My thanks I guess Lisa Campbell Matt Deakin and 4 oz ozma and if you like what we're up to hear on the media podcast and you keep making a show them to visit the media podcast.com / donate and selected amount keeps going all year round and if you make a donation even a small one you could have a future episode.

Dedicated to you catch up with a previous episodes and get new ones as soon as they're released by subscribing for free viral website the media podcast.com the producer Rebecca Drysdale sherry and the media podcast PPM production hello, I'm Jessie Ware from table Manners the podcast now here with my mum died and we have a special bonus episode of table manners coming to you sponsored by Sainsbury's difference autumn edition Range and check it out to the fantastic broadcaster and entrepreneur Laura Jackson all about how to host fantastically listen now on.

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